Author Topic: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now  (Read 31765 times)

The Scott

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #150 on: November 08, 2012, 08:37:22 PM »
With all the Billionaires in the world, it doesn't make sense that a so called super intelligent business mind like Romney isn't one. In fact, he isn't even close. Don't get me wrong, 250 million is impressive, but for as long as he's been trying to add to his portfolio, why is he not a billionaire? If we think Romney would make a good President because of his business sense, why not just throw Jay Z or P.Diddy the title. Both of those guys are worth double what Romney's worth and have been at it(making large sums of money) almost half the time.

Making hippity hoppity "music" is nothing to admire unless you are culturally inclined to be so or in that business.  Granted, all of Romney's business endevors may not pass your personal litmus test (whatever that may be, sir!), but still he is better qualified to get us out of the muck and mire than is the fellow who is bent upon turning the business landscape into the La Brea Tar Pits.

You question was valid and my answer is equally so. 

tbombz

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #151 on: November 08, 2012, 08:45:10 PM »
Making hippity hoppity "music" is nothing to admire unless you are culturally inclined to be so or in that business.  Granted, all of Romney's business endevors may not pass your personal litmus test (whatever that may be, sir!), but still he is better qualified to get us out of the muck and mire than is the fellow who is bent upon turning the business landscape into the La Brea Tar Pits.

You question was valid and my answer is equally so. 
i dont think your answer is valid because you make the accusation that obama wants to damage the economy. his policies might be bad for the economy, but i seriously doubt its his intention.

dr.chimps

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #152 on: November 08, 2012, 08:46:01 PM »
Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.  Not all of them, but far too many of them I can assure you.  It is odd that many of those that would belittle people with faith in God cry foul craven when conservatives make light of their "faith" in the idiocy of a presidency bent upon giving them what they refuse to earn, by getting even with those who prosper from their own labors.  

Liberal idiocy and the evil born of it demands a scapegoat.  The Nazis had Jews and Liberals have successful people (save liberal actors/actresses/politicians and the like, mind you).

They do not desire hope, they desire to "get even" with those that work for a living.  If any of these people actually work for a living (and I know there are more than a few), then I hope (there's their "faith word", HOPE) they are taxed to the marrow and suffer ten fold because of their choice in "leadership".
C-

/'Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.'  nice. almost un-robotic-like.  

The Scott

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #153 on: November 08, 2012, 08:53:53 PM »
C-

/'Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.'  nice. almost un-robotic-like.  

Thanks!  Only a fool thinks ill of everyone that differs from them in one way or another.   Neither of us are fools, my friend.   ;D

This holds true for the majority of people here. 

The Abdominal Snoman

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #154 on: November 08, 2012, 08:57:37 PM »
Making hippity hoppity "music" is nothing to admire unless you are culturally inclined to be so or in that business.  Granted, all of Romney's business endevors may not pass your personal litmus test (whatever that may be, sir!), but still he is better qualified to get us out of the muck and mire than is the fellow who is bent upon turning the business landscape into the La Brea Tar Pits.

You question was valid and my answer is equally so.  


Interesting article asking the same question I asked. Doesn't make sense that Romney isn't a Billionaire many, many times over.

 

 

 
Mitt Romney is worth $250 million. Why so little?
    
By William D. Cohan, Published: October 5

Mitt Romney is indisputably a very rich man. And if he is elected president on Nov. 6, he will become one of the wealthiest people ever to hold the office.

But exactly how wealthy is Romney? The figure that gets tossed around is $250 million in net worth — meaning the total value of his assets, financial and others, minus any debts.

Mitt Romney's $250 million net worth is much smaller than that of the other big players in the private-equity and leveraged buyout business, as listed in the latest Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America.

It’s a big number, but frankly, it seems low. Given the industry in which he made his fortune (private equity), the era when he made it (the 1980s and 1990s) and the wealth of his peers in that business (mostly billionaires), Romney should be worth a good bit more than that.

Why isn’t he?

No surprise, Romney has not made it easy to figure out the precise size of his fortune, and any inferences drawn from the available data are necessarily speculative — yet they still, I think, say something about the man who would be president.

We know that Romney’s fortune derives in large part from his founding in 1984 of Bain Capital, one of the premier private-equity firms in the world, which he ran for the next 15 years or so, during a boom time for the industry. Among Bain’s most successful investments are those in well-known companies such as Staples, Domino’s Pizza, Dunkin’ Donuts and the Weather Channel. Others include lesser-known enterprises such as Experian, an information-services company that Bain bought (with Thomas H. Lee Company, another Boston-based buyout firm) for $1 billion in 1996 and sold months laterfor a profit of $700 million; and Seat Pagine Gialle, an Italian yellow-pages business whose investors, including Bain, made $1 billion in profits after two years.

We also know that Bain was supposedly so successful under Romney’s leadership that the firm was able to charge its investors fees 50 percent higher than those of its competitors. Instead of the typical industry fee of 2 percent of the cash under management and 20 percent of the profits on individual deals, Romney extracted from investors a 3 percent fee and 30 percent of profits for the privilege of investing in Bain’s deals. Sophisticated investors — pension funds, university endowments and large foundations — that put money in private equity don’t do this kind of thing willingly. They did it at Bain because they believed it was worth the price to get into the deals.

And finally, we know that the other people who founded private-equity firms around the same time that Romney and his partners started Bain, and who had to make do with a lower fee structure, are far richer than Romney. These men — Henry Kravis and his cousin George Roberts, the founders of KKR & Co.; the late Teddy Forstmann, the founder of Forstmann Little; David Bonderman and Jim Coulter, the founders of TPG Capital; Leon Black, the founder of Apollo Global Management; Steve Schwarzman and Pete Peterson, the founders of the Blackstone Group; David Rubenstein, the founder of the Carlyle Group; and Jonathan Nelson, the founder of Providence Equity Partners — each have a net worth measured in the billions. Schwarzman, with a fortune greater than $5 billion, is the wealthiest buyout mogul, according to the latest Forbes 400 list.


The Scott

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #155 on: November 08, 2012, 08:59:46 PM »
i dont think your answer is valid because you make the accusation that obama wants to damage the economy. his policies might be bad for the economy, but i seriously doubt its his intention.

And you claim and above average IQ?  His intent is clear enough save for those wearing neither rose colored glasses nor blinders.   You have only to look at Greece or other European countries to know that which he seeks for the US is going to do a great deal of harm.  The "Great Society" is a failure because the "safety net" was in reality, a trawling net designed to trap and hold people for the sake of a vote.  

So far it has enslaved generations.  

The Scott

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2012, 09:06:06 PM »

Interesting article asking the same question I asked. Doesn't make sense that Romney isn't a Billionaire many, many times over.

 

 

 
Mitt Romney is worth $250 million. Why so little?
    
By William D. Cohan, Published: October 5

Mitt Romney is indisputably a very rich man. And if he is elected president on Nov. 6, he will become one of the wealthiest people ever to hold the office.

But exactly how wealthy is Romney? The figure that gets tossed around is $250 million in net worth — meaning the total value of his assets, financial and others, minus any debts.

Mitt Romney's $250 million net worth is much smaller than that of the other big players in the private-equity and leveraged buyout business, as listed in the latest Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America.

It’s a big number, but frankly, it seems low. Given the industry in which he made his fortune (private equity), the era when he made it (the 1980s and 1990s) and the wealth of his peers in that business (mostly billionaires), Romney should be worth a good bit more than that.

Why isn’t he?

No surprise, Romney has not made it easy to figure out the precise size of his fortune, and any inferences drawn from the available data are necessarily speculative — yet they still, I think, say something about the man who would be president.

We know that Romney’s fortune derives in large part from his founding in 1984 of Bain Capital, one of the premier private-equity firms in the world, which he ran for the next 15 years or so, during a boom time for the industry. Among Bain’s most successful investments are those in well-known companies such as Staples, Domino’s Pizza, Dunkin’ Donuts and the Weather Channel. Others include lesser-known enterprises such as Experian, an information-services company that Bain bought (with Thomas H. Lee Company, another Boston-based buyout firm) for $1 billion in 1996 and sold months laterfor a profit of $700 million; and Seat Pagine Gialle, an Italian yellow-pages business whose investors, including Bain, made $1 billion in profits after two years.

We also know that Bain was supposedly so successful under Romney’s leadership that the firm was able to charge its investors fees 50 percent higher than those of its competitors. Instead of the typical industry fee of 2 percent of the cash under management and 20 percent of the profits on individual deals, Romney extracted from investors a 3 percent fee and 30 percent of profits for the privilege of investing in Bain’s deals. Sophisticated investors — pension funds, university endowments and large foundations — that put money in private equity don’t do this kind of thing willingly. They did it at Bain because they believed it was worth the price to get into the deals.

And finally, we know that the other people who founded private-equity firms around the same time that Romney and his partners started Bain, and who had to make do with a lower fee structure, are far richer than Romney. These men — Henry Kravis and his cousin George Roberts, the founders of KKR & Co.; the late Teddy Forstmann, the founder of Forstmann Little; David Bonderman and Jim Coulter, the founders of TPG Capital; Leon Black, the founder of Apollo Global Management; Steve Schwarzman and Pete Peterson, the founders of the Blackstone Group; David Rubenstein, the founder of the Carlyle Group; and Jonathan Nelson, the founder of Providence Equity Partners — each have a net worth measured in the billions. Schwarzman, with a fortune greater than $5 billion, is the wealthiest buyout mogul, according to the latest Forbes 400 list.



Good points, all.  But, he is well off enough, is he not?  It is doubtless that were he even wealthier that wealth would label him even more a pariah in the eyes of those who despise him for his wealth but want it for themselves.

He seems a man of good morals, with good family oriented values and a fine business sense.  Again, more wealth would only "burden" him further in the jealous hearts of those already set against him and others who succeed.    It is what it is.  The truth.


honest

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #157 on: November 08, 2012, 09:12:35 PM »
Health care reform and increased welfare requirements in an economy where there are less tax dollars taking into account the level of government current debt he inherited was economic suicide.
He doubles triples the debt in four years, then gets re elected, in a popularity contest, unbelievable.

avxo

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #158 on: November 08, 2012, 09:15:43 PM »
"Powers" WTF? How about business commonsense? What do you when you have more debt than income? Cut out unnecessary expenses to free up cash flow, right? Of course you do. You don't borrow at a higher premium to pay existing loans. 

You said that as President Romney could turn around the economy fast. HOW? What could Romney do, as President, that would achieve this.

What you say about cash flow is irrelevant since the Congress decides both the income and the expenses of the United States. The President does not. Sure he submits a budget, but it's Congress that has the final say. And with Congress split, and the Republicans controlling the House and the Democrats controlling the Senate, it's unlikely that any consensus would be reached in Congress.

You said that President Romney could turn this economy around fairly quickly. These are your words - you said them - so clearly you believe that, as President, he would have some powers inherent in the Presidency that would allow him to leverage his business experience to achieve this quick turn around. What are those powers? Please list them, specifically.

Inquiring minds want to know Coach...

The Abdominal Snoman

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #159 on: November 08, 2012, 09:35:50 PM »
Good points, all.  But, he is well off enough, is he not?  It is doubtless that were he even wealthier that wealth would label him even more a pariah in the eyes of those who despise him for his wealth but want it for themselves.

He seems a man of good morals, with good family oriented values and a fine business sense.  Again, more wealth would only "burden" him further in the jealous hearts of those already set against him and others who succeed.    It is what it is.  The truth.



Unless of course he was a billionaire or close to one on paper at one point and lost a lot of it through very bad investments. What if his old man left him 500 million and Mitt lost half of it? Not saying that happened but something don't add up that Mitt isn't a Billionaire imop.

tbombz

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #160 on: November 08, 2012, 09:49:34 PM »
And you claim and above average IQ?  His intent is clear enough save for those wearing neither rose colored glasses nor blinders.   You have only to look at Greece or other European countries to know that which he seeks for the US is going to do a great deal of harm.  The "Great Society" is a failure because the "safety net" was in reality, a trawling net designed to trap and hold people for the sake of a vote.  

So far it has enslaved generations.  

if i accept all of your precepts as valid, your still only able to prove that his policies are bad for the economy and that he supports them because they help to get him elected. the idea that his intention is to damage the economy isnt a valid conclusion.

the reality is that some of obama's policies are a drag on the economy. requiring employers offer healthcare for example. and dodd frank makes it very tough to qualify for a loan as i understand it. but he is good intentioned - he wants to increase health care coverage, he wants to keep wall street in check to prevent predatory and risky behavior that puts consumers wealth on the line.  and other policies like making it easier and cheaper to get a student loan and investing in infrastructure and clean energy are good for the economy.

kawaks

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #161 on: November 08, 2012, 10:28:22 PM »
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.
get the idea?
everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?
its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.
the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.
so, where is the problem?

RISK vs REWARD is the problem

We've seen a 400 point drop in the dow in the last 2 days post the Obama rally.

The EURO is UP at the moment, Dow futures UP 48 points so we should see a good turn around FRI open on Wall Street

CFD 5 contracts, LONG *now*

And let's see what happens ;-0

George Whorewell

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2012, 04:15:46 AM »

WOW. You just said alot of Nothing.

I was responding to a lot of nothing. And you just replied to my nothing.

It must have been something.

arce1988

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2012, 11:00:39 AM »
  Great post

Ropo

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2012, 11:18:30 AM »
Marxist rant  ::)

But still absolute truth about the matter.

Nails

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #165 on: November 09, 2012, 11:37:39 AM »
 :P



Kulutues

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #166 on: November 09, 2012, 11:52:51 AM »
Every civilization either lost to war or was destroyed from within like the US is nowadays, more takers than givers.

james87

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2012, 06:22:15 PM »
this is actually a fully solid thread.

lol at the ppl who think romeny wouldve been a good president bc hes wealthy.

thats so wrong , in so many aspects, i dont know where to start pointing out the flaws on that thought.

healthcare a bad act bc financial reasons?

ah i see, finances before health, eh?

Finances before health, what are you talking about? A country cant keep spending money they don't have, they cant keep borrowing and printing money to finance health and welfare, it has to come from somewhere. Taxing big business more and more wont help, it never has. History has shown this over and over yet what is it about governments that are so determined to tax more and spend more, borrow more and print more-insanity.

The Scott

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2012, 08:18:56 PM »
this is actually a fully solid thread.

lol at the ppl who think romeny wouldve been a good president bc hes wealthy.

thats so wrong , in so many aspects, i dont know where to start pointing out the flaws on that thought.

healthcare a bad act bc financial reasons?

ah i see, finances before health, eh?

Taking care of  yourself is more important than taking advantage of others hard work.


Roger Bacon

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #169 on: November 09, 2012, 08:20:53 PM »
I love this thread. Lots of interesting comments. As for Coach, I like the dude. And I like Dr. Chimps, even if he rags on Coach way too much.

People talk about the President like he has his shit figured out. He is no different than us. I have been in Washington quite a few times, was at several White House Business Council meetings, and met Mr. Obama, and Valerie Jarrett, and Gene Sperling and a shit load of others... They have no fucking clue what's going on in the economy. Nor do I fault them for it. Its a very complex system. Sperling held a question and answer session asking us, the business people, what to do. Oh yeah, the President has it all figured out  ::)

As for capitalism, it doesn't pick winners or losers. You play the game right, you win. And the "game" is poorly defined, even the rules. These comments about "Americans being stupid" Oh man. What grade are these people in. I know lots of stupid people, myself included. Its spans the globe. The moment you think you know it all, are elite, or have it figured out, then you have immediately branded yourself as an idiot. Ill be in Berlin in 3 weeks, at the Ministry for the Environment. I got the invite because I said straight up I cant solve the worlds problems but Id like to see if I can help. Humility is in short supply these days.

Oh and I lift weights, to keep this bodybuilding related. But I don't take steroids. Just lots of wine.

Good man, keep it up!  8)

tbombz

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2012, 09:16:59 PM »
Finances before health, what are you talking about? A country cant keep spending money they don't have, they cant keep borrowing and printing money to finance health and welfare, it has to come from somewhere. Taxing big business more and more wont help, it never has. History has shown this over and over yet what is it about governments that are so determined to tax more and spend more, borrow more and print more-insanity.
i sympathize with your point of view..   let me try to put things in perspective..  "finances before health" because the argument against obamacare is that the requirements for employers to offer healthcare is a drag on the economy..     taxing big business does create revenue that can be spent on health and welfare, and although taxes are never good for an economy there certainly isnt a historical track record to prove it.. tax rates were much higher on big business in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's and we had great economic success over tha course of time..   

honest

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2012, 05:44:21 AM »
el=0

Heres an insight to your future, truth be told the horse has already bolted,no matter who won your popularity contest.

james87

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2012, 02:25:42 PM »
i sympathize with your point of view..   let me try to put things in perspective..  "finances before health" because the argument against obamacare is that the requirements for employers to offer healthcare is a drag on the economy..     taxing big business does create revenue that can be spent on health and welfare, and although taxes are never good for an economy there certainly isnt a historical track record to prove it.. tax rates were much higher on big business in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's and we had great economic success over tha course of time..   
No, i don't think that's entirely true. Tax REVENUE has been higher in some of the periods you mentioned (not all) but EFFECTIVE marginal tax rates were not. The aftermath of lowering effective tax rates and personal income tax rates has, in history, resulted in a higher total tax revenue and budget surplus and a reduction in debt. Look, tax is necessary no doubt about it, however which ever way you want to spin it, imposing a tax for centralised health care on big business is just a tax on the employee, at the end of the day. From an employee benefits expense point of view, a business is going to pay X amount of dollars as a total remuneration package, it doesn't care how the total amount is split. Now me, i would rather have that extra money myself to decide what private health insurance is best going to suit me and what type of cover i need for my circumstances.

Slapper

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2012, 02:40:09 PM »
I'm a little late to the party but I gotta throw in my two cents.

Get this: the main economic activity "undercurrent" exists whether you live under a capitalist or socialist regime/government.

When it comes to wages, again, regardless of government type: you put your time in in school and do something valuable that not many fuckers are doing and you will be rewarded wage-wise. Examples? Brain surgeon, nuclear physicists, et cetera. This is the cream of the crop. It's no secret, if you want their salaries you have to go to school and study like them. The problem is that 95% of the people do not want to put in the effort and become part of the 95% pool of pseudo-schooled individuals that get bitched every which way. Eventually they, the majority, become bitter at the system, whether it's a democracy or an authoritarian regime, and develop this sense of entitlement that socialist know how to exploit so well.

Needless to say Da Secret is really no secret: in order to be wealthy you have to make that which people want and not many fuckers make.

It's simple.

What I really despise is individuals who think democracy is going to make them rich.

arce1988

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Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2012, 02:43:12 PM »
  Mitt is probably worth double that