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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 7909 times)
bigbobs
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« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2012, 07:54:56 PM »

Fellas, I'm done....dust from my feet.  

Despite our differences in beliefs I do wish the best for you in this life and the hereafter.  You are a lot more respectful in debate than some Christians I have met.
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« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2012, 07:57:17 AM »

Despite our differences in beliefs I do wish the best for you in this life and the hereafter.  You are a lot more respectful in debate than some Christians I have met.

And of course the same to you.  It's just time to end our discussion on these topics as choices have clearly been made, but I'll certainly respond to your other posts and questions....that's all good.
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2012, 10:18:25 PM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

if one so desired, they could read anything and make it mean whatever they wanted it to.
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« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2013, 06:45:25 AM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

John 19:6-7
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”  But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2013, 08:45:11 AM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)


Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
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« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2013, 04:34:35 AM »

Your choice of religion is due to your cultural background and desire for a sense of 'belonging'.

Consciously you might reject this, but unconsciously this is what is guiding you.
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« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2013, 06:32:23 AM »

i often read the bible when i'm in church and the sermon is boring me

a lot of it is difficult to put into context

i think you need a lot of preliminary knowledge before reading this in the right context
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« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2013, 11:07:31 PM »

Loco I'm going to respond to your quotes which you asked me to quite a while ago, but before I do I want to clarify that there's no denying that yes there are some instances of people in the Bible having called Jesus God, but not a single declaration/quote from Jesus himself making this claim.  Someone else claiming that Jesus is God, despite his own denying of it on several  other occasions, does not form as evidence of his divinity.

John 19:6-7
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”  But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

The title "son of God" is used a lot in the Bible and not only towards Jesus, but also Adam (Luke 3:38), Solomon (2 Samuel 7:13-14 and 1 Chronicles 22:10), followers or God (Romans 8:14) and entire nations (Deuteronomy 14:1, 1 John 3:1-2).  Therefore, even if the accusation by the Jewish leaders was correct, that does not in itself mean that Jesus must be a literal son of God, otherwise Adam, Solomon, etc. would carry the same status as Jesus.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

So the author of John 5:18 believes that calling God one's father makes himself equal to God?  Not really sure where you were going with this verse.  If you're trying to suggest that calling God father makes one equal to God, this belief can easily be dismissed by the many verses where Jesus tells us that God is "our" father, ex. "Do not call anyone on earth "father," for you have one father, and he is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9).  Now if calling God "father" means one is claiming to be equal to God, this would mean that Jesus is telling us that we are all equal to God, which he obviously would not say.

John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

I addressed this one before, will paste my response here:

Someitmes to show solidarity with my wife I say "My wife and I are one."  This does not mean we are literally one being.  But I'm guessing you're also thinking that the fact the opponents started throwing stones on Jesus and saying "because you, a mere man, claim to be God" is evidence.  However, you conveniently skipped the verses before and after this excerpt.  Looking before, verse 24 shows that the Jews were asking him if he is the Christ (not asking him if he was God), to which he confirmed that he is (note Christ does not equal God because the title is used for other humans (Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus of Persian is called God's Christ, just one example).  So they ask Jesus if he is Christ and he replies Yes, then they stone him and accuse him of claiming to be God.  In response (in verse 34) "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods?"  If he called them "gods" to whom the word of God came - and the scripture cannot be broken - what about one whom the Father setapart as his very own and sent into the world.  Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son?"  So here Jesus explains that even if he had said something which they misinterpreted to mean that Jesus is claiming to be God (ex. confirming that he is Christ), they should realise that some human beings were called "gods" in the Bible (ex. Psalms 82:6-8) which shows God has honoured some human beings by calling them "gods."  This is just a figurative expression, but Jesus was reminding the Jews who were stoning him so that they should understand that even if he says something that they take as him claiming to be god, they should take it as a figurative expression.


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Also responded to this before, pasting it again:  "But in John 5:37 Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time.  1 John 4:12 also says that no one has ever seen God.  If Jesus was God, then whoever has seen Jesus would have seen God.  The verses above you posted, saying "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" mean that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus taught about God.


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

As I stated at the start of this post, this comes back to the fact that some others in the Bible referred to Jesus as God, but nowhere did Jesus claim it.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Again, not sure where you're trying to go with this verse?  
  
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:9-14

Again, not sure where you're trying to go with this verse?  

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

"One and only son" does not make sense, because there are numerous others who also bear the title "son of God" in the Bible.  I'm not surprised that John 1:14 contains such a contradiction, as contradictions are rampant in the Bible.   That's a whole other topic which we can get into.
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« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2013, 09:07:29 AM »

bigbobs,  are you going to respond to this?

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)


Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
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« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2013, 10:41:41 AM »

bigbobs,  are you going to respond to this?

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Loco with at least half or your posts towards me asking for a response, I honestly don't even know what point you're trying to make to get me to respond to.  Instead of just typing a bunch of verses with some phrases bolded, if you can add some discussion as to what you're suggesting these verses mean, and how they contradict my views on the Bible, I woudl then have something to work off of and send you a response.
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« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2013, 12:14:53 PM »

Loco with at least half or your posts towards me asking for a response, I honestly don't even know what point you're trying to make to get me to respond to.  Instead of just typing a bunch of verses with some phrases bolded, if you can add some discussion as to what you're suggesting these verses mean, and how they contradict my views on the Bible, I woudl then have something to work off of and send you a response.

That's interesting!  You had no problems responding to my other posts that were no different.  The Bible verses I posted directly contradict everything that you said about the Bible on salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2013, 02:12:17 PM »

That's interesting!  You had no problems responding to my other posts that were no different.  The Bible verses I posted directly contradict everything that you said about the Bible on salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Actually yes, I did have problems responding to your other posts.  A few of the verses I simply said I had no idea what you were trying to imply or get me to respond to.  And even when responding to some of your Bible quotes I'm not always sure that I'm addressing what you're trying to question.

The verses above that you posted tell me that it is faith not actions that determine where one spends eternity.  Believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved, etc.  How are your verses at all contradictory to what I've been saying?
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« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2013, 02:32:19 PM »

Actually yes, I did have problems responding to your other posts.  A few of the verses I simply said I had no idea what you were trying to imply or get me to respond to.  And even when responding to some of your Bible quotes I'm not always sure that I'm addressing what you're trying to question.

The verses above that you posted tell me that it is faith not actions that determine where one spends eternity.  Believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved, etc.  How are your verses at all contradictory to what I've been saying?

What?  I thought you were saying the opposite.  My apologies!  We agree, at least on this.      Grin
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« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2013, 02:40:57 PM »

What?  I thought you were saying the opposite.  My apologies!  We agree, at least on this.      Grin

Ahh okay, that's great  Grin

So we agree that Christianity teaches that faith alone and not actions will determine where you spend the afterlife.  Next question, which I imagine we disagree on - do you think this is at all just or fair?  Ex. evil person who accepted Jesus as his saviour before dying goes to heaven regardless of sins committed compared to nice person who does lots of good deeds but did not believe Jesus was God, say he believed Jesus is a prophet such as myself?
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« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2013, 02:45:58 PM »

Ahh okay, that's great  Grin

So we agree that Christianity teaches that faith alone and not actions will determine where you spend the afterlife.  Next question, which I imagine we disagree on - do you think this is at all just or fair?  Ex. evil person who accepted Jesus as his saviour before dying goes to heaven regardless of sins committed compared to nice person who does lots of good deeds but did not believe Jesus was God, say he believed Jesus is a prophet such as myself?

No, we agree that the Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ alone and not actions will determine where you spend the after life.  I posted the Bible verses, and you agreed they say that. 
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2013, 03:31:09 PM »

No, we agree that the Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ alone and not actions will determine where you spend the after life.  I posted the Bible verses, and you agreed they say that. 

No offence but I find you confusing Smiley

Is there a reason why you didn't answer my question in my immediately prior post?
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2013, 03:50:27 PM »

It's not a matter of confusion it's a matter of some christians (most) making up what they believe as they go.. because according to scripture it go anyway/bothway ..

I know for a fact deeds and good works are mentioned as necessitie, as necessity to even enter kingdom of God, etc...

But every christian is always confused the only ones that are 'certain' are evangelical types which out of their own personal conviction say they are gaurenteed heaven for worshipping Jesus. Not scriptural evidence just blind faith.

We've gone back and forth on this issue too.

In Islam on the other hand it is so simple. No you do not enter heaven by deeds alone, but by God's mercy HOWEVER out of justice God will judge everyone justly, reward and punish based on our deeds. God can forgive all sins if he so wills, except shirk which is idolatry/partnership with God such as worshipping a man.

As was stated many times, what about the many criminals who profess 'faith' in jeus as their 'personal savior' and god but they kill, steal, rape, etc...

No, it's illogical and unjust.

Nor is it just that ONE MAN has to SUFFER for ALL mankind. Imagine you murder someone and i'm like no ill be your savior, i will take your sins you murder, its okay, i will go in your place you are saved. Imagine if the court justice system worked like that. Impractical and unjust.
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« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2013, 03:50:52 PM »

No offence but I find you confusing Smiley

Is there a reason why you didn't answer my question in my immediately prior post?

I wanted to clear up what it is that we agree on before answering your question.

Why do you find me confusing?

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« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »

It's not a matter of confusion it's a matter of some christians (most) making up what they believe as they go.. because according to scripture it go anyway/bothway ..

I know for a fact deeds and good works are mentioned as necessitie, as necessity to even enter kingdom of God, etc...

But every christian is always confused the only ones that are 'certain' are evangelical types which out of their own personal conviction say they are gaurenteed heaven for worshipping Jesus. Not scriptural evidence just blind faith.

We've gone back and forth on this issue too.

In Islam on the other hand it is so simple. No you do not enter heaven by deeds alone, but by God's mercy HOWEVER out of justice God will judge everyone justly, reward and punish based on our deeds. God can forgive all sins if he so wills, except shirk which is idolatry/partnership with God such as worshipping a man.

As was stated many times, what about the many criminals who profess 'faith' in jeus as their 'personal savior' and god but they kill, steal, rape, etc...

No, it's illogical and unjust.

Nor is it just that ONE MAN has to SUFFER for ALL mankind. Imagine you murder someone and i'm like no ill be your savior, i will take your sins you murder, its okay, i will go in your place you are saved. Imagine if the court justice system worked like that. Impractical and unjust.

What about these verses then?  bigbobs agrees they teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
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bigbobs
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« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2013, 03:54:47 PM »

What about these verses then?  bigbobs agrees they teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Again, what's your point?  Yeah it can be interpreted that that these verses teach salvation through Jesus, which is a primary reason I don't believe in their accuracy.
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loco
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« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2013, 03:58:24 PM »

Again, what's your point?  Yeah it can be interpreted that that these verses teach salvation through Jesus, which is a primary reason I don't believe in their accuracy.

Thank you! 

So you doubt their accuracy because they do not align with your religion?
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« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2013, 03:59:01 PM »

I wanted to clear up what it is that we agree on before answering your question.

Why do you find me confusing?



Because you post verses without explaining why and expect me to know what you're asking me to respond to.  Then you say we agree then disagree on the same topic
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« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2013, 03:59:57 PM »

Thank you!  

So you doubt their accuracy because they do not align with your religion?

The bigger reason I doubt their accuracy is because it is simply unjust and unreasonable (Ahmed just explained in detail as to why).

Another reason I doubt its accuracy is because other Biblical verses indicate that actions determine where you will spend eternity.
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« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2013, 04:02:44 PM »

It's not a matter of confusion it's a matter of some christians (most) making up what they believe as they go.. because according to scripture it go anyway/bothway ..

I know for a fact deeds and good works are mentioned as necessitie, as necessity to even enter kingdom of God, etc...

But every christian is always confused the only ones that are 'certain' are evangelical types which out of their own personal conviction say they are gaurenteed heaven for worshipping Jesus. Not scriptural evidence just blind faith.

We've gone back and forth on this issue too.

In Islam on the other hand it is so simple. No you do not enter heaven by deeds alone, but by God's mercy HOWEVER out of justice God will judge everyone justly, reward and punish based on our deeds. God can forgive all sins if he so wills, except shirk which is idolatry/partnership with God such as worshipping a man.

As was stated many times, what about the many criminals who profess 'faith' in jeus as their 'personal savior' and god but they kill, steal, rape, etc...

No, it's illogical and unjust.

Nor is it just that ONE MAN has to SUFFER for ALL mankind. Imagine you murder someone and i'm like no ill be your savior, i will take your sins you murder, its okay, i will go in your place you are saved. Imagine if the court justice system worked like that. Impractical and unjust.

This is indeed a topic which many Christians are confused about and contradict each other.  Depending on which Christian I talk to, some will say that faith alone will get you to heaven regadless of sins or good deeds you perform, some say "you need to accept Jesus but you also can't sin," etc
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« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2013, 04:04:36 PM »

This is indeed a topic which many Christians are confused about and contradict each other.  Depending on which Christian I talk to, some will say that faith alone will get you to heaven regadless of sins or good deeds you perform, some say "you need to accept Jesus but you also can't sin," etc

So Christians disagree, as do many Muslims, as do many Jews.  Big deal.

But all Christians agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins. 
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