School can expel lesbian students, court rules

[tonymctones]

Agencies are "publicly funded".

My point is that if it's not publicly funded, then you don't have to be bound by the rules of equality.

again there are plenty of agencies that lean towards services for specific ppl again weak arguement.

[Straw Man]

Why stop there? Fornication is a 10 commandment, why not let schools toss out kids who were born out of wedlock. Never ends.

How about being nice to people? Treating others well? That is what I think a true Christian does, but the meaning of Christianity is changing, it's becoming more a matter of judging others - not extending a hand.

how about expel kids who have pre-marital sex or even better even just suspected of having premarital sex.

[Dos Equis]

Why stop there? Fornication is a 10 commandment, why not let schools toss out kids who were born out of wedlock. Never ends.

How about being nice to people? Treating others well? That is what I think a true Christian does, but the meaning of Christianity is changing, it's becoming more a matter of judging others - not extending a hand.

I'm pretty sure kids who get pregnant at Christian schools are removed from the school. 

It is entirely possible to be nice without endorsing conduct.  It doesn't sound like you're talking about being nice.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you think the school should accept behavior that violates their faith?

[Straw Man]

I'm pretty sure kids who get pregnant at Christian schools are removed from the school. 

It is entirely possible to be nice without endorsing conduct.  It doesn't sound like you're talking about being nice.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you think the school should accept behavior that violates their faith?

how about just a rumor that a kid are having sex and maybe a MySpace page where they talk about sex.....although when asked the kid denies having sex. 

Shouldn't that kid also be expelled?

[tonymctones]

how about just a rumor that a kid are having sex and maybe a MySpace page where they talk about sex.....although when asked the kid denies having sex. 

Shouldn't that kid also be expelled?

I think you need more than rumors and since these kids both admitted to saying they where lesbian and hugging and kissing as well as one saying they where on myspace and one saying they werent sure its more than a rumor.

[Dos Equis]

how about just a rumor that a kid are having sex and maybe a MySpace page where they talk about sex.....although when asked the kid denies having sex. 

Shouldn't that kid also be expelled?

It's up to the school, the school's policy, and the results of any investigation done by the school. 

[tu_holmes]

again there are plenty of agencies that lean towards services for specific ppl again weak arguement.

Totally not... Public agencies have to abide by PUBLIC laws

Private (non-profit) agencies do not.

Ridiculous for you to say it's weak... It's exactly why the courts ruled in favor of the school... Apparently it's not that weak after all.

[Straw Man]

It's up to the school, the school's policy, and the results of any investigation done by the school. 

let's just say that it's exactly like the process and results that is the topic of this thread (i.e. allegation, same exact results of investigation, etc..)

the only difference is the "immoral behaviour" is pre-marital sex rather than homosexuality

should they get the punishment?

[tonymctones]

Totally not... Public agencies have to abide by PUBLIC laws

Private (non-profit) agencies do not.

Ridiculous for you to say it's weak... It's exactly why the courts ruled in favor of the school... Apparently it's not that weak after all.

what im saying is that there are public agencies that recieve funding from the government that "discriminate"...your telling me that groups like the NAACP, gay and lesibian groups dont recieve government funding or support?

[Dos Equis]

let's just say that it's exactly like the process and results that is the topic of this thread (i.e. allegation, same exact results of investigation, etc..)

the only difference is the "immoral behaviour" is pre-marital sex rather than homosexuality

should they get the punishment?

Of course.  The they should get whatever punishment the school determines is appropriate consistent with the school's policy, which is spelled out in the school handbook, and accepted by every student and parent as a condition of the student's attendance at the school. 

[Straw Man]

Of course.  The they should get whatever punishment the school determines is appropriate consistent with the school's policy, which is spelled out in the school handbook, and accepted by every student and parent as a condition of the student's attendance at the school. 

Let's assume that whatever "handbook" they were given it didn't explicitly say that if you're gay then you will be expelled and also lacks the same specificity about premarital sex

Let's also assume that everything is exactly the same except that the suspected transgression is pre-marital sex rather than homosxuality

You're saying in this example the kids in question should also be expelled?

[Dos Equis]

Let's assume that whatever "handbook" they were given it didn't explicitly say that if you're gay then you will be expelled and also lacks the same specificity about premarital sex

Let's also assume that everything is exactly the same except that the suspected transgression is pre-marital sex rather than homosxuality

You're saying in this example the kids in question should also be expelled?

I'm saying the school should is free to investigate what it believes is conduct inconsistent with its beliefs and enforce the rules that each student agreed to follow when they entered the school.  Students have been suspended and/or expelled from Christian schools for premarital sex for ages.  There doesn't have to be a list of specific conduct.  Anyone with half a brain who attends a Christian school knows what they can and cannot do.  Most of them don't even allow public displays of affection, much less sex.  If the student disagrees with the school's policies, the student should go to public school or a secular private school. 

[Straw Man]

I'm saying the school should is free to investigate what it believes is conduct inconsistent with its beliefs and enforce the rules that each student agreed to follow when they entered the school.  Students have been suspended and/or expelled from Christian schools for premarital sex for ages.  There doesn't have to be a list of specific conduct.  Anyone with half a brain who attends a Christian school knows what they can and cannot do.  Most of them don't even allow public displays of affection, much less sex.  If the student disagrees with the school's policies, the student should go to public school or a secular private school. 

I have only gone to Catholic schools and never Christian schools so I don't know what is probably obvious to you and many others on what you can and cannot do.  Can you tell me what other things you cannot do or merely be suspected of doing that will get you expelled?

[Dos Equis]

I have only gone to Catholic schools and never Christian schools so I don't know what is probably obvious to you and many others on what you can and cannot do.  Can you tell me what other things you cannot do or merely be suspected of doing that will get you expelled?

It's too obvious.  Ask any kid who attends a Christian school.  I'm sure you can find one or two around somewhere.     

[Straw Man]

It's too obvious.  Ask any kid who attends a Christian school.  I'm sure you can find one or two around somewhere.     

Bum,

I'm asking you

an adult who knows all this stuff

I've already admitted I don't know the answer

I know it's obvious to you so please stop being coy and just educate us

[Dos Equis]

Bum,

I'm asking you

an adult who knows all this stuff

I've already admitted I don't know the answer

I know it's obvious to you so please stop being coy and just educate us

Who is "us"?  Nah.  You're on your own. 

[Straw Man]

Who is "us"?  Nah.  You're on your own. 

fine

I'm asking for me

let's pretend I'm your neighbor and the only good school around is this school and I choose to send my kid there.

rather than talking to a child (as you suggest)  I'm trying to talk to an adult

please tell me what anyone with "half a brain" should know about what can and cannot be done while attending a Christian school

[Straw Man]

It's too obvious.  Ask any kid who attends a Christian school.  I'm sure you can find one or two around somewhere.     

Bum - I looked around but I don't know any kids who attend Christians schools.

What are the odd's you can actually act like an adult and clue me in on the "obvious" stuf that every kid who attends Christians schools knows what is right and wrong

[Dos Equis]

  I've heard picking your nose results in an automatic suspension. 

[Straw Man]

  I've heard picking your nose results in an automatic suspension. 

let's review - you claim the reasons for expulsion are obvious and anyone with half a brain would know what they are yet you're unable to follow up and support your own claim.   I try to treat you like an adult and yet you still act like a child.

[MCWAY]

Why stop there? Fornication is a 10 commandment, why not let schools toss out kids who were born out of wedlock. Never ends.

How about being nice to people? Treating others well? That is what I think a true Christian does, but the meaning of Christianity is changing, it's becoming more a matter of judging others - not extending a hand.

That makes absolutely no sense. One, if those students were caught fornicating, they'd be tossed out of school, as Beach Bum mentioned earlier. Two, it's the fornicating, not the end result of that fornicating (the child) that the sin.

For all of your emotional arguments, you are dodging the simple fact that these girls violated the school rules, about which they were aware. They agree to abide by those standards but they broke them. That's why they got the boot.

Enforcing the rules and regulations is hardly a dereliction of Christian values. Where you equate "being nice to people" to lack of standard enforcement I'd like to know.

Let's just say that the students were merely suspended but allowed to return. That would be a form of mercy. Still, there'd be those who complain about that.

[Straw Man]

That makes absolutely no sense. One, if those students were caught fornicating, they'd be tossed out of school, as Beach Bum mentioned earlier. Two, it's the fornicating, not the end result of that fornicating (the child) that the sin.

For all of your emotional arguments, you are dodging the simple fact that these girls violated the school rules, about which they were aware. They agree to abide by those standards but they broke them. That's why they got the boot.

Enforcing the rules and regulations is hardly a dereliction of Christian values. Where you equate "being nice to people" to lack of standard enforcement I'd like to know.

Let's just say that the students were merely suspended but allowed to return. That would be a form of mercy. Still, there'd be those who complain about that.

there is no proof that these kids violated school rules...i.e. there was nothing the story about any rule about being suspected of being gay.  All we know is that they were suspected of being gay and someone at the school decided that was grounds for expulsion.  I would be amazed if they actually had a written rule that you could not be gay. 

For CQ;s example - how about just kids who are suspected of being fornicators .i.e. someone heard them talking about and maybe they mentioned it on a My Space page but, like in this case, they denied it when asked.     Thats pretty much the scenario here.

[MCWAY]

there is no proof that these kids violated school rules...i.e. there was nothing the story about any rule about being suspected of being gay.  All we know is that they were suspected of being gay and someone at the school decided that was grounds for expulsion.  I would be amazed if they actually had a written rule that you could not be gay. 

That's hardly anything about which to be amazed. Christian schools, by and large, make no bones about their feelings toward homosexuality and neither does this school.

V. GOOD WORKS AND PRAYER

We believe that faith in Jesus Christ always leads a believer to produce works that are pleasing to God. “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead” (James 2:17). As a branch in Christ the vine, a Christian produces good fruit (John 15:5).

We believe that works pleasing to God are works of love, for “love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:10). Faith, however, does not set up its own standards to determine what is loving (Matthew 15:9). True faith delights to do only what agrees with God’s holy will. That will of God is revealed in the Bible, particularly in the Ten Commandments as their content is repeated in the New Testament. In wrestling with current moral problems, the Christian will therefore seek answers from God’s law.

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (“mercy killing”).

We believe that the Sixth Commandment regulates marriage and the family. God instituted marriage as a lifelong union of one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6). It is the only proper context for sexual intimacy and the procreation of children. A marriage can be ended without sin only when God ends the marriage through the death of one of the spouses. Nevertheless, a Christian may obtain a divorce if his or her spouse has broken the marriage through adultery (Matthew 19:9) or malicious desertion (1 Corinthians 7:15). The Sixth Commandment forbids all sexual intimacy apart from marriage, including homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9,10).

http://www.clhs-chawks.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=95&Itemid=207

Having attended Christian schools myself, I know firsthand that they have handbooks that the students and parents read, regarding proper conduct and disciplinary actions for violations of that conduct.

For CQ;s example - how about just kids who are suspected of being fornicators .i.e. someone heard them talking about and maybe they mentioned it on a My Space page but, like in this case, they denied it when asked.     Thats pretty much the scenario here.

The principal claims to have an admission from both girls that they were lesbians. In this suit, the issue is that the girls were expelled for being lesbians or exhibiting lesbian behavior, not that they were merely suspected of being gay, denied that allegation, but got kicked out anyway.

To top it all off, instead of addressing the issue at hand, these girls try to turn the tables and claim that the principal was lusting after them.

[Straw Man]

Having attended Christian schools myself, I know firsthand that they have handbooks that the students and parents read, regarding proper conduct and disciplinary actions for violations of that conduct.

The principal claims to have an admission from both girls that they were lesbians. In this suit, the issue is that the girls were expelled for being lesbians or exhibiting lesbian behavior, not that they were merely suspected of being gay, denied that allegation, but got kicked out anyway.

why no mention of the "handbook" in the story.  That would seem to make it cut and dried and probably would never have even gone to court.  I suspect if there is a handbook it has nothing in it about being gay.

from the story in the first post there seems to be some dispute over what the girls actually admitted.  The principal says one thing and the girls say another:

"According to the principal, who called each girl out of class separately, both admitted they had hugged and kissed each other and told other students they were lesbians. The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends."

I guess things could be worse.  If they were in Iran they'd probably be whipped and then hung.  Luckily the religious nutjobs in this country can only expel you.

[MCWAY]

why no mention of the "handbook" in the story.  That would seem to make it cut and dried and probably would never have even gone to court.  I suspect if there is a handbook it has nothing in it about being gay.

The School's statement of faith spells it out, in no uncertain terms, that homosexuality is wrong, according to their standards. Why would the school's handbook be any different?

from the story in the first post there seems to be some dispute over what the girls actually admitted.  The principal says one thing and the girls say another:

"According to the principal, who called each girl out of class separately, both admitted they had hugged and kissed each other and told other students they were lesbians. The girls said they admitted only that they loved each other as friends."

I guess things could be worse.  If they were in Iran they'd probably be whipped and then hung.  Luckily the religious nutjobs in this country can only expel you.

If they merely loved each other as friends, they would have denied any allegations of their being lesbians or answered the question of their being gay with a simple "No", putting this issue is put to rest. Instead, they dodged the issue and accuse the principal of having the hots for them.