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Author Topic: The bible and the trinity (or lack of it)  (Read 7619 times)
Onetimehard
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« Reply #200 on: October 04, 2012, 05:14:31 PM »

Onetimehard said God can become a tree. I asked him what if I chopped up the tree or set it on fire? God seizes to exist? Makes no sense. It's pantheism not monotheism.
To answer your question since your so persistent and it's getting annoying. Go back and check my post I said God would be a tree and he would be God at the same time, he can be in 1000 places at once, he can be a 1000 different entities at once, your assumption is so stupid, you think he changes into a tree but stops being God, sorry but your God is pathetic. My God on the other hand is Omnipotent, a concept you don't understand even avxo has to correct you on this term. So you chopped up the tree, so what God is still God
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #201 on: October 04, 2012, 05:27:43 PM »

To answer your question since your so persistent and it's getting annoying. Go back and check my post I said God would be a tree and he would be God at the same time, he can be in 1000 places at once, he can be a 1000 different entities at once, your assumption is so stupid, you think he changes into a tree but stops being God, sorry but your God is pathetic. My God on the other hand is Omnipotent, a concept you don't understand even avxo has to correct you on this term. So you chopped up the tree, so what God is still God

That's called pantheism. No prophet of God was a pantheist. Even Paul didn't really go this far in blasphemy as you are. It's truly incredible. Indeed you are closer to Hindus in your beliefs than you are to Jesus (peace be upon him).

And fyi God was not a burning bush. God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. God did not 'become' a burning bush.

Does an announcer become a speaker when he speaks through a microphone? Of course not. He just uses the microphone and speaker as a means to transfer a message.
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #202 on: October 04, 2012, 05:39:21 PM »

That's called pantheism. No prophet of God was a pantheist. Even Paul didn't really go this far in blasphemy as you are. It's truly incredible. Indeed you are closer to Hindus in your beliefs than you are to Jesus (peace be upon him).

And fyi God was not a burning bush. God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. God did not 'become' a burning bush.

Does an announcer become a speaker when he speaks through a microphone? Of course not. He just uses the microphone and speaker as a means to transfer a message.

Your fundamental ways have clouded your perception, it was a joke,  did you not see the grin I put there, a joke, hello.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #203 on: October 04, 2012, 05:43:58 PM »

I would never joke about God.

"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10

'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
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« Reply #204 on: October 04, 2012, 10:38:19 PM »

Still waiting on an answer to the below.  Can't have it both ways Smiley


Thanks Smiley  

I disagree that Solomon, David and Adam are bad examples because remember, I'm not saying that these three individuals are divine, my point of raising these three examples are to show that when the bible uses the term "son of God" its not meant to be taken literally.  Or if you disagree, then how do you differentiate between when "son of God" is literal vs. metaphorical?  It seems like selective translation to simply suggest that in Jesus' case it's literal and when used in Solomon, David and Adam's cases + all others it's only metaphorical (I think it's metaphorical in all cases, as do Unitarian Christians).  

But again the question - how can you conclude when "son of God" is literal vs. metaphorical and why?
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« Reply #205 on: October 05, 2012, 05:19:02 AM »

From a theological point of view the Bible states that Jesus was created from God via the Holy Spirit whereas man was created 'in God's image' from the ground of the earth. Jesus would therefore have been created from one and the same 'matter' as God and would form a part of that Entity.

The Bible also says that only Jesus will return, there will be no more prophets but there will be many false prophets along the way...

This is all of course from a totally theological perspective.
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« Reply #206 on: October 05, 2012, 09:01:41 AM »

Go debate your end which awaits you by yourself. God awaits you as He awaits us all.

Looks like we touched a nerve: little Ahmed is afraid of death and non-existence; so he believes in fairy-tales that make death more palatable by making it not-quite-so-final. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #207 on: October 05, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »

From a theological point of view the Bible states that Jesus was created from God via the Holy Spirit whereas man was created 'in God's image' from the ground of the earth. Jesus would therefore have been created from one and the same 'matter' as God and would form a part of that Entity.

The Bible also says that only Jesus will return, there will be no more prophets but there will be many false prophets along the way...

This is all of course from a totally theological perspective.

Thanks for not anwering my question.  Again, how do you know when it's literal or metaphorical? 

You say the bible said that Jesus was created "from" God which makes apparently makes him distinct from Adam, Solomon and David - without showing me a reference but I'll give benefit of the doubt so even entertaining that gets back to the original question - is the "from God" literal or metamorphical?

And also, how do you know the "son of God" is NOT literal in David, Solomon or Adam's case?
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bigbobs
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« Reply #208 on: October 05, 2012, 10:01:09 AM »

There are two greek words - "pais" and "huios" that are translated as "son" in the Bible.  "Pais" is derived from Hebrew "ebed," which means servant or slave.  Therefore, the primary translation of "pais theou" is "servant of God" with "son of God" being the biased mistranslation. 

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament quotes "The Hebrew original of pais in the phrase pais theou, i.e. ebed, carries a stress on personal relationship and has first the sense of "slave.""

However, Bible translators use "servant" for "Pais Theou" in some verses describing David and Israel, but "son" or "holy child" when referring to Jesus.  Same greek phrase, but selective English translations.
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« Reply #209 on: October 05, 2012, 11:19:43 AM »

Thanks for not anwering my question.  Again, how do you know when it's literal or metaphorical?  

You say the bible said that Jesus was created "from" God which makes apparently makes him distinct from Adam, Solomon and David - without showing me a reference but I'll give benefit of the doubt so even entertaining that gets back to the original question - is the "from God" literal or metamorphical?

And also, how do you know the "son of God" is NOT literal in David, Solomon or Adam's case?

Because the New Testament states that Jesus will be seated at God's right hand at Judgement Day.

Who else but God's Son would sit at his right hand, and why not Adam, Solomon etc if they are also his 'son'?

The New Testament also states that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as I mentioned Adam was created from dust of the earth and not of the same 'matter' as God.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #210 on: October 05, 2012, 12:24:51 PM »

Because the New Testament states that Jesus will be seated at God's right hand at Judgement Day.

Who else but God's Son would sit at his right hand, and why not Adam, Solomon etc if they are also his 'son'?

Very, very weak logic IMO - that someone seated next to God on Judgement Day must be no other than his son.  So I guess the best man at my wedding would automatically be my biological child since I considered him close to be next to me on my important day?

Would have been much much stronger if Jesus had simply said, "I am God" or "I am the son of God" but of course that's quoted nowhere in the Bible because he had no reason to say it.  On the contrary he kept saying that God/Father is "greater than I" and he prayed to him.

The New Testament also states that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as I mentioned Adam was created from dust of the earth and not of the same 'matter' as God.

Verse that uses the word "conceive?"  And even if there is one, the earlier question still applies as to whether it's metaphorical or not.  
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #211 on: October 05, 2012, 12:47:18 PM »

Because the New Testament states that Jesus will be seated at God's right hand at Judgement Day.

Who else but God's Son would sit at his right hand, and why not Adam, Solomon etc if they are also his 'son'?

The New Testament also states that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as I mentioned Adam was created from dust of the earth and not of the same 'matter' as God.
Wow Griffith laying the smack down, from a theological perspective of course, but pretty simple mathematics, 1+1 = 2 but for Islam it =3  Cheesy

Perfect answer for bigbobs, he will be seated at the right hand of the father and he was born from a virgin, those 2 points is obvious enough for anyone to believe that when they say son of God it's a literal term.
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #212 on: October 05, 2012, 01:22:21 PM »

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.



Cmon now bigbobs everyone knows this

Seated on the right hand of the Father, conceived of the Holy ghost, 600 pophetic verses of the Messiah, yes Jesus is the Messiah even the Koran calls Jesus the Messiah and only Jesus. His second coming as well. This is overwhelming that Jesus is the son of God.
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« Reply #213 on: October 05, 2012, 01:41:22 PM »

Seated on the right hand of the Father, conceived of the Holy ghost, 600 pophetic verses of the Messiah, yes Jesus is the Messiah even the Koran calls Jesus the Messiah and only Jesus. His second coming as well. This is overwhelming that Jesus is the son of God.

Of the 5 items you mentioned, only the one of "conceived by the Holy ghost" can be considered as evidence IF it was stated by Jesus himself, BUT it was not.  Is it too much to ask for Jesus (who is quoted all over the Bible) to have just once said that he is God rather than others saying he is God?  In contrast Jesus called himself son of man 88 times. 

The other 4 items you mentioned show significance/uniqueness of Jesus but uniqueness does not imply divinity.  They do support that he was a great prophet, hence the great respect Muslims give him.
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #214 on: October 05, 2012, 01:51:35 PM »

Of the 5 items you mentioned, only the one of "conceived by the Holy ghost" can be considered as evidence IF it was stated by Jesus himself, BUT it was not.  Is it too much to ask for Jesus (who is quoted all over the Bible) to have just once said that he is God rather than others saying he is God?  In contrast Jesus called himself son of man 88 times. 

The other 4 items you mentioned show significance/uniqueness of Jesus but uniqueness does not imply divinity.  They do support that he was a great prophet, hence the great respect Muslims give him.
lol, bro it's stated by Gabriel, the arch Angel of God, how much more credibility do you want, so now Angles lie?   Huh
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« Reply #215 on: October 05, 2012, 01:53:14 PM »

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Onetimehard
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« Reply #216 on: October 05, 2012, 02:03:31 PM »


Huh Huh Huh Angry Cheesy
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #217 on: October 05, 2012, 03:46:59 PM »

Wow Griffith laying the smack down, from a theological perspective of course, but pretty simple mathematics, 1+1 = 2 but for Islam it =3  Cheesy

Perfect answer for bigbobs, he will be seated at the right hand of the father and he was born from a virgin, those 2 points is obvious enough for anyone to believe that when they say son of God it's a literal term.

Actually islam 1=1

According to you 1=1+1+1

lol
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #218 on: October 05, 2012, 03:48:40 PM »

Actually islam 1=1

According to you 1=1+1+1

lol
Where have you been all day, we missed you  Cool

Did you see how Griffeth shut the door on bigbobs?  Grin
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« Reply #219 on: October 05, 2012, 04:00:55 PM »

You shut the door to the truth and open yourself and others to pantheism and polytheism.

I have a life too, we all do, I'm not on here 247

You're blind deaf and dumb, you follow a fraud named Paul. Who lied, deceived, cursed and boasted about it. Never ever did he ask for forgivness for the oppression of Jesus' followers. He in fact in his 'letters' boasted about that too.

The new testament is a mixture of unknown authors and his 'letters'. He speaks out of his own, not through revelation. He even admits and boasts about that, admitting he speaks out of his own will and not by the Lord's.

The disciples of Jesus never accepted, he condemned them.

So you think upon all that.

He was a liar and a fraud and you are following a fraud.

Jesus warned about this man and he foretold of the one that would complete and bring understanding to it all and that indeed is Muhammad (pbuh).

Paul just brought about confusion.

The pauline christianity overtook the jerusalem original jesus' christianity.

I have posted hundreds of verses which prove Jesus was not God, but you rather take the word of a fraud Paul.

You are trying to prove to YOURSELF that God is Jesus, while Jesus never said "I am GOD" or "Worship me Jesus".

Have a nice day.
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #220 on: October 05, 2012, 04:23:21 PM »

Your blind deaf and dumb and follow a fraud in Muhammad, biggest fraud ever and the Koran is a complete mockery of Jesus, you guy try and act like you respect him, very clever deception, the whole time I was reading the Koran it was a total disgrace to Jesus, mockery after mockery, very arrogant text and nothing humble about the Koran. Also during my read I couldn't help but notice all the jealousy against the Jews.

Have a nice day  Cool
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #221 on: October 05, 2012, 06:57:18 PM »

Oh you read the Qur'an? Mind posting those verses about Jesus that are 'mocking' Jesus?

Qur'an 5:116-120   Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.

"If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).

To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.
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« Reply #222 on: October 05, 2012, 07:37:32 PM »

Oh you read the Qur'an? Mind posting those verses about Jesus that are 'mocking' Jesus?

Qur'an 5:116-120   Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.

"If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).

To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.

Let me understand.  Within these verses you have Muhammad reciting a conversation between Allah and Jesus, but these verses came directly from Allah yet Allah speaks in the third person?  If the verses came from Allah wouldn't Allah say, "I will say....."?
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« Reply #223 on: October 05, 2012, 08:04:25 PM »

Muhammad (pbuh) was only conveying the message. God is the one talking to us and commanding Muhammad (pbuh).

God put the words into Muhmmad's mouth, it was not his own words. He does not speak of his own or of himself.
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« Reply #224 on: October 05, 2012, 08:27:54 PM »

Muhammad (pbuh) was only conveying the message. God is the one talking to us and commanding Muhammad (pbuh).

God put the words into Muhmmad's mouth, it was not his own words. He does not speak of his own or of himself.

So Allah speaks in the third person?
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