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Author Topic: The Calves Thread: the mtwain protocol for growth and more  (Read 44256 times)
Max_Rep
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« on: June 06, 2007, 09:29:43 AM »

Any views on this? Is it just a case of genetics? Or do you think its possible to dramatically increase their size like with other bodyparts? Didnt arnold add 2 inches to his in one year? What do you think?

Check out this thread. mtwain gained something like 3 inches on his calves in over year after he had failed to gain on them for years and years. The thread gets into great detail on how he did it.

http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php?topic=13948.0
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 09:36:56 AM »

I read somewhere that the Calves are the one bodypart that has the least nerves (apparently the nose has more nerves than the calves) so it is hard to stimulate them correctly.
Like I said it's just another theory.

On the other hand If I think of myself, yes the calves grow slow, but so are my biceps who always need extra attention, if I on the other hand look at my back traps and lats I can nearly see some size change every 3-4 Month.

its true

use Vince Taylors technique...after each set he messages them for a minute to get the blood flowing

give it a try
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 10:43:35 AM »

the most effective program for me was training calves 2 on 1 off. i did a super heavy low rep (6-10) workout of 10-12 sets and max weight. next day a light workout for 6-8 very high reps (25-30). the pump and contractions on the second day were unreal. one day off and do it again.
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 10:52:10 AM »

genetics, its either you got em or you dont..

end of thread


yep,my dad went to the gym with me once,the next day everybody was asking me what he does for calves and that was his first time to ever step foot into a gym.i also have big calves and i only work them out maybe 2 times a year.

so if you do not already have good calves you never will Undecided

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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 12:09:59 PM »

Check out this thread. mtwain gained something like 3 inches on his calves in over year after he had failed to gain on them for years and years. The thread gets into great detail on how he did it.

http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php?topic=13948.0
Can somebody post those pictures here?

I can't register there and i'd like to see them.

Thx
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 01:29:01 PM »

Can somebody post those pictures here?
I can't register there and i'd like to see them.

Thx
They won't allow new users to register on ironage.
Somebody please download that picture (first one) and upload it here.

I want to see those sweet calf pictures   Grin
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 02:12:21 PM »

its true

use Vince Taylors technique...after each set he messages them for a minute to get the blood flowing

give it a try

What kind of messgae?  Like a text message?
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 04:07:12 PM »

Its not a myth that fat people have big calves, the heavier they get, the more calves respond to the weight, because they have to hold the weight of a pig, walking around.



I have also weak calves, alot of people forget to train calves, i used to train them once every 2 weeks,because they didnt grow from 8 sets. I realized that calves are a strange bodypart that need different approach then the other bodyparts. I started training them 3 times a week, with a total of 1500 reps a week, starting with heavy weight, to lighter weight, with no more then 10 seconds resting between sets, thats the key, to keep them burning. Ive been doing this for some weeks now and i have trouble walking the streets. Ive been dieting, for months now and am in calorie-deficit, so i dont know really have they grown. but they re much harder, like rocks now. IF YOU HAVE WEAK CALVES, THEN YOU WILL NEED TO WORK THEM 10 TIMES HARDER THAN THE FORTUNED, BUT YOU CAN OUTGROW THEM IF YOU STICK WITH THIS IM SURE.

i think a lot of pro's like johnnie jackson, dont put enough effort in calf-training, they do 10 sets of 10 reps a week and thats it.  dont blame it on the genetics. you will have monster calves if you stick with this routine for a couple of years.


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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 04:12:49 PM »

Train them every day with very high reps. You can improve cavs, but if they're high then they'll stay that way.
no you can change the insertion points by getting calf implants training them DC style.
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Max_Rep
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 05:44:31 PM »

What kind of messgae? 

A happy ending!  Grin
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 06:12:25 PM »


Basically it's like this, your calves and legs are the most used bodyparts of any you have.  You walk and work them with every step you take.  THis is why for "most" you have to do crazy calf workouts to get growth, like 3 different excersise's with drop sets, double or triple sets.  Rest pause's, things like this.  Do one movement and then drop to bodyweight raises for like 50 reps.  You have to do crazy things to get them to grow. 


Ya, they get a lot of daily work, therefore subjecting them to more severe trauma's sometimes necessary.

However if you DO work em seriously, i don't see why they shouldn't respond like anything else. In fact sometimes moreso because the exercise options are limited, direct movements that are intense on the muscle.
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 06:14:00 PM »

i agree...Its like all the pros you see with small calves and forearms...After all, they are PROS, so i dont think they lack this muscles just because they are lazy or things like that...genetics really are the most important thing in these 2 muscle groups for what it seems...

Don't make too many assumptions. Arnold supposedly didn't have anything special then went above and beyond to address it. You can't be sure that every pro went to that extent to find out for sure that the "genetics" couldn't be fixed. It's entirely possible that some pros still neglect certain areas relative to others, even when they do work em.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 06:17:08 PM »

Aside from insertions and genetic issues (having calves or not, is not a genetic problem- it's a cop out!), calves are not hard to grow.

Agreed; the issue might be work ethic and/or trying different approaches more than anything, given that the exercises are direct and work the muscle hard. Let's face it we have no idea whether every pro works calves as hard as other areas, or has done everything possible to bring them up.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 06:21:31 PM »

genetics i harldy work mine and im 16 years old so idk?


* Jun06_005.jpg (6.13 KB, 160x120 - viewed 9464 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2007, 03:05:34 AM »

Check out this thread. mtwain gained something like 3 inches on his calves in over year after he had failed to gain on them for years and years. The thread gets into great detail on how he did it.

http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php?topic=13948.0

What's interesting to me is the "stretching" aspect of training calves.
I've heard it several times already.

This guy's training method emphasises it as well. In DC training this is stressed as well and a lot of people have good results with it on calves (i believe Alexxx here as well).

http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php?topic=13948.0
Max_rep, could you download that picture on the first page and upload it here? (They aren't allowing new accounts on ironage, so i cant see it.)

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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2007, 01:16:10 AM »

Here's the pic:

I started using this method a few months back and ive put an inch on my calves since last time i measured them.  When done properly its one of the most painful things ever, but fuck it feels good when the set is over.
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2007, 02:41:54 AM »

Here's the pic:

I started using this method a few months back and ive put an inch on my calves since last time i measured them.  When done properly its one of the most painful things ever, but fuck it feels good when the set is over.
Thx for the pic.

Holy fuck, that's 16,5 ? That pic looks absurd. I have approx the same height as him (6'3) and mine are 15" (i know, they SUCK, but i've only just started training them). Mine look only half as big as that. What a difference 2 inches make.

I've started training that way as well, because i think i have similar calves as him. The insertions are good, but no "natural" size. During regular sports i don't seem to use my calves at all. Like when climbing stairs, my quads get tired but my calves don't feel anything. My dad on the other hand has monster calves from doing nothing.

Yesterday i trained calves that way and now i they're sore as fuck. I think he's right about the fact that the first set is the most important one. I did a couple of "heavy" sets, after the first set the feeling was insane, but it's hard to get that after a second or third set.
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2007, 03:06:36 AM »

Thx for the pic.

Holy fuck, that's 16,5 ? That pic looks absurd. I have approx the same height as him (6'3) and mine are 15" (i know, they SUCK, but i've only just started training them). Mine look only half as big as that. What a difference 2 inches make.

I've started training that way as well, because i think i have similar calves as him. The insertions are good, but no "natural" size. During regular sports i don't seem to use my calves at all. Like when climbing stairs, my quads get tired but my calves don't feel anything. My dad on the other hand has monster calves from doing nothing.

Yesterday i trained calves that way and now i they're sore as fuck. I think he's right about the fact that the first set is the most important one. I did a couple of "heavy" sets, after the first set the feeling was insane, but it's hard to get that after a second or third set.


Yea his calves do look fucken crazy.  Im 6'1 and calves are 16" atm, with 9" ankles but i need to get my calves alot bigger for them to look anywhere near that impressive from the front.  Right now im trying to focus mainly on my inner calves to get that diamond shape look he's got.
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2007, 04:56:52 AM »

Here are all the posts on that page from Ironage:


I wrote this long post on the Mentzer thread about how I was able to transform my calves after twenty years of fruitless training using every conceivable combination with various calf machines using just the one-legged calf raise that Jones said was perfect enough and why he never developed a calf machine.

Anyway, I didn't want the post to go to waste because it took me so long to write and might give some practical credibility to Jones' and HIT by an ordinary guy who had 13 7/8 inch calves until his mid thirties. I can email you a pic because I can't attach it here. I just got my first digital camera last week and have been photographing everything. I have a pic of my calves on my dsktop but it won't attach here. I think it exceeds the limit. The pic is of normal size but uses 1MB of space whereas the limit here is only 110KB.


Anyway here's the post that didn't make the locked thread  deadline:


Quote from: Max_Rep on August 07, 2006, 03:05:12 pm
Okay dude I'll try them. Do you hold the dumbell in the same hand as the leg you're training or the opposite hand?

Actually, to this day I can't do one strict rep with just my meager bodyweight of 195-200lbs so dumbells have never been necessary. I would do them at home with this huge dictionary that's about 8 inches thick. I put it between a doorway and use the frame edges to both balance and pull myself up for force reps and then push myself down (like doing an over head press) for negatives. I could write a book on all the variations but you really got to make them hurt. I'd just do one or two sets for each leg but each set would take almost five minutes. A typical set would start out with just the typical full range movement. All the way down but do a prestretch (as you slowly lower, just controlled not any of this super slow stuff, just before the full stretch you kind of do a bounce before coming back up. This is similar to throwing you hips out first before following with your arms when throwing a baseball. It's suppose to activate more fibers.) Then you do the whole force reps thing before you have to start pulling up your whole body but then push down against the top of the door frame for the negatives. When you can't control the downward portion of the movement you get to rest. Which means you do burns at the end. Just keep bouncing up and down at the bottom trying not to cry while psyching yourself up for the next rep. It's kind of rest pause except the rest part is the burns. So I would do positive failure, forced reps, negatives (pushing against the door frame) then maybe ten burns before I explode back up which  requires an assisted forced rep and then pushing back down for a negative and then repeat. I'd try to get about 10 of these burn/rest pause reps. Sometimes I couldn't do any more burns but would just stay in that stretched position wimpering like a girly-girl (not even a girl-man) before exploding back up. I was in the privacy of my own home so I didn't have to worry about how insane I looked. And I was free to say, "F**k, f**k, f**k, as I was in the stretching portion. And it's not just about doing forced reps, negatives, burns... you really have to make a concerted volitional effort. To take my mind off the pain of the burns I would use it to psyche myself up so I could explode for the rest pause reps. I looked at it as sort of when you hyper ventilate before extreme exertion. My hyper ventilation would be the burns. Burn, burn, burn, up and down, up and down, and then BOOM! explode to the top like your life depended on it. Forget about form at this point. Your muscles are too weak and exhausted to exceed tensile strength.

The thing is that the whole reason I started doing this was because I just gave up on calves. I wasn't going to waste my time at the gym doing them. I would just do a couple of one-legged sets at home just to keep tone and conditioning. It's only when I started to notice some change that it inspired me to take it more seriously. I first noticed veins before I started to measure them and found that they grew.

Don't be afraid to use your other feet for balance and to help you push up for forced reps and steady yourself for negatives. Eighty per cent of the time I 'd do just one set each because it just took so much out of me and since I didn't think I could duplicate that level of intensity for the next set I figure why bother.

Right now I just piddle with the seated calf machine at the gym and do one leg raises on the stairs leading to the stretching room at the 24HR on Crenshaw/PCH. I just do 15 reps for each leg and leave it at that. I don't train my calves with that intensity anymore because I don't want them to grow anymore because they're a bit out of porportion and people comment of them regularly. I can't tell you how odd it is to say that especially since I use to be so self-conscious of how skinny they were before. I measure them at 13 7/8 inches.

Now if I can only figure out a practical way to work with that type of intensity for the rest of my body.


Are you saying that with those monsters you can't do a one legged calf raise with you bodyweight?   I must be confused here or the sentence is off.  I would think after 3 inches of growth your strength would be through the roof compared to when they were under 14 inches.

Actually, that calf on the right in the picture looks like you stole it from Arnold.


I mean that I can't lock out fully, i.e., the full contracted position where you feel squeeze. I'm talking maybe the last quarter or even eighth of an inch. I certainly got stronger because I always kept track of reps and always strived for progression. When I first started I could only do about 5 strict reps without help. This surprised me because I would use the stack of the standing calf machine. But for some reason I could never get that full contraction when you are up on your toes like a ballerina. I had to help myself.

As I mentioned in a previous post I'm a bit under 6'2" and weigh 195-200lbs. I compete (Jiu-Jitsu) at 187.

I would train them twice a week. One set for each leg sometimes two (maybe twenty percent of the time). I would do toes slightly out one day and toes slightly in the other. Remember, the only reason I started training this way was because I decided to just give up on calves because if I couldn't make any improvement and after 20 years it was never going to happen. I did the one legged raise because Jones' said it was the perfect movement for calves and there was nothing he could do to improve upon it.  Hence, he developed no calf machines. Also, I could do it at home at my convenience and not take away from valuable gym time.

Having work on machines my whole life I was surprised at the difference bodyweight raises were. It did seem perfect. When I would go to the gym and do one leg raises on the standing calf it just wasn't the same. I don't know why. Anyway, I started to take it more seriously when I noticed a difference. I don't know how long it took because I really didn't pay much attention. I was just doing it for tone and conditioning and the feeling that even if a muscle doesn't respond you still should exercise it. I just remember once putting on my shoes and noticing a vein I never saw before. Im like, "What's the dealio-oh?" I then rummaged through my place to find a measuring tape and found that they grew almost a 1/4 inch.

If I get a chance I try to post some more things I did as I progressed. It's been a while since I've "bombed" them, at least two-three years, so I've forgotten a lot. But because of this thread some of the stuff are starting to come back. I think this might be helpful because nobody can say I had good genes for calves (13 7/8 inches after 20 years of training), or steroids (look at all the pros with bad calves) or implants (they're too bulgy and uneven) or synthol (ouch! plus you can see veins and  it doesn't look like a balloon.)

Again, measurement wise they're really not that big.  It's an illusion because of my skinny long ankles. A friend of mine use to say my calves were bigger than his but his measure 18 1/2 inches. Looked at alone they seem big but when you compare with someone else then it becomes obvious that though they appear more developed, size wise they're not that big.
 

Because so many factors are considered it's hard to tell if a certain variation, style or technique makes much of difference or not. One thing I started doing simply because I gave up on any hope of making progress (I figured, like Sisyphus, since I spent so much effort accomplishing nothing I decided that I'll devote a minimal amount of effort to accomplish the same thing -- namely nothing) was to start doing calves bare foot. After all, why bother "suiting up"  with shoes for something that now became a low priority. This gave me a noticeable difference in both the feel and application. One thing was that by kind of curling my toes it gave me more of a feeling of spreading out my calves outward instead of just the typical up and down contraction. This really made a difference doing burns. I remember Arnold once said that when standing on stage with his back to the audience he would try to grip the floor with his toes and spread his calves apart. Try to just stand on a level surface with both feet on the ground and then try to put most of the weight on one foot and grip the floor. Try to raise yourself but don't go into a full calf raise. Just raise yourself so that your heel is barely off the floor. Grip the floor with your toes and kind of play with the tension on your calves. Spread your toes as far apart as possible and really grip the floor and spread your calf apart. Hopefully you'll feel that sweet spot.

This really helped when doing the burns. Don't just mindlessly bounce up and down but try to grip the book, block, stair-step or whatever your standing on with your toes and spread your calves apart and keep the tension on as it burns.
 
 
 
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2007, 08:18:25 PM »

aside from doing standing and seated calf raises in the gym ....well i do superfast reps as hard as i can till it burns, rest till it doesnt and repeat until ive reached 100 reps with each angle, toes pointed in, straight, and toes out...

then i do one legged calf raised at work with the ball of my foot balanced on the bar of a dumbell, and a dumbell in the hand of the leg im raising.  using the other hand to keep balance, i do slow reps holding for a 2 count at the top of the range of motion and squeezing, then back down and up again.  Make sure not to pause and rest at the bottom, just keep the motion slow and smooth.

seems to work for me. people have told me i have freakish mutant calves.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2007, 02:36:08 AM »

It's now 4 days later and my calves are still sore, next time i'm gonna do one set and then hopefully i'll be able to train twice a week. Work my way up from there.

aside from doing standing and seated calf raises in the gym ....well i do superfast reps as hard as i can till it burns, rest till it doesnt and repeat until ive reached 100 reps with each angle, toes pointed in, straight, and toes out...

then i do one legged calf raised at work with the ball of my foot balanced on the bar of a dumbell, and a dumbell in the hand of the leg im raising.  using the other hand to keep balance, i do slow reps holding for a 2 count at the top of the range of motion and squeezing, then back down and up again.  Make sure not to pause and rest at the bottom, just keep the motion slow and smooth.

seems to work for me. people have told me i have freakish mutant calves.
Do you have good calf genetics?
If so, they'll probably respond to anything.

For people like me (bad calf genetics for size, but no "high calves"), it's usefull to hear experiences from people with the same problem and how they managed to overcome it.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2007, 07:20:17 AM »

genetics, its either you got em or you dont..

end of thread



partially true.  Genetics play a major role in calf development...BUT...impr oper training and not being dedicated to a program also contribute to not being able to build a decent set of calves.  Like I said I had NO calves when I started training DC now I have em, they're not "great" by any stretch of the imagination but they are a ton better than they were.  Mostly cause I had a plan and I stuck with it and now I move some pretty impressive weight and couldn't be happier with the results.
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2007, 08:10:03 AM »

Here's the pic:

I started using this method a few months back and ive put an inch on my calves since last time i measured them.  When done properly its one of the most painful things ever, but fuck it feels good when the set is over.
Could somebody also upload the other pics from this thread please  Cool
http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php?topic=13948.0

I need some motivation for those hardcore sessions.

Thx
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2007, 08:46:58 PM »

Here they are:  Smiley
Absolutely insane!  Shocked


* mtwaincalf.jpg (66.76 KB, 761x571 - viewed 9692 times.)

* mtwaincalves.jpg (76.65 KB, 1127x845 - viewed 12405 times.)
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2007, 02:25:04 AM »

Here they are:  Smiley
Absolutely insane!  Shocked


Thx Bro.  Grin
Looks like implants.  Shocked
Gonna hit those suckas hard today!

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