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Author Topic: The bible and the trinity (or lack of it)  (Read 8401 times)
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« Reply #175 on: October 04, 2012, 12:33:10 PM »

In case you didn't know we are 2 billion people today following Muhammad (pbuh) and growing.

Unlike the bible, the quran is the word of God. Unlike the bible, the quran does not contradict itself like the bible does over and over again. Hence your confusion.

Unlike Jesus (peace be upon him), we have details about Muhammad (pbuh) witnessed by tens of thousands. Your only witness is a fraud Paul who was in fact an oppressor and bounty hunter of the real followers of Jesus.

The teachings and beliefs of the original followers of Jesus have been lost, what we have are later beliefs by Paul which overtook the original christianity as in the church of jerusalem.



If a deacon, a reverent, a doctor of divinity, a seminary who studied and held the original texts, studied where, how, when, by whom these were written, added, manipulated, even the reasons why they were changed, can become a Muslim. So can you.

He like many learned christian theologians has a hard time living with himself inside himself preaching lies but knowing they are lies.

I may not have had a doctorate in divinity but i had the same problem studying and knowing the bible and its history, and the history of christianity

I'm happy to share my faith with you anytime you would like.  The Holy Spirit has done a wonderful work in my life....a real, tangible, life changing work.  I'm no scholar or theologian, but I do know the absolute, reality of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus Christ transformed me and he can transform you to if you'll follow his example of submission (to the Father).  Christ is one with the Father and Holy Spirit, but surrenders to the Father in a divine example of how we should surrender to the will of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Believe in him, confess with your mouth and be saved....easy-peasy friend.
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« Reply #176 on: October 04, 2012, 12:35:28 PM »

I submit my will to God almighty. I believe in all the prophets of God from Adam until Muhammad (peace be upon them all) and in between there of course Jesus (peace be upon him)

This 2nd god you refer to is meaningless to mention. Holy ghost? Holy spirit? Apparently according to your friend 'God', was in the womb of a woman for 9 months. He called this the holy spirit. Now that ghost is dwelling in you and you are FEEELING THE POWER. Your friend also believes that God can become a tree so I guess that would make the 'holy spirit' dwell in that piece of wood? Because "God can do anything"

You two utter nothing but your own conjectures and non-sense. Been there done that as a Christian. So Jesus was just trying to 'show us' how to be good believers by submitting himself to God while he jesus in fact is God. You make up things as you go.



No thanks.

You invite me to worship 3 entities and do away with God's law. What do we get from this? People who do whatever they like and are 'saved' and automatically get a free pass to heaven. Laughable at best, yet very very very disturbing and sad.

'Folowers of Jesus' who club Saturday night and attend mass Sunday morning? A leader of a nation who starts wars and kills millions but says he is saved and Jesus died for his 'many sins that he commits regularly on a daily basis'

I invite you to worship God alone. God is one. Jesus worshipped God and was created by God.
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« Reply #177 on: October 04, 2012, 12:44:07 PM »

In job it talks about ``the sons of God`` and in Genesis 6 also, referring to the angels. then there is children of God as a nation but you have to give me a quote where it refers to an individual human being as `the son of God`` cause I don`t know any of these verses you are referring to.

1)  For starters if angels and a nation can be called son of God (I'm assuming you agree that this is metamorphical) then why is the "son of God" title for Jesus literal?  Sounds like selective translation.

2)  Secondly, regarding individual humans getting the same title here are two (Solomon and Adam):

1 Chronicles 22:10 "He (Solomon) shall build a house for my name.  He shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever."

Luke 3:38 "Cainan was the son of Enos.  Enos was the son of Seth.  Seth was the son of Adam.  Adam was the son of God."
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« Reply #178 on: October 04, 2012, 12:51:13 PM »

I submit my will to God almighty. I believe in all the prophets of God from Adam until Muhammad (peace be upon them all) and in between there of course Jesus (peace be upon him)

This 2nd god you refer to is meaningless to mention. Holy ghost? Holy spirit? Apparently according to your friend 'God', was in the womb of a woman for 9 months. He called this the holy spirit. Now that ghost is dwelling in you and you are FEEELING THE POWER. Your friend also believes that God can become a tree so I guess that would make the 'holy spirit' dwell in that piece of wood? Because "God can do anything"

You two utter nothing but your own conjectures and non-sense. Been there done that as a Christian. So Jesus was just trying to 'show us' how to be good believers by submitting himself to God while he jesus in fact is God. You make up things as you go.



No thanks.

You invite me to worship 3 entities and do away with God's law. What do we get from this? People who do whatever they like and are 'saved' and automatically get a free pass to heaven. Laughable at best, yet very very very disturbing and sad.

'Folowers of Jesus' who club Saturday night and attend mass Sunday morning?

I invite you to worship God alone. God is one. Jesus worshipped God and was created by God.

ahmed, you can dispense with the "I'm a former Christian" notion.....the veils been lifted off my eyes - I know the difference.  This post alone speaks volumes.  That said, I'm happy to do my very best to share my faith with you and will do so willingly and happily.
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« Reply #179 on: October 04, 2012, 12:51:27 PM »

1)  For starters if angels and a nation can be called son of God (I'm assuming you agree that this is metamorphical) then why is the "son of God" title for Jesus literal?  Sounds like selective translation.

2)  Secondly, regarding individual humans getting the same title here are two (Solomon and Adam):

1 Chronicles 22:10 "He (Solomon) shall build a house for my name.  He shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever."

Luke 3:38 "Cainan was the son of Enos.  Enos was the son of Seth.  Seth was the son of Adam.  Adam was the son of God."
Your first point is valid question, very good bigbob and I will address it later when I have time. As for Solomon, again he was a king of the nation of God's chosen people same as Dave and Adam was the first human so these are bad examples, you've yet to show me a man, a commoner, not a king of a nation that God refers to as his children.
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« Reply #180 on: October 04, 2012, 12:54:18 PM »

ahmed, you can dispense with the "I'm a former Christian" notion.....the veils been lifted off my eyes - I know the difference.  This post alone speaks volumes.  That said, I'm happy to do my very best to share my faith with you and will do so willingly and happily.

No verily there is a veil over your heart:

{"Truly, We have set veils over their hearts so that they do not understand this (Qur'an), and deafness in their ears..."} [al-Kahf; 57]

{"They are those upon whose hearts, hearing, and sight Allah has set a seal."} [an-Nahl; 108]

{"Have you seen he who takes his own lust as his god, and Allah, knowing him as such, has left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and put a cover on his sight?"} [al-Jathiyah; 23]


Quote

Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus

Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. He received his knowledge from "revelations."

Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying.

Paul declared he was teaching another Gospel of which he himself was the Father

Paul issued his own commandments and laws for people to adhere to

Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did.

Paul worked to destroy and undo everything Jesus and His disciples did and were doing.

Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor of Christians at that time! He boasted about it! Over and Over!

Paul said God's law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who's lying?

Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14,  something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5.

Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what “he preached.” He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads - “That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.” He's telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!"

Paul cursed Jesus and His disciples

Paul Supported and demanded Adherence to Iniquity (Discrimination), Jesus said to not let it be found among us! Who's lying?

In essence a big portion of the new testament is just paul's ramblings.
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« Reply #181 on: October 04, 2012, 12:55:25 PM »

Your first point is valid question, very good bigbob and I will address it later when I have time. As for Solomon, again he was a king of the nation of God's chosen people same as Dave and Adam was the first human so these are bad examples, you've yet to show me a man, a commoner, not a king of a nation that God refers to as his children.

Jesus: "DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER; for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, HE who is in heaven"
(Matthew 23:9)

Confused yet? Let me make it simple for you. Stop worshipping a human being. Worship God alone. Jesus is not a god/demi-god/deity.

You are arguing now that it must be a 'king' or 'someone important' to be valid? So how does that change the fact that it's right there in the bible and that therfore jesus is not the 'only son of god'.

lies upon lies, heaps upon heaps of lies.
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« Reply #182 on: October 04, 2012, 01:01:55 PM »

I am not arguing that it has to be a king, pay attention. Israel is God's chosen people. God calls the nation as a whole his children, when the nation crowns someone, God refers to the king (of Israel only) as his son, representing his children as his chosen nation, wow like talking to 12 year old. Any Biblical scholar knows this, hell even atheist know this.
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« Reply #183 on: October 04, 2012, 01:06:21 PM »

Yes any biblical scholar knows it is not literal. I know that too, and knew that from the time i went to sunday school.. and from the religious classes I had since elementary to high school. So you believe God had sex with mary and say jesus is the literal son.

Didn't you see the phrase about David being the begotten son of God? Even dubbed 'even the first born'




So any time now? Please answer the tree question.

FYI a 12 year old will understand that a human being that can poop, get hungry and can die is not God. Yet you can't understand it? What's that make you.
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« Reply #184 on: October 04, 2012, 02:28:57 PM »

Yes any biblical scholar knows it is not literal. I know that too, and knew that from the time i went to sunday school.. and from the religious classes I had since elementary to high school. So you believe God had sex with mary and say jesus is the literal son.

Didn't you see the phrase about David being the begotten son of God? Even dubbed 'even the first born'




So any time now? Please answer the tree question.

FYI a 12 year old will understand that a human being that can poop, get hungry and can die is not God. Yet you can't understand it? What's that make you.

Well God spoke to Moses through a bush:
Exodus 3:1-15
The Burning Bush
3 Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

God all spoke of the tree of wisdom and tree of life:
Genesis 3
The Fall
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” 11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 The Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
    cursed are you above all livestock
    and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
    and dust you shall eat
    all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
    and you shall bruise his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.”

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”

20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. 21 And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.


Is that what you mean?  Or are you just asking can God become a tree?  I suppose God could become a tree, but "God the Tree" couldn't be chopped down or burned up or washed out or destroyed in anyway unless he willed that as well.  
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« Reply #185 on: October 04, 2012, 02:31:27 PM »

So you think God became a bush? What if Moses put out the fire with water?

God didn't become a bush or a fire, he spoke to Moses through this apparition.

Don't you see you are trying to conjure up your own justification to your pantheistic and polytheistic beliefs?

It makes you no different than Hindus who are at least honest about their pantheism and polytheism.

Also the narrative of the tree eating, it seems to have clearly had human hands adding more entertainment to it. God inquiring about what adam did then adam denying it then the woman being questioned what have you done. Do you honestly think God would not know when they ate it? It makes no sense. Sorry. And then to top it off the woman gets 'cursed' as christians always believed.

That was the one thing for me when I was reading that as a kid. I never imagined God as a human there walking. However even back then I found it strange that the woman be 'cursed' and adam just kind of flying by.

Later of course the whole premise of 'original sin' turned me off even more. Even though it was a christian school, we had a sociology class. In it we studied a few different ways of viewing things. We observed the idea of being born pure vs being porn sinful/evil. The teacher 'encouraged' me to believe in the later, while I wrote an essay that babies are born pure and innoscent.
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« Reply #186 on: October 04, 2012, 02:44:27 PM »

Proof that Jesus was not praying to 'teach us' how to be 'goodly' but he prayed to God almighty:

MATTHEW 14:23 NKJ
23 And when He had sent the multitudes away, He went up on a mountain by Himself to pray. And when evening had come, He was alone there.


Why would he be alone to pray to God?

MATTHEW 26:53 NKJ
53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"


Again pantheistic/polytheistic 'christians' in here saying that God is bipolar yet again...

Why do you think Jesus would have to pray to God to send him armies of angels?

Jesus was a mighty servant of God but certainly not God.



36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there."
37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
38 Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them asleep, and said to Peter, "What, could you not watch with Me one hour?
41 "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."
43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

They were asleep and impatient, fell asleep, Jesus still continued to pray.
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« Reply #187 on: October 04, 2012, 02:47:51 PM »

Your first point is valid question, very good bigbob and I will address it later when I have time. As for Solomon, again he was a king of the nation of God's chosen people same as Dave and Adam was the first human so these are bad examples, you've yet to show me a man, a commoner, not a king of a nation that God refers to as his children.

Thanks Smiley  

I disagree that Solomon, Dave and Adam are bad examples because remember, I'm not saying that these three individuals are divine, my point of raising these three examples are to show that when the bible uses the term "son of God" its not meant to be taken literally.  Or if you disagree, then how do you differentiate between when "son of God" is literal vs. metaphorical?  It seems like selective translation to simply suggest that in Jesus' case it's literal vs. in all other cases it's metaphorical (I think it's metaphorical in all cases, as do Unitarian Christians).  

But again the question - how can you conclude when "son of God" is literal vs. metaphorical and why?
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« Reply #188 on: October 04, 2012, 02:49:32 PM »

This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.

Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! Grin
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« Reply #189 on: October 04, 2012, 02:52:20 PM »

This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.

Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! Grin

Go debate your end which awaits you by yourself. God awaits you as He awaits us all.
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« Reply #190 on: October 04, 2012, 02:53:14 PM »

So you think God became a bush? What if Moses put out the fire with water?

God didn't become a bush or a fire, he spoke to Moses through this apparition.

Don't you see you are trying to conjure up your own justification to your pantheistic and polytheistic beliefs?

It makes you no different than Hindus who are at least honest about their pantheism and polytheism.

Also the narrative of the tree eating, it seems to have clearly had human hands adding more entertainment to it. God inquiring about what adam did then adam denying it then the woman being questioned what have you done. Do you honestly think God would not know when they ate it? It makes no sense. Sorry. And then to top it off the woman gets 'cursed' as christians always believed.

That was the one thing for me when I was reading that as a kid. I never imagined God as a human there walking. However even back then I found it strange that the woman be 'cursed' and adam just kind of flying by.

Later of course the whole premise of 'original sin' turned me off even more. Even though it was a christian school, we had a sociology class. In it we studied a few different ways of viewing things. We observed the idea of being born pure vs being porn sinful/evil. The teacher 'encouraged' me to believe in the later, while I wrote an essay that babies are born pure and innoscent.

The title of that verse said "God spoke to Moses through a bush".  He spoke through a bush....through a bush.....while it was on fire.....but not consumed.  So, no you couldn't put out the burning bush with water unless God allowed that.  Did God become a bush?  No, again, he spoke through a bush....through a bush. 
























































































































.....through a bush.
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« Reply #191 on: October 04, 2012, 02:54:32 PM »

Finally we can agree on something. So therefore your argument is? That God became Jesus?

Or that maybe God commanded Jesus and Jesus was not God.

Like the bush, God commanded the bush to be on fire, God did not become a bush.
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« Reply #192 on: October 04, 2012, 02:54:47 PM »

This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.

Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! Grin

Glad you're enjoying it!
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« Reply #193 on: October 04, 2012, 02:56:16 PM »

Onetimehard said God can become a tree. I asked him what if I chopped up the tree or set it on fire? God seizes to exist? Makes no sense. It's pantheism not monotheism.
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« Reply #194 on: October 04, 2012, 02:56:53 PM »

Finally we can agree on something. So therefore your argument is? That God became Jesus?

Or that maybe God commanded Jesus and Jesus was not God.

Like the bush, God commanded the bush to be on fire, God did not become a bush.

What argument?  I don't have an argument.  

You asked if God could become a tree?  I gave an answer...that's it.
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« Reply #195 on: October 04, 2012, 02:59:25 PM »

Onetimehard said God can become a tree. I asked him what if I chopped up the tree or set it on fire? God seizes to exist? Makes no sense. It's pantheism not monotheism.

Oh....good stuff.
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« Reply #196 on: October 04, 2012, 03:00:40 PM »

No your friend was arguing that "God can do anything" you were missing in action.

He was trying to justify God becoming literally a human because "god can do anything"

So I said can God become a tree? He said yes.

So literally changing into a tree? I asked what happens if i chop up the tree?

According to the bible and quran, God is eternal and unchanging, and in fact there is a verse in the bible that says God is not a man that he changes or lies or not keep his promises. There are many verses regarding God being eternal and unchanging.

There are plenty of verses which say there is NOTHING comparable to God.

If NOTHING is comparable to God, how can objects in the creation be God?

If God becomes a man, he seizes to be God. If God becomes a 'tree' he seizes to be God.

God never changes or becomes any of these things. He is eternal and unchanging.

Oh....good stuff.

So you are proud of being pantheists like hindus? That God can become objects (idols), humans, animals, or can 'dwell inside you' or dwell in objects or creatures?
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« Reply #197 on: October 04, 2012, 03:07:02 PM »

No your friend was arguing that "God can do anything" you were missing in action.

He was trying to justify God becoming literally a human because "god can do anything"

So I said can God become a tree? He said yes.

So literally changing into a tree? I asked what happens if i chop up the tree?

According to the bible and quran, God is eternal and unchanging, and in fact there is a verse in the bible that says God is not a man that he changes or lies or not keep his promises. There are many verses regarding God being eternal and unchanging.

There are plenty of verses which say there is NOTHING comparable to God.

If NOTHING is comparable to God, how can objects in the creation be God?

If God becomes a man, he seizes to be God. If God becomes a 'tree' he seizes to be God.

God never changes or becomes any of these things. He is eternal and unchanging.

So you are proud of being pantheists like hindus? That God can become objects (idols), humans, animals, or can 'dwell inside you' or dwell in objects or creatures?
Yeah, I did that part of the discussion.  Like I've mentioned before I don't read all the post all the time.

Yes, God indwells believers via the Holy Spirit.

Oh, I'm not a Hindu pantheist....I'm a Christian.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #198 on: October 04, 2012, 03:12:55 PM »

You're a false christian, because you are not following Jesus, you are following Paul. Smiley What you profess is pantheism (that God is in things, objects, people, creatures, even in yourself literally) and polytheism that God has multiple personalities in individual seperate creatures

So you still haven't answered this one, you looove avoiding these verses:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36

This statement is true as we believe in it too. How can Jesus (pbuh) not know the time of the hour if he is God?

Muhammad (pbuh) asked Gabriel (pbuh) do you know the time of the hour to which Gabriel (pbuh) responded, the one who is asked does not know more than the one that is asking.
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Onetimehard
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Getbig V
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Jasher


« Reply #199 on: October 04, 2012, 05:06:41 PM »

This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.

Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! Grin
I have to agree with you, we are going in circles here.


Now that's funny 'the tree" question,  turns out God was once himself and a tree at the same time after all, lol, "the burning bush"   Grin
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