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Author Topic: Islam and womens rights  (Read 10633 times)
avxo
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« Reply #175 on: August 12, 2013, 05:55:08 PM »

I'm not wasting my time reading your crap axvo. You're just wasting your time blabbering.

You aren't because you can't. Because I systematically pick what you write apart, and proceed to demolish every point you make. Stick your head in the sand. Lie to yourself about why you're doing it if you must. But don't think that what you're doing isn't obvious to everyone here.

Pathetic...
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« Reply #176 on: August 12, 2013, 06:01:36 PM »

lol silly atheist, thinking he's smart and knowledgeable.

I could pick at your bs quotations but it's really a waste of my time. You already made erroneous statements as is and I'm not wasting my time bickering with an ignorant. I've done it already before and like I said even if something is explained to you, you're like a dumb wall that goes in circles. Kind of like how e-fool was, except on top of his level of stupidity and anger towards Islam and Muslims, he would take it a step further to actually call for the genocide of Muslims.
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« Reply #177 on: August 12, 2013, 06:07:29 PM »

I could pick at your bs quotations but it's really a waste of time.

Sure you could...

You already made erroneous statements as is and I'm not wasting my time.

Should be easy to point them out, yet you don't.


I've done it already before and like I said even if something is explained to you, you're like a dumb wall that goes in circles.

A wall that goes in circles? Huh?


Kind of like how e-fool was, except he would actually call for the genocide of Muslims.

I don't know about anyone else, but you won't find me calling for the initiation of violence on anyone. I'm against the initiation of violence, period.
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« Reply #178 on: August 13, 2013, 10:38:56 AM »

I don't know about anyone else, but you won't find me calling for the initiation of violence on anyone. I'm against the initiation of violence, period.

“It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own. He uses force to seize a value; I use it only to destroy destruction. A holdup man seeks to gain wealth by killing me; I do not grow richer by killing a holdup man. I seek no values by means of evil, nor do I surrender my values to evil."
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« Reply #179 on: August 13, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »

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« Reply #180 on: August 13, 2013, 02:24:35 PM »

“It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own. He uses force to seize a value; I use it only to destroy destruction. A holdup man seeks to gain wealth by killing me; I do not grow richer by killing a holdup man. I seek no values by means of evil, nor do I surrender my values to evil."

That's absolutely right.
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« Reply #181 on: August 13, 2013, 02:25:18 PM »



Yes... *Capitalism* is the problem... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #182 on: August 13, 2013, 05:51:07 PM »

You miss the whole point as always.
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« Reply #183 on: August 13, 2013, 05:57:34 PM »

You miss the whole point as always.

It says the real enemy is Capitalism, does it not? Forget, for the sake of argument, the fact that the U.K. isn't a capitalist society. What does an socio-economic system have to do with this?

I agree that valuing women solely on looks is stupid - judging any book by its cover is. But people do stupid things all the time, whether they live in the West or the East, the North or the South.
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« Reply #184 on: August 13, 2013, 05:59:21 PM »

The point of it is how in western capitalist nations (no need to play semantics on socialism in the UK western countries do work on the basis of capitalism), endorse and profit from nudity of women and the fashion industry, etc... while so called trying to talk about 'protecting women' when in fact capitalism exploits women and the west exploits women. That's all it's trying to say.
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« Reply #185 on: August 13, 2013, 06:33:02 PM »

The point of it is how in western capitalist nations (no need to play semantics on socialism in the UK western countries do work on the basis of capitalism), endorse and profit from nudity of women and the fashion industry, etc... while so called trying to talk about 'protecting women' when in fact capitalism exploits women and the west exploits women. That's all it's trying to say.

Do you believe that a woman should not be able to choose to work in the fashion industry as a model? Assuming that is her free choice (and we can debate whether, in this environment, that choice is free) how is she being exploited?

I understand you have moral objections in connection with nudity, but you cannot make a rational argument that your morals can bind other people.
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« Reply #186 on: August 13, 2013, 10:36:02 PM »

Your definition of freedom is anyone should do whatever they want under YOUR moral standard. In other words if I say something like should a murderer be allowed to kill it's his own free choice, you would start arguing about how this is wrong, impacts society, we have limits and punishments.

Well, under our moral standards we do not allow or condone such action. As much as you may disagree with that notion.

There is no such thing as unlimited freedom even in the west even though the west has become very loose.

Just as the laws and standards of western society are BINDING upon people, likewise we have standards that are binding upon Muslims and society at large for the protection of society rather than corruption of society.

As far as a woman who chooses to be a fashion model, porn star, cover magazine girl or movie star in nude scenes for all to see in theaters, how is she not exploited? Some women like to exploit men with their 'power' of nudity over them as well. It goes both ways. But the whole point is, muslim women or women who are of modest standards but 'foreign' to western standards are always seen as 'oppressed' while in fact we can argue the same for western women as in fact being oppresed.

"Cover girl" make up, hardly covering, more like covering with kilos of makeup to be noticed and accepted. While women that cover themselves want to be respected for their intellect not their lips, ass and breasts. So the point of that pic is the arguments that westerners throw out there at Muslim women, can far more easily be applied to western women.
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« Reply #187 on: August 14, 2013, 05:43:23 AM »

Your definition of freedom is anyone should do whatever they want under YOUR moral standard. In other words if I say something like should a murderer be allowed to kill it's his own free choice, you would start arguing about how this is wrong, impacts society, we have limits and punishments.

No it's not and you know it. But if you need to blatantly lie about my position to attack it, well. that says something about you and the tractability of your position.

Of course I would argue that murdering is wrong and we should regulate it. The initiation of violence is wrong and your freedom to act ends where my freedom begins. Which means your freedom to swing a knife doesn't mean you can swing it into my chest.


Well, under our moral standards we do not allow or condone such action. As much as you may disagree with that notion.

What I disagree with is the notion that your moral standards bind me and others. As long as my actions don't infringe on your rights (which is why, for example, your "murder" example above is not only ridiculous but a blatant lie) your morals mean shit.


There is no such thing as unlimited freedom even in the west even though the west has become very loose.

Of course not - your freedom doesn't mean you can punch me in the nose. It does, however, mean that I can't tell you not to oil yourself up and pose on stage in a tiny thing, or what you choose to do behind closed doors with other consenting adults, or what to believe, etc.


Just as the laws and standards of western society are BINDING upon people, likewise we have standards that are binding upon Muslims and society at large for the protection of society rather than corruption of society.

Agreed. If you choose to live in a particular society you are bound by its laws. However that doesn't make the laws in question moral and a society that infringes on the freedom of its citizens won't last long. You see, people don't like to be under a yoke.


As far as a woman who chooses to be a fashion model, porn star, cover magazine girl or movie star in nude scenes for all to see in theaters, how is she not exploited?

Words have meaning Ahmed. Case in point:

ex•ploi•ta•tion: (noun) Utilization of another person or group against their will for selfish purposes.

How is a woman who freely and without external pressure decides to act in such films being exploited? Please note, that this doesn't preclude the possibility that some woman is exploited but that is a different topic.


Some women like to exploit men with their 'power' of nudity over them as well.

I agree, except I go further; you see, exploiters can in all shapes and sizes and use all sorts of tricks to exploit others. Nudity is hardly the only tool. Which is why it doesn't make sense to condemn nudity (or, indeed, the tool) but the act if exploiting someone else.


But the whole point is, muslim women or women who are of modest standards but 'foreign' to western standards are always seen as 'oppressed' while in fact we can argue the same for western women as in fact being oppresed.

I don't argue that modest women are oppressed. I argue that taking choice away is oppressive.


"Cover girl" make up, hardly covering, more like covering with kilos of makeup to be noticed and accepted. While women that cover themselves want to be respected for their intellect not their lips, ass and breasts. So the point of that pic is the arguments that westerners throw out there at Muslim women, can far more easily be applied to western women.

If a woman is so shallow that she wants to be respected only for her breasts or her hips; then more power to her; it's her choice. She'll attract the sort of men she deserves. There's a reason why terms like "bimbo" and "slut" were coined.

But your suggestion that women should cover up to get respect is an insult to both men and women. There are people who don't think with their genitals Ahmed, and guys don't lose all control if a woman wears form-fitting clothes.

No doubt, there's clothing that is appropriate for the situation and clothing that isn't.

The point is that it's not up to you to tell the woman what she can and cannot wear.
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« Reply #188 on: August 14, 2013, 06:49:32 AM »

But your suggestion that women should cover up to get respect is an insult to both men and women. There are people who don't think with their genitals Ahmed, and guys don't lose all control if a woman wears form-fitting clothes.

No doubt, there's clothing that is appropriate for the situation and clothing that isn't.

The point is that it's not up to you to tell the woman what she can and cannot wear.

I agree with this.  

From what I’ve gathered via reading and conversation, Islam often portrays men as remaining in some form of a state of lust and desirous of sex and that Muslim women simply don't have similar desires (at least in terms of frequency of thoughts of lust).  Therefore, Muslim women need to cover up so that that Muslim men don’t turn into hulking, howling sex werewolves when a calf is shown.  

Seems to me that the men of Islam just need to practice a bit more self-control.   For example, I just spoke with an attractive woman in a tight fitting shirt and I somehow managed to keep my penis from becoming engorged with blood and bursting forth from behind my zipper.

It’s always struck me as odd that a divine reward for Muslim men entering Allah’s paradise is based upon an earthly pleasure…just assumed the infinite would transcend the finite a bit more.   Although a Muslim man’s participation in sex with multiple female partners in Allah’s paradise won’t be “smelly and icky” (as ahmed put it) like it is in the world today.  The orgy of flesh will become purified and righteous in paradise.  

I’m just not getting it.

Yes one of the many promises to men is that they will have beautiful wives. That their worldly wives will be made queens of heaven and that they may get new wives while those who had no wives will certainly be given wives as described. What is wrong with a woman that is attractive, beautiful, chaste, pure? The men who get new wives their wives of this world will be queens and above those women that they may get in heaven.

On the other hand no women are not promised 'many men' but if they did not have a husband they will be given a pious husband.

There is a difference between men and women. We are equal in faith and piety, but not equal. This is known by atheists and all believers alike.

Men are more likely enticed and desiring of women than woman are of men. How often do you hear of women boasting and trolling lets say even on an internet forum about men? And how often do you hear about guys ranting about and obsessing over different women? This forum is a fine example.

What awaits us in paradise will be equitable to what we deserve and what God has prepared for us. It is still nothing like this world.

For example yes there will be sex in heaven, but it will not be smelly, it will not be icky, it will be different.

Absolute equity is a failed concept. Not everyone or everything is equal this is a fact. Communism failed my friend as it is against human nature and how God created us.
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« Reply #189 on: August 14, 2013, 09:00:48 AM »

The next life is like this life but without the filth of this world or suffering of this world.

What is wrong with that? Like I said before, do you want to be some floating cloud playing tamburines and harp with wings like some christian drawings of baby angel illustrations?

You keep focusing on intimacy in heaven, wow and? Is that all you think of?

Being in the presence of God, being in the presence of the prophets and messengers of God, being in the presence of other pious people, this is also another of millions of other things of heaven.

Seems like many islamophobe christian missionaries who try to showcase muslims as sex hungry obsessed people. Have you read the bible? Please... we've been over this.

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« Reply #190 on: August 14, 2013, 10:43:55 AM »

The next life is like this life but without the filth of this world or suffering of this world.

What is wrong with that?

Beyond being a pipe dream? Plenty, but I only have one question: Why is a "next life" necessary? Why can't this life be without "filth" and "suffering"?

Remember, saying "because that's how it is!" isn't an answer.
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« Reply #191 on: September 06, 2013, 09:37:44 PM »

ahmed told me copying and pasting isn't appropriate support.  support must be derived from your own research.


Really?  90% of what Ahmed posts is copy/paste.   Of course he interjects his own false statements, from time to time.


Islam treats women like dirt.
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« Reply #192 on: September 21, 2013, 01:48:04 AM »

I agree with this.  

From what I’ve gathered via reading and conversation, Islam often portrays men as remaining in some form of a state of lust and desirous of sex and that Muslim women simply don't have similar desires (at least in terms of frequency of thoughts of lust).  Therefore, Muslim women need to cover up so that that Muslim men don’t turn into hulking, howling sex werewolves when a calf is shown.  

Seems to me that the men of Islam just need to practice a bit more self-control.   For example, I just spoke with an attractive woman in a tight fitting shirt and I somehow managed to keep my penis from becoming engorged with blood and bursting forth from behind my zipper.

It’s always struck me as odd that a divine reward for Muslim men entering Allah’s paradise is based upon an earthly pleasure…just assumed the infinite would transcend the finite a bit more.   Although a Muslim man’s participation in sex with multiple female partners in Allah’s paradise won’t be “smelly and icky” (as ahmed put it) like it is in the world today.  The orgy of flesh will become purified and righteous in paradise.  

I’m just not getting it.


Good post!

I agree 100%
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« Reply #193 on: September 21, 2013, 07:11:04 PM »


Really?  90% of what Ahmed posts is copy/paste.   Of course he interjects his own false statements, from time to time.


Islam treats women like dirt.

The flipside is when you provide your own research it's invalid because it's unsupported and not from a reputable theologian LOL. 

Provide commentary from a reputable theologian and then you're still wrong because it was from the wrong "reputable theologian" LOL. 

In short, it matters not what you research, what books you read, what lectures you attend, what courses you take, etc.....LOL, it's all just wrong.

What's the point?
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« Reply #194 on: October 07, 2013, 01:00:25 PM »

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« Reply #195 on: October 07, 2013, 01:01:04 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jvh3BNsSkM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jvh3BNsSkM</a>
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« Reply #196 on: October 07, 2013, 01:33:50 PM »



That's the justification that people like Ahmed provide, a justification the flows directly from the Qur'an.

But let's take a step back:

It's not offensive if a woman wishes to cover up on her own accord (even if her reasons are religious). It's her body and she can choose to expose or cover up as much of it as she wants.

What is offensive is that a religion asserts that women must be covered because their mere appearance is so intensely titillating and scandalous that it turns pious men to horny frat brothers.

I realize that this is a subtle point that is likely to get lost on people like Ahmed, but there it is nonetheless. As plain and obvious as a nose on a face.
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« Reply #197 on: October 07, 2013, 03:28:25 PM »

go take a tour of your non-muslim brethren's respect for women's rights in the opinions and gossip section. Yes women who chose to not cover themselves are being respected right there and then by non-muslims clearly.
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« Reply #198 on: October 07, 2013, 03:45:27 PM »

go take a tour of your non-muslim brethren's respect for women's rights in the opinions and gossip section. Yes women who chose to not cover themselves are being respected right there and then by non-muslims clearly.

Sure, guys will look at pictures of women who willingly put themselves in situations where they will be seen in an overtly sexual light and objectified. And? I don't want to tell women how they can or can't use their body, because I'm not qualified to and, more importantly, because I believe in freedom and the quintessence of freedom is to be able to use your own body in the way you see fit.

But even if all guys are horndogs who can't control themselves, why must women do anything about that? Why shouldn't men do something since they're the ones with the "problem"?

Never mind... it was a rhetorical question. Besides, we all know the answer anyways.
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