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Author Topic: To Christians: Since he doesn`t worship Jesus Romney is going to hell correct?  (Read 7409 times)
Agnostic007
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« Reply #150 on: October 24, 2012, 10:24:55 AM »

Agnostic007, what is your opinion on the implication of the following verses (concerning the claim of Jesus being divine).  These verses are strikingly similar to how Islam describes Jesus:

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

"I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)

"He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)

"But now I go away to Him who sent me." (John 16:5)

"Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.'" (John 7:16) <---Exactly what any prophet would say

"For I have not spoken on my authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

"I am ascending to my father and your father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) <---i.e. the general population's God is the same as Jesus' God.

Those are examples of some of the scriptures presented to refute the "Jesus is GOD" position. There are many more available. They underscore the problem with trying to to declare Jesus as GOD. The simple fact Jesus can't sit at the right hand side of himself at the throne is telling enough.   
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #151 on: October 24, 2012, 11:05:20 AM »

Those are examples of some of the scriptures presented to refute the "Jesus is GOD" position. There are many more available. They underscore the problem with trying to to declare Jesus as GOD. The simple fact Jesus can't sit at the right hand side of himself at the throne is telling enough.   

Please, I'd like to understand in more detail why Jesus can't do that.
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« Reply #152 on: October 24, 2012, 11:07:21 AM »

And those who knew him described him as a prophet too:

"This is Jesus, the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee" (Matthew 21:11)

"A great prophet has risen up among us..." (Luke 7:16)

"a prophet mighty in deed..." (Luke 24:19)

"Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet." (John 4:19) <--Note if Jesus were more than a prophet why woudlnt he respond and tell her that in the next verse?

If you would please, tell me what the Holy Spirit is.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2012, 12:21:32 PM »

Please, I'd like to understand in more detail why Jesus can't do that.

If Jesus meant he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself (as little sense as that makes), the sensible thing to do would have been to clarify and say "I'll be sitting at the right hand side of myself" and then there wouldn't be any debate over whether he meant something different than how it reads (that he is a separate entity from God).  But of course he had no reason to say he'll be sitting at the right hand side of himself because that's not what he meant.   Interpreting it as such is a stretching attempt to hold on to the belief that Jesus is God.
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« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2012, 12:30:53 PM »

If Jesus meant he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself (as little sense as that makes), the sensible thing to do would have been to clarify and say "I'll be sitting at the right hand side of myself" and then there wouldn't be any debate over whether he meant something different than how it reads (that he is a separate entity from God).  But of course he had no reason to say he'll be sitting at the right hand side of himself because that's not what he meant.   Interpreting it as such is a stretching attempt to hold on to the belief that Jesus is God.
If you would please, explain what he meant.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2012, 12:34:42 PM »

lol what is there to elaborate if he is supposedly God why would he be sitting on the right hand of God? Confused yet?
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« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2012, 12:40:52 PM »

lol what is there to elaborate if he is supposedly God why would he be sitting on the right hand of God? Confused yet?

No confusion on my part, I just wanted those asserting it's impossibility to explain that in a bit more detail.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2012, 12:42:05 PM »

If you would please, explain what he meant.

Jesus said he will sit on the right side of God; he did not say that he would be sitting at the right side of himself, meaning he's not God.

What do you think he meant?  That he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself?
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« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2012, 12:43:06 PM »

No confusion on my part, I just wanted those asserting it's impossibility to explain that in a bit more detail.

So your defense is that it's "not impossible"? - that's a pretty weak stance compared to being able to show that it's "likely" or "definite"
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« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2012, 12:44:46 PM »

Jesus said he will sit on the right side of God; he did not say that he would be sitting at the right side of himself, meaning he's not God.

What do you think he meant?  That he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself?

Thx, just curious what explanation would be given.
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« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2012, 12:45:45 PM »

So your defense is that it's "not impossible"? - that's a pretty weak stance compared to being able to show that it's "likely" or "definite"

Didn't make a defense, asked for more explanation.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2012, 12:54:06 PM »

Didn't make a defense, asked for more explanation.

Okay, so what's your interpretation of the verse where he states he'll be at the right hand side of God?
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #162 on: October 24, 2012, 01:05:44 PM »

This is just ludicrous.. its quite obvious... again like i said bfeore.. its as if you are trying to prove that God is bipolar its ridiculous... you are going to such far extents away from scripture and what it says and your own conjecture.

He said that he would be at the right hand of God.

I would be at the right hand of myself? This is just ridiculous.
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« Reply #163 on: October 24, 2012, 01:34:20 PM »

Okay, so what's your interpretation of the verse where he states he'll be at the right hand side of God?

Just another reference to the triune nature of God.....father, son and spirit.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #164 on: October 24, 2012, 01:40:10 PM »

Just another reference to the triune nature of God.....father, son and spirit.

You can't seriously argue that if you had read that verse on your own without ever having heard of the Trinity that you would come to the same conclusion that it's a reference to the triune nature of God.
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« Reply #165 on: October 24, 2012, 02:08:39 PM »

You can't seriously argue that if you had read that verse on your own without ever having heard of the Trinity that you would come to the same conclusion that it's a reference to the triune nature of God.

Really couldn't say whether I would have or not with that verse and no knowledge of the Trinity....the situation didn't play out that way for me.  Fortunately, I had many others verses supporting the Trinity; still, what sealed the deal for me was my expression of faith in the risen God Jesus Christ followed by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit made manifest in my daily life that clarified who God the father, son and spirit are.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #166 on: October 24, 2012, 02:30:18 PM »

Really couldn't say whether I would have or not with that verse and no knowledge of the Trinity....the situation didn't play out that way for me.  Fortunately, I had many others verses supporting the Trinity; still, what sealed the deal for me was my expression of faith in the risen God Jesus Christ followed by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit made manifest in my daily life that clarified who God the father, son and spirit are.

Interesting that Unitarians do not get that same indwelling and understanding of the Trinity, as don't the numerous Christians who were brutally killed by the church for refusing the then-new Trinity doctrine, ex. the Carpocrates, Paulicians and Basilideans.
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« Reply #167 on: October 24, 2012, 02:41:34 PM »

Interesting that Unitarians do not get that same indwelling and understanding of the Trinity, as don't the numerous Christians who were brutally killed by the church for refusing the then-new Trinity doctrine, ex. the Carpocrates, Paulicians and Basilideans.

Would you help me understand how a unitarian or any group that denies the Holy Spirit could be indwelt by it? 
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« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2012, 02:43:22 PM »

Really couldn't say whether I would have or not with that verse and no knowledge of the Trinity....the situation didn't play out that way for me.  Fortunately, I had many others verses supporting the Trinity; still, what sealed the deal for me was my expression of faith in the risen God Jesus Christ followed by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit made manifest in my daily life that clarified who God the father, son and spirit are.

That makes so much emotional sense, but has nothing to do with scripture. So basically you are following your whims and desires. I understand this much. And to suit your whims and desires you are making up meanings to verses even though they clearly are nothing what you are portraying them as.

You are also ignoring the countless hundreds of verses which afirm Jesus as merely a man, a prophet, not knowing, not capable to do without God's permission, etc...
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« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2012, 02:47:41 PM »

That makes so much emotional sense, but has nothing to do with scripture. So basically you are following your whims and desires. I understand this much.

AHAHAHAAHHAHAHA!!!!
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #170 on: October 24, 2012, 02:48:08 PM »

You shouldn't be the one laughing. I feel sorry for you.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #171 on: October 24, 2012, 02:50:44 PM »

Would you help me understand how a unitarian or any group that denies the Holy Spirit could be indwelt by it? 

I don't believe even a Trinitarian is "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit, so the question isn't really relevent.  But entertaining indwelling, Unitarians would have considered the Trinitiy interpretation prior to declaring themselves Unitarian, so my point still stands that not every Christian who tries to understand the Bible will will feel this indwelling that you describe.
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« Reply #172 on: October 24, 2012, 02:53:12 PM »

You shouldn't be the one laughing. I feel sorry for you.

It is comical now ahmed....completely and totally comical. 

I will say that I have learned a ton about Islam, Muslims and how they interact with others. Between you and bigbobs....it's been an eye opening experience to say the very least.....a crash course in Islam.  It makes me want to read the Quaran and learn more about what I've simply heard through others.  All I can say is that I fully understand now what others have told me and that I've read about.
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« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2012, 02:55:53 PM »

I don't believe even a Trinitarian is "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit, so the question isn't really relevent.  

I stopped after your first statement.  We have a complete and total, fundamental disconnect.  Muslim says white, Christian says black.  Christian says left, Muslim says right.  Muslim says stop, Christian says go.....and on and on and on ad nauseum.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2012, 02:57:27 PM »

It stopped after your first statement.  Exactly, it's a complete and total, fundamental disconnect.

Translation - you don't have anything (except perhaps emotional) to deny the following:

Entertaining indwelling, Unitarians would have considered the Trinitiy interpretation prior to declaring themselves Unitarian, so my point still stands that not every Christian who tries to understand the Bible will will feel this indwelling that you describe.
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