Who believes in God?

[reclifter]

My God, that's some small minded thinking right there! The "GOD" concept suggests that the creator isn't affected by earthly limitations - the alleged Creator is all Powerful, all Seeing and not limited by the same restrictions you are - Way to turn God into an Idiot!

I'm being serious here...what proof is there that God is any more real than Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny or The Tooth Fairy?

I will say, none of the aforementioned have a book "supposedly inspired" by them, that has been rewritten multiple times by man.

[reclifter]

Once again you guys are picking bits and pieces here and there, you have to see the entire picture, very simple to put it the way you are and looking like it's wong,. You guys have not read the Bible so you won't be able to understand some of it without reading the whole thing.

I expected a little more from you though, considering you are clearly 1 of the more educated guys on here Answere this.. is there 1 nation on the entire planet that didn't pave the way through slavery,.. No, do you want to know why? cause it is the only way a nation can survive, you can't change history, you guys think you could do a better job back then? Men have the same brains then as now, the only difference is lands now are already conquered, the days of conquest are over. Alternative methods are used that work that would result in chaos then and nations would be easy targets.

So my point slavery wasn't wrong back then weather it is approved by the Bible or not.

Great explanation...by your terms and explanations, why is premarital sex or homosexuality considered a sin?  After all, it is legal.

[maxer]

most adequate college educations will debunk the god myth

[Radical Plato]

Not believing in God is the ultimate in arrogance.

Hi God!

[OTHstrong]

As I've mentioned before, I've read the entire Bible (more than once, actually) in English and Greek.


Wow... just wow...

You wrote: "Slavery according to the Bible is a sin, why cause it is breaking the laws of the land, why wasn't it a sin in the days of Moses?,, ..simply because the laws of the land allowed slavery". You are, in essence, asserting that the God of the Bible doesn't see slavery itself as wrong - it's just one of those things that he's indifferent about - and that it was OK since it was legal back then.

Do you really believe that what is legal is, necessarily, moral? Is adultery, which is legal, also moral?

The question isn't whether the laws of the land allowed slavery or not! From a moral standpoint, slavery is either wrong or it isn't. I assert that whether two thousand years ago, to hundred years ago or two days ago slavery was wrong. I assert that regardless of the prevailing law of the land at the time, slavery was, is and will be wrong, no matter what the law happens to say.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it but anyone who has studied the origins of a nations and the history of war and how a nation has to assemble as one body to survive will disagree, you have to pick the lesser of 2 evil, incorporate slavery or run the risk of genocide.

So you have read the Bible, fair enough then you know God has commanded many evils upon man, so why are you surprised. The Bible follows 3 different approaches to one making a moral decision;...

 1. The decision has to be necessary, this is above all, is it necessary to kill someone to protect your family, yes. Is it a sin?,... yes. Is it accepted by God, yes

 2. The law of the land has to be followed no matter what, the Bible makes it clear. Is it a sin to work on the sabbath? yes, during the Babylonion exile the Israelites where forced to work on the sabbath, was it accepted by God,. yes.

 3. Finally the commandments, which where summarized into only 2 in the New Testament, Love God and Love your neighbor

You may find this conflicting but I don't cause the world doesn't turn smoothly you know and it doesn't always work to use one set of laws without any flexibility

[avxo]

Can you answer one simple question: are slavery and forced servitude immoral or not? It's a one-word answer one way or another.

[OTHstrong]

Great explanation...by your terms and explanations, why is premarital sex or homosexuality considered a sin?  After all, it is legal.

Just cause it is legal doesn't mean it is not a sin, it doesn't work that way nor did I say that it did. What I said was if by keeping the law of the land you are caused to sin then it becomes accepted by God because you have to keep the law of the land.

[OTHstrong]

Can you answer one simple question: are slavery and forced servitude immoral or not? It's a one-word answer one way or another.

but it isn't a one word answere though.

put it this way, you know a guy is going to kill and rape 10 girls in the next 24 hours, I would consider my decision to kill him a moral one.

[avxo]

but it isn't a one word answere though.

It is. Either forced servitude is wrong or it isn't.

put it this way, you know a guy is going to kill and rape 10 girls in the next 24 hours, I would consider my decision to kill him a moral one.

It is immoral to initiate force. It is not immoral to use force against someone who initiated its use.

[OTHstrong]

It is. Either forced servitude is wrong or it isn't.

It is immoral to initiate force. It is not immoral to use force against someone who initiated its use.

Bro you are acting way to political here, different situations call for different measures. Slavery was not immoral when it was necessary.

[avxo]

Bro you are acting way to political here, different situations call for different measures. Slavery was not immoral when it was necessary.

So you are claiming that what is necessary is moral? That's neat, I guess.

Name one case when, according to you, slavery was necessary.

[Radical Plato]

Can you answer one simple question: are slavery and forced servitude immoral or not? It's a one-word answer one way or another.

From the Slaves perspective, yes - from the slave owners NO!

[OTHstrong]

So you are claiming that what is necessary is moral? That's neat, I guess.

Name one case when, according to you, slavery was necessary.

Every case in antequity, every single case, If you didn't rely on a massive workforce your nation would be overthrown within minutes.

After Cyrus defeated the Babylonians he declared heavy slavery and was the birth to the achaemenid dynasty. Later Darius withdrew 30% of it's slavery from the workforce to incorporate trade and commerce cause the city of Babylon was a thriving metropolis and visitors where coming from all over the world

On the other end half of Greece was preparing for an invasion. Not only did the Greeks have heavy slavery but also where killing children at birth with deformities, creating a military stronghold

After the greeks attacked, although outnumbered 2 to 1 by the Persians, Alexander took out their flanks and the Persian couldn't use there numbers cause they didn't have enough equipment due to low production.

[calfzilla]

To the OP, just because we don't understand something doesn't mean god exists. Also there is a huge difference IMO between god (if one does exist) and religion. All religions are crap and shams to control people and get power. If god exists which I don't believe, he ain't talking to anyone on earth nor does he care who prays to him.

[garebear]

God gonna hurt you a real bad.

[avxo]

It's unclear that slavery was necessary in the cases you cite. But even if it was, necessity doesn't imply that something is moral; the end doesn't justify the means.

You may need a fancy car - your need doesn't make stealing my car moral.

You may need food. Your need doesn't make taking my food moral.

You may need someone to work on your fields or in your company. Your need does not mean for in me to work for you against my wishes moral.

Your needs don't give you a blank check tto use others.

[OTHstrong]

It's unclear that slavery was necessary in the cases you cite. But even if it was, necessity doesn't imply that something is moral; the end doesn't justify the means.

You may need a fancy car - your need doesn't make stealing my car moral.

You may need food. Your need doesn't make taking my food moral.

You may need someone to work on your fields or in your company. Your need does not mean for in me to work for you against my wishes moral.

Your needs don't give you a blank check tto use others.

When there is a cause necessity does imply that something is moral. the end doesn't justify the means, however picking the lesser of 2 evils is a good moral decision for those involved, always.

[Griffith]

There's no such thing as 'sin' or 'immorality', these are all man made concepts and vary according to the current norms and culture.

Humans are animals just like any other animals, only difference is that we developed speech which allowed us to process our thoughts in words. I believe speech is what triggered the development of our brains, not to mention the transfer of collective knowledge which other other animals aren't capable of.

If you leave a human being to grow up in the bush without any education or previous knowledge of human civilization, they would behave just like any other animal. Without being taught the difference between right or wrong, the concept wouldn't exist. Like all animals, they would do whatever is necessary to survive.

There is no built in mechanism of right and wrong.

[Griffith]

While this is a reasonable position, I'd like to play God's advocate for a moment. On your view, what can be said of seemingly immoral events like the Holocaust? The vocabulary of morality bunk as it is, there can be no ascriptions of 'immorality' or 'wrongness.' So, how do you properly describe the event? Also, you need to explain why moral language is ubiquitous despite its being bunk. How is it that everyone on the planet competently uses the language and understands the words if it is all an illusion?

What I mean by 'immorality' or 'wrongness' is that it is whatever we've been taught or conditioned to believe.

In the case of the Holocaust, if German children were brought up to believe that killing Jews was a good thing and the right thing to do, then they would not have viewed it as 'wrong'.

[Radical Plato]

What I mean by 'immorality' or 'wrongness' is that it is whatever we've been taught or conditioned to believe.

In the case of the Holocaust, if German children were brought up to believe that killing Jews was a good thing and the right thing to do, then they would not have viewed it as 'wrong'.

Wrong is what those in power decide is wrong - these will include murder, rape and theft - that is unless you do them on a mass scale on a weaker more vulnerable civilisation, then you are a Freedom Fighter for the Good of the World!

[Donny]

God gonna hurt you a real bad.

Go read your Bible

[El Diablo Blanco]

I don't understand the logic that God gave men free will, but then created rules and morals they must follow.  Doesn't sound like free will then.

[avxo]

When there is a cause necessity does imply that something is moral. the end doesn't justify the means, however picking the lesser of 2 evils is a good moral decision for those involved, always.

So if you need my car it's moral for you to steal it. Got it!

[El Diablo Blanco]

So if you need my car it's moral for you to steal it. Got it!

Is it stealing or taking? 

[avxo]

Is it stealing or taking?

He said that cause, by necessity, makes the action moral. So, if he needs my car and I refuse to give it to him, according to him since he needs it, it's moral to take it. Since I refuse to give it to him, he has to take it by force - either by beating me up and taking the keys or by breaking a window and hot-wiring it. Either way, he takes my car without my consent. I call that stealing.

I assert that stealing my car is immoral. He says that stealing my car is OK as long as he really needs the car.