a wider back???

[mdgkmg]

i problably seem annoying but i'd rather ask the few questions i have than take a guess at em myself. my back is quite thick it just ain't so wide. what are good excersises to add width to the back?

[pumpster]

-Chins or pullups and/or pulldowns would be no. 1. For pulldowns to be comparable to chins/pullups, use heavy weight and *do not* lean backwards while pulling down. It's ok to cheat to get the weight moving, but keep the back straight, stay seated straight up not leaning back.

-Pullovers



Best back development includes at least 1 exercise from each food group, your choice of exercise from each:

-Pullups/pulldowns

-Pullovers

-Rows

[slaveboy1980]

you forgot deadlifts

[pumpster]

you forgot deadlifts

No i didn't. They're not particularly necessary, especially if doing other fundamentals like squats. Can do hyper-extensions for high reps, or deads for high reps, no need to go heavy and risk injury with heavy deads! Plus deads are a lower back move, nothing to do with a wider back.

[haider]

No i didn't. They're not particularly necessary, especially if doing other fundamentals like squats. Cant also hyper-extensions. Either of those is far less risky re: potential injury. Plus deads are a lower back move, nothing to do with a wider back.

OMG HOW COULD U FORGET COMPOUND MOVEMENT LIKE DEADS THAT HITS EVERY PART OF YOUR BODY FULLY AND EQUALLY?


Deadlifts for big biceps!! 



On a serious note, I completley agree with what pumpster has mentioned in this thread, though I would like to hear more about the style of pullovers he prefers.

[pumpster]

On a serious note, I completley agree with what pumpster has mentioned in this thread, though I would like to hear more about the style of pullovers he prefers.

The best are machine pullovers on a good machine, because (1) there's constant tension and (2) the other muscles indirectly involved using free weights are taken out of the equation.

If you don't have access to a machine pullover, the two best alternatives in order of effectiveness:

1/ Connect ab straps to either (1) a chin bar or (2) a pulley. On the chin bar, just pull up using the elbows. Attached to a high pulley, pull down using elbows, while seated. Using a low or medium height pulley, lie on a bench and pull in similar fashion. Very effective, very similar to machine pullovers.

2/ Standard pullovers, but (1) using a low or medium height pulley while lying down, and using a triangle or rope cable attachment, (2) high pulley while seated using triangle or rope cable attachment, or (3) using free weights, both hands around the end of one dumbbell or using a hammer bar, lying on a decline.

[The Squadfather]

it always makes me laugh when guys chime in with the whole deadlifts crap for building width, how on earth are deads going to build width? like Pumpster said they're unnecesary for width, do chins or pulldowns and pullovers, deads will build some thickness in the muscles around the spine and some trap thickness but not much width.

[JPM]

Of course we all know that DL's will build a massive, thick and WIDE back if the potential and body structure for a extra WIDE and thick back is there. And we all also know doing pullovers, pull downs, chins, etc will not build an extra Wide and thick back if the potential and body structure is not present. We can always improve to our own highest genetic advantage, but we again are limited to what we were born with.

Those converted ab straps work best when used on a sitting floor pulley machine. There are real lat/chin straps out there that were designed for better elbow placement for chins and pulley work. The ab straps are a a poor second choice with regards to lat work. Not even close to machine pullovers. Nautilus machines are still one of the better pullover type machine, with it's three stage cam action. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Those converted ab straps work best when used on a sitting floor pulley machine. There are real lat/chin straps out there that were designed for better elbow placement for chins and pulley work. The ab straps are a a poor second choice with regards to lat work. Not even close to machine pullovers. Nautilus machines are still one of the better pullover type machine, with it's three stage cam action. Good Luck.

Standard ab straps work beautifully. Similar feel to machine pullovers, including those i've done on the classic pullover machine, the earlier Nautilus pullover. In fact, in some ways they're better in that the ROM isn't fixed as it is on machines.

 "Real" lat straps are a custom thing, twice the price and are basically ab straps. Plus those specialized straps are very uncommon, rarely if ever available in gyms, so the idea's moot. Standard ab straps hit the lats very very well.

http://www.maxcontraction.com/straps.htm

[JPM]

The Pumpster is incorrect. Of course, wishing for thing to be true is not the best avenue to take with regards to serious training. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

JPM desperate once again to add something that hasn't already been said, is suggesting something very very similar to ab straps that is obscure, almost entirely unavailable at gyms and that is twice the cost, when something like ab straps are ubiquitous/ common and accessible at gyms. This is (another) bald, failed attempt at one-upsmanship from someone with nothing original to add himself. Sadly, it's a childish, predictable trend by now.

Here are the straps that are marketed as "lat" straps, at twice the price. Impossible to find at a gym & virtually identical to ab straps. They would love to find more suckers customers like JPM who claim there's a difference:
http://www.maxcontraction.com/straps.htm

[slaveboy1980]

No i didn't. They're not particularly necessary, especially if doing other fundamentals like squats. Can do hyper-extensions for high reps, or deads for high reps, no need to go heavy and risk injury with heavy deads! Plus deads are a lower back move, nothing to do with a wider back.

your talking out of your ass....deads put more width on my back than any other movement. and i know lots of people who say the same.


and please you dont need to write an essay as an answer.

as for cumfather: do what you want, but i know what has worked for me and thats enough for me.

[pumpster]

your talking out of your ass....deads put more width on my back than any other movement. and i know lots of people who say the same.


and please you dont need to write an essay as an answer.

as for cumfather: do what you want, but i know what has worked for me and thats enough for me.

If deads put more size on than any other movement, it shows that you were doing shit with the rest of your back work. Learn what to do here, and you'll be less of a "slave" to your preconceptions.

Do some heavy deads for me next workout and post when you can from the hospital.

[slaveboy1980]

If deads put more size on than any other movement, it shows that you were doing shit with the rest of your back work. Learn what to do here, and you'll be less of a "slave" to your preconceptions.

thank you. you was correct and i was wrong. deads suck. they just add mass to the trapz and lower back. very dangerous movement. mdgkmg, my advice to you must be to do deadlifts.

[pumpster]

thank you. you was correct and i was wrong. deads suck. they just add mass to the trapz and lower back. very dangerous movement. mdgkmg, my advice to you must be to do deadlifts.

Deads are ok but the cost-benefit is low relative to other back exercises. If they have to be done use high reps with moderate weight, high-rep weighted hypers or rely on lower back benefits from squats.

[slaveboy1980]

Cost-benefit of deads is low relative to other back exercises. If they have to be done use high reps, moderate weight, use high-rep hypers or rely on lower back stimulation from squats.

first of all i didnt say you gotta use maximal poundages in my post, i just said that  deadlifts do add width to the back, also i recommend doing the deadlifts "bodybuilding style" ..like dorian does in his movie.

[pumpster]

first of all i didnt say you gotta use maximal poundages in my post, i just said that  deadlifts do add width to the back, also i recommend doing the deadlifts "bodybuilding style" ..like dorian does in his movie.

Now you've elaborated on what was an unclear and very general, not to mention hostile, initial post.

Deads are fine, but nothing you've said so far disproves the idea that the same or better can be achieved by other means.

[slaveboy1980]

Now you've elaborated on what was an unclear and very general, not to mention hostile, initial post.

Deads are fine, but nothing you've said so far disproves the idea that the same or better can be achieved by other means.

well im not trying to prove anything just said (in my initial post in this thread) that you forgot deadlifts from your original list as it does add width to the back. also nothing you written proves anything either. its what happens in the gym that counts.

[mesmorph78]

mmm
chins.... lots of them...
.. and finish your workout with .. 4 sets of machine pullovers which i find hits the lats more than dumbell pullocers which i do on chest day....
also stretch your lats a la culter  between ever set you do on back day

[pumpster]

well im not trying to prove anything just said (in my initial post in this thread) that you forgot deadlifts from your original list as it does add width to the back. also nothing you written proves anything either. its what happens in the gym that counts.

I smell GED-i already said that i deliberately left deads out, do you have trouble reading? And you're right, everything i and others have said is "meaningless", because you're obsessed with deads.

[haider]

The best are machine pullovers on a good machine, because (1) there's constant tension and (2) the other muscles indirectly involved using free weights are taken out of the equation.

If you don't have access to a machine pullover, the two best alternatives in order of effectiveness:

1/ Connect ab straps to either (1) a chin bar or (2) a pulley. On the chin bar, just pull up using the elbows. Attached to a high pulley, pull down using elbows, while seated. Using a low or medium height pulley, lie on a bench and pull in similar fashion. Very effective, very similar to machine pullovers.

2/ Standard pullovers, but (1) using a low or medium height pulley while lying down, and using a triangle or rope cable attachment, (2) high pulley while seated using triangle or rope cable attachment, or (3) using free weights, both hands around the end of one dumbbell or using a hammer bar, lying on a decline.

Thanks for the lengthy reply, I'll try out some of these. I'm especially keen on trying the pulley station alternative and the ab strap pullovers.

The ab strap variation reminded me of another exercise that I would like to add to this list....they're called Lat Shrugs.

The exercise is performed in the same position as the Ab Strap Pullover except the ROM is much shorter. When in that position, let the shoulders stretch, and then get back up to the same position using a shrugging motion of the shoulders. This exercise can also be performed using a lat pulldown bar.

I first heard of this exercise through Atrainer, a person who posts on the bodybuilding.com boards. A well respected member who has some good advice to give and definitely knows his shit very well.

Here is a better description of the exercise:

Originally Posted by ATrainer :
Sorry, I actually had written a description, but it got blanked, and I didn't have the time to write it again.

Hook the ab straps securely on a lat bar. Slide into the straps with them up against your armpits. Grab the straps with your hands, making sure your upper arm is parallel to the floor (to insure the straps are comfortably even on your tricep.) lide into the lat station seat, with your hips tight against the thigh restraint, and your knees under your feet (to insure you don't slide out of the seat.

To perform the movement, you allow your shoulders to elevate up to your ears. That is a stretch. Now shrug your shoulders down. The movement is exactly opposite a trap shrug. Don't pull down with your elbows or hands. Just shrug downward with your armpit. As you near the bottom, push your chest the opposite direction toward the bar. That will reward you with a tighter lat squeeze than you've probably felt before. At least that is what 99% of the people I show this to say.

By excluding the weaker biceps, and anchoring the resistance at the lat attachment, you will be able to effectively isolate the powerful lats. You should be able to use over 40% more resistance than a lat pull-down. The results of this exercise when performed properly are quickly noticeable. I've put good 'V's on many older female clients with this one.

Here are pics of the motion being performed on a dip stand, though to me it looks more like the pullover motion u describe and not so much a Lat shrugging motion.

[pumpster]

.

Here is a better description of the exercise:
Here are pics of the motion being performed on a dip stand, though to me it looks more like the pullover motion u describe and not so much a Lat shrugging motion.

Looks like it would be effective and worth trying, an isolation move similarly intense as pullovers but with the arms travelling down by the sides of the body vs. with the arms & elbows pointing forward while pulling down in pullovers.

Given the bodyweight and leverage, would have to be well warmed-up and careful to do this slowly so as to avoid injury but very good if done under control i'll bet. There was actually a Nautilus machine that used that highly effective motion.

[pumpster]

Here's a 70s Nautilus machine with a similar ROM to the dips shown above. It's similar but different to pullovers. Both exercises isolate the lats in ways that most compound lat exercises don't.

[slaveboy1980]

I smell GED-i already said that i deliberately left deads out, do you have trouble reading? And you're right, everything i and others have said is "meaningless", because you're obsessed with deads.

lol yeah i think deadlifts should be on the list as it does add width, but its not like you cant do several things at the same time dohhhhh   

[tab1]

pull ups and pull downs, use straps and keep hands open, isolate and contract the lats