Author Topic: Obama calls for action after NK sets off nuke test (Read 7405 times)

Deicide · « **Reply #75 on:** May 25, 2009, 12:54:10 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 12:38:14 PM

Patriot act as ive already stated is i believe to be unconstitutional but its necessity could be argued especially in this day of age.

what are the other things?

Illegal invasion of Iraq which has been a disaster in every way possible with ZERO benefits, torture, overspending, etc.

tonymctones · « **Reply #76 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:00:31 PM »

Quote from: Deicide on May 25, 2009, 12:54:10 PM

Illegal invasion of Iraq which has been a disaster in every way possible with ZERO benefits, torture, overspending, etc.

how was the invasion of iraq illegal?

I wasnt aware that those were prosecutable offenses

headhuntersix · « **Reply #77 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:01:11 PM »

Ok again we're going to be clear and factual here....what violations? As u have laid out....torture isn't in the Constitution, overspending isn't in the Constitution...Iraq was voted on by the Congress and passed, which is in the Constitution. The major Dem players saw the same intel as the Bush admin and still voted to ok it. I think u need to look whats actually in the Constitution. Obama is over spending, government sponsored insurance isn't, neither is the cradle to grave BS being pushed by the Dems. U can easily argue that elements of the Patriot act aren't and I don't have a problme with it.

Al Doggity · « **Reply #78 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:02:40 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 12:41:34 PM

your arguement is basically saying that we shouldnt worry about it until they can hit us and thats ignorant...If they start actions to prepare to hit us you need to nip that in the bud...You dont wait untill they have all but the last piece of the puzzle in place before you take action.

That's not my argument at all.
You are the one who has, repeatedly, floated some bull comparing the admin.'s reaction to the missile test to their yet-to-be-determined reaction to the latest nuclear test. My point is not that there is no need to worry: it's that we know the cowboy tact to international security doesn't work. Our reactions must be smart and measured. Korea already has missiles at its disposal. The missile it tested could never have reached America, even if it worked (which- and this is important- it didn't). Almost everyone knowledgeable about the situation feels this is a ploy for some type of financial leverage.

Once again, you are advocating "nipping something in the bud". How do you plan on doing that?

Al Doggity · « **Reply #79 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:03:57 PM »

Quote from: headhuntersix on May 25, 2009, 12:43:58 PM

Thats a game analogy and these are nuclear weapons....are u a child?

Hey, I'll be the first to admit it wasn't a good analogy, but I didn't introduce it.

headhuntersix · « **Reply #80 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:05:59 PM »

Smart and measured....got us here, all the way back to Bill Clinton. Diplomacy doesn't work with this guy. 6 party talks don't work either.This failure of diplomacy clearly shows the need for more diplomacy. The Six Party Talks have done nothing to stop N. Korea's nuclear program. Obviously this demonstrates the importance of redoubling efforts to conduct more Six Party Talks. Just remember...missile defense remains unproven. However, when it comes to diplomacy, especially 'smart' and 'tough' diplomacy, everyday is a new day.

tonymctones · « **Reply #81 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:08:52 PM »

Quote from: Al Doggity on May 25, 2009, 01:02:40 PM

That's not my argument at all.
You are the one who has, repeatedly, floated some bull comparing the admin.'s reaction to the missile test to their yet-to-be-determined reaction to the latest nuclear test. My point is not that there is no need to worry: it's that we know the cowboy tact to international security doesn't work. Our reactions must be smart and measured. Korea already has missiles at its disposal. The missile it tested could never have reached America, even if it worked (which- and this is important- it didn't). Almost everyone knowledgeable about the situation feels this is a ploy for some type of financial leverage.

Once again, you are advocating "nipping something in the bud". How do you plan on doing that?

LOL OMG SANCTIONS!!!!!!!!!! to start with...

LOL you think that if the first missle launch test would have been meet with more opposition they would have continued down the same road?

Man you really need to read the thread before you start posting in it...I already stated that its more then likely posturing to get more in negotiations...

smart and measured like another letter perhaps?

tonymctones · « **Reply #82 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:09:26 PM »

again doggity what sanctions where put on NK after the missle launch?

headhuntersix · « **Reply #83 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:11:41 PM »

Hey Al u want an answer right...having been in SKorea 3 times this past year and 4 or 5 more in my 16 year career, I'll give u one. First off they should have waxed the sat. That would have sent a message world wide that Obama means business. Now we know that he's the usual UN sanctions, strongly worried letter type of Dem. Second u need to officially isolate them, blockade em....and work out a real deal with China. We already have a framework in place with them, if and when the North fails. They don't want them to go bacause of the humanitarian crisis. So I guess u agree to foot that bill...they just seal their border. We estimate that the Chinese will invade nKorea once it falls, to set up a buffer zone between the refugee's and its border. Thats a start....

Al Doggity · « **Reply #84 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:12:48 PM »

Quote from: headhuntersix on May 25, 2009, 01:05:59 PM

Smart and measured....got us here, all the way back to Bill Clinton. Diplomacy doesn't work with this guy. 6 party talks don't work either.This failure of diplomacy clearly shows the need for more diplomacy. The Six Party Talks have done nothing to stop N. Korea's nuclear program. Obviously this demonstrates the importance of redoubling efforts to conduct more Six Party Talks. Just remember...missile defense remains unproven. However, when it comes to diplomacy, especially 'smart' and 'tough' diplomacy, everyday is a new day.

How can you talk out of both sides of your mouth like this? As if your posts in other threads disappear when you click on a different thread. You know damned well that NKorea is never going to disarm and their nuclear program is almost entirely about getting concessions from the west. You literally posted that today. They have no capabilities to actually attack America with nuclear weapons, and they would certainly lose a war with us. Ufortunately, it comes down to a game of time and diplomacy.

Deicide · « **Reply #85 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:12:57 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 01:00:31 PM

how was the invasion of iraq illegal?

I wasnt aware that those were prosecutable offenses

No Declaration of War, which makes ALL of our bungled, costly and bloody interventions since after WWII ILLEGAL. Besides, GW sent men to their death on a pack of lies which I think should be prosecuted.

headhuntersix · « **Reply #86 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:13:51 PM »

Speaking on ABC's "Good Morning America," Mullen said: "We believe that North Korea continues to pursue a nuclear weapons program. A North Korea with nuclear weapons poses a great danger to its neighbors. They've also recently launched longer-range missiles pursuing literally ICBM kinds of missiles."

"In the long run," Mullen said, "a state like North Korea with nuclear weapons and the ability to fire those kind of missiles long range pose a threat to the United States."

North Korea earlier this year rejected a plan for additional U.S. food assistance and kicked out five groups distributing American aid in the country.

State Department spokesman Robert Wood said at the time, in mid-March, that the North gave no reason for refusing to accept U.S. food aid. But the rejection was worrisome to aid workers and U.S. officials.

North Korea faces chronic food shortages and has relied on outside aid to help feed its 23 million people since famine reportedly killed as many as 2 million in the 1990s, a result of natural disasters and mismanagement.

headhuntersix · « **Reply #87 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:14:45 PM »

Quote from: Deicide on May 25, 2009, 01:12:57 PM

No Declaration of War, which makes ALL of our bungled, costly and bloody interventions since after WWII ILLEGAL. Besides, GW sent men to their death on a pack of lies which I think should be prosecuted.

I was one of those men, I'd doing just fine with it. Ur a head in the sand appeasment kind of guy. What were u doing on 911?

Al Doggity · « **Reply #88 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:15:32 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 01:09:26 PM

again doggity what sanctions where put on NK after the missle launch?

The resolutions never passed. NK has allies in the security council which caused it to stall.

tonymctones · « **Reply #89 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:18:02 PM »

Quote from: Al Doggity on May 25, 2009, 01:15:32 PM

The resolutions never passed. NK has allies in the security council which caused it to stall.

thats exactly right, so none

headhuntersix · « **Reply #90 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:18:32 PM »

"We know that North Korea was in the process of building the nuclear weapons’ facility in Syria that Israel bombed and destroyed — it therefore has an active foreign policy on behalf of what used to be called the axis of evil. North Korea is intimately connected with the Iranian nuclear weapon now thought to be in the final stages of production. This April, North Korea launched a long-range missile that flew over the Pacific. And maybe things are coming together. Holding out that famous open hand of his, President Obama expects to negotiate Iran into desisting with its nuclear development. The only realistic alternative is a military strike by the United States or Israel, or both. But in that event, North Korea might freeze the situation by brandishing its nuclear weapon on behalf of Iran. "

Time is running out. The more sincere Obama is, the more naïve he seems.

They couldn't even get a "strongly worried letter" agreed upon. So much for hope and change. We have the JV team running our foreign policy. They think we're weak now, atleast under Bush, they were scared.

Deicide · « **Reply #91 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:21:53 PM »

Quote from: headhuntersix on May 25, 2009, 01:14:45 PM

I was one of those men, I'd doing just fine with it. Ur a head in the sand appeasment kind of guy. What were u doing on 911?

Using 9/11 as an argument is getting old, especially since it wasn't a nation state that attacked us; here we could have used Letters of Marque and Reprisal which have been used in the early history of the country without invading the whole place with an army.

Would not having gotten involved in Vietnam been appeasement? 60,000 dead Americans, a economic disaster and consequences that continue today? Totally unnecessary. I believe in a strong military BUT I don't believe in unnecessary wars.

Al Doggity · « **Reply #92 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:21:59 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 01:00:31 PM

how was the invasion of iraq illegal?

I wasnt aware that those were prosecutable offenses

Actually, it's ironic. You've been making the argument that NKorea should be punished by America for violating a condition of a UN treaty, but the Iraq war was a violation of the UN charter. We went to war claiming Iraq was an imminent threat to us, even though the UN has to make that determination (and they didn't). There were never any WMDs found, before or after the start of the war, so it was technically a UN violation.

Al Doggity · « **Reply #93 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:24:58 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 01:18:02 PM

thats exactly right, so none

So, what is your point? You claimed that Obama should have done more. Other than introducing the resolutions through the UN, what more should he have done? You still haven't said how or why you would have taken action outside of the UN were you in his shoes.

How should he have "nipped it in the bud" without war or sanctions or diplomacy?

Deicide · « **Reply #94 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:36:33 PM »

Quote from: Al Doggity on May 25, 2009, 01:21:59 PM

Actually, it's ironic. You've been making the argument that NKorea should be punished by America for violating a condition of a UN treaty, but the Iraq war was a violation of the UN charter. We went to war claiming Iraq was an imminent threat to us, even though the UN has to make that determination (and they didn't). There were never any WMDs found, before or after the start of the war, so it was technically a UN violation.

American exceptionalism, basically the USA can do no wrong, regardless of what it does and if you criticise its actions, you are Unamerican, a hater, a lib or a host of other bad things.

As long as we do it, it's ok but if others do it, it's bad.

tonymctones · « **Reply #95 on:** May 25, 2009, 03:39:25 PM »

Quote from: Al Doggity on May 25, 2009, 01:21:59 PM

Actually, it's ironic. You've been making the argument that NKorea should be punished by America for violating a condition of a UN treaty, but the Iraq war was a violation of the UN charter. We went to war claiming Iraq was an imminent threat to us, even though the UN has to make that determination (and they didn't). There were never any WMDs found, before or after the start of the war, so it was technically a UN violation.

LOL goodness gracious you retards need to read, ive stated many times i think iraq was a big mistake, you want to punish the US for that go ahead...second iraq actually had broken UN agreements prior to the US invasion im not justifying the invasion just putting things into perspective for you.

Quote from: Al Doggity on May 25, 2009, 01:24:58 PM

So, what is your point? You claimed that Obama should have done more. Other than introducing the resolutions through the UN, what more should he have done? You still haven't said how or why you would have taken action outside of the UN were you in his shoes.

How should he have "nipped it in the bud" without war or sanctions or diplomacy?

I would have been ok with sanctions, even if they were only sanctions enforced by the US and not the UN. My point is that we shouldnt have sat there and done nothing which is what you are arguing. We very well could have shot the missle down if we had wanted to, what would have been a more diplomatic way would have been to layout certain actions that would be taken if NK launched and when they did follow through with those actions, sactions, blockade, military if thats what needed to be done.

tonymctones · « **Reply #96 on:** May 25, 2009, 03:42:26 PM »

Quote from: Deicide on May 25, 2009, 01:36:33 PM

American exceptionalism, basically the USA can do no wrong, regardless of what it does and if you criticise its actions, you are Unamerican, a hater, a lib or a host of other bad things.

As long as we do it, it's ok but if others do it, it's bad.

goodness gracious deicide your beginning to sound like an idiot again...Again im not a party hard liner like others on here i happen to be more conservative then liberal so of course alot of obamas actions i dont agree with bush wasnt very conservative so i was against many of his actions as well. If the UN wants to punish the US then fine, i think what we have learned from this and Iraq breaking UN agreements US going into Iraq without UN permission is that the UN is basically useless and if you want something done you need to find alternative ways.

Deicide · « **Reply #97 on:** May 25, 2009, 03:47:42 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 03:42:26 PM

goodness gracious deicide your beginning to sound like an idiot again...Again im not a party hard liner like others on here i happen to be more conservative then liberal so of course alot of obamas actions i dont agree with bush wasnt very conservative so i was against many of his actions as well. If the UN wants to punish the US then fine, i think what we have learned from this and Iraq breaking UN agreements US going into Iraq without UN permission is that the UN is basically useless and if you want something done you need to find alternative ways.

I think you missed my point. We do things to people in countries such as Guatemala, Chile and Indonesia, horrible things like assassination, overthrowing governments, participating in genocide and we do it because we feel like it, without batting an eyelash. If you believe in individual liberty as I do then you must also believe that non-threatening countries have a right to be left alone. I am not talking about Iraq now. People have a right to be left alone and so do nations.

Why did Indonesians deserve this for example?

tonymctones · « **Reply #98 on:** May 25, 2009, 03:57:05 PM »

Quote from: Deicide on May 25, 2009, 03:47:42 PM

I think you missed my point. We do things to people in countries such as Guatemala, Chile and Indonesia, horrible things like assassination, overthrowing governments, participating in genocide and we do it because we feel like it, without batting an eyelash. If you believe in individual liberty as I do then you must also believe that non-threatening countries have a right to be left alone. I am not talking about Iraq now. People have a right to be left alone and so do nations.

Why did Indonesians deserve this for example?

I got your point, i dont see how it really applies to me as i already stated iraq was a mistake?

LOL dude you think we are the only country that does this? PPL cant be left alone deicide i know thats a novel concept bro but its just plain silly, this isnt a hippies utopia the idea of ill leave you alone if you leave me alone doesnt work in todays society. The world is far to intertwined, maybe its b/c I dont buy into the whole moral high ground thing which i still dont understand why you do as an atheist but anywho. Other countries affairs effect us if not directly then indirectly, im not justifying shit deicide just giving you something to think about.

Deicide · « **Reply #99 on:** May 25, 2009, 04:06:01 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on May 25, 2009, 03:57:05 PM

I got your point, i dont see how it really applies to me as i already stated iraq was a mistake?

LOL dude you think we are the only country that does this? PPL cant be left alone deicide i know thats a novel concept bro but its just plain silly, this isnt a hippies utopia the idea of ill leave you alone if you leave me alone doesnt work in todays society. The world is far to intertwined, maybe its b/c I dont buy into the whole moral high ground thing which i still dont understand why you do as an atheist but anywho. Other countries affairs effect us if not directly then indirectly, im not justifying shit deicide just giving you something to think about.

I am not an idiot, of course I don't think in such utopian terms. It's not novel to me and we can work within the framework of 'military threat'. None of the countries I mentioned ever posed a direct military threat, moreover the argument 'if we don't do it, others will', is bunk. Why don't we try to improve ourselves and let others do what they do AS LONG THERE IS NOT DIRECT MILITARY THREAT. In the case of Guatemala and Chile the only interests involved were corporate interests, not national ones.