Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA

[DK II]

If the mind is a product of the brain?  Stephen Hawking's analogy still fails and contradicts his point.  

The brain of a computer is the Central Processing Unit(CPU).  Software is the mind/soul of a computer, and it is not a product of the CPU.  

The CPU is physical.  Software is not physical.  The CPU fails and stops working eventually, but the software lives on.  

Yep, you can transfer the software to another PC and run it there, hardly practicable with your mind. 


To cut this short, if i was in the shit Stephen Hawkings is through, i would not believe in god as well.

[loco]

Yep, you can transfer the software to another PC and run it there, hardly practicable with your mind.  


To cut this short, if i was in the shit Stephen Hawkings is through, i would not believe in god as well.

I'm not the one who used the computer analogy.  Stephen Hawkings is the one who used it to make his point.  I'm the one saying it is not a good analogy, and it contradicts his point.    

[DK II]

I'm not the one who used the computer analogy.  Stephen Hawkings is the one who used it to make his point.  I'm the one saying it is not a good analogy, and it contradicts his point.    

Yes, i got that.

I am actually on your side here. 

[Agnostic007]

i can tell  ya.. whether you believe in god or a afterlife.. when the moment of truth comes.. and you will be faced with the possibility of shutting yours and you cease to exist.. literally cease to exist.. no memories.. no meaning.. just gone.. you will be praying for a god and praying for a afterlife.. not saying what happens one way or another.. but you can be a die hard atheist all you want.. you wont be come with looking death in the face..

The truth is many people die every day who are atheist and remain atheist until their last breath. Have you considered that an "eternal" life may not be all it's cracked up to be? 

[Agnostic007]

Everything you noted speaks about the flaws of man in relation to the perfection of God.  The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament....he doesn't change, nor do the flaws found in people.  The jealousy of God is well-documented in scripture so no worries there.  If I gave everything to my children, delivered them from turmoil they create themselves again and again and my children chose to give thanks and pledge themselves to an alter made of wood or gold objects they fashioned and ignore me I'd be put out too.......LOL, but that's just me.  

As far as rape of the Midianite woman I pulled this from my earmarked favorites:

Moses and the Midianites
Numbers 31:7-18
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba - the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army - the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds - who returned from the battle.

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weren't the virgin women raped?
There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Deuteronomy 22:25-27
But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.


Weren't some of the women and children sacrificed (Num 31:25-41)?

No - they probably became servants of the priests. This passage is dealt with in the article on human sacrifice.


Why were the men and non-virgin women killed?

The Midianites conspired with the Moabites to curse Israel (Num 22:1-7). When the curse was turned into a blessing instead (24:10-11), the Moabite and Midianite woman agreed to seduce the Israelite men and in doing so entice them to serve their idols (25:1-9, 31:15-16, Rev 2:14). The Israelites who fell prey to this and engaged in idolatry were also held responsible, and were executed (25:4-5). Virgin women and young girls were obviously not participants in this, so they were spared.


Why was Balaam killed - didn't he bless Israel?

Balaam did follow God's instructions and blessed Israel instead of cursing it as Balak, the Moabite king, wanted him to (Num 24:10-11 - see ch. 22-24 for the whole story). However, following God was not habitual for Balaam: he often practiced sorcery (24:1) and in fact was his idea to bring destruction on Israel by having the women lure the Israelites into sexual immorality and idolatry (31:15-16, Rev 2:14).


What about the Moabites?

The Moabites were a special case - they were descendents of Lot (Gen 19:36-37), and were to remain in the land God had provided for them (Dt 2:9). However, they were excluded from the Israelite community as a result of their actions (Dt 23:3-6).
 
It's true that people break God's law time and time again in the Old Testament, but that doesn't take away from salvation in Christ, his love for us or his glorious resurrection.

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

To argue any justification for this kind of killing is a prime example of the typical Christians stance on the biblical god.

I could describe the most atrocious act upon man you can imagine, and say another human committed it upon someone and without exception Christians would easily recognize and proclaim it evil and wrong. But if I gave the same circumstances and say God did it, they would suspend reason and common sense and proclaim it is good because ....well because God did it. Cut a pregnant woman open and remove the fetus with a sword.. horrible.. but God commanded it? Oh, its ok. Kill women and children captives and keep the virgins for yourselves? Dastardly... oh Moses a representative of God said it? No problem..

This automatic justification of atrocious actions simply because of who did it reminds me of how the Nazi's may have felt about Hitlers orders... as atrocious as they were, well, it's Hitler so it must be right... IN reality, the old testament God made Hitler look like Ghandi

 

[Man of Steel]

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

To argue any justification for this kind of killing is a prime example of the typical Christians stance on the biblical god.

I could describe the most atrocious act upon man you can imagine, and say another human committed it upon someone and without exception Christians would easily recognize and proclaim it evil and wrong. But if I gave the same circumstances and say God did it, they would suspend reason and common sense and proclaim it is good because ....well because God did it. Cut a pregnant woman open and remove the fetus with a sword.. horrible.. but God commanded it? Oh, its ok. Kill women and children captives and keep the virgins for yourselves? Dastardly... oh Moses a representative of God said it? No problem..

This automatic justification of atrocious actions simply because of who did it reminds me of how the Nazi's may have felt about Hitlers orders... as atrocious as they were, well, it's Hitler so it must be right... IN reality, the old testament God made Hitler look like Ghandi

 

AAHAHAAHAHAH!!!  So Christians are like Nazis now......jumping back to my days in the Getbig Squad, but "oh brother".

[OTHstrong]

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

To argue any justification for this kind of killing is a prime example of the typical Christians stance on the biblical god. I could describe the most atrocious act upon man you can imagine, and say another human committed it upon someone and without exception Christians would easily recognize and proclaim it evil and wrong. But if I gave the same circumstances and say God did it, they would suspend reason and common sense and proclaim it is good because ....well because God did it. Cut a pregnant woman open and remove the fetus with a sword.. horrible.. but God commanded it? Oh, its ok. Kill women and children captives and keep the virgins for yourselves? Dastardly... oh Moses a representative of God said it? No problem..

This automatic justification of atrocious actions simply because of who did it reminds me of how the Nazi's may have felt about Hitlers orders... as atrocious as they were, well, it's Hitler so it must be right... IN reality, the old testament God made Hitler look like Ghandi

 

These were some disturbing times in the world, darker then you could possibly imagine, This era expected the annihilation of tribes and nations. It was the norm among war, every nation did it at the beginning including your ancestors. If you didn't abide by this then the few you left alive would strengthen and grow in a few generations and come back to slaughter you. You really have no choice, considering the era, to kill woman and children. Same with the law a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. without this law, witch the whole world followed by the way, there would be chaos and mayhem everywhere.... We are talking about people that would sacrifice their own sons and daughter on a regular basis to their statue god. as the times change, then you must change with them.
   If you've have done any type of historical research on this time period you would know this is the way the world tuned, remember If one ember is left alight the fire can ignite

[Agnostic007]

These were some disturbing times in the world, darker then you could possibly imagine, This era expected the annihilation of tribes and nations. It was the norm among war, every nation did it at the beginning including your ancestors. If you didn't abide by this then the few you left alive would strengthen and grow in a few generations and come back to slaughter you. You really have no choice, considering the era, to kill woman and children. Same with the law a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. without this law, witch the whole world followed by the way, there would be chaos and mayhem everywhere.... We are talking about people that would sacrifice their own sons and daughter on a regular basis to their statue god. as the times change, then you must change with them.
   If you've have done any type of historical research on this time period you would know this is the way the world tuned, remember If one ember is left alight the fire can ignite

Thank you for making my point

[Agnostic007]

AAHAHAAHAHAH!!!  So Christians are like Nazis now......jumping back to my days in the Getbig Squad, but "oh brother".

Please don't discount my message by focusing on a non issue. Christians are not like Nazis. However Christians allow God to commit any atrocity in the bible, and there are many, and call it good, or accept it because it's God who did it. It compares to why some otherwise good people sat back and allowed atrocities to occur to the Jews.. they had misguided loyalty to a mad man. 

[Man of Steel]

Please don't discount my message by focusing on a non issue. Christians are not like Nazis. However Christians allow God to commit any atrocity in the bible, and there are many, and call it good, or accept it because it's God who did it. It compares to why some otherwise good people sat back and allowed atrocities to occur to the Jews.. they had misguided loyalty to a mad man. 

Fair enough.  When you remove God from the equation you take away a great deal of the context of the situation.  You're left with two groups of people waging war and committing all kinds of atrocities against one another.  If you add God back into the equation and then provide the all important context to the situation things become clearer.  The Midianites were a nomadic band of people that attacked and attacked and attacked the Israelites season after season leaving them in a state of utter desperation.  At one point the Midianites were described as a swarm of locusts that devoured everything in their path.  They took everything from the Israelites and left them nothing.  God will test his people and allow bad things to happen so that we may return to him, draw closer to him and remember that he is in control.  God chose the people of Israel to become his messengers for the world....his beacon of light.  Once the Israelites again put their trust in God he allowed the Midianites to be overcome.  Much like he did against the Amalekites....another pagan horde the Israelites were forced to encounter.  These were not innocent bands of people that the Israelites had to fight.  As Christians we understand the love of God and the work he's done in each of us.  We all take for granted how serious God treats our sin.  Our sins are worthy of death; hence the Israelites provided animals sacrifices to God as a blood atonement for that sin.  That's how serious sin is in the eyes of God.  Thankfully we have the new convenant in the form of Jesus Christ that shed his own blood for all our sins.  It's only through his blood, the blood of divine sacrifice, the only lamb worthy to be slain that we are free from the clutches of death.  I've told others before if you don't like God's law or God's methods I suggest you take it up with God and I mean that in the best sense.  God knows the contents of your heart so seek him honestly and earnestly and he will reveal himself to you....it's changed my life.  I still have a lot to learn in my walk with Christ, but I'm so thankful that God now directs my path.  For most, everything I've just said is nonsense, Christian-gibberish if you will.  Most atrocities are completely removed from their context and the big picture never addressed.  Others will say, "Why did the children of the Midianites or the Amalekites have to die?  Weren't they innocent?  How can a loving God allow that to happen?"  None are more precious to Christ than the children.  It is better to have a milestone tied to your neck and for you to be dropped into the sea than to lead the children into sin.  God has allowed children of the pagan peoples to be killed, but they'll spend an eternity with Christ in paradise and not be subject to the faults of those generations before them who will spend an eternity separated from God.  If you ignore Christ then all you see are dead children and battered people.  Add God into the equation and you see love, mercy and purpose.  Again, others will see that as nonsense and that's ok.  My words may at best only plant a tiny seed, while others may help water that seed at a later date; still, only God can make it grow.  That's my only hope, that others that don't know Christ can come to belief and experience his love.

[OTHstrong]

Thank you for making my point

Actually I'll even add to it.... There is a lady in the Bible the took her child and eat him

[Agnostic007]

Among other things, Man of Steel wrote..

"God has allowed children of the pagan peoples to be killed, but they'll spend an eternity with Christ in paradise and not be subject to the faults of those generations before them who will spend an eternity separated from God. "

Why wouldn't god use this great logic today to kill all the children he knows will not accept Jesus and therefore save them from hell and cause them to spend eternity with him?

The logic is the same...

[Man of Steel]

Among other things, Man of Steel wrote..

"God has allowed children of the pagan peoples to be killed, but they'll spend an eternity with Christ in paradise and not be subject to the faults of those generations before them who will spend an eternity separated from God. "

Why wouldn't god use this great logic today to kill all the children he knows will not accept Jesus and therefore save them from hell and cause them to spend eternity with him?

The logic is the same...

I get you, I really do.  These pagan groups such as the Amalakites had hundreds of years to repent and turn to God, but they persisted in their evil ways and ignored God.  Sure today we have small sects of folks that may inflict harm upon a mass population (the Nazis for example), but we're talking about a massive population dedicated to evil and perverse, pagan rituals....different circumstances.  We can look at the Chinese today and say the majority of this nation can't stand Christianity, but the Chinese are nothing like the Amalakites or the Midianites.  They aren't engaging in the deviant perversions and human sacrifice like the pagan populations of the OT.   God stepped in and allowed these pagan peoples to be destroyed and in turn brought the population of children into eternity with him.  Generation after generation after generation were allowed to pervert the younger generation before them and turn them from God which condemned them to an eternity without God when they died.    So sure, God could just wipe out all the children before they become accountable for their actions and bring them into eternity with him, but that's not his will for us.  God wants us to seek him and desire a relationship with him.  He wants to be chosen by us.  If he dictates the terms of all situations what becomes of our free will?  What's the point of Christ, the cross, salvation, repentance or our very lives?  Again, if you remove Christ from the equation the remainder is meaningless, but when included you find purpose, choice, love, grace, mercy and salvation.

[James28]

So to sum up, there is NO proof of a God's existence. Never has been. EVER. The only reason you believe in God is by indoctrination and dogma. Had you been born elsewhere, you'd have believed in Buddha or Allah. Had you been born 500 years ago, Thor, Loki. Even further back, Raj, Osiris or the Sun. Hell, in ancient Egypt they prayed to Bastet, the cat god!! Or in France, Rudiobus, the horse God. 500 years into the future, who knows what fantasies will appear.

There is as much proof and theory for god's existence that there is for the Talking Potato God. You only champion this because of what your parents or teachers told you. Fucking hell, think about it. A magical invisible creature that had no beginning spoke some words and everything appeared? And you lot call yourself intelligent. You ask science to answer what's difficult to answer and when it can't, you run back to your religion fantasy as 'proof'. There is NO proof that a god exists. NONE. Science done a lot of us, it gave us EVERYTHING you see around you. What did your God give you? Death, war, genocide. Look at the fucking rednecks in middle America. They're off their fucking heads on religion. You're an outcast if you don't buy into this religion BS.

Science will one day answer everything. Not in this generation or the next, but it will give all the answers. Well, I suppose the stupidly ignorant will still cling to their dusty BS black books, even as the world moves on and beyond this childish and parasitic movement that is called religion. 

[Agnostic007]

well hell....that about says it all....

-end of thread-

[Man of Steel]

well hell....that about says it all....

-end of thread-

Not just yet.

So to sum up, there is NO proof of a God's existence. Never has been. EVER. The only reason you believe in God is by indoctrination and dogma. Had you been born elsewhere, you'd have believed in Buddha or Allah. Had you been born 500 years ago, Thor, Loki. Even further back, Raj, Osiris or the Sun. Hell, in ancient Egypt they prayed to Bastet, the cat god!! Or in France, Rudiobus, the horse God. 500 years into the future, who knows what fantasies will appear.

There is as much proof and theory for god's existence that there is for the Talking Potato God. You only champion this because of what your parents or teachers told you. Fucking hell, think about it. A magical invisible creature that had no beginning spoke some words and everything appeared? And you lot call yourself intelligent. You ask science to answer what's difficult to answer and when it can't, you run back to your religion fantasy as 'proof'. There is NO proof that a god exists. NONE. Science done a lot of us, it gave us EVERYTHING you see around you. What did your God give you? Death, war, genocide. Look at the fucking rednecks in middle America. They're off their fucking heads on religion. You're an outcast if you don't buy into this religion BS.

Science will one day answer everything. Not in this generation or the next, but it will give all the answers. Well, I suppose the stupidly ignorant will still cling to their dusty BS black books, even as the world moves on and beyond this childish and parasitic movement that is called religion.  

I believe in God for a number of reasons.  The primary reason I belief today is because of the wonderful works he's performed in my heart and in my life.  I have no doubt about his existence or who he is.  And thank the Lord I was raised in a Christian home in the United States...what an absolute blessing!  As believers we must seek out those less fortunate than us and share with them the message of salvation in Christ. As far as indoctrination and forced-fed dogma are concerned, the current population of teenagers are fleeing the Christian faith in droves despite the beliefs their Christian parents have tried to instill.  Our age of instant communication and data sharing is both wonderful and harmful.  Young kids and even some naive, ignorant adults are subject to the verbal onslaught of flawed communication online.  Children are leaving the church in mass numbers and it's up to our generation and our parent's generation to become better informed Christians.  Children no longer have to spend hours in a library pouring over stacks of books (which they wouldn't anyways LOL....they're kids!).  They can quickly Google any number of topics and fashion a flawed perspective based on the rantings of numerous educated fools.

Are far as proof is concerned the historicity of the bible simply is not in question any longer.  We have archeological proof to validate the claims of the bible.  We have the close proximity between Christ's resurrection and the New Testament writings, the vast number of NT manuscripts,  the eyewitness accounts after his resurrection, the transformation of Saul of Tarsus to confirm his existance.  This doesn't even consider the scientific validation.  We also have the ancient writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger that validate Christ's life.  In fact, we have less proof for the existance of someone like Alexander the Great than we do Jesus Christ.  Within the fields of biochemistry and microbiology we are continually finding increased complexity and imposible elegance in the design of human dna....the source of which is causing more and more scientists to believe in a creator.  The lead geneticist (Francis Collins) in the Human Genome project is a devout Christian and an expert in his field.  Even he indicated that 40% of the scientists in his field are now believers.   We find the same elegance and complexity in the design of the universe and a growing populations of physicists who continually return to the likelihood of an intelligent design singularity in the cosmos which can't be denied unless the realm of metaphysics is explored.  Multiverses, other dimensions, time and space fluctuations have been used to justify the removal of the intelligent design singularity, but thus far even our own Stephen Hawking can't dismiss it without consulting a metaphysical approach.  I find the metaphysical debate kinda funny in that the supernatural is used to refute the supernatural (in a sense).  Philosophy has all but given up on reasoning away the existance of God as our own moral code has been embedded into who we are.  We see a man drowning, we can't swim ourselves and think, "I've got to jump in and save that man."  This flies in the face our Darwinian, "only the strong will survive" mentality that would leave the man to drown without a bit of consideration for his well being.  So where did our intrinsic moral fiber originate?  The very concept of right and wrong that we all recognize and simply can't deny leaves the Godless philosphies flat....his presence is inherent in all of us whether we recognize his existance or not.  Step over to a scientific look, even carbon dating has been reviewed again and again and found that the billion year old universe is actually several thousands of years old given that the way we originally measured radioactive decay rates in carbon was flawed.  Correct the math and billions become thousands.  Within cellular biology with see the sheer complexity of cellular engines that power differing aspects of the cell who's probability for random chance ocurrance is near impossible.  Also the elegance of the design lends intself only to an intelligent designer.   In terms of Geology we see evidence of a worldwide flood.  Science, mathematics and history all help validate the existance of God not refute it.  

Now the mystery Gods of the Mediterrenean world have long since been debunked.  Mithra, Dionysis, Osiris, Horus, etc.....have all been debunked decades and decades ago.  The primary debunking (prior to any comparisons being made) are found in the 2nd century origination of these God myths.... the life of Christ and Christianity arose in the first century. The only exceptions to this debunking of timing are in reference to Horus and Osiris.  Further the sun God Horus has no ties or real comparisons to Jesus Christ.....just study Horus and Osiris and you'll find this true.  Everyone saw Religulous and the new generation of uninformed viewers feel prey to old an arguement that was debunked long before they were alive.  So why did the producers present the movie?  Oh I don't know, they hate Christians and love money and know the majority of the audience would be ignorant on these topics.  I'm no scientist, historian, etc....I'm just trying to learn like everyone else.

As C.S. Lewis so eloquently put it, "In the end there will be only two types of people.  Those that look at God and say 'thy will be done' and those that God looks at and says, 'Thy will be done'."   My hope and prayer is that the love of God be made evident in the lives of believers and nonbelievers alike.

[no parole]

So to sum up, there is NO proof of a God's existence. Never has been. EVER. The only reason you believe in God is by indoctrination and dogma. Had you been born elsewhere, you'd have believed in Buddha or Allah. Had you been born 500 years ago, Thor, Loki. Even further back, Raj, Osiris or the Sun. Hell, in ancient Egypt they prayed to Bastet, the cat god!! Or in France, Rudiobus, the horse God. 500 years into the future, who knows what fantasies will appear.

exactly.

I believe in God for a number of reasons.  The primary reason I belief today is because of the wonderful works he's performed in my heart and in my life.  I have no doubt about his existence or who he is.  And thank the Lord I was raised in a Christian home in the United States...what an absolute blessing!  As believers we must seek out those less fortunate than us and share with them the message of salvation in Christ.

And what about the testimonials of Jews or Muslims about the wonderful works their gods have done in their lives? Or others? They have it wrong and you have it right. Do you have any clue how devout and certain other people are on their own beliefs outside of your own, that even contradict yours? It's arrogant and delusional behavior on all of you.

[OTHstrong]

exactly.


And what about the testimonials of Jews or Muslims about the wonderful works their gods have done in their lives? Or others? They have it wrong and you have it right. Do you have any clue how devout and certain other people are on their own beliefs outside of your own, that even contradict yours? It's arrogant and delusional behavior on all of you.

Actually Jews, Muslims, and christian have the same character as there God with the major prophets being Moses, Samuel, Elijah, and Jeremiah. The difference is in more detailed points, so what you should have said is Buddhism and Hinduism as examples, so that no one here would know that you haven't really looked into any of these teachings, let alone read from any of their Scriptures respectively , hence not making you a credible contributor to the debates not having first hand knowledge from both sides

Having said that....I do understand your point

[no parole]

The difference is in more detailed points

Christianity states if you don't believe and follow Jesus, you go to hell.  All technicalities.

[OTHstrong]

Christianity states if you don't believe and follow Jesus, you go to hell.  All technicalities.

So you have read the Bible

[no parole]

So you have read the Bible

Salvation differs between the major religions, I should of worded it differently. I'm not going to argue your trite point. And furthermore, what I said still holds true because it's only in Christianity where Jesus is considered to be God himself in human form, so we are talking about different gods here.

[Skeletor]

In fact, we have less proof for the existance of someone like Alexander the Great than we do Jesus Christ.  

 

[OTHstrong]

Salvation differs between the major religions, I should of worded it differently. I'm not going to argue your trite point. And furthermore, what I said still holds true because it's only in Christianity where Jesus is considered to be God himself in human form, so we are talking about different gods here.

relax i was just fooling about

[Man of Steel]

exactly.


And what about the testimonials of Jews or Muslims about the wonderful works their gods have done in their lives? Or others? They have it wrong and you have it right. Do you have any clue how devout and certain other people are on their own beliefs outside of your own, that even contradict yours? It's arrogant and delusional behavior on all of you.

That's my primary reason for believing, but as I stated previously it's not my only reason.  The conversion of others is not that simple either (in most cases).  My testimony alone is not sufficient, it's just my personal relationship and experience with the God that I'm sharing....I only have one personal testimony to share so I share it.  If that's somehow deemed as arrogance I'm a bit helpless to do anything about that other than to state that arrogance has no place in my walk with Christ or my intent when sharing with others.  Further, the combination of definite historical, architectural and scientific proof coupled with empirical evidence don't often lend themselves to a state of utter delusion.

Now, the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament.  Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in a monotheistic God, but Jews and Muslims don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ as the son of God.  Further, Jews and Muslims are both passionate about their relationships with God, but they have one very distinct difference with Christians.....we believe and confirm the resurrected Christ and the gift of salvation this has provided.  A Christian's faith is firmly based in the resurrected, divine son of God in Jesus Christ; unfortunately, neither Jews or Muslims have the confirmation of a resurrected savior validated via eye witness testimony and the associated fulfillment of ancient prophecy (actually the Jews do they just don't belief it despite all evidence to the contrary).  Also, the documented eyewitness account of the resurrected Christ occurred within mere decades of it's occurance....this situation is limited to only Christianity.  The Muslim prophet Mohammed isn't given divine status along with Allah; in addition, Mohammed founded the Islamic belief system at a date much later than the founding of Christianity.  In fact, the Christian bible was already fully adopted and accepted canon while Mohammed was still alive.  Another tremendous difference is that the Islamic god Allah is far removed and impersonal from his followers.....a bit ironic given this equivalent state of passion you mentioned.  That said, the entire nature of relationship between Allah and Muslim and Christ and Christian is a completely different situation....one impersonal and one personal.  Sure, many Muslims belief in the transformative power of Allah, but as Christians we need to accept our Jewish and Islamic brothers and sisters and help them understand the divine trinity of God, the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ, the confirmed resurrection of Christ and the glorious salvation found in Christ Jesus.

So in summary, I do have some clue, but I have a lot to learn and hopefully God grants me a lot of life to continue learning it.

[Cliff Clavin]

dont believe everything that u read...