Author Topic: THIS..is a gym!  (Read 40693 times)

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #100 on: December 31, 2009, 04:32:59 PM »
On a functional scale 1-10, 98% of machines are about 2. It doesn't make much sense to train on just a sagittal plain since the body moves in multiple directions. Make sense?

A bench press trains you in a specific plane of motion. Incline trains a different plane. Decline still another. There are incline, decline, flat machines.

Are you saying that it is necessary to train all the planes of motion? If so by how many degrees? How would you isolate the ham strings with free weights?

If there's any limitation on plane of motion it would seem to be free weights which, because it is governed by gravity, is simply up and down. When you start out with a bicep curl there is no resistance on your biceps. It steadily increase until your forearms are perpendicular to the floor at a 90 degree angle in which then, and only then, you have the full resistance of the weight.

You joints move in a rotary fashion. An example will be the Nautilus pullover where the resistance is where it's suppose to be, the elbows, so you by pass the much weaker biceps. Resistances is applies through out the full range of motion. Same with the lateral shoulder machine and bicep curl. Full range rotary motion.

Devon97

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #101 on: December 31, 2009, 04:33:14 PM »

Yes with the same person  , I'm speaking  from my own experience.

Way wrong answer... "che"

Mr Nobody

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #102 on: December 31, 2009, 04:34:46 PM »
if you wanna discuss machines vs free weight exercise you need to

(1) specify exactly what machine and which free weight exercise you are talking about

and realize

(2) that people have different structure, strength levels , strength curves, pre existing injuries etc...all these need to be taken into consideration when comparing benefits of a certain machine vs certain free weight exercise


The older Nautilus machines and Hammer Strength are best in my book.

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #103 on: December 31, 2009, 04:35:31 PM »


Ah, but when you train with a free-weight movement you are following your body's natural plane of movement. On a machine you are forced into what ever plane of motion/fixed pattern of movement the machines's maker thought was a good idea. Never a good idea.

That depends entirely on how you setup/position the exercise. Standing curls or Scott curls. Incline or decline bench. Narrow or wide stance squats. What is a body's natural plane of movement?

dr.chimps

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #104 on: December 31, 2009, 04:37:14 PM »
lol lots of bullshit in this thread..do you even know what closed chain exercise is? if your gonna try to sound fancy know what the fuck your talking about.

and no machines arent always inferior. absolute nonsense.

as long as you can load a muscle safely it doesnt matter if its a machine or free weights, and the theory about stabilizers is shit. does that mean that every machine is good, no as many are poorly contstructed but they (machines) arent inherently inferior to free weights. that being said i personally use both machines and free weights.

you guys need to realize that machines and free weights are tools used to LOAD the muscle.
Hmm. When I wrote that I was thinking of the pull-ups I did today vs. the pull-downs I see most people do. This ok with you, badass!?  

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #105 on: December 31, 2009, 04:39:18 PM »
Because, it's almost always a closed-chain exercise, not an open one.

What does that mean?

Mr Nobody

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #106 on: December 31, 2009, 04:40:00 PM »
Chins, Dips and Squats increasing weight when possible throw in a few curls. A done deal for mass building

Hedgehog

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #107 on: December 31, 2009, 04:40:18 PM »
No responses? Whats the matter, people in that gym train too hard and not enough machines for you?

STFU... ::)

What's the big deal - you've suddenly after 30+ years in gym training all of a sudden discovered that some people train to lift heavy.


Give it another 12 months and you will be posting a video of a Weightlifting gym like that is something novel.


But hey - I'm happy for yeh!



I bet you wear House of pain tee's and beanies and shit too, being 100% HARDCOOOOOOOOOOORE? ;D
As empty as paradise

dr.chimps

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #108 on: December 31, 2009, 04:41:39 PM »
What does that mean?
You have a computer? Access to google? Sorry, I realize I've asked you that tonight.    ;)

slaveboy1980

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #109 on: December 31, 2009, 04:41:43 PM »
The older Nautilus machines and Hammer Strength are best in my book.

some nautilus machines are good..some are absolute shit. same with hammer strength...many good machines...some are poor. and i tried alot of them. so like i said some are good some are bad AND you have to factor that in when you compare to a certain free weight exercise. IF you safely can load a muscle using a certain machine exercise..it will be just as a good as free weights. progressive increases of tension on the muscle what first and foremost drives muscle growth.


pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #110 on: December 31, 2009, 04:42:36 PM »
Hmm. When I wrote that I was thinking of the pull-ups I did today vs. the pull-downs I see most people do. This ok with you, badass!?  


I find that one of the reasons people don't do pull ups is because they can't. They aren't strong enough. I read an article that most top pros can't do pull ups because though they are very strong they weigh 275-300 pounds. Pull downs are a compromise.  

slaveboy1980

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2009, 04:43:27 PM »
Hmm. When I wrote that I was thinking of the pull-ups I did today vs. the pull-downs I see most people do. This ok with you, badass!?  


pull ups or pull downs..doesnt matter which the fuck you do (personal preference...and many are too weak and/or fat to  do correct chins.).eventho some hard core cocksuckers will say chins. all that matter is that you over time increase the weight in the exercise and do the exercise correctly so the intended muscles get worked.

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2009, 04:44:06 PM »
pull ups or pull downs..doesnt matter which the fuck you do..eventho some hard core cocksuckers will say chins. all that matter is that you over time increase the weight in the exercise and do the exercise correctly so the intended muscles get worked.

QFT

Ex Coelis

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2009, 04:46:44 PM »
too weak for chins?

that's pretty sad

dr.chimps

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #114 on: December 31, 2009, 04:50:38 PM »
too weak for chins?

that's pretty sad
Bump for the beret.

Ex Coelis

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #115 on: December 31, 2009, 04:52:39 PM »
Bump for the beret.

lol thanks, bro  ;D

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #116 on: December 31, 2009, 04:54:34 PM »
too weak for chins?

that's pretty sad

I resent that. It's not a natural plane of movement for me.

Ex Coelis

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2009, 04:57:49 PM »
I resent that. It's not a natural plane of movement for me.

you're still cool, pellius

no one can take that from you

Mr Nobody

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2009, 04:59:51 PM »

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #119 on: December 31, 2009, 05:06:49 PM »
You activate more 'core' muscles to stabilize your movements, like tri's & front delts for benches for example. Also EMG studies show that more muscle fibers are activated during FW exercises than those with machines.

Machine vs benchpress


Of course free weights activate more muscles but that because you have to balance the weight making the environment more unstable which requires a lot for skill than machines. But why is that a good thing for the targeted muscle?

When I ask a person what is your core they kind of motion to their waist area. When I ask specifically what they mean, what muscles are they talking about, they'll same something like abs, obliques, lower back muscles. There are specific movements that target that muscle. All muscles in a sense or stabilizers in that they hold you up and maintain any position that you might want to assume. But is there really a specific class of stabilizer muscles? If so, what are they?

I think when people talk about core and stabilizers they are referring to the balancing skill required to move an unsupported weight which makes it more unstable. By why is that a good thing? I'm sure you use a lot more "stabilizing" muscles squatting or benching on a Swiss bar but the more unstable the environment the less you can target a given muscle. All a muscle does is contract. Contract under resistance and over load may stimulate an adaptive response. Compromise that resistance and the exercise becomes less effective for stimulating an adaptive response. Free weights become effective once a person learns the skill of lifting on that particular movement and can now focus on intensity and overload. But there's an inherent limitation because the maximum plane of resistance is limited to up and down whereas your joints move in a rotary fashion.

DroppingPlates

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2009, 06:14:32 PM »
Of course free weights activate more muscles but that because you have to balance the weight making the environment more unstable which requires a lot for skill than machines. But why is that a good thing for the targeted muscle?
The advantage lies more in a higher rate of activated muscle fibers within the targeted muscle than the number of supporting muscles involved. AFAIK there's no consensus yet why this is, but I think that balancing play an important role. Especially dumbell exercises have a high EMG score. For example decline dumbell presses has the highest EMG score compared with other chest exercises with barbells, machines, cables and from other angles.

Quote
When I ask a person what is your core they kind of motion to their waist area. When I ask specifically what they mean, what muscles are they talking about, they'll same something like abs, obliques, lower back muscles. There are specific movements that target that muscle. All muscles in a sense or stabilizers in that they hold you up and maintain any position that you might want to assume. But is there really a specific class of stabilizer muscles? If so, what are they?
Officially your core means your whole body minus your legs and arms. You're correct that every muscle functions as a stabilizer, but in case of your core it's more about muscles who play a more active role in this process, like the lower and mid section from your back & abs to keep your torso in position, your neck for your head, hips for your legs & torso and delts for arms & torso. There are specific exercises for those areas but it's also important to let them work together. Imagine yourself in a wheelchair for a year with two daily options for 1 hour: 1. isolation exercises or 2. walking. I would definitely going for 2 because walking would be tough after 1 year with only the option #1.

Quote
I think when people talk about core and stabilizers they are referring to the balancing skill required to move an unsupported weight which makes it more unstable. By why is that a good thing?
Because most of us use those muscles to less because of modern times. We sit, we drive, take the lift, etc. For example strong abs help to prevent lowerback pain.

Quote
I'm sure you use a lot more "stabilizing" muscles squatting or benching on a Swiss bar but the more unstable the environment the less you can target a given muscle. All a muscle does is contract.
See my first reply in this post. A contraction is only a contraction on fiber level (activated or not).

Quote
Contract under resistance and over load may stimulate an adaptive response. Compromise that resistance and the exercise becomes less effective for stimulating an adaptive response. Free weights become effective once a person learns the skill of lifting on that particular movement and can now focus on intensity and overload. But there's an inherent limitation because the maximum plane of resistance is limited to up and down whereas your joints move in a rotary fashion.
The more muscles and balancing work is involved the harder it gets to perform them. I always tell impatient clients that they first need to control the movement & weight before going heavy. Of course this is nothing less than logic, but this is just beginners experience.

BB

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2009, 06:56:38 PM »
What is a body's natural plane of movement?

It varies with the with the individual. Watch a 1000 different people rack a clean or bench press you'll all sorts of variations in bar path, bar speed, etc.... that aren't easy to replicate, if even replicatable on a machine. It is quicker, safer, and more efficiant to have them use freeweights.  

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2009, 07:00:28 PM »
The advantage lies more in a higher rate of activated muscle fibers within the targeted muscle than the number of supporting muscles involved. AFAIK there's no consensus yet why this is, but I think that balancing play an important role. Especially dumbell exercises have a high EMG score. For example decline dumbell presses has the highest EMG score compared with other chest exercises with barbells, machines, cables and from other angles.
Officially your core means your whole body minus your legs and arms. You're correct that every muscle functions as a stabilizer, but in case of your core it's more about muscles who play a more active role in this process, like the lower and mid section from your back & abs to keep your torso in position, your neck for your head, hips for your legs & torso and delts for arms & torso. There are specific exercises for those areas but it's also important to let them work together. Imagine yourself in a wheelchair for a year with two daily options for 1 hour: 1. isolation exercises or 2. walking. I would definitely going for 2 because walking would be tough after 1 year with only the option #1.
Because most of us use those muscles to less because of modern times. We sit, we drive, take the lift, etc. For example strong abs help to prevent lowerback pain.
See my first reply in this post. A contraction is only a contraction on fiber level (activated or not).
The more muscles and balancing work is involved the harder it gets to perform them. I always tell impatient clients that they first need to control the movement & weight before going heavy. Of course this is nothing less than logic, but this is just beginners experience.


What activates the fibers is the load presented on them. Light load, less activation. More load, more activation. This is different from muscular inroads where the load is relatively light but repetitions high.

If you want to get good at walking -- walk. If you want to get good at managing a wheel chair -- roll around on that chair. Neither will help the other.

The body is very activity specific. This started to dawn on me when I rolled around with a Jiu-Jitsu novice who was a top notched marathon runner. Now when I say rolled around I had no intention of smashing him but just roll and let him practice on me. Is main problem was he just kept getting winded. He couldn't keep up with me conditioning wise on the mat. But I assure you I couldn't jog 10 miles let alone keep up with him in a marathon.

A lot of the conditioning training that coaches have their MMA fighters do: moving tires, chopping wood, pulling sleds, jumping around, even low intensity jogging, will do little or nothing in increasing a fighter's conditioning for a fight. Dan Gable was once asked what was the best exercise to be in shape for wrestling. He said "Wrestle."

When Joe Stevenson fought B.J. Penn of course he got smashed but he was barely winded even though B.J. was huffing and puffing. And Joe was in all the bad positions that exhaust you -- being on the bottom. His training consisted primary of very activity specific drills. Actually rolling and fighting round after after round.

Did you watch any of the last TUF? Those big guys did all those state of the art conditioning drills but when they actually step into the cage they could barely get through the first round. They were in great shape. In shape for jogging, lifting weights, climbing rope, pulling sleds, but not for fighting. In their training they seemed to do little all out sparring and wrestling and it showed.  

pellius

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2009, 07:09:13 PM »
It varies with the with the individual. Watch a 1000 different people rack a clean or bench press you'll all sorts of variations in bar path, bar speed, etc.... that aren't easy to replicate, if even replicatable on a machine. It is quicker, safer, and more efficiant to have them use freeweights.  


A person is far, far more likely to hurt themselves doing a squat, bench press, shoulder press with free weights than a leg press, Nautilus chest or shoulder press precisely because it's a fix motion. There is no such thing as a natural groove that your body tends to. Watch someone who has never benched before. He may instinctively lower the bar to his neck or toward his stomach. He may not push it straight up (straight up and down being the natural groove for a free weight be it a rock or a barbell regardless what a person's "natural groove is."). With a machine all you have to do is adjust it to fit the person and let them push or pull. He doesn't have to worry about controlling and balancing the weight. Just subjecting the muscle to an over load.

We can debate whether free weights vs machines are more conducive to muscle size and strength but to claim that free weights are inherently safer is a stretch.

WillGrant

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Re: THIS..is a gym!
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2009, 07:38:48 PM »
Again....Dorian Yates trained mostly with machines and he won the Mr Olympia six times. Depending on who you ask, he's either the number 1 or 2 best BBer ever.
Dorian built his foundation with free weights not machines.