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Author Topic: To Christians: Since he doesn`t worship Jesus Romney is going to hell correct?  (Read 7175 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #175 on: October 24, 2012, 03:02:23 PM »

I stopped after your first statement.  We have a complete and total, fundamental disconnect.  Muslim says white, Christian says black.  Christian says left, Muslim says right.  Muslim says stop, Christian says go.....and on and on and on ad nauseum.

No you just say worship a man we say worship God.

You know not all christians can agree on:

Jesus is a man?

Jesus is son of God?

Jesus is God?

Jesus is a man and son of God?

Jesus is a man and son of God and God?

Jesus is son of God AND God?

How do I know? Because I was a Christian and priests and pastors themselves would always giving contradicting and conflicting non-sense explanations. You are just demonstrating this.

Hence I spent my time reading the scriptures, studying history to come to the conclusion God is not a man, and even some rationalizing, philosophizing.

The best answer most priests/pastors/teachers/etc... gave me  was 'have faith', well no I don't accept blind faith. I have faith in God but it is ascertained through reason not blindness.


The only way you can potentially accept what you are preaching is if you have a bipolar tendancy and can relate. If you shut off all rational thought and blindly accept it even if it goes contrary to everything common sense.

You literally have to accept that 1 and 1 and 1 CAN equal 3 and be 1 or something ludicrous however way you split it, explaining God (through your own emotional explanation not something you got from revelation through God), that God is an egg, or God is like a 'family' or that God is like h2o, or that God is like a video game (like onetimehard gave) and all this other made up stuff.


What you are basically doing is playing with verses, ignoring verses that don't suit you, making up made up meanings to verses that you can manipulate.

Like how does one rationally mentally sane person accept that Jesus saying he will be sitting at the right hand of God... is totally cool... and that Jesus is God himself.

So will you sit next to yourself, by yourself, to yourself? What?

You response? "I have this indwelling in me, the powaaaa" *goes super saiyan* come on now...



I have tren dwelling in me, it is quite powerful.
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« Reply #176 on: October 24, 2012, 03:08:05 PM »

Translation - you don't have anything (except perhaps emotional) to deny the following:

Entertaining indwelling, Unitarians would have considered the Trinitiy interpretation prior to declaring themselves Unitarian, so my point still stands that not every Christian who tries to understand the Bible will will feel this indwelling that you describe.

I'm sharing my faith, my experiences, my testimony and representing Christ and I have enough humility to avoid the insults. 

I pray for everyone on this board now because I genuinely care and don't want to see two intelligent, strong men like yourselves lost to the deceiver of this world.  I understand how strong your convictions are, but what I don't feel coming from you and ahmed is the sense of peace and love that Islam is supposed to represent. 
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« Reply #177 on: October 24, 2012, 03:19:23 PM »

Your buddy onetimehard said God can become Satan. Can become a picture. Can become a tree that I can chop up and set ablaze.

Who is truly following a deceiver?

All we say is worship God alone, the creator of us all, do not worship His creation and false deities. Worship only the God of all the prophets and messengers. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Abraham, Jacob, Job, Adam, Noah, Ishamel, Isaac, etc...
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« Reply #178 on: October 24, 2012, 03:25:39 PM »

I'm sharing my faith, my experiences, my testimony and representing Christ and I have enough humility to avoid the insults. 

I pray for everyone on this board now because I genuinely care and don't want to see two intelligent, strong men like yourselves lost to the deceiver of this world.  I understand how strong your convictions are, but what I don't feel coming from you and ahmed is the sense of peace and love that Islam is supposed to represent. 

And I appreciate you sharing them, as I am also learning a lot from this.  I've never meant to come across as insuling either.

One thing I am still trying to learn, as you haven't answered it, is what is your take on Christians who honestly try to understand the Bible and find that it does not make a strong case for the Trinity, Jesus being God, original sin, etc.  You do recognize that there are honest Christians who have different interpretations on the most fundamental beliefs.

One distinction in Islam is that the differences in interpretation of the Qur'an are usually concerning minor rules (for ex. is it okay to eat meat from McDonalds or does it have to be from a halal meat shop?) but never any differences in the fundamentals of there being one God, prophets being humans, every man accountable for their own actions, etc.  

Therefore, when we discuss Islam, we discuss Islam.  When you discuss Christianity, you are discussing your interpretation of Christianity.
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« Reply #179 on: October 24, 2012, 03:28:30 PM »

Your buddy onetimehard said God can become Satan. Can become a picture. Can become a tree that I can chop up and set ablaze.

Who is truly following a deceiver?

All we say is worship God alone, the creator of us all, do not worship His creation and false deities. Worship only the God of all the prophets and messengers. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Abraham, Jacob, Job, Adam, Noah, Ishamel, Isaac, etc...

Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation:  "Can your God do this or that?"  He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!"  "SEE!  SEE!!  YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"

I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!
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« Reply #180 on: October 24, 2012, 03:30:42 PM »

Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation:  "Can your God do this or that?"  He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!"  "SEE!  SEE!!  YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"

I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!

AHAHAAHAH!!!  Found it!

So now you're worshipping satan?

So basically you are forming God into what you want. You are not following what God declared about himself which is quite simply: God is eternal, has no beginning no end, has nothing like him, He is the creator, not the creation.

You are a worshipper of creation even though most dogmatic Christians would reject pretty much all of you've uttered in this thread and other threads as blasphemy and as pantheism.
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« Reply #181 on: October 24, 2012, 03:32:38 PM »

And I appreciate you sharing them, as I am also learning a lot from this.  I've never meant to come across as insuling either.

One thing I am still trying to learn, as you haven't answered it, is what is your take on Christians who honestly try to understand the Bible and find that it does not make a strong case for the Trinity, Jesus being God, original sin, etc.  You do recognize that there are honest Christians who have different interpretations on the most fundamental beliefs.

One distinction in Islam is that the differences in interpretation of the Qur'an are usually concerning minor rules (for ex. is it okay to eat meat from McDonalds or does it have to be from a halal meat shop?) but never any differences in the fundamentals of there being one God, prophets being humans, every man accountable for their own actions, etc. 

Therefore, when we discuss Islam, we discuss Islam.  When you discuss Christianity, you are discussing your interpretation of Christianity.

Now this is a quality post.....this is something I can respond to honestly.   I will do so later on as I have to leave to pick up my daughter.   I appreciate your comments!
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« Reply #182 on: October 24, 2012, 03:40:06 PM »

Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation:  "Can your God do this or that?"  He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!"  "SEE!  SEE!!  YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"

I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!

No I am just demonstrating that you are both misguided by making up beliefs and claims about God based on your own whims and desires, emotions. Not scriptural evidence or revelations.

Why he can 'fall trap' as you call it to what I asked ihm. How is that a trap? It's an honest question based on your responses. And he admits to such non-sense basically God can even be satan.

You see how far you end up away from the truth when you base your beliefs on personal made up claims without any evidence. You start lying against God. Onetimehard turned "Christianity" into pantheism.

Little did either of us quote from the qur'an for you, only from the bible for the most part. Islam is distinct on the subject. God is one period and it does not error in this matter.

The bible is relatively clear on this as well but you use elusive statements that people can misinterpret or manipulate.

Someone ignorant of semetic languages and statements/expression/style in them can be misled easily.

In the original texts God is mentioned as Ellohim. To a trinitarian who jus hears of this they will go WOW proof for trinity. While the reality is, Elloh is God, and im is plural which is gods, but in hebrew it is the royal plural, the plural of respect.

In French (which I speak btw), there is also a royal plural/respect plural. In English not so much. You say you for you and you for you.
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« Reply #183 on: October 24, 2012, 05:34:34 PM »

This thread has turned into complete drivel.

Bunch or religious idiots embarrassing themselves at this point.

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« Reply #184 on: October 24, 2012, 06:09:12 PM »

No you just say worship a man we say worship God.

You know not all christians can agree on:

Jesus is a man?

Jesus is son of God?

Jesus is God?

Jesus is a man and son of God?

Jesus is a man and son of God and God?

Jesus is son of God AND God?

How do I know? Because I was a Christian and priests and pastors themselves would always giving contradicting and conflicting non-sense explanations. You are just demonstrating this.

Hence I spent my time reading the scriptures, studying history to come to the conclusion God is not a man, and even some rationalizing, philosophizing.

The best answer most priests/pastors/teachers/etc... gave me  was 'have faith', well no I don't accept blind faith. I have faith in God but it is ascertained through reason not blindness.


The only way you can potentially accept what you are preaching is if you have a bipolar tendancy and can relate. If you shut off all rational thought and blindly accept it even if it goes contrary to everything common sense.

You literally have to accept that 1 and 1 and 1 CAN equal 3 and be 1 or something ludicrous however way you split it, explaining God (through your own emotional explanation not something you got from revelation through God), that God is an egg, or God is like a 'family' or that God is like h2o, or that God is like a video game (like onetimehard gave) and all this other made up stuff.


What you are basically doing is playing with verses, ignoring verses that don't suit you, making up made up meanings to verses that you can manipulate.

Like how does one rationally mentally sane person accept that Jesus saying he will be sitting at the right hand of God... is totally cool... and that Jesus is God himself.

So will you sit next to yourself, by yourself, to yourself? What?

You response? "I have this indwelling in me, the powaaaa" *goes super saiyan* come on now...



I have tren dwelling in me, it is quite powerful.
with all do respect based on this tren comment, I can honestly say  Grin ..... FINALLY YOU GOT THAT STICK OUT OF YOUR ASS  Cheesy ... See was that so hard Ahmed to get along with everyone, joke around in a good debate? oh BTW there is no way your tren is as strong as Vageta and Goku combined  Huh lol, hehe  Grin

Anyways where were we? oh ya God sitting beside himself right? OK for the 15th time, God, the all powerful, the omnipotent, the most high is not restricted by space, time and matter, his habitat is outside of this realm, now if he chooses, and he did, to come into our dimention he would be restricted by time, space and matter but the God as we now him would still remain outside space time and matter while the Person he chose to be, Jesus would be inside space time and matter. They would not be 2 different entities at the same time cause time would not exist to one entity, this is something the human brain can not comprehend, trust me God is laughing at you for thinking you have him figured out, such arrogance on your behalf
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« Reply #185 on: October 24, 2012, 06:10:59 PM »

Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation:  "Can your God do this or that?"  He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!"  "SEE!  SEE!!  YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"

I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!
LMAO that is exactly what he did, the man tried to say I worship Satan, lol,  Grin  that is halirious how predictable Ahmed is
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« Reply #186 on: October 24, 2012, 06:31:54 PM »













So you think you become a video game when you play it. That's pretty funny, never heard a Christian give this explanation for the trinity.

It kind of reminds me of the example of a DVD player. Does the engineer have to become a DVD player in order to understand the DVD player. No, but the engineer will provide a manual (eg: revelations to Moses, Quran, etc...) and a technician/sales person (prophet moses (pbuh), Muhammad (pbuh))

So likewise when we play video games we don't 'enter the video game' and 'become the video game' that we designed.

Oh boy... I feel like I am discussing theological questions with 12 year olds :-/
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« Reply #187 on: October 24, 2012, 06:40:37 PM »

OK fine I admit it was a silly comparison, but my point was simple God is in a different domain the what we know as the laws of physics.

BTW VAGETA IS MY FAVORITE, THE PRIDE ON HIM IS ASTRONOMICAL, WOW
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« Reply #188 on: October 25, 2012, 07:28:59 AM »

Thanks, sorry I may have sounded condescending in my earlier reply to you.  I've gone back and fourth with MOS and onetimehard a few times on this topic and we've established that we don't mean any offence to each other, but sometimes out of habit I use the same tone with others such as yourself who have similar posts.

No worries!  I didn't take it as an insult.

OK I've had time to catch up on most of the thread.

You must have missed the few scriptural examples I mentioned earlier in this thread that show that Lord does not mean God.

Like MOS said Lord can have different meanings...like "master," "despot," "head of a family (like Abraham in your example)", and also God.

I'm looking at 2 NT Greek Word Study Dictionarys by Spiros Zodhiates:

I don't have the keyboard for the Greek letters but the word Lord the can be despotes/despotou and also Kurios which is also the word used for God.

In the scripture I posted the word is Kurios.

Kurios:  supreme in authority, God, Lord

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« Reply #189 on: October 25, 2012, 07:38:18 AM »


One and only son?  That's contradictory to other biblical verses which state that David, Solomon, even all of pious humans, are all "sons of God." 


For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel Cheesy etc.

The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.



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« Reply #190 on: October 25, 2012, 07:51:17 AM »

For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel Cheesy etc.

The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.





I would have always thought Adam was the first son... But hey... I guess God was young when Adam was born and couldn't take care of him... He must have put him up for adoption or something.
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« Reply #191 on: October 25, 2012, 09:37:35 AM »

For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel Cheesy etc.

The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.





No that's you just deliberately ignoring verses and wanting to believe what you want. According to the bible in the OT there are mentions of a begotten son, only son, first born, etc...

All of this is metaphorical, literary exageration and figurative speech. Because of Paul's teaching it has turned into the literal.

Begetting is an animal act between a male and a female. Gender is a creation of God. We are limited by it. We cannot just go poof and create life, we can only have sex or engineer in a lab to what limited extent we can do genetic engineering (not even close).

In one version of the bible it describes marry being 'overtaken by God' or if i recall how does it go covered up by God aka as if God went over her and you know what. This is just blasphemy and even amongst the different bibles it varries.
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« Reply #192 on: October 25, 2012, 09:46:47 AM »

For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel Cheesy etc.

The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.


No worries!  I didn't take it as an insult.

OK I've had time to catch up on most of the thread.

Like MOS said Lord can have different meanings...like "master," "despot," "head of a family (like Abraham in your example)", and also God.

I'm looking at 2 NT Greek Word Study Dictionarys by Spiros Zodhiates:

I don't have the keyboard for the Greek letters but the word Lord the can be despotes/despotou and also Kurios which is also the word used for God.

In the scripture I posted the word is Kurios.

Kurios:  supreme in authority, God, Lord



I agree Lord can have different meanings, and similarly "son of God" is very often used metaphorically (IMO its always metaphorical Smiley).  What I'm trying to point out is that we have a) Lord with different meanings, and b) "son of God" term, one has to selectively choose the literal God translation for Lord and the literal "son of God" translation for Jesus and not David, Solomon, MOS, etc. Smiley  One also has to choose the "God" translation of Lord for Jesus and another translation for when Sarah calls Abraham Lord in  Peter 3:6 ands other examples in the Bible.

An example of why I don't believe Lord is meant as "God" when referring to Jesus is the verse 1 Cornithians 8:6 "Yet for us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ."  (i.e. only one God AND one Lord, not "Yet for us there is only one God, the Father who is also Jesus and combined they are one")

When one combines the above observations with many other parts of the Bible which a) call Jesus a prophet, b) indicate he is a separate being than the Father, c) contradictions in the gospels which while appear trivial still show that not ever verse can be taken as being literally correct, etc. it doesn't create a strong case that Jesus is God over the belief that he was a messenger and prophet of God.

That's what gives rise to Unitarian Christianity.  To argue support of the Trinity one has to select certain translations, chose certain specific beliefs of when a phrase is metaphorical or literal, and deny many other conflicting verses, and this is simply because the Trinity is non-scriptural.  Had the Trinity been scriptural there woudl be no debate.
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« Reply #193 on: October 25, 2012, 10:34:14 AM »

No I am just demonstrating that you are both misguided by making up beliefs and claims about God based on your own whims and desires, emotions. Not scriptural evidence or revelations.

Why he can 'fall trap' as you call it to what I asked ihm. How is that a trap? It's an honest question based on your responses. And he admits to such non-sense basically God can even be satan.

You see how far you end up away from the truth when you base your beliefs on personal made up claims without any evidence. You start lying against God. Onetimehard turned "Christianity" into pantheism.

Little did either of us quote from the qur'an for you, only from the bible for the most part. Islam is distinct on the subject. God is one period and it does not error in this matter.

The bible is relatively clear on this as well but you use elusive statements that people can misinterpret or manipulate.

Someone ignorant of semetic languages and statements/expression/style in them can be misled easily.

In the original texts God is mentioned as Ellohim. To a trinitarian who jus hears of this they will go WOW proof for trinity. While the reality is, Elloh is God, and im is plural which is gods, but in hebrew it is the royal plural, the plural of respect.

In French (which I speak btw), there is also a royal plural/respect plural. In English not so much. You say you for you and you for you.

ahmed are you a Frenchman or are French and English second and third languages for you?  Either way, you have great command over the English language.
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« Reply #194 on: October 25, 2012, 11:27:28 AM »

And I appreciate you sharing them, as I am also learning a lot from this.  I've never meant to come across as insuling either.

One thing I am still trying to learn, as you haven't answered it, is what is your take on Christians who honestly try to understand the Bible and find that it does not make a strong case for the Trinity, Jesus being God, original sin, etc.  You do recognize that there are honest Christians who have different interpretations on the most fundamental beliefs.

One distinction in Islam is that the differences in interpretation of the Qur'an are usually concerning minor rules (for ex. is it okay to eat meat from McDonalds or does it have to be from a halal meat shop?) but never any differences in the fundamentals of there being one God, prophets being humans, every man accountable for their own actions, etc. 

Therefore, when we discuss Islam, we discuss Islam.  When you discuss Christianity, you are discussing your interpretation of Christianity.

Sorry I couldn't respond last night.....had to take the family shopping and it ate up the evening.  

Ok, well, I do agree completely with what you mentioned specifically in regards to how Christians understand the Trinity differently.  Those sects of Christianity that deny the Trinity don't make up a large majority of whole, but they are a definite portion.  In all honesty the numbers don't mean a great deal to me though.  

As we've clearly seen, people pick and choose scripture they like and ignore what is difficult to explain.  Me personally, I can't explain every nuance of scripture, but that doesn't take away from the core of the message for me.  Therein lies the rub, "who's interpretation of the core message is correct"?  Within scripture, some referred to Jesus as a prophet, some called him teacher, some called him rabbi, some called him Lord, some called him Messiah, etc....and Jesus was every bit of all of those titles and more.  Ok, so how do we make the distinction?  How do we say that Jesus is more than a prophet or less than the Lord?  As we've said, within the whole of Christianity we have differing opinions on the Trinity.....honest opinions that aren't attempting to misrepresent Christ either.  Now respectfully, we know where Islam stands on the issue so we can simply set that aside for this discussion.

When I read scripture such as the following it leaves little doubt for me:

Matthew 28:16-19
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”  

I've posted several other verses regarding Jesus' divinity, but the honest proof (for me) lies in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and how tangible and manifest that relationship is in my life.  That said, if a sect of Christianity denies the Holy Spirit then they're left without a trace of experiential proof and for me that proof is everything.  That experiential proof is always so callously discarded because nonbelievers can't experience, test or replicate it so they laugh it off, but ironically it is the crux of the matter.  When I fully surrendered to the Lord I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in such undeniable ways that I have no doubt concerning Christ's resurrection or the Trinity.  It's considered ultra-cheese, but a person must become the proof to experience the proof.....there's the brickwall...."So I have to believe with no proof to get the proof?  That's stupid."  There's a ton of proof, but everyone wants peer-reviewed, validated, tested, replicable proof...they want stuff they can touch and feel and see.  As a believer I have all of that......except I haven't seen God....may have seen an angel once, but that's another story LOL.  Again, it's all about that part of the Trinity that arrived at Pentecost known as the Jesus Christ's helper the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #195 on: October 25, 2012, 12:31:02 PM »

Please, I'd like to understand in more detail why Jesus can't do that.

Why Jesus can't sit at the right hand of himself?
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« Reply #196 on: October 25, 2012, 12:32:56 PM »

Quote
but the honest proof (for me) lies in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and how tangible and manifest that relationship is in my life.

So in other words as I've already stated you have elusive verses that are manipulated to represent what you want to see. And you continue to ignore verses which demonstrate Jesus as merely a human being that could not do anything without God and was only doing God's decrees.

Your ultimate proof is whats 'indwelling in you' thats not proof at all. It's as good as onetimehard talking about video games -_-
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« Reply #197 on: October 25, 2012, 01:54:30 PM »

So in other words as I've already stated you have elusive verses that are manipulated to represent what you want to see. And you continue to ignore verses which demonstrate Jesus as merely a human being that could not do anything without God and was only doing God's decrees.

Your ultimate proof is whats 'indwelling in you' thats not proof at all. It's as good as onetimehard talking about video games -_-

I've never manipulated any verses, what I presented above is straightforward.  I also don't ignore verses that represent Jesus' humanity either.  God came as a man in Jesus Christ to fulfill what Israel was unable to do, establish a new convenant, and to act as an example so that others may understand how best to live as follower of God and how to fellowship with other men and women.  I've covered this before....a few times actually.

Yes, the ultimate, most convincing proof for me is my relationship with the Holy Spirit and yes I understand that's meaningless to you.....you told me several times.
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« Reply #198 on: October 25, 2012, 02:22:34 PM »

Sure you manipulate verses all the time, like the verse about Jesus being at the right hand of God.

It boggles the mind how one can accept that and then say Jesus and God are the same.

Or the various verses were Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Not knowing. Not able. Etc...

I know all too well about this, even back in school and in church where it would be explained that it was because God wanted to 'be like us' yet there is no verse where it says God wanted to be like us so he did human things.

It's just a constant back and forth really. You are not proving anything but giving an emotional "its in me dwelling in me" and manipulating verses or picking and chosing verses you want and representing them in a manipulative way.

Jesus and God are not the same. If Jesus doesn't know somethng he is not God.
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bigbobs
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Islam, Nasser and Corvettes.


« Reply #199 on: October 25, 2012, 03:26:52 PM »

Sorry I couldn't respond last night.....had to take the family shopping and it ate up the evening.  

Ok, well, I do agree completely with what you mentioned specifically in regards to how Christians understand the Trinity differently.  Those sects of Christianity that deny the Trinity don't make up a large majority of whole, but they are a definite portion.  In all honesty the numbers don't mean a great deal to me though.  

As we've clearly seen, people pick and choose scripture they like and ignore what is difficult to explain.  Me personally, I can't explain every nuance of scripture, but that doesn't take away from the core of the message for me.  Therein lies the rub, "who's interpretation of the core message is correct"?  Within scripture, some referred to Jesus as a prophet, some called him teacher, some called him rabbi, some called him Lord, some called him Messiah, etc....and Jesus was every bit of all of those titles and more.  Ok, so how do we make the distinction?  How do we say that Jesus is more than a prophet or less than the Lord?  As we've said, within the whole of Christianity we have differing opinions on the Trinity.....honest opinions that aren't attempting to misrepresent Christ either.  Now respectfully, we know where Islam stands on the issue so we can simply set that aside for this discussion.

When I read scripture such as the following it leaves little doubt for me:

Matthew 28:16-19
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”  

I've posted several other verses regarding Jesus' divinity, but the honest proof (for me) lies in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and how tangible and manifest that relationship is in my life.  That said, if a sect of Christianity denies the Holy Spirit then they're left without a trace of experiential proof and for me that proof is everything.  That experiential proof is always so callously discarded because nonbelievers can't experience, test or replicate it so they laugh it off, but ironically it is the crux of the matter.  When I fully surrendered to the Lord I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in such undeniable ways that I have no doubt concerning Christ's resurrection or the Trinity.  It's considered ultra-cheese, but a person must become the proof to experience the proof.....there's the brickwall...."So I have to believe with no proof to get the proof?  That's stupid."  There's a ton of proof, but everyone wants peer-reviewed, validated, tested, replicable proof...they want stuff they can touch and feel and see.  As a believer I have all of that......except I haven't seen God....may have seen an angel once, but that's another story LOL.  Again, it's all about that part of the Trinity that arrived at Pentecost known as the Jesus Christ's helper the Holy Spirit.

No problem, hope you didn't have to spend too much shopping Smiley

I'll comment on the two verses below, first wanted to share my overall thought after reading your response is that there is a lot of Christian theology up for interpretation, with very fundamental differences in possible interpretations.  I personally believe that God would not allow his final message to be obscure and up for interpretation and debate, which is one reason I believe in Islam as there are no grey areas or uncertainty over fundamentals of whether God lived as a human (I find it even awkward typing that), whether God is triune or truly One, etc.  So one can choose between a) a religion with no unanimous interpretation, and hope that your interpretation is correct, or b) a religion that leaves no fundamentals to interpretation.

Also regarding the # of Christian follows who are Unitarian, yes they are a relative minority, but this is largely because historic Unitarians were brutally murdered/eliminated by the church for objecting to the Trinity in the first several hundred years.  Nowdays of course no one is killed for interpretation, but the reason Unitarians today are a minority is because Christianity had already grown while forcefully eliminating Unitarians more so than due to objective followers considering trinitiarian vs unitarian interpretations.
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