Author Topic: Obama may face grilling on patriotism  (Read 5722 times)

Dos Equis

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Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« on: February 23, 2008, 10:24:50 AM »
I have questions too.   :-\

Feb 23, 12:00 PM EST

Obama may face grilling on patriotism
By NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press Writer
 
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sen. Barack Obama's refusal to wear an American flag lapel pin along with a photo of him not putting his hand over his heart during the National Anthem led conservatives on Internet and in the media to question his patriotism.

Now Obama's wife, Michelle, has drawn their ire, too, for saying recently that she's really proud of her country for the first time in her adult life.

Conservative consultants say that combined, the cases could be an issue for Obama in the general election if he wins the nomination, especially as he runs against Vietnam war hero Sen. John McCain.

"The reason it hasn't been an issue so far is that we're still in the microcosm of the Democratic primary," said Republican consultant Roger Stone. "Many Americans will find the three things offensive. Barack Obama is out of the McGovern wing of the party, and he is part of the blame America first crowd."

Opponents of Sen. John Kerry proved in the 2004 election that voters are sensitive to suggestions that a candidate is not sufficiently patriotic. The Democratic presidential nominee's campaign was torpedoed by critics of his Vietnam War record called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, even though he won multiple military honors and was lauded by his superiors.

The Swift Boat campaign started as a relatively small television ad buy that exploded into an issue that dogged Kerry for months. The Massachusetts senator has conceded since losing to President Bush that the campaign and his lackluster response to unsubstantiated allegations he considered unworthy of a reaction likely cost him the election. And the term even became part of the campaign lexicon - swift boating.

Obama already is the subject of a shadowy smear campaign based on the Internet that falsely suggests he's a Muslim intent on destroying the United States. Obama is a Christian and has been fighting the e-mail hoax, which also claims he doesn't put his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, and he's been trying to correct the misinformation.

"Whenever I'm in the United States Senate, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America," Obama frequently tells voters.

"I've been going to the same church for 20 years, praising Jesus," he adds.

Retired Major General Scott Gration, an Obama military adviser, said he expects the attacks will only increase if Obama wins the Democratic nomination.

"People are projecting things and taking things out of context," Gration said. "There's absolutely no question in my mind that Michelle and Barack are extremely patriotic, appreciate our freedoms and our values and everything else that the flag represents."

Officials with the McCain campaign and the Republican Party say they won't be suggesting Obama is less than patriotic, and instead plan to focus their criticisms on his record and inexperience if he wins the nomination. Well-funded outside groups, however, consider anything fair game.

Conservative Republican consultant Keith Appell, who worked with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, said Obama's opposition to the war will create a "striking contrast between McCain the war hero and Obama the poster child for the anti-war movement."

"If you are McCain, you want to play up the decorated war hero, loves his country, served his country," Appell said. "You want to play those themes up as much as possible, especially in comparison to Obama and his role in the anti-war movement."

On Monday, Michelle Obama told an audience in Milwaukee, "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country. Not just because Barack is doing well, but I think people are hungry for change."

Cindy McCain, McCain's wife, days later responded by saying, "I have, and always will be, proud of my country." Barack Obama has expressed frustration that his wife's remarks had been taken out of context and turned into political fodder - both the Obamas say she was talking about politics in the United States, not the country itself.

Last summer, Obama was photographed by Time magazine at an event in Iowa standing with his hands folded during the national anthem. His primary rivals Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson appear beside him, with their hands on their hearts.

It has been repeatedly reported that the moment came during the Pledge of Allegiance, but that's not the case.

In October, Obama told Iowa television station KCRG that he decided to stop wearing a U.S. flag lapel pin during the run-up to the Iraq war because it had become "a substitute for, I think, true patriotism."

"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism," Obama said.

Obama's comments led conservatives and media commentators to question his patriotism.

"First he kicked his American flag pin to the curb. Now Barack Obama has a new round of patriotism problems. Wait until you hear what the White House hopeful didn't do during the singing of the national anthem," said Steve Doocy, co-host of "Fox and Friends" on the Fox News Channel.

"He felt it OK to come out of the closet as the domestic insurgent he is," former radio host Mark Williams said on Fox.

Gration said he had a copy of the national anthem photo e-mailed to him by a friend who didn't know the facts and questioned how a military man could support someone who doesn't honor the Pledge of Allegiance.

"I go to baseball games and football games and there's just a minority of us who put our hands over our heart. It's not an indication of patriotism," Gration said. Gration said he personally wears a flag pin, but "if I meet someone who doesn't have a lapel pin, it doesn't mean they are more or less patriotic than I am."

And, he added, "I don't think you can find Barack again not putting his hand over his heart at the national anthem."
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_ATTACK_FODDER?SITE=HIHAD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 10:27:23 AM »
mcccain will bomb iran and has already committed us to staying in iraq for 100 years.

discuss.

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 10:31:51 AM »
mcccain will bomb iran and has already committed us to staying in iraq for 100 years.

discuss.

Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Hurting U.S. Terror Fight

By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, September 24, 2006; Page A01

The war in Iraq has become a primary recruitment vehicle for violent Islamic extremists, motivating a new generation of potential terrorists around the world whose numbers may be increasing faster than the United States and its allies can reduce the threat, U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/23/AR2006092301130.html
S

youandme

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2008, 10:55:47 AM »
 :-\

I'm surprsied they did not add in the comments his wife said last week, about now "being proud of America" like she has not been proud to be an American all her life or something.

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2008, 11:30:41 AM »
:-\

I'm surprsied they did not add in the comments his wife said last week, about now "being proud of America" like she has not been proud to be an American all her life or something.

Yep. 

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2008, 01:27:10 PM »
It's pretty pathetic actually that our presidential races are reduced to this bull crap.

Questioning his patriotism?  OMFG!

Many American conservatives lack the evolutionary intelligence to discern when they are being manipulated.  It's the allegory of the cave all over again.

Joe Bubba and trailer park gang figure freedom is shopping at Wal mart for gun racks.

As pathetic as this is, it's even more sad that in this country as great as it is, all we have to put up for election is:

-  A whinny frog looking clueless old man with no class
-  A religious nut job
-  A crying elitists bitch
-  A loud mouth no substance whipper snapper



War-Horse

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2008, 03:30:17 PM »
It's pretty pathetic actually that our presidential races are reduced to this bull crap.

Questioning his patriotism?  OMFG!

Many American conservatives lack the evolutionary intelligence to discern when they are being manipulated.  It's the allegory of the cave all over again.

Joe Bubba and trailer park gang figure freedom is shopping at Wal mart for gun racks.

As pathetic as this is, it's even more sad that in this country as great as it is, all we have to put up for election is:

-  A whinny frog looking clueless old man with no class
-  A religious nut job
-  A crying elitists bitch
-  A loud mouth no substance whipper snapper





LOL.   Yes, the cream always rises to the top in a democracy.

Camel Jockey

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 03:35:53 PM »
If Patriotism means being a dumnbass, then I guess not having your head up your ass would offend more most conservatives.  ;D

calmus

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 03:48:43 PM »

Who gives a fuck? It's not like Obama's trying to persuade motherfuckin Rush Limbaugh to vote for him.

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 04:15:35 PM »
Who gives a fuck? It's not like Obama's trying to persuade motherfuckin Rush Limbaugh to vote for him.

Who gives a fuck?

Masses of inbred stupid people will be distracted from anything substantial a make an issue like this important.


Not that patriotism isn't important  ::).  I would think that most people are smart enough to realize that a presidential candidates patriotism is a given. People that think otherwise are just easily manipulated sheep who are controlled by their stupidity and emotions.

But then again this a voter population who somehow got kerry to run against bush and elected bush twice.


And the BLAME AMERICA first/anti American   bull shit.   ::) ::)

calmus

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2008, 04:16:48 PM »
Who gives a fuck?

Masses of inbred stupid people will be distracted from anything substantial a make an issue like this important.

they were never going to vote for him anyway.

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2008, 04:51:01 PM »
they were never going to vote for him anyway.

No doubt.  However stupid people are everywhere, including the middle.

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2008, 05:03:21 PM »
mcccain will bomb iran and has already committed us to staying in iraq for 100 years.

discuss.

McCain=Insane! But then again Beach Bum believes in talking snakes and magical apples so....you get the picture.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2008, 05:34:13 PM »
Not stupid questions at all.  I wouldn't call him un-American, but the flag pin, pledge, and his wife’s comments are pretty dumb moves.  The president has to be a big cheerleader.  His primary job is to man the bully pulpit and make everyone feel good; be proud to be an American.  That was one of the major distinctions between Carter and Reagan.  If this guy is going to do things like not put his hand over his heart during the pledge, he's going to, among other things, offend veterans all over the place.  It's disrespectful (if true).  And it really doesn't take much to avoid these things from becoming an issue.  Does this disqualify him from office?  No.  Does it raise questions about his judgment?  Absolutely. 

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2008, 06:00:16 PM »
Judgement or patriotism?

If the article wanted to grill his judgment then it should read:

"Obama may face grilling on judgement"   

Then we can bring into the discussions McCain and his singing of BOMB BOMB BOMB IRAN.

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2008, 06:03:51 PM »
Judgement or patriotism?

If the article wanted to grill his judgment then it should read:

"Obama may face grilling on judgement"   

Then we can bring into the discussions McCain and his singing of BOMB BOMB BOMB IRAN.

Both.  The flag pin and pledge are judgment issues.  His wife's comments raise patriotism issues.  How in the world could they (and I'm assuming he and his wife share the same views) not be proud of their country or be proud to be an American, particularly when this guy was a state and U.S. senator?  Yeah, I'd question the patriotism of someone making that kind of statement.   

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2008, 06:08:27 PM »
Both.  The flag pin and pledge are judgment issues.  His wife's comments raise patriotism issues.  How in the world could they (and I'm assuming he and his wife share the same views) not be proud of their country or be proud to be an American, particularly when this guy was a state and U.S. senator?  Yeah, I'd question the patriotism of someone making that kind of statement.   

How does being dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of your country make you less patriotic?

Especially when you consider that the person who said it is vigorously campaigning for change?

If anything in my mind it makes you more patriotic.

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2008, 06:15:10 PM »
How does being dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of your country make you less patriotic?

Especially when you consider that the person who said it is vigorously campaigning for change?

If anything in my mind it makes you more patriotic.

She didn't say she was dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of our country.  She said "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country."  There is no way to sugarcoat those comments.  This coming from a couple who are among the most educated, successful, and high earners in the country.

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2008, 06:22:16 PM »
She didn't say she was dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of our country.  She said "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country."  There is no way to sugarcoat those comments.  This coming from a couple who are among the most educated, successful, and high earners in the country.

Why?

Because she sees, IHO,  the real possibility for change?

Because maybe she doesn't agree with the decisions of it's leadership since she's been a adult?

How does that make it unpatriotic?

Who's sugar coating?

Is the constitution sugar coating?....... it's part of "free speech" the ability and right to criticize this country.  It's part of what it is to be American and that in NO WAY makes her or anyone else less patriotic if they are speaking for change and voicing their dissatisfaction.

Otherwise we might as well resurrect Stalin and Hitler and have them decided what's patriotic. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2008, 06:29:34 PM »
Why?

Because she sees, IHO,  the real possibility for change?

Because maybe she doesn't agree with the decisions of it's leadership since she's been a adult?

How does that make it unpatriotic?

Who's sugar coating?

It the constitution sugar coating?....... it's part of "free speech" the ability and right to criticize this country.  It's part of what it is to be American and that in NO WAY makes her or anyone else less patriotic if they are speaking for change and voicing their dissatisfaction.

Otherwise we might as well resurrect Stalin and Hitler and have them decided what's patriotic. 


Because they were dumb comments.  I listed in another thread (the one where her comments are posted) some of the reasons why she should have been proud of her country in her adult life. 

You are sugarcoating her comments if you're saying she expressed dissatisfaction with her leadership.  That isn't what she said. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the Constitution.  I didn't say she didn't have the right to make those comments or that the government should forbid her from making those comments.  The First Amendment gives everyone the right to make stupid comments, as she showed this week. 

When someone has greatly benefited from the very things that make this country great and then claim to not be "proud" of that country, yeah, I will question their judgment, motives, patriotism, etc. 

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2008, 06:44:51 PM »
Patriotism differs little from nationalism.

Pride in one's 'country' is a silly thing. How can one be proud of having arbitrarily been born some place, having no say in it. It is an accident that we are Americans or that someone else is a Frenchman. Pride should only be expressed for those things one has personally accomplished and achieved in one's own life, of and by one's own accord, not in the doings and feats of past men, who themselves were the products of a geographical accident.
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OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2008, 06:50:38 PM »
Because they were dumb comments. 

So now dumb comments are unpatriotic?

com on.

Quote
I listed in another thread (the one where here comments are posted) some of the reasons why she should have been proud of her country in her adult life.

So you are now the one who determines what people should be proud of and if they are not they are unpatriotic?

Quote
You are sugarcoating her comments if you're saying she expressed dissatisfaction with her leadership.  That isn't what she said.

She said for the first time in her adult life she is proud of America. 


What do you think she means?  She "HATES" America?  she hates things that are American? 

Com on.   You know very well what she meant.  She wasn't proud because it isn't the country she thinks it should be which includes it's leadership.   

News:   that's the beauty of being American.  We all have th right to try and change the country......democracy,  imagine.

Quote
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the Constitution.  I didn't say she didn't have the right to make those comments or that the government should forbid her from making those comments.  The First Amendment gives everyone the right to make stupid comments, as she showed this week.

But you called her unpatriotic for it, or was it dumb?  or was it lacking judgment?   While it may lack judgment in a presidential race (which is a matter of opinion as they are in the drivers seat for the nomination) it is certainly NOT unpatriotic.

Quote
When someone has greatly benefited from the very things that make this country great and then claim to not be "proud" of that country, yeah, I will question their judgment, motives, patriotism, etc.

Oh, so now because she benefited from being American she is unpatriotic to not be proud until now when she sees change happening?

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2008, 07:04:16 PM »
So now dumb comments are unpatriotic?

com on.

So you are now the one who determines what people should be proud of and if they are not they are unpatriotic?

She said for the first time in her adult life she is proud of America. 


What do you think she means?  She "HATES" America?  she hates things that are American? 

Com on.   You know very well what she meant.  She wasn't proud because it isn't the country she thinks it should be which includes it's leadership.   

News:   that's the beauty of being American.  We all have th right to try and change the country......democracy,  imagine.

But you called her unpatriotic for it, or was it dumb?  or was it lacking judgment?   While it may lack judgment in a presidential race (which is a matter of opinion as they are in the drivers seat for the nomination) it is certainly NOT unpatriotic.

Oh, so now because she benefited from being American she is unpatriotic to not be proud until now when she sees change happening?


No, not all dumb comments are unpatriotic. 

Yes, I have an opinion about what people should be proud of.  You don't have to agree.  That's why it's called an opinion.   :)

I'm not inside her head, so I don't know precisely what she meant, but I accept her words at face value:  she was not proud (in other words, she was ashamed) of her country before her husband become a legitimate presidential candidate.  Unacceptable.  But hear she has backed off those comments?   

I agree one of the beauties of being an American is the people have the power to change things. 

Actually, as I think about it, her comments were dumb, lacking in judgment, and unpatriotic.  You don't have to agree.  Someone who has been wildly successful in this country should be gleeful about what a great land this is, particularly when one of them is a first generation American citizen.  I personally don't know how most people, particularly those with their lifestyle and accomplishments--compliments of our great country--could not be "proud" of their country.  We have people who sacrifice their lives for this country.  We take care of the have nots.  We give every American-born person, man or woman, the ability to become president of the United States, even the son of immigrants.  But one of the beauties of this country is we don't have to agree on this.   :)   

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2008, 07:35:08 PM »
No, not all dumb comments are unpatriotic. 

Yes, I have an opinion about what people should be proud of.  You don't have to agree.  That's why it's called an opinion.   :)

I'm not inside her head, so I don't know precisely what she meant, but I accept her words at face value:  she was not proud (in other words, she was ashamed) of her country before her husband become a legitimate presidential candidate.  Unacceptable.  But hear she has backed off those comments?   

I agree one of the beauties of being an American is the people have the power to change things. 

Actually, as I think about it, her comments were dumb, lacking in judgment, and unpatriotic.  You don't have to agree.  Someone who has been wildly successful in this country should be gleeful about what a great land this is, particularly when one of them is a first generation American citizen.  I personally don't know how most people, particularly those with their lifestyle and accomplishments--compliments of our great country--could not be "proud" of their country.  We have people who sacrifice their lives for this country.  We take care of the have nots.  We give every American-born person, man or woman, the ability to become president of the United States, even the son of immigrants.  But one of the beauties of this country is we don't have to agree on this.   :)   


You know reading what you have to say on this matter reminds of oversensitive libs who run around chastising everyone for not being politically correct but in this case in reverse.

You are criticizing her for a comment she made with knowing what was going on in her head or what she meant by it in detail.  And then you are attaching a whole bunch of things to it.   Such as, "people have sacrificed their lives for this country" to her comment.  Like people do when getting all bent out of shape because there is a cross on a public building or American Indian groups getting fired up about the Atlanta Braves and the tomahawk chop. 

And do you know what she was "not proud of"  Do you automatically "assume" it's all the things you listed?  Do you really think she's "ashamed of EVERYTHING".  I think it's more than obvious she's not talking about everything, but instead some specific things.  Otherwise don't you think she'd just move.

I'm successful in this country and for the last 5 years I'm not proud of it at all.  In fact I'm saddened with every aspect of our leadership from both parties.   Does that make me unpatriotic?   Do you think she's not proud of our constitution?  Would you answer that question by saying "i donno if she is" 

Does that make anyone that criticizes the USA unpatriotic.  Because that is exactly what you suggest.

I think you backed yourself in a corner here.  You were quick to judge without  considering the full context of her statement and are motivated to hold your position because of your distaste for the Obama in general.  I feel ya.  All 4 of them suck arse.


Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2008, 08:05:55 PM »
You know reading what you have to say on this matter reminds of oversensitive libs who run around chastising everyone for not being politically correct but in this case in reverse.

You are criticizing her for a comment she made with knowing what was going on in her head or what she meant by it in detail.  And then you are attaching a whole bunch of things to it.   Such as, "people have sacrificed their lives for this country" to her comment.  Like people do when getting all bent out of shape because there is a cross on a public building or American Indian groups getting fired up about the Atlanta Braves and the tomahawk chop. 

And do you know what she was "not proud of"  Do you automatically "assume" it's all the things you listed?  Do you really think she's "ashamed of EVERYTHING".  I think it's more than obvious she's not talking about everything, but instead some specific things.  Otherwise don't you think she'd just move.

I'm successful in this country and for the last 5 years I'm not proud of it at all.  In fact I'm saddened with every aspect of our leadership from both parties.   Does that make me unpatriotic?   Do you think she's not proud of our constitution?  Would you answer that question by saying "i donno if she is" 

Does that make anyone that criticizes the USA unpatriotic.  Because that is exactly what you suggest.

I think you backed yourself in a corner here.  You were quick to judge without  considering the full context of her statement and are motivated to hold your position because of your distaste for the Obama in general.  I feel ya.  All 4 of them suck arse.



Yes I made assumptions about her comments, just like you put the best possible spin on her comments.  We're both making assumptions. 

You have not been proud of your country at all the past 5 years?  Sounds like an overstatement.  If you're not overstating things, then I'd say you have a warped view of your country. 

There is nothing unpatriotic about questioning your country's leadership, decisions, policies, etc.  I do it all the time.  That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about a woman saying she has not been proud of her country in her entire adult life (more than 20 years). 

I'm not in any corner.  I stand by my criticism of her comments.  And no I'm not motivated by dislike for Obama. 

I am not happy with the top 3.  Looks like I'll be holding my nose again in November.  :-\