Do bodybuilders really need supplements and drugs to get big?

[Vince B]

You know, this protein issue is one that should be inspected. I mean, show me anyone on Getbig who is natural and rapidly growing. How much protein synthesis is going on with most of you guys? Answer, just enough to stay the same size. That is the problem in bodybuilding. All this bullshit about protein and supplements when hardly anyone is growing at all. This has to be the dumbest sport in the universe. So many do so much for almost nothing at all.

I still say 50 grams is totally sufficient for the needs of most of the guys posting on Getbig.

[pellius]

Pellius, can we agree on the test for deciding whether we need to supplement our diets or not? Sometimes people get problems digesting food and therefore can have deficiencies. So that is always something to look out for.

However, what is the test for determining how much protein we need? I think Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones argued that bodybuilders typically ate 2 to 4 times as much protein that they actually needed for any growth. I doubt trial and error is sufficient here because taking way more than is needed proves only sufficiency and not necessity. Scientific tests done on pro bodybuilders is what is needed but we are unlikely to have any such thing because I know of no scientist who is in the slightest interested in that subject. The few that might be interested would probably lose interest because of the drugs those bodybuilders use.

I don't subscribe to high levels of protein. Perhaps 50 grams a day is more than adequate as long as the proteins are the right kind. Science and not gym lore should decide the issue.

One question remains. Is there any argument that anyone can put to you such that you will abandon the notion that you require drugs to assist your quest for strength and size? From what I have read it seems clear that you have been on a plateau for a very long time and those drugs are used merely to maintain what you have. That seems a high price to pay for the meagre results you are getting.

Well, the question isn't exactly relavant since I intentionally didn't want to gain weight since I competed in the 187 lb class. I already stated that I'm not a bodybuilder in the sense that is understood on this board. I can say both objectively and subjectively that testosterone and nandrolone made a qualitative difference. At 38 yrs. my test level were on the low side. This was determined by a blood test. After going on HRT they hovered around 750-850 and I felt it in both energy and vitality. Deca helped tremendously with the joints since I've had surgery in both knees (95% of the cartilage had been cut out) and both shoulders (one could not be adequately repaired). Also, recovery was substantial and enabled me to continue with a rigorous training regime.

Since there has been no quest for great muscle size, a non-quest that is clearly evident, I do not think I've ever been mistaken for a competitive bodybuilder. But I will say this without undo immodesty: Judging by the comments I get regularly regarding my appearance and the functional ability I am able to demonstrate, it would not be unreasonable for one to surmise, perhaps generously, that I do bear a vague resemblance to one who is not wholly unacquainted with athletic endeavors.

[Vince B]

Since there has been no quest for great muscle size, a non-quest that is clearly evident, I do not think I've ever been mistaken for a competitive bodybuilder. But I will say this without undo immodesty: Judging by the comments I get regularly regarding my appearance and the functional ability I am able to demonstrate, it would not be unreasonable for one to surmise, perhaps generously, that I do bear a vague resemblance to one who is not wholly unacquainted with athletic endeavors.

In Getbig jargon that means you look like a swimmer. If you don't want to add size then your participation in this discussion is rather pointless. You might want to review your goals in the martial arts because the toll on your body is rather severe and continuing in competition is going to aggravate those injuries.

[turner98]

Hey, Vince do you think if you took two bodybuilders and one ate McDonald's exclusively and the other ate other food, yet they both could rep out with 315-450lb, curl at least the 65s for reps and deadlift at least 550lb, and then dieted down to 5% bodyfat, do you think eating Mcdonald's food would of made any difference? And candizzle, if you were benching 310 pounds for good textbook 10-12 reps, 495 pounds for a couple, yet only consumed 150 grams of protein per day, you think your arms would be 15 inches because of ''insufficient protein''. 

I'm sure some will sit here trying to find a modern miracle or some stuff. When those guys diet down down to low body-fat levels, they are still strong because they still have big muscles—about 19.5-20 inch arms for NPC Heavyweights and IFBB guys. The larger fellas—like Ronnie, Dorian, Dillett—slightly bigger still. If they are at "their weakest" it's because they lost a couple pounds of muscle in the process. But it can't be too significant: shit how weak is 455 for 6 on the incline, also 315 to 370lb on behind neck press? 

[pellius]

In Getbig jargon that means you look like a swimmer. If you don't want to add size then your participation in this discussion is rather pointless. You might want to review your goals in the martial arts because the toll on your body is rather severe and continuing in competition is going to aggravate those injuries.

You are quite right. But as Frank Zane is often described as one with a swimmer physique and when I look at some the the modern day builds of Olympic level swimmers and compare that to the current crop of top bodybuilders I do not consider being put in that class as necessarily a pejorative.

As to my participation in this discussion being pointless because I am not interested in attaining great physical size I'm not sure I understand. As far as I know, based on your previous post on various threads, you yourself don't seem much interested in gaining muscular size or even maintaining any appreciable level of physical conditioning yet it is a subject you have passion for.

And I have slowed down considerably and much more aware of not doing things or over doing things that will injure me. But Helio Gracie, one of the founders of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and who is now in his 90s, still is active and hits the mat regularly. But, of course, nothing lasts forever. Everything is temporary -- even fleeting. But we try to hang on as long as we can. We do so as we are alive.

[Vince B]

All bodybuilders want to look good. Depends on how much motivation you have to keep doing it as you get older. I swear every year I vow to look good on the beach that year. Ah, procrastination. Nowadays we worry about skin cancer so sit in beach shelter tents and wear protective clothing and hats. No one should underestimate the sun's power if they live below 40 degrees latitude. Sydney is approximately on the same latitude as Atlanta and Los Angeles. About 35 degrees South. You can tan for at least 9 months of the year here. If you live up in Queensland you can get tanned all year long.

I still want to gain more muscular size. At my age it will be an interesting experiment. I have no doubt I can get bigger arms and perhaps calves. Losing bodyfat isn't so easy as you get beyond 50. Wait and see for the young guys who have no idea what is going to happen to them. The injuries are nagging. Sore shoulders that makes doing bench pressing painful. I tore my biceps deadlifting 509 pounds in 1978. Curse that stupid deadlift movement. Arthur Jones was right. Never demonstrate your strength. Don't arm wrestle anyone, either. Tell them you are good at breaking wrists.

You really have to be careful with connective tissue. More on that subject later if anyone is interested. I still shake my head daily when I see novices and advanced guys doing silly exercises. Some are ineffective and some are dangerous. People do them because they see others doing them or they see photos in magazines.

[pellius]

What do you think happens to a person as they get over 50 that makes losing body fat harder?

[Vince B]

At 50 most people slow down. Instead of doing active things most take it easy and if they go to the gym then the workouts usually do not stimulate hypertrophy. The metabolism isn't the same, either. At 25 it is easy to lose fat in a couple of weeks. At 60 good luck. You usually lose muscle when you diet. The interesting thing is that hypertrophy seems easier to obtain. Not sure why this is so. Perhaps the testosterone increases in some men. You will find body hair increasing as you age. Why should hair that never grew all of a sudden start sprouting when you are older? Ears, nose, eyebrows, chest and back fill with hair while the head thins.

Older guys really need to find some motivation to hit the gym. When you have been a bodybuilder for decades you know exactly what you have to do in the gym to grow. Then you know how often you have to train and the combination can demotivate anyone. If you can't sustain the workouts there is no point doing hypertrophy training. Most older people do not bodybuild and almost no older women do. Somehow, somewhere that motivation has to be found otherwise it just is not worth all that effort.

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

theres nothing to debate on that point, vince. seroids do not quit working. in fact, the longer your on them the better they work. its one of the few exceptions to the rule of "down regulation" in the body.  in fact the reaction is quite the opposite.

thats ttoally true my fiend,,,,,if say you go off sust. for 4 weeks thats 4 weeks no muscle gains, but lets say subzet A person go on sust. for 6 months straight he gains 60lbs of muzles....,,,,then you got guy B who does cycles within 6 months,,,,he go off and on he will gain less tahn guy A.  Its better you see to stay on longer than shorter cycles while on hormonalized person. 

[_bruce_]

Quite interesting read Vince.
Good luck in your quest... also include chin-curls if you wan't a shot at the Mr. O title 
Q: have you ever seen a dude with really big but short bicep?

[HeyNow]

What is the cause of Palumboism? Shrinking arms/legs, discolored skin, abnormally large midsection, mishaped muscles.........you know the drill?

Palumboism.......Insulin way too much insulin, shrinking arms could be change in diet, old age or lack of training etc, discolored skin.......shit happens.....so I guess Michael Jackson was on roids too since he had discolored skin.  Large midsection caused by overeating and too much slin/gh combined, mishaped muscles is caused by injuries or injecting too much steroid or too much oil into the muscle or scar tissue.  Not rocket science.

[QuakerOats]

Hey, Vince do you think if you took two bodybuilders and one ate McDonald's exclusively and the other ate other food, yet they both could rep out with 315-450lb, curl at least the 65s for reps and deadlift at least 550lb, and then dieted down to 5% bodyfat, do you think eating Mcdonald's food would of made any difference? And candizzle, if you were benching 310 pounds for good textbook 10-12 reps, 495 pounds for a couple, yet only consumed 150 grams of protein per day, you think your arms would be 15 inches because of ''insufficient protein''. 

I'm sure some will sit here trying to find a modern miracle or some stuff. When those guys diet down down to low body-fat levels, they are still strong because they still have big muscles—about 19.5-20 inch arms for NPC Heavyweights and IFBB guys. The larger fellas—like Ronnie, Dorian, Dillett—slightly bigger still. If they are at "their weakest" it's because they lost a couple pounds of muscle in the process. But it can't be too significant: shit how weak is 455 for 6 on the incline, also 315 to 370lb on behind neck press? 

who do you know who is pushing those numbers?

[tu_holmes]

who do you know who is pushing those numbers?

I pushed those numbers once.



The bar didn't move though.

[Montague]

 

[turner98]

What the hell are you on about, QuakerOats. I'm talking about Dennis James, Kevin Levrone, etc

[QuakerOats]

What the hell are you on about, QuakerOats. I'm talking about Dennis James, Kevin Levrone, etc

oh you mean their Smith Machine half reps. get back to me when they're doing that on free weight barbell presses behind the neck to the bottom of the ear.

[turner98]

Levrone: 315x10, 405x6, 455x6 and 455x4, 495x3 on BFTO '98. 495lbs for "4" on M3. The man was strong as an ox when he competed. i worked out with kev at his gym in glen burnie. i was in the m3 video. i've seen the guy take off from weights for 4-6 months and still comeback  and bench 405 for reps. Before the back injury, i've seen kevin sqaut 650lbs barefooof for reps.

Gunter, also a strong fella: "225 for 12 on first set to failure in this workout. He regularly incline presses 365 for six to eight reps in the off season. Few pros do barbell bench presses, especially precontest, but Glass believes heavy compound lifts are best for muscle density and that those who rely on isolation lifts and machines look flat on bodybuilding contest stages. Schlierkamp does his first set with 225 for 12 reps, his second with 275 for nine and his third with 295 for eight. All the while, at Glass' urging, he keeps up a brutal pace."
 
Gunter started off his chest workout with incline barbell presses on the Smith machine using 275 pounds. Gunter went on to do 405 pounds in a drop set going to 315 and then 225."

Dillett said he could do 15-20 reps with 305lbs on the bench press. Cutler did an easy ten with 315 at a bodyweight of 292lbs. Also, Dillett does machine shoulder presses with 360lbs for 8, and easily does 40 pound dumbbell laterals for same amount on BFTO '98.

Dorian:"poundages in the 92 offseason from his log:"
flat bench: 435 x 5. I think Dorian inclined 425lbs on the Blood & Guts vid. In the Ask Dorian section of his website he said he inclined 440lbs for 8. He mentions doing rows with 440lbs in the August '08 issue of Flex. Also, squatted 600lbs for 12.


Mcgrath: 315x10, 405x5[both incline], 185lb barbell curls for 9. "ive watched frank bench 500 for a single and rep out 405 on flat for 10-12." Gustavo Badell did 185lb barbell curls for 8 on BFTO '05.

On Greg Kovacs:".......I was amazed because the year before I was training at the old World Gym in Venice and he could barely bench 495 for 4"

Dennis James: 315x10, 405x6, 455x3 on BFTO '98. Inclined "500lbs" three times on the smith machine on Back to Basics.

Tom Prince: "I inclined 495 x 6, and 545 x 2. Squatted 755 x 2 and 805 x 1," etc

Ronnie: 315 x 12, 405 x 10, 495 x 5—flat benching on The Cost of Redemption.

Cutler: 225x14, 315x9 on One Step Closer. All piece of cake on the flat bench.







If they all stopped taking the drugs, but still had this strength, u think it would matter? Or would they not be this strong without them?

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

HELLO.....

[tu_holmes]

Tom Prince: "I inclined 495 x 6, and 545 x 2. Squatted 755 x 2 and 805 x 1," etc


If they all stopped taking the drugs, but still had this strength, u think it would matter? Or would they not be this strong without them?

Ask this guy what he's benching... He's off the sauce.