Brutality: Animals or Humans, where do we draw the line?

[trab]

Indians?

Perhaps you're referring to native Americans.

In that case, I'd like to see you back up the statement about them living with the world.

If that was the case back then, why aren't they doing it anymore, I wonder?

It's been shown again and again to be a myth.

The FACT is they Killed as much game as possible, whenever possible. They has to, Their weapons were crude.

Theres evidence of mass stampeding of Buffalo and Mammoth off cliffs by the earliest Americans.
THey killed as many as they could.

Its a TOTAL MYTH that they "Lived in Harmony with the land". "Killing only what they could eat at the moment".   

[~flower~]

The FACT is they Killed as much game as possible, whenever possible. They has to, Their weapons were crude.

Theres evidence of mass stampeding of Buffalo and Mammoth off cliffs by the earliest Americans.
THey killed as many as they could.

Its a TOTAL MYTH that they "Lived in Harmony with the land". "Killing only what they could eat at the moment".   

I will concede that whether it is true or not.  That just means man has always been a parasite.    

[knny187]

The FACT is they Killed as much game as possible, whenever possible. They has to, Their weapons were crude.

Theres evidence of mass stampeding of Buffalo and Mammoth off cliffs by the earliest Americans.
THey killed as many as they could.

Its a TOTAL MYTH that they "Lived in Harmony with the land". "Killing only what they could eat at the moment".   

No...your facts are little off....

They killed only what they could use, store, & live off from day to day.  You're talking about a very rare circumstance where a stampede's off a cliff was the ony 'weapon' they could come up with or had at the moment.  Early Native Americans used that as a last resort as it wasted more than they could utilize.  If you want to talk about Buffalo's..they followed the herd & it came apart of their tribe.  They would follow the herd as they free roamed & killed what was required for eating, clothes, tools, etc...  Native Americans more on the East Coast were more dependent on hunting parties.  They had more assets to fishing...but in most tribes....that was left of to the women & children.

I have a small amount of Native American in my gene pool like most people do.  My great grandmother & grandfather were 1/2 Native American.  Not that means anything...but it was always passed on when we hunted it was only for what we could utilize & anything other than that...was deemed wrong, unnecessary, & the start of a destruction of the food chain.  Remember....back then they had no source of keeping meat cold.  Meat can be made into 'jerky' but still doesn't have an undated shelf life.

[trab]

No...your facts are little off....

They killed only what they could use, store, & live off from day to day.  You're talking about a very rare circumstance where a stampede's off a cliff was the ony 'weapon' they could come up with or had at the moment.  Early Native Americans used that as a last resort as it wasted more than they could utilize.  If you want to talk about Buffalo's..they followed the herd & it came apart of their tribe.  They would follow the herd as they free roamed & killed what was required for eating, clothes, tools, etc...  Native Americans more on the East Coast were more dependent on hunting parties.  They had more assets to fishing...but in most tribes....that was left of to the women & children.

I have a small amount of Native American in my gene pool like most people do.  My great grandmother & grandfather were 1/2 Native American.  Not that means anything...but it was always passed on when we hunted it was only for what we could utilize & anything other than that...was deemed wrong, unnecessary, & the start of a destruction of the food chain.  Remember....back then they had no source of keeping meat cold.  Meat can be made into 'jerky' but still doesn't have an undated shelf life.

The FACT IS THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO KNOW FOR SURE - ARE DEAD!!
Historical evidence does not support your PC Fantasy. In Fact it points in the other direction.
 KILLING, Saving and storing as much as possible for lean times - AS YOU POINT OUT!

[knny187]

Show me evidence otherwise.....


looks like your fantasy is something only you believe (and only evidence around) to support your lavish claims

[Al-Gebra]

as much as it irks me to say it, trab's right, Indians did use the stampede method to kill more buffalo than they needed.

one of the biggest reasons they didn't have as much of an impact on the environment was that there were relatively few of them.

also, over the millenia, they had developed a way to live w nature that was more accommodating than the colonials' we're going to turn this land into jolly old england method.

[knny187]

You're looking at how many tribes lived off buffalo or were dependent on them?

Then take that same percentage.....& look who had used the stampede method.

As I said....small percent.

You guys look at all Native Americans being in teepees & hunting Buffalo

 

[~flower~]

  We are deviating off the 'man is a parasite' topic!!


  trab, since you are saying man has always been a selfish wasteful bastard, why is man any better than an animal?

  Because our brain is higher developed?  That's it?  If so what good has man done with this higher level? 

  Why does Earth even need the animal man? 

(there is a thread on the General board if anyone wishes to post there using your opposable thumb) 
 
   
 

[trab]

NOTE TO FLOWER - I DONT READ YOUR POSTS.

[~flower~]

NOTE TO FLOWER - I DONT READ YOUR POSTS.

that's one way to avoid answering questions you can't!!

     

  I get the feeling that you do read them, why else make this post?     

   

[Vet]

  We are deviating off the 'man is a parasite' topic!!


  trab, since you are saying man has always been a selfish wasteful bastard, why is man any better than an animal?

  Because our brain is higher developed?  That's it?  If so what good has man done with this higher level? 

  Why does Earth even need the animal man? 

(there is a thread on the General board if anyone wishes to post there using your opposable thumb) 
 
   
 

one of the things I like about the "human is superior" argument is that the general parameters used---ie the measure of the animals intelligence is designed around human parameters.  that alone gives a bias to humans as being the "superior" animal and it gives a bias to the very few capable of communicating in human means--such as gorillas and chimps signing or dolphins keying or african greys talking (all groups of animals without a doubt that the average educated individual will say are "intelligent")  It also seriously cracks me up.   When I did my degree in education (I have a BSed in Science Ed) in the early 1990's there was this huge push to evaluate students "based on their abilities" meaning give evaluations to maximize the abilities of the individual student.   Yet humans hypocritically turn around and rarely attempt to evaluate animals in a nonhuman way.   

I think its one of mankinds great flaws.   

[Vet]

The FACT is they Killed as much game as possible, whenever possible. They has to, Their weapons were crude.

Theres evidence of mass stampeding of Buffalo and Mammoth off cliffs by the earliest Americans.
THey killed as many as they could.

Its a TOTAL MYTH that they "Lived in Harmony with the land". "Killing only what they could eat at the moment".   

LOL.  I asked the two American Indians I work with about this over lunch (one is penobscot, the other is Cherokee).  They both said you needed to brush up on your history, you dont' know what the hell you are talking about. 

[trab]

LOL.  I asked the two American Indians I work with about this over lunch (one is penobscot, the other is Cherokee).  They both said you needed to brush up on your history, you dont' know what the hell you are talking about. 

Enough PC knee bending to the "Native Americans" or Whatever they want to be called these days.

Were they around back then? They must be getting up in age?

You tell me if a hunter gatherer has the chance to kill 10 ducks he thinks "Oh, Me can onwee eat three now..".?

[knny187]

LOL.  I asked the two American Indians I work with about this over lunch (one is penobscot, the other is Cherokee).  They both said you needed to brush up on your history, you dont' know what the hell you are talking about. 

I did read that indians used to take their dogs...tie a heavy chain to them....& trained them to kill Buffalo's

 

[Al-Gebra]

LOL.  I asked the two American Indians I work with about this over lunch (one is penobscot, the other is Cherokee).  They both said you needed to brush up on your history, you dont' know what the hell you are talking about. 

not a lot of buffalo east of the Appalachians, were there? 

nice try though.  ROFL.

edit: Perhaps I should spell it out. Penobscot and cherokee both hail from east of the appalachians. although the cherokee have been pushed west lately . . .

[Vet]

not a lot of buffalo east of the Appalachians, were there? 

nice try though.  ROFL.

edit: Perhaps I should spell it out. Penobscot and cherokee both hail from east of the appalachians. although the cherokee have been pushed west lately . . .

Shit, you caught me.    

Its sort of like the many cliffs in Kansas.   


I dont' live in the Appalachains---well, not techinically although I guess you could call it the "foothills".   The Penobscot I work with is transplanted from the far Northeast.  The Cherokee is a native to this state, but not this immediate area. 

[chaos]

Is there a difference between killing dogs or chickens that don't perform in the fight arena (FYI I am against Dog fighting and Cock fighting etc.) or killing a big buck for his antlers or even snatching a fish out of water then throwing it back with a hole in its mouth or body?

True MVick screwed up bad and he should pay his debt but what about those hunters that kill just for trophies or sports where human beings are matched against one another often maiming and even sometimes killing their opp  e.g., boxing, ufc, Football, La Crosse and Hockey etc.? Why is MVick's situation any different?

IMHO, boxing and UFC is the human version of Dog fighting and/or Cock fighting; Should these sports be illegal from a "brutality" point of view?

You view on this.

I've avoided this thread because I knew there would be some fruitcake defending Vick.............


Vick is not going to jail for brutality, he's going to jail for killing animals, running a dogfighting org., betting, taking bets, and funding the ILLEGAL operation.

Now if you can't see a difference between two guys willingly beating each other up for money and two dogs being bred to kill (rape stand to breed) then you're an idiot.


Really, I read some of your posts in this thread and I realized I don't have a high opinion of you.

[Hustle Man]

I've avoided this thread because I knew there would be some fruitcake defending Vick.............


Vick is not going to jail for brutality, he's going to jail for killing animals, running a dogfighting org., betting, taking bets, and funding the ILLEGAL operation.

Now if you can't see a difference between two guys willingly beating each other up for money and two dogs being bred to kill (rape stand to breed) then you're an idiot.


Really, I read some of your posts in this thread and I realized I don't have a high opinion of you.

Nice to meet you too Chaos!

It is unfortunate that you feel this way about me because of a few questions asked. It is apparent that you have not fully comprehended this thread or my post!

Let me set straight once and for all; I do not support Vick in this instance or the brutality that exists in the (so called) sports of Dog fighting, Dog Racing, Cock fighting, Bull fighting, Beta fish fighting, Preying Mantis Fighting, Trophy Hunting etc!

Sorry you could not handle this discussion without resorting to insults.

I asked a question others replied with their opinions about the QUESTION only few insulted me (you were one), why I don't know; you don't even know me?

I have a few questions for you CHAOS;

1) What upsets you the most here about this thread; is it the questions I asked and comments I made?

2) Which is morally apprehensible to you; the killing dogs part or is it the gambling or both?

3) If no dogs were killed but gambling took place, would this sport be ok?

4) At what point did dog fighting start to get under your skin?

5) If this were two Beta fish with bets being made on who would win, would you be this pissed at me for asking the same question? Remember, Betas don't have to be trained to fight.

6) Please tell me, why are you pissed at me again?

[Hustle Man]

OMG Chaos I had a look at your Avatar! Listen you don't have to respond lol! Take care of yourself mate!

[chaos]

Nice to meet you too Chaos!

It is unfortunate that you feel this way about me because of a few questions asked. It is apparent that you have not fully comprehended this thread or my post!

Let me set straight once and for all; I do not support Vick in this instance or the brutality that exists in the (so called) sports of Dog fighting, Dog Racing, Cock fighting, Bull fighting, Beta fish fighting, Preying Mantis Fighting, Trophy Hunting etc!

Sorry you could not handle this discussion without resorting to insults.

I asked a question others replied with their opinions about the QUESTION only few insulted me (you were one), why I don't know; you don't even know me?

I have a few questions for you CHAOS;

1) What upsets you the most here about this thread; is it the questions I asked and comments I made? the comments you made, comparing boxing, ufc, nartial arts to dog fighting is asinine.
2) Which is morally apprehensible to you; the killing dogs part or is it the gambling or both? Fighting dogs for the enjoyment of people is disgusting, these dogs are born and bred for this, unlike people that choose to fight, gambling in itself doesn't bother me at all, the dogfighting does
3) If no dogs were killed but gambling took place, would this sport be ok? No this "sport" would not be OK, it has been deemed illegal and it should be, this isn't like two guys hitting each other with a ref to stop the fight when one cannot compete any further or gives up
4) At what point did dog fighting start to get under your skin?

5) If this were two Beta fish with bets being made on who would win, would you be this pissed at me for asking the same question? Remember, Betas don't have to be trained to fight. no they don't have to be trained but they do have to be put in the same tank, and fully knowing the results would make you an asshole for doing that.
6) Please tell me, why are you pissed at me again?never said I was pissed at you, I don't think your comparisons are legitimate, you cannot compare people with animals. The biggest difference, and I've already read several posts telling you this and you keep ignoring them, PEOPLE HAVE A CHOICE AND CHOSE TO TRAIN AND BE DISCIPLINED TO FIGHT, THESE DOGS DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THE LOSER AT A UFC FIGHT ISN'T HUNG BY HIS NECK AND BEATEN TO DEATH FOR LOSING.


any more questions, Mr hustle?

[jmt1]

It is unfortunate that you feel this way about me because of a few questions asked. It is apparent that you have not fully comprehended this thread or my post!


1) What upsets you the most here about this thread; is it the questions I asked and comments I made?

2) Which is morally apprehensible to you; the killing dogs part or is it the gambling or both?

3) If no dogs were killed but gambling took place, would this sport be ok?

4) At what point did dog fighting start to get under your skin?

5) If this were two Beta fish with bets being made on who would win, would you be this pissed at me for asking the same question? Remember, Betas don't have to be trained to fight.

6) Please tell me, why are you pissed at me again?

because you started this thread by comparing sports such as boxing and ufc with dog fighting.  you said in your opinion those sports were human versions of dog fighting.  

i wondering if you have actually ever seen what goes on at a dog fight? or how these dog are treated to make them fight?

this video may be helpfull...



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=737567328566379082

[Hustle Man]

because you started this thread by comparing sports such as boxing and ufc with dog fighting.  you said in your opinion those sports were human versions of dog fighting.  

i wondering if you have actually ever seen what goes on at a dog fight? or how these dog are treated to make them fight? Yes, I have! I am originally form Detroit, Mich which is notorious for underground networks e.g., dog fighting gambling rings. I grew up seeing this kind of shit taking place everyday and it wasn't just pitbulls either, they used german shephards, boxers etc., dogs you would not even think would fight so I know the horrors of this brutal sport.

I thought I made it clear when I said this; "Let me set the record straight once and for all; I do not support Vick in this instance or the brutality that exists in the (so called) sports of Dog fighting, Dog Racing, Cock fighting, Bull fighting, Beta fish fighting, Preying Mantis Fighting, Trophy Hunting etc!" Let me also add that gladiator type matches also took place; bare fist fights for money in my old neighborhood but especially in other countries where there are no rules.

I have been around the world many times and I think I am entitled to an opinion on what I think is brutal or not! So you see I am not uneducated about these type of goings on, the reason for the post was to see what others thought about these so called sports and if they see the same similiarities that I see. It seems to me in many cases here the only reason some got upset with me was because I made a semblance to brutal human sports; sports they have chosen to participate in, and to one which is illegal that involves animals.

this video may be helpfull...



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=737567328566379082

I have already posted this video, see pages 2 & 3. Hope this helps you!

[jmt1]

I have already posted this video, see pages 2 & 3. Hope this helps you!

ok then, so you do know all about underground dog fighting networks yet you still referred to boxing and ufc as the human version of dog fighting.

thanks

[Hustle Man]

ok then, so you do know all about underground dog fighting networks yet you still referred to boxing and ufc as the human version of dog fighting.

thanks

Yes I did and will continue to see them as similiar and brutal sports! I think any sporting event that pits two individual opponents (Human or Animal) against each other (willingly or not for entertainment) is brutality. Again please read what I said about Du Ku Kim, he died in the boxing ring do you not consider that brutality.

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[jmt1]

Yes I did and will continue to see them as similiar and brutal sports! I think any sporting event that pits two individual opponents (Human or Animal) against each other (willingly or not for entertainment) is brutality. Again please read what I said about Du Ku Kim, he died in the boxing ring do you not consider that brutality.

&mode=related&search=

1.  once again dogs have no free will.  they do not have a choice to fight or not to fight.

2.  boxing and ufc are closely regulated and monitored sports while dog fighting is cruel, vicious, inhumane. dogs are thrown in this pit with the intention of fighting till the death or atleast untill one of the dogs is so badly injured he cannot continue.  in which case that dog is brutaly killed anyways.  there are no standing 8 counts, corner men, cut men, doctors.  a dog can not tap out or throw in the towel when they cant continue. 

3. ufc fighters and boxers are not electocuted, drown, hung, shot, ect for losing a fight.  yes there have been boxers who have died after a fight but this is a very rare occurrence. a baseball coach recently died after taking a line drive to the head, do you want to call baseball as brutal as dog fighting?  these boxers know what they are getting into when they step into the ring and they may come away with a cracked rib or broken nose.  if they cant deal with those chances they can always say no mas and walk away.

bottom line is calling the sports of boxing and ufc, human forms of dog fighting is just complete nonsense. maybe one day if dog fighting becomes an olympic sport you can compare them.  until that time comes there is absolutely no comparison.