Could Jay Cutler have beat Dorian Yates?

[ZachG_85]

On Cutler vs. Dorian

Could Cutler beat Dorian? Probably not, but maybe. 2003 Ironman Jay vs. 1993 Dorian would be a good contest. Doz obviously would be harder and grainier, but you can't deny that Jay is the better athlete from the front and, unlike Nasser, doesn't have a small back. At the end of the day, I predict conditioning would win out and Dorian would take it. From a pure muscular development angle, Jay is the better man. Better lower half of the body, shoulders, traps, tighter abs.

On Dorian vs. Ronnie

Never ends, really. Who had the better conditioning? I would say Dorian. The man is one of the only guys save Munzer/Momo/Paco who look like their skin was just painted on top of muscle tissue. The reason Ronnie can look as though his conditioning is better is because he has frightening genetics for separation and striations. If you've seen his offseason pictures, his arms are separated like crazy and the glutes show striations even at his heaviest.

However, prime Dorian could never, and I mean NEVER, match Ronnie's shape. Yes, Dorian could have the wider spread, but Doz's waist is also thicker and he didn't have nearly the quad sweep of Ron. Ronnie's front relaxed at the 2001 Arnold seriously looks photoshopped.

End of the day? Ronnie, but just barely.

Oh, and anyone who uses competitions to judge the better bodybuilder might as well say Mike Katz is better than Flex Wheeler because Flex wasn't a bodybuilder at all when Katz was competing. 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Dorian would always win simply because he is the most complete bodybuilder and he doesn't have some weaknesses that others do and he simply looks better in the mandatory poses compare to Cutler & Coleman.

Everyone raves about Coleman's shape , he does edge Yates out on quad shape at his best 2001 Arnold Classic and bicep shape and delts , and he was blessed with narrow hips & waist , but I digress , Coleman has oddly shapped triceps , and abs even at thier best wern't that great , his glutes and GIANT and calves have poor shape and I say Yates edges him out in all those aspects , and Yates combo beat Flex Wheeler who in my opinion outclassed Coleman in shape .

Yates has 99% of Coleman's size , better balance & proportion , equal or slightly better conditioning .

Front Double Biceps - I would give this to Coleman just because of his better biceps
although it would be close because you can see his lack of calves and balance in this pose

Rear Double Bicep - I would give this to Yates , although Coleman has an edge on this pose due to slightly better separation you can clearly see his giant ass and weak calves

Front Latspread - Yates , he always looked better in this pose

Rear Latspread - I would say Yates again , Ronnie may have an edge on width , but again his weak calves and giant glutes would hurt him in this shot next to Yates

Side Triceps - Yates he always had an awesome side tricep shot and Coleman's triceps have a very thin side head

Side Chest - I would give this to Ronnie his weak calves can be hidden fairly well from the side and at his best Coleman has the better chest , although his overdeveloped delts hurts this shot for him somewhat

Ab-Thigh - I would give to Yates , even with the wider waist he had better abs , seratus & intercostles and he always looked good in this shot.

In my opinion Yates has an edge of posing , he has the ability to show his physique off better than Coleman , so in my opinion Yates would beat Ronnie in 5 of the 7 mandatory poses .

[tony b]

Dorian would always win simply because he is the most complete bodybuilder and he doesn't have some weaknesses that others do and he simply looks better in the mandatory poses compare to Cutler & Coleman.

Everyone raves about Coleman's shape , he does edge Yates out on quad shape at his best 2001 Arnold Classic and bicep shape and delts , and he was blessed with narrow hips & waist , but I digress , Coleman has oddly shapped triceps , and abs even at thier best wern't that great , his glutes and GIANT and calves have poor shape and I say Yates edges him out in all those aspects , and Yates combo beat Flex Wheeler who in my opinion outclassed Coleman in shape .

Yates has 99% of Coleman's size , better balance & proportion , equal or slightly better conditioning .

Front Double Biceps - I would give this to Coleman just because of his better biceps
although it would be close because you can see his lack of calves and balance in this pose

Rear Double Bicep - I would give this to Yates , although Coleman has an edge on this pose due to slightly better separation you can clearly see his giant ass and weak calves

Front Latspread - Yates , he always looked better in this pose

Rear Latspread - I would say Yates again , Ronnie may have an edge on width , but again his weak calves and giant glutes would hurt him in this shot next to Yates

Side Triceps - Yates he always had an awesome side tricep shot and Coleman's triceps have a very thin side head

Side Chest - I would give this to Ronnie his weak calves can be hidden fairly well from the side and at his best Coleman has the better chest , although his overdeveloped delts hurts this shot for him somewhat

Ab-Thigh - I would give to Yates , even with the wider waist he had better abs , seratus & intercostles and he always looked good in this shot.

In my opinion Yates has an edge of posing , he has the ability to show his physique off better than Coleman , so in my opinion Yates would beat Ronnie in 5 of the 7 mandatory poses .

basically your saying that rear lat and rear double bicep could go either way. Both could go to Ronnie and then its 4 to 3 Advantage Ronnie

[NarcissisticDeity]

No I would say Yates would get the rear latspread , simply because his back is just as wide as Coleman's and he doesn't have the overdeveloped glutes and poor calves , same with the rear double bicep , I would say Coleman has a slight edge on detail & biceps , but again his glutes & calves hurt him in any rear shots ( no pun )

[sculpture]

Nah. No chance does anyone beat ronnie on rear double bis shot. his calves only appear small from the front where the sheer volume of his frontal thighs really is apparent. from the back they seem more in line. Coupled with better splits, more separation, greater back width, better natural shape and a far more exaggerated v taper with equal thickness and density give ronnie the edge

[Palpatine Q]

Ronnie has better chest,arms,back,quads, hams and crushes him in structure, muscle shape ,vascularity and separation. So dorians defenders point out that he has better forearms and calves,two secondary muscle groups at best. Real convincing argument. Calves and forearms don't win shows

[delta9mda]

f**k u hulkster...this pic is not fux..its definetely yates......prove that this pic is fux and not yates......no way fux had a back that perfect....that pic is 100000000000000000000000 0000000000%  the back of dorian'THE SHADOW'yates

the pic is fux. those are not yates' hams or glutes.  remember, fux had the yates size, but not conditon. 

[delta9mda]

LOL , ok i've got a few pics that are much more impressive than ronnie.






oooh ouch....   sorry for owning you.

DAMN, OWNED like a red headed step child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NarcissisticDeity]

Ronnie has better chest,arms,back,quads, hams and crushes him in structure, muscle shape ,vascularity and separation. So dorians defenders point out that he has better forearms and calves,two secondary muscle groups at best. Real convincing argument. Calves and forearms don't win shows

Better arms ? hardly better biceps yes , not triceps or forearms , and Coleman has better shape? again in some muscles he does and others he doesn't and Yates has much better balance between muscles and his upper and lower body , I'm sorry but Coleman's massive ass and weak calves hurt any pose from the back , Coleman has small calves overdeveloped quads just poor balance through out his phsyique and I like how you say calves and forearms don't win shows apparently no calves and forearms wins shows , because Coleman gets a buy.

Calves can be seen in every pose from front to back to side to side , you really can't hide poor calves.

[delta9mda]

747

OWNING  arnold, lee and ronnie

[Hulkster]

No I would say Yates would get the rear latspread , simply because his back is just as wide as Coleman's and he doesn't have the overdeveloped glutes and poor calves 

But his back is way more detailed when viewed in the back lat spread:


Note the striations visible in the lower back. Yates rear lat spread never looked this good.  And his glutes and hams ADD to the impressiveness of the pose, not detract from it.

Ronnie's front relaxed at the 2001 Arnold seriously looks photoshopped.

If you are refering to his waist size, no it isn't. Look at any pics from the contest, including the magazines: ronnie had a tiny waist and an incredible taper:



Yates would kill to have that kind of shape.

[Hulkster]

I don't understand how anyone can think that Yates has a better rear double bi than Ronnie. The rear lat spread is debatable, but not the double bi:



 

And just because Ronnie has crappy calves does not trump the fact that his entire back in the pose is better. And that should be emphasized.

[Hulkster]

 Also, I don't think that Ronnie's forearms are as bad compared to Yates as everyone says they are. Yates' forearms have no definition or vascularity:



They are just big. Isn't it ironic that the people who claim that Ronnie is all size and nothing else are now claiming that Dorian's forearms are better for the very same reason?


much better..

[Hulkster]

Ronnie has better chest,arms,back,quads, hams and crushes him in structure, muscle shape ,vascularity and separation. So dorians defenders point out that he has better forearms and calves,two secondary muscle groups at best. Real convincing argument. Calves and forearms don't win shows

Exactly. Very good post.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Coleman may slightly edge Yates on the back double bicep shot from the waist up but guess what from the waist down Coleman can't compete and you and you can't say Yates has no detail in his rear latspread look at this pic , it has just has much detail as Ronnie's , and he isn't leaning as far forward as Coleman when he does it either , and concerning the back double bicep shot to posted , thats not a good comparison , poor lighting look at this pic of Yates in the same shot and you care to explain to me what detail Ronnie has that Yates doesn't , look in the pic Yates upper & lower traps are seprated Coleman's aren't .

[NarcissisticDeity]

Yates' forearms are more than just big

[NarcissisticDeity]

Freaky condition , size , detail , triceps back detail , depth and muscle quality , and shredded qlutes 

[LyricTenor]

lol coleman looks like a pile of poop

[LyricTenor]

ouch...


Just look at how dense his muscles are compared to coleman.

[LyricTenor]

.

lol

[GymNazi]

one of the several stupidiest thread i have ever seen on getbig.



and we are page 8 of this crap, trying to compare banana and apples, or rather keyboards and cars.
Yeah this is totaly stupid, this has no purpose, like this thread.


let start a thread about  steve reeves owning frank zane...

i bet all the "experts" like zachg85,narsisicdeity and other will come post some very serious crap showing how smart they are and how their arguments are valuable...

[Mussolini]

On Cutler vs. Dorian

Could Cutler beat Dorian? Probably not, but maybe. 2003 Ironman Jay vs. 1993 Dorian would be a good contest. Doz obviously would be harder and grainier, but you can't deny that Jay is the better athlete from the front and, unlike Nasser, doesn't have a small back. At the end of the day, I predict conditioning would win out and Dorian would take it. From a pure muscular development angle, Jay is the better man. Better lower half of the body, shoulders, traps, tighter abs.

On Dorian vs. Ronnie

Never ends, really. Who had the better conditioning? I would say Dorian. The man is one of the only guys save Munzer/Momo/Paco who look like their skin was just painted on top of muscle tissue. The reason Ronnie can look as though his conditioning is better is because he has frightening genetics for separation and striations. If you've seen his offseason pictures, his arms are separated like crazy and the glutes show striations even at his heaviest.

However, prime Dorian could never, and I mean NEVER, match Ronnie's shape. Yes, Dorian could have the wider spread, but Doz's waist is also thicker and he didn't have nearly the quad sweep of Ron. Ronnie's front relaxed at the 2001 Arnold seriously looks photoshopped.

End of the day? Ronnie, but just barely.

Oh, and anyone who uses competitions to judge the better bodybuilder might as well say Mike Katz is better than Flex Wheeler because Flex wasn't a bodybuilder at all when Katz was competing. 

the last part of your statement is totally obsured. Comparing when Dorian and Ronnie competed agains each other is relevent because hulkster claimed that ronnie matched dorians condition when he was lighter, IE when he competed against Dorian.

How is comparing two bodybuilders who both dieted and trained for and competed in the same show the same as comparing Katz to an infant wheeler? I think you might want to check yourself back into the mental health hospital again.

[ZachG_85]

the last part of your statement is totally obsured. Comparing when Dorian and Ronnie competed agains each other is relevent because hulkster claimed that ronnie matched dorians condition when he was lighter, IE when he competed against Dorian.

How is comparing two bodybuilders who both dieted and trained for and competed in the same show the same as comparing Katz to an infant wheeler? I think you might want to check yourself back into the mental health hospital again.

No, you're wrong, sorry. Ronnie was four years away from his peak when Dorian competed against him. Look at all the photos Hulkster is using, the majority of them are from 2001. Peak Ronnie never competed against peak Doz, THAT's my point.

Ronnie lost to Fux in 1997, would anyone in their right mind claim Fux is the better bodybuilder? Ronnie lost to a guy named Thierry Pastel in 1994, which as far as I can tell was their only meeting, was HE better than Ronnie?

Ronnie peaked in one of three places depending on your personal preference, 1999 Olympia, 2001 Arnold, 2003 Olympia. None of these were near a prime Dorian. I used an exaggerated example to more clearly illustrate the point.

Was Dorian better than Ronnie in 1997? I don't really believe that, I think at that point Doz was riding on momentum, much like Ron did in 2002 and 2004.

Thus, we have to compare peaks, so 1993 Dorian and one of the above Ronnie years, I'll take the 2001 AC. Out of those two, Ronnie takes it. He just does and it's seriously foolish to deny it. Even a lot of Ironagers agree that Ronnie came with one of the best physiques ever displayed that day.

[bbfan1]

No I would say Yates would get the rear latspread , simply because his back is just as wide as Coleman's and he doesn't have the overdeveloped glutes and poor calves , same with the rear double bicep , I would say Coleman has a slight edge on detail & biceps , but again his glutes & calves hurt him in any rear shots ( no pun )

I would bet Ronnie's calves are bigger than Dorian's.  It is the shitty lack of diamond shape of his calves which give Dorian the edge.  Much the same for Cutler, despite having calves which are no bigger than Ronnie's (and probably smaller judging from pics side by side).

As for Ronnie's overdeveloped glutes - you and I both know how pro BB is judged these days, and there is no such thing as overdeveloped unless synthol or implants were involved.

[body88]

Hulk you post the same pics over and over. Yet post crap shots of Doz. Ya Ronnie is impressive but also some of those pics are just that really good pics which make him look alot better than he  was. If you watch the videos from those contests he is not as impressive as in those pics ( He is impressive yes... But not like on those shots ) And yes you can see his gut Evan then.

whos better? set them up in the same time frame from starting points same drugs same training and yates is better imo.