ARNOLD CLASSIC COMPARISION 2013 vs 90's

[Disgusted]

just yrs and yrs of same protocols i guess or taking more/combo's,,or just body burn out ,,took gaspari 5 yrs to do it..

Gaspari just stopped responding due to many years of high dosages from a young age. These guys today wouldn't look all that bad if they would just concentrate on plain old anabolics. GH abuse and Slin are the downfall of BB.

[Palpatine Q]

I could have sworn we were talking about bodybuilders here.

we are...it's called "an analogy"..and it's a perfect one.

both are judged and are subjective.

both are known to have BULLSHIT decisions ( Cutler beating Cormier at the 03 Arnold...this board almost crashed with people saying how fucked up it was )

both have guys who were great in their prime, and then fall off and get beat by lesser opponents.

and level of competition isn't a recordable stat, but those of us who look at it objectively recognize that it is a huge factor.

Larry Holmes beat Muhammad ali. Ali went on to win a few other fights, and Holmes was a great Champion. But no one in their right mind would say Holmes was better than Ali. he fought tomato cans, while Ali fought in the most competitive era in heavyweight history.

lots of parallels.
 
And yes, they never held THE title becuase the "ALIS" of their sport were in the way. Yates and Coleman.

If Yates and Coleman's careers were shifted ten years forward NONE of those guys would have won a damn thing, just like Flex, Chris and Shawn didn't . They  had to deal with the two greatest Bodybuilders of all Time....today's top guys face bloated abominations.

This is the part where you say "but X beat Y so he's better"

[Figo]

I do agree that it's now gone to the pack and is just silly, but the 90's to was not completely free of this - it is sad, but I think BB ended in the early 90s - since then it's all about size at all costs, it's progression from each era - with all this extra size the things you must do to achieve it  will have these unsightly side effects unless of course your structure can carry it - most of these guys do not have the structure to carry this extra size and what comes with that huge size is the guts and total unbalance,.

I do agree with you but this did all start in the 90s era and has got progressively worse... PIP BB  

Structure

Levrone, nasser, DILLET, flex, shawn

Those guys pictured in this thread had the structure, and carried serious size properly. Flex and Shawn could carry 230 & 210 lbs on their frames, and that's what they did. Imagine what they'd look like at 280 & 250

Also, real muscle. Real muscle built with hormones,supplemented with slin, gh, and smart use of oil
Nowdays, no base, they boatload everything from day one, that's why they look bloated, separated yet smooth, defined yet glazed, vascular but not vaccuum packed dry

[Figo]

was Larry Holmes a better fighter than Muhuammad Ali ?

better record, beat him in competition and held the title longer

Good analogy

[FitnessFrenzy]

When Getbig doesn't like the current pro crop, nobody does. The stupid IFBB and Weider clowns are losing a lot of money just from these bloated clowns, which no fans wish to support or pay to see. Smart move. 

[Figo]

Gaspari just stopped responding due to many years of high dosages from a young age. These guys today wouldn't look all that bad if they would just concentrate on plain old anabolics. GH abuse and Slin are the downfall of BB.

Exactly

And key word is "abuse"

Guys were "using"slin and gh for many years, 80s already, but when abuse kicked in, it changed.
I think abuse started with Fux, Nasser, Ruhl.
Then Ronnie, Jay, etc took it another notch. But Ronnie could pull it off.
Heath, Kai, etc are not Ronnie

[MCWAY]

we are...it's called "an analogy"..and it's a perfect one.

both are judged and are subjective.

both are known to have BULLSHIT decisions ( Cutler beating Cormier at the 03 Arnold...this board almost crashed with people saying how fucked up it was )

both have guys who were great in their prime, and then fall off and get beat by lesser opponents.

No, it's not a perfect analogy, for the reason I posted (which you may have missed, since I edited my post.

Those men didn't win the big one. Cutler and Jackson did.

and level of competition isn't a recordable stat, but those of us who look at it objectively recognize that it is a huge factor.

Larry Holmes beat Muhammad ali. Ali went on to win a few other fights, and Holmes was a great Champion. But no one in their right mind would say Holmes was better than Ali. he fought tomato cans, while Ali fought in the most competitive era in heavyweight history.

lots of parallels.
 
And yes, they never held THE title becuase the "ALIS" of their sport were in the way. Yates and Coleman.

However, Cutler surpassed those guys, supplanting Levrone as the #2 bodybuilder in the world. Eventually, he got to Ronnie and became Mr. O.

In other words, Jay not only beat them. But, he did what they couldn't.

If Yates and Coleman's careers were shifted ten years forward NONE of those guys would have won a damn thing, just like Flex, Chris and Shawn didn't . They  had to deal with the two greatest Bodybuilders of all Time....today's top guys face bloated abominations.

This is the part where you say "but X beat Y so he's better"

Listen to what you just said about subjective decisions. You complain about Cutler's win over Cormier over the Arnold Classic. Yet, there are crickets, when it comes to some of Yates' wins, most notably 1994.

If their careers where shifted 10 years forward, Yates' Sandow count would be cut in half. And that of Ronnie by 25%.

WHY? The whole incumbency "knock-the-champ-out" mess is gone.

BTW - there were plenty of "bloated abominations" during the Yates and Coleman era (including Yates and Coleman, themselves). Do the names, Jean-Pierre Fux, Aaron Baker, Paul Dillett, Orville Burke, Markus Ruhl, (just to name a few) ring a bell?

[Palpatine Q]

No, it's not a perfect analogy, for the reason I posted (which you may have missed, since I edited my post.

Those men didn't win the big one. Cutler and Jackson did.

However, Cutler surpassed those guys, supplanting Levrone as the #2 bodybuilder in the world. Eventually, he got to Ronnie and became Mr. O.

In other words, Jay not only beat them. But, he did what they couldn't.

Listen to what you just said about subjective decisions. You complain about Cutler's win over Cormier over the Arnold Classic. Yet, there are crickets, when it comes to some of Yates' wins, most notably 1994.

If their careers where shifted 10 years forward, Yates' Sandow count would be cut in half. And that of Ronnie by 25%.

WHY? The whole incumbency "knock-the-champ-out" mess is gone.

BTW - there were plenty of "bloated abominations" during the Yates and Coleman era (including Yates and Coleman, themselves). Do the names, Jean-Pierre Fux, Aaron Baker, Paul Dillett, Orville Burke, Markus Ruhl, (just to name a few) ring a bell?

None of those guys are considered "legends" of the sport....and were not serious olympia  threats. with the exception of Dillet, and that's based on his ridiculous genetics only...and calling him "bloated" is comical

Jay's first mr Olympia competition was 1999..... he placed 14th. turned pro in 96 and didn't step onstage for two years

Flex,Chris, shawn and Kevin and Ronnie... were already long time veterans  coming to the end of their "prime years".  by the early 2000s when Jay hit his prime...they were on the way out... he's 7 years younger than them.  Most bodybuliders, the vast majority, have a three or four year "window" where they look amazing...then they are never the same and competing on their reputation.  Shawn Ray and chris Cormier are two exceptions actually, and looked great for a long time...especially shawn, he competed against two generations of Bodybuilders at the highest level. Dexter as well and he is among the best IMO, but Dex didn't turn pro until 1998. again, 5 years after the "90's guys"

 By the time Jay had hit his stride, in 2001...Cormier was a 9 year veteran. and he still smoked Cutler at the Arnold, it's common knowledge.

also when jay "finally got to Ronnie".....Ronnie had a torn tricep and lat, and was competing for 15 years...he was done.

Jay is a later generation BBer than the 90's guys...he was a very late 90's- early 2000's guy.  he only competed against them for a few years, when they were all veterans in their late 30's and he was just hitting his absolute prime.


it's Funny because the 2001 version of Jay Cutler would destroy the 2006 version that won the Mr. Olympia...and the 2009 version as well. what does that tell you?

[njflex]

None of those guys are considered "legends" of the sport....and were not serious olympia  threats. with the exception of Dillet, and that's based on his ridiculous genetics only...and calling him "bloated" is comical

Jay's first mr Olympia competition was 1999..... he placed 14th. turned pro in 96 and didn't step onstage for two years

Flex,Chris, shawn and Kevin and Ronnie... were already long time veterans  coming to the end of their "prime years".  by the early 2000s when Jay hit his prime...they were on the way out... he's 7 years younger than them.  Most bodybuliders, the vast majority, have a three or four year "window" where they look amazing...then they are never the same and competing on their reputation.  Shawn Ray and chris Cormier are two exceptions actually, and looked great for a long time...especially shawn, he competed against two generations of Bodybuilders at the highest level. Dexter as well and he is among the best IMO, but Dex didn't turn pro until 1998. again, 5 years after the "90's guys"

 By the time Jay had hit his stride, in 2001...Cormier was a 9 year veteran. and he still smoked Cutler at the Arnold, it's common knowledge.

also when jay "finally got to Ronnie".....Ronnie had a torn tricep and lat, and was competing for 15 years...he was done.

Jay is a later generation BBer than the 90's guys...he was a very late 90's- early 2000's guy.  he only competed against them for a few years, when they were all veterans in their late 30's and he was just hitting his absolute prime.


it's Funny because the 2001 version of Jay Cutler would destroy the 2006 version that won the Mr. Olympia...and the 2009 version as well. what does that tell you?

WORD,,,,cutler made big strides and had the size and look needed in his prime...

[arce1988]

  holmes beat an ancient and shot ali

[MCWAY]

None of those guys are considered "legends" of the sport....and were not serious olympia  threats. with the exception of Dillet, and that's based on his ridiculous genetics only...and calling him "bloated" is comical

Can you say 1999 NOC, where he nearly got booed out of the building, after winning the show while being great with child?

Jay's first mr Olympia competition was 1999..... he placed 14th. turned pro in 96 and didn't step onstage for two years

Yet, in two years, he went fro 14th to 2nd and basically stayed there, until he won the title.

Flex,Chris, shawn and Kevin and Ronnie... were already long time veterans  coming to the end of their "prime years".  by the early 2000s when Jay hit his prime...they were on the way out... he's 7 years younger than them.  Most bodybuliders, the vast majority, have a three or four year "window" where they look amazing...then they are never the same and competing on their reputation.  Shawn Ray and chris Cormier are two exceptions actually, and looked great for a long time...especially shawn, he competed against two generations of Bodybuilders at the highest level. Dexter as well and he is among the best IMO, but Dex didn't turn pro until 1998. again, 5 years after the "90's guys"

End of prime years? Coleman wins 6 Olympias in the 2000s; Levrone placed seond twice. Cormier wins 3 Ironman titles (among others). You call that the end of prime years?

 By the time Jay had hit his stride, in 2001...Cormier was a 9 year veteran. and he still smoked Cutler at the Arnold, it's common knowledge.

also when jay "finally got to Ronnie".....Ronnie had a torn tricep and lat, and was competing for 15 years...he was done.

That's Ronnie's problem (BTW, I thought it was nerve damage). Even with that, he was the favorite to win 2006 and surpassed Haney.

Jay is a later generation BBer than the 90's guys...he was a very late 90's- early 2000's guy.  he only competed against them for a few years, when they were all veterans in their late 30's and he was just hitting his absolute prime.

Jay isn't as far removed from Ronnie as you make it sound. It's about 5 years.

Ronnie won six of his eight Sandows in the 2000s. So, you could argue that he's a 2000s bodybuilder, just like Jay. Haney is considered an 80s bodybuilder, even though he won his last two Olympia in the early 90s.

it's Funny because the 2001 version of Jay Cutler would destroy the 2006 version that won the Mr. Olympia...and the 2009 version as well. what does that tell you?

It tells me you need bi-focals. .

If Cutler had that 2009 look in 2001, Coleman would have fallen 5 years earlier, than he did.

[mesmorph78]

brother mcway for me the way to compare these bodybuilders is simpe ....

prime dex vs prime shawn kevin cormier......
has dexter ever in his dreams looked better than cormier 99...... no way....

[MCWAY]

brother mcway for me the way to compare these bodybuilders is simpe ....

prime dex vs prime shawn kevin cormier......
has dexter ever in his dreams looked better than cormier 99...... no way....

I beg to differ. 2008 ASC and 2008 Olympia.

[mesmorph78]

I beg to differ. 2008 ASC and 2008 Olympia.

Well we are gonna have to disagree there because gentetically Cormier already shots all over dexter structure wise so in my book Cormier is superior
And dexter has weakness was Cormier had none

[Papper]

Say what you want but if they equaled in muscle, Cormier is still pretty big next to Jackson.

And isn't Dex missing calves by the way?

[KevinP85]

Funny how no one agrees with mcway, lol. I wonder why?

It's like someone keeps getting owned but comes back for more. 

You are on your own buddy, must be some good debates with your own "iron buddies," at the table and you're the only one no one agrees with.

Here's one, do you think Buster Douglas is a better boxer than Tyson?

[Bevo]

Therefore what.....

It appears you don't read very well. I don't make my statements based SOLELY on titles.

I based them on titles, physiques, and level of competiton. Despite my saying that MULTIPLE TIMES, you keep repeating this foolishness.


In fact, just to show how silly your Branch Warren obsession is, I never claimed that Warren was among the greatest of all times or even better than Cormier.

Jackson and Cutler, on the other hand......

- They've beaten Cormier multiple times
- Won ASCs at his expense
- Placed higher than him at the Olympia
- Gone on to WIN the Oympia

Gee, I wonder why I'd ranked those two above the "Real Deal". 

PLEASE!!! The last thing I do is dodge questions from the likes of you.


I would pick Dex or Jay Cutler particularly Dex's 2005-2008 form or Culter, circa 2006

I bet u are the kind of guy that believes moody is natural and so is Chris faildo cause they told ya so.....

Branch is valid comparison cause going by your nonsense he won the Arnold 2X and Chris hasn't...

Btw , again ray has NEVER lost to dex so therefore ray is better

What u r not gettig is even though levrone and Cormier was placing great obviously don't mean jack cause levrone didn't look good at all in the early 2000's compared to mid late 90's , Cormier up to 2001 or so but 99 was his best, wheeler was long gone... Ray retired....

Take this put ALL of them in their prime yrs and dex and cutler would lose to all of them

[arce1988]

 Chris > Dexter

[The_Punisher]

I was Hesitant to buy ticket to see this show, I was right, I didn't miss anything. these fans deserve better than this. the men's finals used to be the crown jewel of the Arnold's 3 day weekend.....damn, these line up needs improvement...seriously

[old-school-lifter]

Gaspari just stopped responding due to many years of high dosages from a young age. These guys today wouldn't look all that bad if they would just concentrate on plain old anabolics. GH abuse and Slin are the downfall of BB.

add to that IGF 1

[The_Punisher]

 

this is truly Sad....damn, I'm a fan of bodybuilding, but someone has to see  that bodybuilding needs some work man....the dude can't even suck in his abs (or whatever he has there) for a pose...that's how bad things had gotten

[arce1988]

  HUGE GUTS

[jude2]

That really shows how shitty bbing is nowadays.
Look phenominal in the first pic

That shows the difference of genetics with steroids and just a ton of all kinds of drugs to be big.

[MCWAY]

Well we are gonna have to disagree there because gentetically Cormier already shots all over dexter structure wise so in my book Cormier is superior
And dexter has weakness was Cormier had none

Cormier's weakness was his condition, which would explain (in part) why Dex beat him at the Show of Strength and the ASC.

[MCWAY]

this is truly Sad....damn, I'm a fan of bodybuilding, but someone has to see  that bodybuilding needs some work man....the dude can't even suck in his abs (or whatever he has there) for a pose...that's how bad things had gotten

Well, Dorian won two Olympias and Ronnie won at least one with that same belly thing. Dillet won the '99 NOC, being great with child. Either you punish them all or you let it slide.