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Author Topic: The bible and the trinity (or lack of it)  (Read 6169 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #125 on: October 03, 2012, 04:48:07 PM »

Male plants spread their 'sperm' onto female plants. So whether its a penis or not. You are uttering that God is a human/man and male. Guess what all human male men have?

Mary is a human female woman with a vagina.

Muslims believe in the revelations that were given to Moses, but we know that the torah in it's entirity and the OT in it's entirety is not what was revealed to moses but includes other writings.

We believe in the torah (what was revealed to moses), the zabur (what was david's), jesus's gospel (injeel) and quran (as revealed through muhammad).

The bible consists of OT and NT... books... the OT apocrypha includes more books that are not included in the bible.. the NT apocrypha includes more books that are not included in the bible.
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« Reply #126 on: October 03, 2012, 04:58:33 PM »

Wrong big time, there are different definitions of the word male. Some don't have anything to do sexual functions and only one of it's definitions does. So according to you guys a male plant has to have a penis?  lol, AH No, of course not.

Now, correct me if I am wrong but don't Muslims believe in the Torah?... Well the Torah says God is a male.

Lol well the words "male" and "female" are used for plants to differentiate between two types.  Since God is one, by definition there are no "two types/genders" that need to exist.

What then do you consider to be the definition of male that the Bible uses?  
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« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2012, 05:15:34 PM »

Quote
male /māl/

Adjective:   
Of or denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, esp. spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or...: "male children"

Noun:   
A male person, plant, or animal.

Synonyms:   
adjective.  masculine - manly - virile - manlike
noun.  man - he - mate - bull

Quote
male   [meyl]

noun
1. a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
2. an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete.
3. Botany . a staminate plant.

adjective
4. of, pertaining to, or being a male animal or plant.
5. pertaining to or characteristic of a male person; masculine: a male voice.
6. composed of males: a male choir.
7. Botany .
a. designating or pertaining to a plant or its reproductive structure producing or containing microspores.
b. (of seed plants) staminate.
8. Machinery . made to fit into a corresponding open or recessed part: a male plug. Compare female ( def. 8 ) .

Quote
be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1.(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2.to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

Quote
procreate  pro·cre·ate (prō'krē-āt')
v. pro·cre·at·ed , pro·cre·at·ing , pro·cre·ates


 To beget and conceive offspring; to reproduce.
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« Reply #128 on: October 03, 2012, 05:23:07 PM »

Male plants spread their 'sperm' onto female plants. So whether its a penis or not. You are uttering that God is a human/man and male. Guess what all human male men have?

Mary is a human female woman with a vagina.

Muslims believe in the revelations that were given to Moses, but we know that the torah in it's entirity and the OT in it's entirety is not what was revealed to moses but includes other writings.

We believe in the torah (what was revealed to moses), the zabur (what was david's), jesus's gospel (injeel) and quran (as revealed through muhammad).

The bible consists of OT and NT... books... the OT apocrypha includes more books that are not included in the bible.. the NT apocrypha includes more books that are not included in the bible.
Don`t be so naive bro, I am not uttering anything like you say. You are putting words in my mouth. I said God is male, the Hebrew term for male in the old testament is not a man with a penis, it is someone with masculine features and the O T states angels are male and they don`t have sexual organs.

But all this doesn`t matter cause guess what the 5 books of Moses that Muslims believe in that are in the Torah says God is a male. Bro I have read everything, every single manuscript known to man, The Bible, The Koran, The Book of Enoch, Jasher, The book of Jubilees and the Apocrypha books, every thing you can think of and they all say God`s a male, so maybe you have not read the Koran bro but here is a reminder.

He says, "There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him." (42:11) And Surat al-Ikhlas, one of the first suras memorized by Muslim children everywhere, reads, " Say, “The truth is that Allah is One. Allah is Besought of all, needing none. He begot not, nor was He begotten. And like Him has never been any one."" (Quran, 112:1—4)


END OF ARGUMENT UNLESS YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE kORAN


Lol well the words "male" and "female" are used for plants to differentiate between two types.  Since God is one, by definition there are no "two types/genders" that need to exist.

What then do you consider to be the definition of male that the Bible uses?  
Bro the argument is over  Wink   read above

To deny this is to go against the Koran  Smiley

No hard feelings  Cool
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« Reply #129 on: October 03, 2012, 05:29:54 PM »

lol if you read all those which i have too. You would be aware that in semetic languages there are two traits.

1.
a. We is used when God speaks of himself not because its multiple gods but as a royal we, when a king says "we have decided" when in reality the king has decided.

b. In hebrew God is mentioned by Ellohim. Notice Elloh in there. Elloh means god, Ellohim literally means gods, but it is the plural of respect yet again.

Even Muhammad when he is mentioned in the torah is mentioned as Muhamadim with a plural at the end.

2.
He is used whenever speaking of God as you are limited to what? He, she, it, we.

-If you say It, it's disrespectful and it is used merely for objects or strange things, no respect in it.

-We I already explained

-She, which means God could be impregnated

-He, is the only option left in our languages.

Jews never genderized God as male literally like you trinitarian christians do

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God


Why? Because there is nothing comparable to God in the creation. Everything within the creation is created by God while God is the creator and unique.

Jews like Muslims, and 'unitarian christians' hold the same view that nothing in creation resembles God and that we should not worship the creation but the Creator.

The only time this again became a 'debate' was amongst feminists who like yourself lacking understanding started arguing about God's 'male gender', and there are feminist books that change the bible to say "She". Pretty retarded.

Do please check out the verses in the bible where God is called a mother. Yet still Jews never literally attributed gender to God. So you are the only ones bringing about this, amongst polytheists.

Unitarian christians are a step ahead of you, abandon these fabricated later beliefs and return to the original message of Jesus.
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« Reply #130 on: October 03, 2012, 05:51:22 PM »

lol if you read all those which i have too. You would be aware that in semetic languages there are two traits.

1.
a. We is used when God speaks of himself not because its multiple gods but as a royal we, when a king says "we have decided" when in reality the king has decided.

b. In hebrew God is mentioned by Ellohim. Notice Elloh in there. Elloh means god, Ellohim literally means gods, but it is the plural of respect yet again.

Even Muhammad when he is mentioned in the torah is mentioned as Muhamadim with a plural at the end.

2.
He is used whenever speaking of God as you are limited to what? He, she, it, we.

-If you say It, it's disrespectful and it is used merely for objects or strange things, no respect in it.

-We I already explained

-She, which means God could be impregnated

-He, is the only option left in our languages.

Jews never genderized God as male literally like you trinitarian christians do

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God


Why? Because there is nothing comparable to God in the creation. Everything within the creation is created by God while God is the creator and unique.

Jews like Muslims, and 'unitarian christians' hold the same view that nothing in creation resembles God and that we should not worship the creation but the Creator.

The only time this again became a 'debate' was amongst feminists who like yourself lacking understanding started arguing about God's 'male gender', and there are feminist books that change the bible to say "She". Pretty retarded.

Do please check out the verses in the bible where God is called a mother. Yet still Jews never literally attributed gender to God. So you are the only ones bringing about this, amongst polytheists.

Unitarian christians are a step ahead of you, abandon these fabricated later beliefs and return to the original message of Jesus.
I don`t remember such verse, I could be wrong but please show me the verse.

Also I believe what you are saying about God being the creator, this does not interfere with him being a male. See angels are not made of flesh, they can travel through space at the speed of light and they can kill an army of man by themselves, yet while they are here on earth they eat drink and sleep, these are thing we can not understand. The truth of the matter is they are not humans but can be as humans in human form if they want. So God has many forms not just 1 form how you guys limit him to.
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« Reply #131 on: October 03, 2012, 07:23:26 PM »

God created GENDER, God is not male or female.

Analogically according to the bible God compares himself to action of females, males and children, comparing himself in that sense. It's in the gender wiki.

None the less none of these mean God is either of these things. God created his creatures/creation and gave them gender.

For instance even in this verse if we are to take it as an example:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

We don't believe this verse obviously and definetely not literally as christians do, as that would contradict the verses which indicate God not resembling his creation. Jews who Jesus was from and thought to, did not believe God was literally male either. All Jews reject this notion of God having literally gender.

Thus trinitarians are the only ones misinterpreting this whole issue because they are following Paul's teachings about God literally being a man, Jesus being God.

Jesus' followers knew very well that Jesus was a rabi and a prophet. Not God. Only Paul later brought this about.
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« Reply #132 on: October 03, 2012, 07:32:22 PM »

Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."

Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair.  

We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him.  If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?

But you believe that he's not above being able to split himself in three? What else do you believe he's not above?
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« Reply #133 on: October 03, 2012, 07:39:39 PM »

But you believe that he's not above being able to split himself in three? What else do you believe he's not above?

See that's funny. This is the kind of problem a christian would have we muslims don't have.

What I mean is, what you said is basically 'cant God do everything and anything'.

It's a typical question that confuses Christians.

For example: Can God create a rock He himself cannot lift.

To me this is easy to answer, to a christian it is not as they become stunned because they always use the God can do anything and therefore he became a human/etc...

However this question is invalid to begin with just as your question is invalid to begin with.

God is one and absolute. If he 'becomes' something else he seizes to be God. Therefore its an invalid question.

God would not 'create something he himself cant lift' that makes no sense, because weight is a limited function created by God in this universe. A law that we must obide by. Like many other limitations that remind us that we are dependant of God. Death for instance is by design decreed. All creatures have a beginning and an end, while God is eternal and as he brings us to life will bring us back again to life. This world is merely transitory for us.

We don't believe God is physically in this world or in this universe. We believe God to be above his creation, what that exactly means we do not know, but we certainly don't believe in pantheism but some christians like trinitarians do, they even believe that God 'dwells' in them.. I never accepted believing in this even as a christian even though we were thought this in christianity.
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« Reply #134 on: October 04, 2012, 09:19:25 AM »

God is one and absolute. If he 'becomes' something else he seizes to be God. Therefore its an invalid question.

Why? cause you said so, lol. God can be anything he wants to be and he still doesn`t stop being God, he can be a human if he wants and walk here on earth if he wants. You`re logic is outrageous, according to you, no matter what God can`t come down to earth as a human, it`s impossible, there is no way he can do that, WOW, you got some issues bro, just cause you say he can`t does not mean he can`t.

You believe in the book of Exodus right? OK, quote from the Exodus...`

 `God is a man of war``
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« Reply #135 on: October 04, 2012, 09:40:22 AM »

In reference to your quote:

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? Numbers 23:19

You just prove that the bible is not God's word, not unchanged. I do not believe in the bible as it is today. I believe theoretically in what God revealed to Moses. We do not have that today. As a christian I believed in the bible, but I could see that it had men's words in them.

Will they not, then, try to understand this Qur’an? Had it issued from any but God, they would surely have found in it many an inner contradiction! 4:82

Because by definition God is eternal, unique, absolute.

God is absolute and unchanging. There are several verses in the bible regarding that too:

Malachi 3:6: "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

James 1:17: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."


God changing, means changing from being God, into something else. Period.

Just think about it. He is the one who posesses all knowledge, is eternal, absolute, nothing compares to him.

It's through philosophical and theological monotheistic point of view an absolute. Unless you go away from monotheism and start believing in pantheism and polytheism... as from some things the trinitarian christians on here have professed.
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« Reply #136 on: October 04, 2012, 09:42:32 AM »

God is one and absolute. If he 'becomes' something else he seizes to be God. Therefore its an invalid question.

Why? cause you said so, lol. God can be anything he wants to be and he still doesn`t stop being God, he can be a human if he wants and walk here on earth if he wants. You`re logic is outrageous, according to you, no matter what God can`t come down to earth as a human, it`s impossible, there is no way he can do that, WOW, you got some issues bro, just cause you say he can`t does not mean he can`t.

You believe in the book of Exodus right? OK, quote from the Exodus...`

 `God is a man of war``

Yes, God can do anything, but we believe God does not do inappropriate/humanly/imperfect things (like bare a child, live in a womb, talk to himself, etc.), He does Godly things instead  Cool
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« Reply #137 on: October 04, 2012, 09:47:11 AM »

Yes, God can do anything, but we believe God does not do inappropriate/humanly/imperfect things (like bare a child, live in a womb, talk to himself, etc.), He does Godly things instead  Cool
Thanks bigbobs, I can live with that. At least you admit God can do anything, Ahmed on the other hand says it`s impossible.
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« Reply #138 on: October 04, 2012, 09:49:44 AM »

Bigbobs doesn't say that God can become a human being. Bigbobs also does not believe that God changes God is. Eternal, absolute.

God becoming something else becomes something else. Is no longer God. Unless you're a pantheist or polytheist, which you and man of steel sound alot like, not a monotheist.

God is absolute and eternal. Changing means not being God.

You missed those verses about God being unchanging in the bible.

Do you realize how ridiculous it is that, God commands to not worship anything in creation in the ten commandments, then changes his opinion becomes a man and asks you to worship a man.
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« Reply #139 on: October 04, 2012, 09:52:51 AM »

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9

There is no one like God. There's alot of humans that are a lot like humans Smiley

"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9


The above reminds me of someone who asked about the 'three in heaven' even though that's a well known fabricated verse and that person misunderstood the 'we' used in semetic languages, but it proves there is God... period.

Monotheism at it's finest.
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« Reply #140 on: October 04, 2012, 09:59:52 AM »

Bigbobs doesn't say that God can become a human being. Bigbobs also does not believe that God changes God is. Eternal, absolute.

God becoming something else becomes something else. Is no longer God. Unless you're a pantheist or polytheist, which you and man of steel sound alot like, not a monotheist.

God is absolute and eternal. Changing means not being God.

You missed those verses about God being unchanging in the bible.

Do you realize how ridiculous it is that, God commands to not worship anything in creation in the ten commandments, then changes his opinion becomes a man and asks you to worship a man.
Yes he did, he said it was possible, but he said he wouldn`t
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« Reply #141 on: October 04, 2012, 10:02:05 AM »

You make no sense and you just lied against God. God said he wouldn't but could? What?

Here lets take another look at what the bible also says:

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' Psalm 82:6

Another proof that the bible cannot be fully trusted as it is not the word of God. That's why people differ. People who recognize the message of all the prophets which was the oneness of God.. and those that blaspheme against God contradicting the monotheistic belief with pantheism and polytheism.

This verse just keeps reverberating in my head every time I hear you speak and bring something new:

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! Quran 3.78 ( Surat Al-Imran , verse 78)
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« Reply #142 on: October 04, 2012, 10:11:22 AM »

Yes he did, he said it was possible, but he said he wouldn`t

I made a general comment that God can do anything, but to take that general comment and question whether God can make himself imperfect (like a human) comes back to the question "Can God create a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?"

The "God can do anything" argument will say "yes" to that question, but then the "God can do anything" argument can not explain why he can't lift it. 

In other words using the "God can do anything" argument does not stand when applying it towards imperfections, such as "Can God become human?"
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« Reply #143 on: October 04, 2012, 10:13:27 AM »

You make no sense and you just lied against God. God said he wouldn't but could? What?

Here lets take another look at what the bible also says:

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' Psalm 82:6

Another proof that the bible cannot be fully trusted as it is not the word of God. That's why people differ. People who recognize the message of all the prophets which was the oneness of God.. and those that blaspheme against God contradicting the monotheistic belief with pantheism and polytheism.

This verse just keeps reverberating in my head every time I hear you speak and bring something new:

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! Quran 3.78 ( Surat Al-Imran , verse 78)
What are you talking about bro?     You said....  Bigbobs doesn't say that God can become a human    

and I said that bigbobs did say that God could become human, bigbob said God can do anything, then I said, but bigbobs said God wouldn`t, wooooooooooooosh

lol, I lied against God, what?  lol    
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« Reply #144 on: October 04, 2012, 10:13:55 AM »

Can God become a tree?

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:1-17

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Deuteronomy 5:4-21

Humans tend to be on the earth, even in space now, even on the sea and under the sea... and there are plenty like us.

"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10



So yes you lie against God by bringing forth lies and distortions.. introducing pantheism and polytheism
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« Reply #145 on: October 04, 2012, 10:15:38 AM »

I made a general comment that God can do anything, but to take that general comment and question whether God can make himself imperfect (like a human) comes back to the question "Can God create a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?"

The "God can do anything" argument will say "yes" to that question, but then the "God can do anything" argument can not explain why he can't lift it. 

In other words using the "God can do anything" argument does not stand when applying it towards imperfections, such as "Can God become human?"

Now we are arguing over non-sense. we are way off topic here
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« Reply #146 on: October 04, 2012, 10:16:40 AM »

Can God become a tree?
yes
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« Reply #147 on: October 04, 2012, 10:16:48 AM »

Like I posted earlier in this thread or in another one (can't recall now), have you considered that the "son of God" title is not meant to be taken literally?

Keep in mind there are countless quotes in the Bible where other individuals as well as whole populations are referred to as "son of God" or "sons of God."  
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« Reply #148 on: October 04, 2012, 10:18:56 AM »

Now we are arguing over non-sense. we are way off topic here

No we're not. We are coming to understand how you worship like a pantheist or polytheist not a monotheist.

yes

So if I chop up that tree is that still God?
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« Reply #149 on: October 04, 2012, 10:19:26 AM »

yes

And would that mean He would now be a tree and no longer God?  By definition you can't be two things at once.
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