Is there anything original in the Jesus story?

[loco]

Is that right?

Attis escaped to the mountains, maimed himself, and died besides a pine tree, into which his soul transmigrated, while from his blood sprang violets like a wreath round the tree. The goddess implored Zeus to restore her lover BUT IT WAS NOT TO BE. But so much was granted that his body should never decay, that his hair should always grow, and that his little finger should always move. - Alexandar Murray, "Manual of mythology: Greek and Roman, Norse and Old German, Hindu and Egyptian Mythology"



Resurrection? I DON'T THINK SO!!!

Once again, Attis doesn't match whatsoever (not to mention the lack of those other items listed).

Correction: We don't have a direct source, BECAUSE THERE IS NO direct source. Attis doesn't rise from the dead, period. You've had a year to produce the goods; yet you've come up with zilch.

PLEASE!!! Attis doesn't die via crucifixion. He cuts his nuts off, which is hardly a match with Jesus Christ. Furthermore, that festival didn't start until WELL AFTER Christianity had already taken off in Jerusalem, perhaps as late as 4th century AD.


The complex mythology of Attis is irrelevant to the question of dying and rising deities. In the Phrygian version, Attis is killed by castration; in the Lydian version, he is killed by a boar. In neither case is there any question of his returning to life. Two late, post-Christian theological reflections on the myth hint at rebirth: the allegory in Naassene Sermon and the "euhemerist" account in Firmacus Maternus (third book of De errore profanarum religionum from the fourth century AD), in which a pretended resurrection is mentioned, although it is doubtful this ever played any part in the actual cult.

The attempts in the earlier scholarly literature to identify Attis as a "dying and rising deity" depend not on the mythology but rather on the ritual of the five-day festival of Cybele on March 22-27. Some scholars saw the "Day of Blood" (March 24) and the "Day of Joy" (March 25) as an analogy of the Christian relationship between Good Friday to Easter Sunday, and reasoned that if there was "mourning" on the first day, the object of the "joy" on the following day must be Attis' "resurrection."  But there is no evidence this is the case. The Day of Joy is a late addition to what was once a three-day ritual in which the Day of Blood was followed by a purificatory ritual and the return of the statue of the goddess to the temple. The Day of Joy in the cult celebrated Cybele, not Attis.

The sole text that connects the Day of Joy with Attis is a fifth-century AD biography of Isidore the Dialectician by the Neoplatonic philosopher Damascius who reports that Isidore once had a dream in which he was Attis and the Day of Joy was celebrated in his honor!

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm#Attis


Now this is comical:

An angel had nothing to do with Horus' birth and, as if that weren't enough, Isis wasn't a virgin. She has SEX with Osiris in the underworld, as has been mentioned NUMEROUS TIMES.

Of the parts of Osiris's body the only one which Isis did not find was the male member, for the reason that this had been at once tossed into the river, and the lepidotus, the sea-bream, and the pike had fed upon it; and it is from these very fishes the Egyptians are most scrupulous in abstaining. But Isis made a replica of the member to take its place, and consecrated the phallus, in honour of which the Egyptians even at the present day celebrate a festival." (Plutarch, Moralia V, On Isis and Osiris, 18) (courtesy of http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/HORUS.htm#SUMMARY)


I already exposed that "Isis-Mary" flap of yours to be utterly false. But to reiterate (from the aforementioned site):

Her name was simply Isis (in Greek). Her true Egyptian name is transliterated simply A-s-e-t or 3st (all woman names in Egyptian end with the "t"). Her name (Aset) means "seat" or "throne" (Oxford Encyclopedia, vol 2, "Isis" p. 188) and "the goddess's name is written in hieroglyphs with a sign that represents a throne, indicating the crucial role that she plays in the transmission of the kingship of Egypt" (Hart, Routledge Dictionary, "Isis" p. 80).


And she definitely was not a virgin when she conceived Horus with the revivified Osiris, if these words mean anything: "[Osiris was] revived enough to have an erection and impregnate his wife" (Lesko, p. 162); "After having sexual intercourse..." (Dunand / Zivie-Coche, p. 39); "revivified the sexual member of Osiris and became pregnant by him" (Richard Wilkinson, p. 146); "revive the sexual powers of Osiris" (Pinch, p. 80).

A virgin birth, or more properly, a virginal conception, is by definition non-sexual.


Here is some commentary on the "conception of Horus" from various Egyptian scholars:

"...drawings on contemporary funerary papyri show her as a kite hovering above Osiris, who is revived enough to have an erection and impregnate his wife." (Lesko, Great Goddesses of Egypt, p. 162)

"After having sexual intercourse, in the form of a bird, with the dead god she restored to life, she gave birth to a posthumous son, Horus." (Dunand / Zivie-Coche, Gods and Men in Egypt, p. 39)

"Through her magic Isis revivified the sexual member of Osiris and became pregnant by him, eventually giving birth to their child, Horus." (Richard Wilkinson, Complete gods and goddesses of Ancient Egypt, p. 146)

"Isis already knows that she is destined to bear a child who will be king. In order to bring this about, she has to revive the sexual powers of Osiris, just as the Hand Goddess aroused the penis of the creator to create the first life." (Pinch, Handbook of Egyptian Mythology, p. 80)

In short, this was NO "virgin birth" as is clear also from repeated references to Osiris' "seed." A "miraculous birth" perhaps because it involves a dead and then revived husband, but not a virginal conception (sometimes wrongly called an "immaculate conception" -- that has to do in Catholic theology with Mary's conception without Original Sin, not Jesus' conception) nor a virgin birth as contained in the Bible (cf. Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38).

As if that weren't enough, Osiris REMAINS in the underworld (that means he is still DEAD).

Osiris' rule plays a great role in Egyptian texts. They almost always speak of him as ruler of the realm of the dead, an office he assumed only as a dead god, and almost never about his earthly kingship, which he exercised over gods and men in the world above as successor of Geb. Osiris' reign came to a violent end as he was slain by his brother, Seth. Later Horus avenges his father Osiris' death and succeeds him without completely destroying Seth. Thus did death come into the world, confronting the gods with a great problem. This is the prehistory of which there is no coherent narrative in the Egyptian texts.

Because, boy genius, you (or Freke and Gandy) FORGOT to quote the rest of Justin's words. Otherwise that question of yours would be easily answered.

Why don't you try posting the REST of what Justin says about the matter?

“And when we say also that… [Jesus] was produced without sexual union, and that He… was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we profess nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.”

Here's what you left out, Luke:

For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

In other words, Justin states that, based on the action of Zeus/Jupiter and his numerous bastard sons (often produced via rape, they categorically are NOT like Jesus Christ in the least.

Also notice IN BOLD the manners of death, prescribed to all of those figures. Notice what form of death is conspicuously absent.

“…And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.”
[/b]

But, check out what it says later.....

"But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically.”  - Justin Martyr, First Apology 55

HOUSTON!!! We have a problem!! You claim that ALL of those "dying-resurrecting godmen" were crucified, as Christ was. But, if you're trying to claim that Justin is admitting such, you got some 'splaining to do.






Wrong again, Luke!!
But don't take my word for it:



"...it is now held that the majority of the gods so denoted appear to have died but not returned; there is death but no rebirth or resurrection. What evidence was relied on by previous scholarship for the putative resurrection can be shown, it is claimed, to be based on a misinterpretation of the documents, or on late texts from the Christian era (frequently by Christians) which reveal an interpretatio Christiana of another religion's myths and rituals, or a borrowing of the Christian motif, at a late stage, by the religions themselves....While these negative conclusions have not been without challenge by scholars of Late Antiquity [see especially the more recent The Riddle of Resurrection by T.N.D. Mettinger (2001) ]....[they] represent a genuine reversal in scholarly thought. That which was posited as most 'primitive' -- a myth and ritual pattern of 'dying and rising' deities ultimately based on human sacrifice or ritual murder in relation to the fertility of vegetation -- has turned out to be an exceedingly late third or fourth century [AD] development in the myths and rituals of these deities....[scholars] ignoring their own reiterated insistence, when the myth and ritual complex appeared archaic, that analogies do not yield genealogies, they now eagerly assert what they hitherto denied, that the similarities demonstrate that the Mediterranean cults borrowed from the Christian." - J. Z. Smith, "Drudgery Divine"

"It must not be uncritically assumed that the Mysteries always influenced Christianity, for it is not only possible but probable that in certain cases, the influence moved in the opposite direction....Unlike the deities of the Mysteries, who were nebulous figures of an imaginary past, the Divine Being whom the Christian worshiped as Lord was known as a real Person on earth only a short time before the earliest documents of the New Testament were written." - Dr. Bruce Metzger in Ronald T. Nash's, "The Gospel and the Greeks"


You claimed that these figures were crucified, but every source that references these entities, including Justin Martyr, holds that they were NOT crucified. And the other accounts also hold that they DO NOT rise from the dead. Add to that, the lack of a virgin birth and there you have it. Once again, your claim are all fluff and no stuff.

epic destruction

[big L dawg]

 

[The Luke]

epic destruction

...epic evasion.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

...epic evasion.



The Luke

That would be on YOUR part, Luke.

Notice that you completely LEFT OUT the fact that Justin mentioned that none of the so-called figures from which Jesus was allegedly copied died via crucifixion, something YOU CLAIMED they did, from the very onset of your pitiful excuse of a challenge.

And when we say also that… [Jesus] was produced without sexual union, and that He… was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we profess nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.” - Justin Martyr

Jesus was produced without sexual union (virgin birth). But, how do those sons of Jupiter come to fruition again?

But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions..

Jesus Christ was crucified. But how did those sons of Jupiter die again?

For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus.

Add to that Attis' self-castration, Dionysus' mauling by wild animals, Osiris' drowning, and the death of the others by evey manner EXECPT crucifixion and your spiel basically goes kaput.

Oh, remember all that astrological mess you claimed about the number 72, the pieces that Osiris' was divided after his dismemberment? It turns out that he was only cut into 14 pieces, a factor you haven't addressed TO THIS DAY.


Also notice that not a single one of them rose from the dead, something you also claimed.

Not to mention, you claims about Osiris and Isis were DEAD WRONG!! I've got the data to back my statements. Where's yours?

Lastly, your errors regarsing Horus were completely exposed. Recap:

1) There is no "Mary" or "Meri" on Isis' name.

2) Once again, we see the foolish attempt to make a big deal out of the December 25th date. Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus said to be born on such a date.

3) Still stuck on that wise men thing (Oh, wait!! They're "solar deities", now  ) How many times do we go over this? One, with regards to Jesus Christ: They are wise men, exact number UNKNOWN, who do NOT find Jesus at birth but around 2 years later.

4) "We know nothing of what became of Horus till he partakes of a special ritual at age twelve16 and gained knowledge of all things" Fortunately, we DO know what became of Jesus Christ. He and His family went to Jerusalem every year (see Luke 2). Plus, Jesus didn't disappear. He grew up in Nazareth and became a carpenter (see Mark).

5) Anup was hardly a Baptiser. He was an embalmer and and guided souls through the underworld, a FAR CRY from John the Baptist.

6) Horus' alleged disciples were actually followers of his mother, Isis. And there's hardly an affixation of exactly 12 of them.


The epic evasion comes from you, as Loco and I have been asking you to support your ridiculous claims FOR NEARLY ONE YEAR. All you've produced is excuses.

[The Luke]

McWay,

You are so dishonest I don't know how you can maintain your delusional point of view... I keep posting more and more claims, you keep Google-Fu-ing the answers searching for some dishonest Christian apologist ready-made-argument to refute my claims.

But this means you must be exposing yourself to more and more of these obvious similarities between the Jesus story and the pagan dying/resurrecting godmen.

How long can you continue reading about these similarities and forcing yourself to dismiss them?


If Jesus' crucifixion was so original, what was he doing in Cyprus circa 3,000 BC... ?  



The Luke

[MCWAY]

McWay,

You are so dishonest I don't know how you can maintain your delusional point of view... I keep posting more and more claims, you keep Google-Fu-ing the answers searching for some dishonest Christian apologist ready-made-argument to refute my claims.

What's so "dishonest" about them? Name one fact that I posted that wasn't accurate?

Your claims are hardly anything new. Atheists and skeptics have been making those bone-headed assertions for over 100 years. And ALL of them have been soundly refuted, when the figures and the facts are actually studied.

Again, why re-invent the wheel, when the data about these figures is readily available? That's why I "Google-Fu" them, just as you "Google-Fu" your wild claims.

But this means you must be exposing yourself to more and more of these obvious similarities between the Jesus story and the pagan dying/resurrecting godmen.

How long can you continue reading about these similarities and forcing yourself to dismiss them?

WHAT SIMILARITIES, boy genius?

You claim that they were crucified and foolishly posted Justin Martyr's words to make the point, WITHOUT posting the rest of the statement.



Again, you dodge the facts presented to you, because they make your posts look even sillier than they already are.

Justin clearly points out that none of those sons of Jupiter died via crucifixion (something YOU claimed happened to those figures).

For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus.


And notice also that NONE of them (Osiris, Attis, Dionysus, etc) rise from the dead, yet another nail in the coffin for your silly takes.

If Jesus' crucifixion was so original, what was he doing in Cyprus circa 3,000 BC... ?  



The Luke

Still trying to cite Horus as being crucified, which the accounts regarding him clearly DO NOT state. BTW, the source of that pic falsely claims that Osiris was crucified. He clearly was not. He was drowned by Set, as I've posted multiple times and can do so, yet again.

In fact, here's yet more off-the-mark musing from that site from which you got that pic:

In my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, I delve deeply into various parallels between the Jewish godman Jesus Christ and the Egyptian gods Horus and Osiris. Along with the claim that Horus was born on "December 25th" or the winter solstice of a virgin called Mery comes the contention that he was "crucified between two thieves," as Jesus is depicted to have been in the New Testament. Although I included this motif in my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, this assertion does not originate with me but can be found in older sources, as highlighted in Christ in Egypt ("CIE"), which contains a 40-page chapter on the subject entitled "Was Horus 'Crucified?,'" with 120 footnotes citing primary sources as well as the works of respected Egyptologists and other scholars in relevant fields. This chapter in CIE also provides 18 images to illustrate the various points, such as the abundance of Pagan gods and goddesses in cruciform or cross shapes.

Once again, Horus' mother was named Isis, with no "Meri/Mery" attached to her name. And, I don't know how many times this has to be said, but the date of December 25th has ZIP to do with Jesus Christ's birth. That's the date that was assigned to commemorate the birth of Christ by the Roman Empire LONG after Christianity had been established. Nothing in Scripture claims that Jesus was born on that date.

BTW, another claim you ducked and dodged, when called to task, was that the Bible points to Jesus' being born Dec. 25. You said you could show that. But, when asked to do so (to the shock of absolutely NO ONE), you did nothing of the sort.

[The Luke]

So what is this...?


...it predates Jesus by a thousand years.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

So what is this...?


...it predates Jesus by a thousand years.



The Luke

BIG DEAL!!! Horus wasn't crucified on it (or any other item).

And that, along with the lack of crucifixion for Attis, Osiris, Dionysus, et al., continues to put the torpedoes to your claims.

Recap:

And when we say also that… [Jesus] was produced without sexual union, and that He… was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we profess nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.” - Justin Martyr

Jesus was produced without sexual union (virgin birth). But, how do those sons of Jupiter come to fruition again?

But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions..

Jesus Christ was crucified. But how did those sons of Jupiter die again?

For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus.

Didn't you say that these dying-resurrecting godmen got crucified? Sorry!! Being struck by lightning, dismembered, or setting yourself on fire, DOES NOT EQUAL crucifixion.

[The Luke]

So what is this...?


...it predates Jesus by a thousand years.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

So what is this...?


...it predates Jesus by a thousand years.



The Luke

Whatever it is makes no difference (incidentally, it's a fertility symbol). The question is whether or not Horus was crucified. The answer to that is simply.....NO!!

[The Luke]

Whatever it is makes no difference. The question is whether or not Horus was crucified. The answer to that is simply.....NO!!

...so this is the crux of the problem.

I can't really, in good conscious, concede the points you think your article skimming has proven. Because I know that if you researched further you would find out that you are wrong.

And you are afraid to concede a single similarity. Not one. No matter how glaring... no matter how obvious.


Simple, easily verifiable fact, the object below predates Jesus by at least a thousand years:





The Luke

[big L dawg]

another sunday spent by Mcgay on a bodybuilding forum...Oh the irony..

[The Luke]

another sunday spent by Mcgay on a bodybuilding forum...Oh the irony..

...with all the research he's doing, how long before he has to question why so much of the older pagan stuff seems so much like the Christian crap?

You can tell exactly what stuff he's forcing himself to ignore because that's the stuff he quotes, yet never addresses... it's always either a blanket dismissal or he posts some non-sequitur reference and hopes no one notices.

I'd put money on him ignoring the pre-Christian cruciform/crucifix statues and symbols.

You can't Google a jpeg.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

...so this is the crux of the problem.

I can't really, in good conscious, concede the points you think your article skimming has proven. Because I know that if you researched further you would find out that you are wrong.

And you are afraid to concede a single similarity. Not one. No matter how glaring... no matter how obvious.


Simple, easily verifiable fact, the object below predates Jesus by at least a thousand years:


The Luke

The object below is a fertility symbol and has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ.

There are no "glaring" similarities, Luke. I've posted the Horus account, right here in black-and-white, for all to see. Nothing in the slightest resembles the birth, death, or resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I've asked you, for the better part of a year, to produce the goods. And, you come up with this foolishness. Just as you did with Attis, you are grasping at straws, looking for anything remotely resembling a cross to claim that such proves that Jesus was copied from Horus.

Of course, in your desperation to prop up this feeble flap, you forget that crucifixion was how the Romans executed people, particularly criminals.

Never mind the fact that the most "glaring" differences between the two bulldoze your argument to tha ground, namely:

Jesus was conceived of a virgin; Horus was not (he's the result of Isis getting her necrophilia-bestality freak on, with a DEAD Osiris in the underworld).

Jesus died via crucifixion; Horus did not (the one account of Horus' death has him being dismembered, with his mama asking a crocodile god to put him back together).

Your claims about Anup being a "baptizer", supposedly the forerunner to John the Baptist: DEAD WRONG!!!

Again, that's just the short list.

...with all the research he's doing, how long before he has to question why so much of the older pagan stuff seems so much like the Christian crap?

You can tell exactly what stuff he's forcing himself to ignore because that's the stuff he quotes, yet never addresses... it's always either a blanket dismissal or he posts some non-sequitur reference and hopes no one notices.

I'd put money on him ignoring the pre-Christian cruciform/crucifix statues and symbols.

You can't Google a jpeg.



The Luke

Oh really!!! How do you think I found the site from which you got that fertility symbol?

Any time someone quotes your post with that symbol on it, it gives the web address from which you got it. And, SURPRISE, SURPRISE   , it's from the same folks who came up with that stupid Zeitgeist video, the one that's been ripped apart by both Biblical scholars and skeptics alike (recall that last month's issue of "Skeptic" magazine shredded that video, pointing out its glaring errors and overall pitiful scholarship).

And, speaking of blanket dismissal, why are you ducking and hiding from the fact that you have YET to address your futile takes, regarding Justin Martyr's statements.

You claimed that all of the "dying resurrecting godmen" croaked via crucifixion. Justin (whose quotes you foolishly posted, WAAAAAAAAY out of context) states exactly how they die.

Maybe you should address that issue, instead of cowering as usual, especially behind the pointless statements of L Dawg.

[MCWAY]

I almost forgot. There's yet another glaring goof on your part:

His magical conception1 as the only begotten son2 of Osiris was anounced to his mother3 Isis-Mary4 by an angel5. She gave birth to him on the midwinter solstice6 in a cave7 attended by three8 solar deities and his adoptive earth-father Jo-Seph (or Jo-Seb).....

OOPS!! Seb is the father of OSIRIS, not Horus.

[loco]

For points 1 and 2 you can see my response to McWay's hysterics.

If you share McWay's aversion to proper research of the Mystery Religion, you could always just refer to Buddhism... The Sermon on the Mount has long been attributed to paraphrasing from Buddhism, and there is even a weird subculture tradition of Buddhism in which Buddha himself was crucified, yet rose from the dead.

Regarding Hesus/Esus... well I'm afraid you'll have to do a little more research than scanning a single paragraph encyclopedia entry. I know you guys have a list of approved Christian apologist websites and dismiss every other source... but if you want to know, you'll just have to research for yourself.

There's no point in me referring you to some link or source, which you then dismiss as being somehow "discredited". Do your own research, when you've done enough you'll start to agree.

Hesus is crucified... he dies and resurrects at Easter time for the sins of mankind. Just like ALL the Mystery Religion solar godmen (including Jesus). I've actually personally been inside two of these "caves" where a Mystery Religion dying/resurrecting godmen was supposedly born/died/resurrected... one of them 5,500 years old, the other 10,000+ years old.

This shit is old... old... old. Accept it.


The Luke

Luke, you started this thread.  You are the one who challenged us.

Challenge to Christians/Evangelicals:

Name or cite one single detail or incident in the Jesus story that is not:
-lifted from a previous Pagan Mystery Religion
-an astrological allegory

Bet you can't.


The Luke

PS... short succinct posts please so I can answer them.

I took your challenge and cited, not one, but two things about Jesus.  So I'm still waiting.  

1. Show me that Esus(Hesus) died by crucifixion.  

2. Show me that Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount was plagiarized from Buddhism.

You can't show us because you just made these up.

[MCWAY]

Luke, you started this thread.  You are the one who challenged us.

I took your challenge and cited, not one, but two things about Jesus.  So I'm still waiting.  

1. Show me that Esus(Hesus) died by crucifixion.  

2. Show me that Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount was plagiarized from Buddhism.

You can't show us because you just made these up.

It appears that this Zeitgeist video, among the primary sources from which Luke gets his claims, has been circulating around the web, quite a bit. Many people, like Luke, are blustering out these same "challenges" on other forums (i.e. Yahoo). Fortunately, many people (most of them Christians) who've responded to these "challenges" have done the research and shown these claims to be the supreme foolishness that they are.

We've been asking Luke to back his smack for almost a year now; yet, he's come up with SQUAT.

The heart of his claim is the easiest to dissect, namely this "dying-resurrecting godman blueprint" stuff.

Luke's claim that Justin Martyr admits to Jesus being plagiarized from these other figures is utterly ridiculous, especially with Justin's own words, saying the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Justin states Jesus was born, without sexual union; the sons of Jupiter (from which Jesus was supposedly crafted) were born by Jupiter, being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions.

Jesus died via crucifixion. These figures don't die in the same manner that Christ does. So far, we have as forms of death:

Osiris - Drowning
Attis - Self-castration
Dionysus - Mauled by wild boar
Hercules - Burned to death (self-inflicted)
Aesculapius - Struck by lightning
Bacchus - Dismemberment
Horus - Dismemberment
 
As Justin said (and this is the part that Luke "conveniently" left out), But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically.

2) More, importantly, they don't rise from the dead.

So, if Justin is making any accusations of mimicry, he maintains that such was poorly done, on the part of these evil forces. The imitations don't even come close.

[The Luke]

I hate to be a party pooper here...

But pretty much everything you guys are posting here is digging a hole with regard to the Kashmiri Issa.


The idea that you can discount every similarity between Horus/Dionysus/Bacchus/Orpheus based solely on a few discrepancies between the FOLKLORE versions of these gods and Jesus.... only highlights the fact that you aren't open to proper discussion. Compare like with like... Mystery Religion with Mystery Religion.

You discount these similar gods based on discrepancies...

But then you likewise dismiss Issa of Kashmir, who MATCHES JESUS IN EVERY SINGLE REGARD.


So which is it?

Why bother arguing discrepancies when you dismiss Jesus' exact duplicate based on what? Too many similarities?... that's just dishonest.


The Luke
PS- that's not a fertility symbol by the way; epic evasion.

[loco]

I hate to be a party pooper here...

But pretty much everything you guys are posting here is digging a hole with regard to the Kashmiri Issa.


The idea that you can discount every similarity between Horus/Dionysus/Bacchus/Orpheus based solely on a few discrepancies between the FOLKLORE versions of these gods and Jesus.... only highlights the fact that you aren't open to proper discussion. Compare like with like... Mystery Religion with Mystery Religion.

You discount these similar gods based on discrepancies...

But then you likewise dismiss Issa of Kashmir, who MATCHES JESUS IN EVERY SINGLE REGARD.


So which is it?

Why bother arguing discrepancies when you dismiss Jesus' exact duplicate based on what? Too many similarities?... that's just dishonest.


The Luke
PS- that's not a fertility symbol by the way; epic evasion.

Epic evasion, Luke!

I took your challenge and cited, not just one, but two things about Jesus.  So I'm still waiting.  

1. Show me that Esus(Hesus) died by crucifixion.  

2. Show me that Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount was plagiarized from Buddhism.

You can't show us because you just made these up.

[MCWAY]

I hate to be a party pooper here...

But pretty much everything you guys are posting here is digging a hole with regard to the Kashmiri Issa.


The idea that you can discount every similarity between Horus/Dionysus/Bacchus/Orpheus based solely on a few discrepancies between the FOLKLORE versions of these gods and Jesus.... only highlights the fact that you aren't open to proper discussion. Compare like with like... Mystery Religion with Mystery Religion.

I see you're bouncing from figure to figure, yet again. As for the rest of those figures, what are these alleged similarities, Luke?

The one you claimed were similarities turned out to be everything BUT that, as shown by the accounts on those figures and the words of Justin Martyr, himself.

So now, it's back to your patented excuse-making.

You have NOT, I repeat, NOT shown the so-called mystery religion versions of these figures or that such is virtually identical with that of Jesus Christ. Recall that Loco and I have been asking you to do that FOR NEARLY A YEAR.

Instead, you keep squealing about "that the 'folklore' version", when the facts show that your claims are categorically false.

You discount these similar gods based on discrepancies...

That's right, boy genius, because your pitiful excuse for a "challenge" was to show the differences between Jesus Christ and those figures.

When Loco and I did so, with ease, you went into cluck-and-duck mode, trying to contort the accounts (particularly regarding the deaths of Attis and Osiris) into crucifixion, to support your rickety claims.

But then you likewise dismiss Issa of Kashmir, who MATCHES JESUS IN EVERY SINGLE REGARD.

No, it doesn't. One (as has been shown numerous times) you don't even have your facts straight about this one.

So which is it?

Why bother arguing discrepancies when you dismiss Jesus' exact duplicate based on what? Too many similarities?... that's just dishonest.


The Luke
PS- that's not a fertility symbol by the way; epic evasion.

Again, you claimed in your "challenge" that we could find NO discrepancies. Loco and I lost count of how many were actually there. That's why you keep foolishly trying to use vague tree references to twist Attis' self-castration into a crucifixion, AND why you keep mumbling about the "Day of Joy" being the equivalent of Easter, even though:

- The "Day of Joy" was a late edition to the Attis/Cybele cult and was established long after Christianity has taken root.

- The "Day of Joy" pays homage to CYBELE, not Attis.

And speaking of evasions, you HAVE YET to address the little matter of your claims about those figures dying via crucifixion (using Justin's words), while Justin clearly described the method in which they died, later stating, But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically

P.S. Yes, that pic IS a fertility symbol, called the Idol of Pomos. Plus, the early Christians of the first century DID NOT glorify the use or the symbol of a cross. Once again, that came courtesy of the Roman empire AFTER Christianity became accepted.





The Idol of Pomos, is a prehistoric sculpture from the Cypriot village of Pomos. It dates back to the Chalcolithic period, circa the 30th century BC.


Nowadays it is on display in the Cyprus Archeological Museum in Nicosia.

Symbolism


The sculpture represents a woman with her arms spread. It was probably used as a fertility symbol. Large numbers of this kind of sculptures were found in Cyprus. Smaller versions were worn as amulets around the neck.



http://www.mlahanas.de/Cyprus/LX/IdolOfPomos.html

That's a fertiliy symbol, NOT a cross that has anything to do with Jesus Christ. Got any more foolishness to spout?

[The Luke]

The sculpture represents a woman with her arms spread. It was probably used as a fertility symbol. Large numbers of this kind of sculptures were found in Cyprus. Smaller versions were worn as amulets around the neck.


http://www.mlahanas.de/Cyprus/LX/IdolOfPomos.html

That's a fertiliy symbol, NOT a cross that has anything to do with Jesus Christ. Got any more foolishness to spout?

...a female fertility symbol with no breasts; no hips; not pregnant and for some reason, herself (?) wearing a cross?

You'll just believe anything you read, won't you.

It's pretty obvious that is a representation of the Southern Cross Constellation.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...a female fertility symbol with no breasts; no hips; not pregnant and for some reason, herself (?) wearing a cross?

You'll just believe anything you read, won't you.

It's pretty obvious that is a representation of the Southern Cross Constellation.


The Luke

Look who's talking!!!


Yet again, you made a silly claim, using that pic of a fertility symbol, which the folks at Stellar Productions tried to pass off, as "proof" that Horus was crucified (and thus, was a precursor to Jesus Christ).

Now, after nearly two weeks of hiding, you come up with yet another excuse.

Your desperation (and that of Stellar Productions) to use anything remotely resembling a cross to spout foolishness about Jesus being copied from Hours continues to be slapstick comedy.

But, lest you think this is a mere abberation:





http://www.ucoin.net/users/tag/idol_of_pomos/?uid=3

Here's more:


The cruciform statue which is represented on the 1 and 2- euro coins dates back to the Chalcolithicperiod (3000 BC). It is known as the “Idol of Pomos”, the village where it has been found.

The size of similar statues or idols could vary enormously: from a few centimeters to statues of 1.5 m. Small examples were sometimes worn as charms. The outstretched form of the arms of the “Idol of Pomos” probably refers to its function as a fertility symbol. This characteristic example of the island’s prehistoric art reflects Cyprus’s place at the heart of civilisation and Antiquity.





http://www.nbbmuseum.be/2008/02/cyprus-and-malta.htm

[MCWAY]

...a female fertility symbol with no breasts; no hips; not pregnant and for some reason, herself (?) wearing a cross?


The Luke

And yet more:

2- Figurines: The human form appeared in the art of the earliest inhabitants of Cyprus and remained as dominant theme throughout the antiquity. With a few exceptions the figures of the Chalcolithic Period like the Neolithic ones were quite small, no more than 19 centimeters in height. As we already said the Neolithic figures are rather elementary representations of the human form: these are figures with the arms and legs reduced to mere stumps. The latest example of this type including one from Lemba which is 36 cm. tall, are contemporary with another variety called cruciform figures typical of the Chalcolithic Era (4000/3900-2500 BC.). Shaped like a cross, almost invariably made of soft stone (bluish green picrolite or serpentine), this type has now been shown to have developed within Cyprus from the stump-like form. The cruciform category includes some figures of terra-cotta. An interesting repertoire in that material shows the ingenuity of the Chalcolithic artist. These figures are either sexless or with small breasts in relief.  The arms are the most characteristic feature of this category of figures. They are stretched out sideways stiffly and are full-length. They are always represented in a sitting position on a high seat with their knees bended. There is nothing like them in prehistoric culture. Their symbolic significance, however, is totally different, and not immediately apparent. Once again it is also connected with the theme of survival and their mission is to act as fertility cults. Many of them were pierced which reminds us that they were worn as pendants. Some were found as miniatures on necklaces. They were probably worn exclusively to encourage, by sympathetic magic, a new birth.



http://emuonline.emu.edu.tr/demo/ARCH329/lecture4/calcolithic.htm

So much for the "no breast" excuse!!!





PS - If you click on the arrows on the pics in the middle under the "Figurines" paragraph", guess what you find: THE VERY SAME PIC you posted weeks ago.

[The Luke]

2- Figurines: The human form appeared in the art of the earliest inhabitants of Cyprus and remained as dominant theme throughout the antiquity. With a few exceptions the figures of the Chalcolithic Period like the Neolithic ones were quite small, no more than 19 centimeters in height. As we already said the Neolithic figures are rather elementary representations of the human form: these are figures with the arms and legs reduced to mere stumps. The latest example of this type including one from Lemba which is 36 cm. tall, are contemporary with another variety called cruciform figures typical of the Chalcolithic Era (4000/3900-2500 BC.). Shaped like a cross, almost invariably made of soft stone (bluish green picrolite or serpentine), this type has now been shown to have developed within Cyprus from the stump-like form. The cruciform category includes some figures of terra-cotta. An interesting repertoire in that material shows the ingenuity of the Chalcolithic artist. These figures are either sexless or with small breasts in relief.  The arms are the most characteristic feature of this category of figures. They are stretched out sideways stiffly and are full-length. They are always represented in a sitting position on a high seat with their knees bended. There is nothing like them in prehistoric culture. Their symbolic significance, however, is totally different, and not immediately apparent. Once again it is also connected with the theme of survival and their mission is to act as fertility cults. Many of them were pierced which reminds us that they were worn as pendants. Some were found as miniatures on necklaces. They were probably worn exclusively to encourage, by sympathetic magic, a new birth.

...why not highlight this bit?

Selective much?


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...why not highlight this bit?

Selective much?


The Luke

Highlighting that part doesn't help your silly quip one bit.


They're called crucifrom figures, because they're shaped like crosses. Whether they're sexless or with small breasts, they are STILL USED as FERTILITY SYMBOLS.

The point, which you (of course) missed by a country mile, is that this figure don't have a blessed thing to do with Jesus Christ whatsoever. Nor do they have anything to do with Horus, allegedly being crucified (which no account of Horus states as the cause of his death).