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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 8980 times)
bigbobs
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« on: October 29, 2012, 04:15:55 PM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 04:17:12 PM »

Oh and since I didn't copy these references from an article there may be a typo or two, if there is let me know and I'll look it up and post the correct chapter/verse reference.
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 10:54:55 PM »

your thinking good. now just put down the fucking bullshit "bible", the bullshit "koran", and any other bullshit scripture and start thinking about these concepts on your own. then you can pick up those books again, but from a perspective that does not take them to be divine but simply something to take ideas from and youll be much better suited to learn from them.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 08:55:45 AM »

your thinking good. now just put down the fucking bullshit "bible", the bullshit "koran", and any other bullshit scripture and start thinking about these concepts on your own. then you can pick up those books again, but from a perspective that does not take them to be divine but simply something to take ideas from and youll be much better suited to learn from them.

Normally I would take a phrase like that as a compliment, but in this case I think it's more of an insult that someone who doesn't even know something taught in grade 2 is trying relate to me  Smiley

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bigbobs
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 01:38:10 PM »

Christians friends are unusually silent on this thread?
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 01:51:32 PM »

I believe Christ is not GOD. But I do believe he was a perfect man who lived a perfect life which made him the perfect sacrifice so that all sins may be forgiven.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2012, 02:00:14 PM »

I believe Christ is not GOD. But I do believe he was a perfect man who lived a perfect life which made him the perfect sacrifice so that all sins may be forgiven.

I (and all Muslims) agree with your post except for the bolded text.

Logically does it make sense to you that a perfect man (or any man) needs to be "sacrified" for others' sins?  Huh

1)  For starters, is that even just?  If someone is sentenced to 25 years in jail for their crimes, can another innocent sacrifice themselves by doing the jail time instead?  No.

2)  Why does Jesus HAVE to be sacrified in order for God to forgive our sins?  God can do whatever he wants, and he is by nature very forgiving.  There is no rule of the universe that God has to answer to , which would make him not be able to forgive our sins unless Jesus died for them.

These threads that I make are not to attack Christianity but to urge Christians like yourself to step back and think logically what makes sense to you, and question whether that's consistent with what your elders or church taught you.
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2012, 02:59:55 PM »

In islam we ask for God's forgivness. God is most merciful and forgives anyone who repents and is sincere.

No need for human blood to be sacrificed.
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 11:10:44 PM »

In islam we ask for God's forgivness. God is most merciful and forgives anyone who repents and is sincere.

No need for human blood to be sacrificed.

Tell that to all the suicide bombers who gave their life for allah.
Its also a fact that muslims are allowed to lie to defend their faith. That describes you to a T achmutt.
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 11:27:34 AM »

I'm baffled that none of the regular Christian posters are addressing any of the above.  Sure we've discussed some of the points in other threads, but there are many new questions that we haven't discussed before on here such as scriptural evidence of Jesus being a prophet, a verse which appears to support slavery, scriptured evidence that your fate in the afterlife is dependent on actions, etc.
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 12:13:14 PM »

Tell that to all the suicide bombers who gave their life for allah.
Its also a fact that muslims are allowed to lie to defend their faith. That describes you to a T achmutt.


Oh brother, someone's been mentally deprived.

If we had to lie about our faith it would completely contradict the fact that islam is a message for all mankind and that we are obligated to speak of what islam is.

The only ones thus far lying have been zealot islamophobes.
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 12:46:33 PM »

I (and all Muslims) agree with your post except for the bolded text.

Logically does it make sense to you that a perfect man (or any man) needs to be "sacrified" for others' sins?  Huh

1)  For starters, is that even just?  If someone is sentenced to 25 years in jail for their crimes, can another innocent sacrifice themselves by doing the jail time instead?  No.

2)  Why does Jesus HAVE to be sacrified in order for God to forgive our sins?  God can do whatever he wants, and he is by nature very forgiving.  There is no rule of the universe that God has to answer to , which would make him not be able to forgive our sins unless Jesus died for them.

These threads that I make are not to attack Christianity but to urge Christians like yourself to step back and think logically what makes sense to you, and question whether that's consistent with what your elders or church taught you.

Wish you could see how ironic this post is from my perspective  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 12:54:06 PM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal. in other parts Jesus is referred to as God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON which would be the difference

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.Jesus was talking to christians about christians.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.like women are equal to men, and infidels equal to muslims?

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)however in James, it says works without faith is dead

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).Yes, he was a prophet in addition to son of god and the messiah. he wore 3 hats. the christian argument is that jesus was not JUST a prophet

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.see above

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.but you believe Muhammad is a spokesperson for god, so your track record isn't all that stellar

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times. so?

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.Jesus is God in human form, temporarily seperated in some aspects

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 12:55:08 PM »

Oh brother, someone's been mentally deprived.

If we had to lie about our faith it would completely contradict the fact that islam is a message for all mankind and that we are obligated to speak of what islam is.

The only ones thus far lying have been zealot islamophobes.

We expect you to say you aren't lying.. hence, you have proven his point
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 12:56:47 PM »

I believe Christ is not GOD. But I do believe he was a perfect man who lived a perfect life which made him the perfect sacrifice so that all sins may be forgiven.

Might as well say you believe Jesus was a Yankees fan since you are disregarding what the bible says and fashioning your own religion
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 01:38:15 PM »

Might as well say you believe Jesus was a Yankees fan since you are disregarding what the bible says and fashioning your own religion

Where does the Bible specifically say Jesus is God, or better yet where does Jesus claim he is God?  He definitely claimed to be a prophet (in the verse I indicated at the start of the thread).
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bigbobs
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2012, 01:53:48 PM »



Thanks for attempting to respond to the various points, while I found your resposes weak, I decided to address most of them anyway:

Re: the use of the word "begotten" son for Jesus, I haven't even read most of the Bible and I already came across another verse which says all righteous people are "begotten."  It's in the New Testament and I have it marked in one of my bibles at home.  Won't be able to post the link until Saturday as I'm out of town until then.

Oh and there is lots of Islamic scripture that confirms all humans are equal.  You will NEVER find a verse that says "a slave is not above his master" as I showed in the book of Matthew.  And nice "defence" of the verse by trying (and failing) at suggested that the Quran has similar verses.

The argument that Jesus is both a prophet and God makes zero sense - because prophet by definition is a messenger of God.  You can't be both, by definition.

Stupid example of comparing Muhammad to Jesus where I pointed out that Jesus prayed to God, because we aren't the ones calling a prophet God.  Of course Muhammad prayed to God.  My point of saying Jesus prayed to God is to show that he is a separate entity, because no one prays to themself.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2012, 01:56:20 PM »

Where does the Bible specifically say Jesus is God, or better yet where does Jesus claim he is God?  He definitely claimed to be a prophet (in the verse I indicated at the start of the thread).

John 14:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I personally am not arguing that Jesus is god.. My comment was that if you say you believe Jesus was just a man without sin..... then you might as well say you believe he was a yankees fan because the bible does say he was more than just a man without sin
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 01:59:53 PM »

It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.

•John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
•John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
•Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"


Stole that from another site...
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 02:00:20 PM »

John 14:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I personally am not arguing that Jesus is god.. My comment was that if you say you believe Jesus was just a man without sin..... then you might as well say you believe he was a yankees fan because the bible does say he was more than just a man without sin

Even though the verse you pasted is aggressively translated there is still no black and white declaration that Jesus is God within it.
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 02:01:26 PM »

^No it does't Agnostic007

Why post manipulated verses out of context but ignore hundreds of other verses which illustrate that jesus was just a man who was vulnerable, angry, bleeding, praying, etc...

Being one with the father, aka working in the same cause not LITERALLY the same. These back and forth arguments would demonstrate as if certain Christians are trying to prove God is bipolar.

Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God according to other verses. How do you argue this? With intellect and logic not blind faith.

Jesus doesn't know things, that only God knows. Jesus cannot do things without God's permission. How do you reconcile all this?

Hence the confusion with christians some will say Jesus is God, some will say Jesus is son of God (literally), some will say Jesus is 'both' which again makes no senes, etc...

In the end not a single inconcivable verse that outright says "I Jesus, I am God Almighty", or "I am Jesus, worship ME". None. Only manipulated misinterpretations of verses alongside contradictions of other verses which show the absolute opposite.

Remember in Matthew, Jesus prayed THREE TIMES "To his God" (not to himself) and in the third attempt his companions fell asleep. So he wasn't 'trying to show them how to pray' as some christians argue for the trinity lol... he was praying to God... period. And what did he say? Not my will but yours be done? The literal meaning in Arabic of a Muslim, submitting your will to God's will.

Jesus was tempted by the devil, his own creatoin. How does GOD get tempted by his own creation, in particular satan. Offering Jesus "the world', etc... Why would GOD be tempted by the power of the world when lol.. God is the one that created the world and the devil, etc...
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 02:10:54 PM »

^No it does't Agnostic007

Why post manipulated verses out of context but ignore hundreds of other verses which illustrate that jesus was just a man who was vulnerable, angry, bleeding, praying, etc...

Being one with the father, aka working in the same cause not LITERALLY the same. These back and forth arguments would demonstrate as if certain Christians are trying to prove God is bipolar.

Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God according to other verses. How do you argue this? With intellect and logic not blind faith.

Jesus doesn't know things, that only God knows. Jesus cannot do things without God's permission. How do you reconcile all this?

Hence the confusion with christians some will say Jesus is God, some will say Jesus is son of God (literally), some will say Jesus is 'both' which again makes no senes, etc...

In the end not a single inconcivable verse that outright says "I Jesus, I am God Almighty", or "I am Jesus, worship ME". None. Only manipulated misinterpretations of verses alongside contradictions of other verses which show the absolute opposite.

Remember in Matthew, Jesus prayed THREE TIMES "To his God" (not to himself) and in the third attempt his companions fell asleep. So he wasn't 'trying to show them how to pray' as some christians argue for the trinity lol... he was praying to God... period. And what did he say? Not my will but yours be done? The literal meaning in Arabic of a Muslim, submitting your will to God's will.

Jesus was tempted by the devil, his own creatoin. How does GOD get tempted by his own creation, in particular satan. Offering Jesus "the world', etc... Why would GOD be tempted by the power of the world when lol.. God is the one that created the world and the devil, etc...

You win... Jesus was not God. Now will you concede Muhammad made it all up?
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 02:20:38 PM »

Muhammad (pbuh) didn't make anything up, he didn't speak of his own accord.

The new testament is largely composed of writings of Paul his 'letters', where he brags, whines, rants alot about himself and himself.

The Qur'an barely speaks of Muhammad (pbuh), only mentioned 4 times, plus one more as Ahmed. It doesn't go into details about his family or wives or whoevers. He is only delievering a message from God. The qur'an. Which reaffirms that which was before and gives guidance and principles for us all.

The biggest surah of the qur'an opens with "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah". You should read what comes forward.

One of the things that struck me while learning about Islam is a few verses later where it says people who claim they are 'peace makers' in this earth but Allah responds to them verily they are the mischief makers on this earth.

Kind of made me think about who does what on this earth. Afterall that time march 2003 there were tens of millions of people in global protests against war in Iraq and the lies that led to it. Look at us today and how much more mischief has been spread across the earth, how much more has been done.

Of course the verse doesn't speak about the "US" because the US didn't exist, but it certainly sets forth things to make us think upon.

Point being, the qur'an is not a 'book Muhammad made up' as he barely speaks about himself.

He departed this world with no wealth, and he spent his life after receiving the message at 40 through suffering and struggling as did his companions for doing what, spreadin the message that God is one.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 02:25:19 PM »

You win... Jesus was not God. Now will you concede Muhammad made it all up?

You do realize that Jesus is to Christians much different than Muhammad is to Muslims right?
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 02:47:49 PM »

Christians friends are unusually silent on this thread?

Swamped at work...big deliverables and no time to post at length.  Will do my best when I free up.
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