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Author Topic: "A bodybuilding workout is not an endurance contest."  (Read 17476 times)
Yev33
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2013, 12:10:05 AM »

There was a time in the 60's and 70's when bodybuilders and powerlifters were athletes. As mentioned Franco and Lou competed in WSM. Kaz was setting records in  powerlifting before he dominated WSM. These guys TRAINED rather than just letting the drugs do the work.  Before the monolifts, the bench shirts, and squat suits, they trained to be strong all over because it was just you and the weight. And their physiques reflected that.

It's just sad what has happened to BBing  and PLing over the decades.

Today there are running backs in the NFL under 6ft weighing 225lbs with 40" vertical jumps, low 4's in the 40, benching four plates and squatting 600lbs. I doubt that if they were to do a 5 mile run anyone would be impressed with their times. Yet very few would question their status as world class athletes.
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dj181
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2013, 02:15:46 AM »

from Mike... 38 pounds of LEAN muscle tissue in 4 months

Appoximately two years ago, I met a young man at Gold′s
Gym in Venice, CA, who complained of being a hard gainer. After
3 and a half years of training up to 2 hours a day, six days a
week, he had made little in the way of worthwile progress. He
therefore concluded that he was not genetically predisposed to
build large muscles and was considering giving up training. I
suggested that he not be so hasty and give Heavy Duty high-
intensity training a try. He did.
After 4 months of 3 weekly workouts under my personal
supervision-none of which lasted more than 20 minutes-we sat
down and analyzed his progress. He had increased his reps,
weight or both for a total of four hundred sets. His strength
doubled in some areas and tripled in others and he gained 38
pounds of lean muscle mass.
I emphasize lean muscle mass because his weight gain
was not a mixture of fat and muscle; it was all muscle as
evidenced by the fact that his definition had improved. In
fact, he was able to see his abdominals for the first time
in his life.
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WOOO
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2013, 02:46:05 AM »

There was a time in the 60's and 70's when bodybuilders and powerlifters were athletes. As mentioned Franco and Lou competed in WSM. Kaz was setting records in  powerlifting before he dominated WSM. These guys TRAINED rather than just letting the drugs do the work.  Before the monolifts, the bench shirts, and squat suits, they trained to be strong all over because it was just you and the weight. And their physiques reflected that.

It's just sad what has happened to BBing  and PLing over the decades.

Today there are running backs in the NFL under 6ft weighing 225lbs with 40" vertical jumps, low 4's in the 40, benching four plates and squatting 600lbs. I doubt that if they were to do a 5 mile run anyone would be impressed with their times. Yet very few would question their status as world class athletes.

totally on board with you... functional strength and ability has gone out the window and both events are more like freak shows than anything else now IMO
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2013, 04:53:20 AM »

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey when you say in effect that no one would question if a running back is an athlete?  There are aerobic athletes, anaerobic athletes and then there is a blend of ratios. I'm sure any NFL or Division I running back could post a really good 5 mile time but that time wouldn't impress a real endurance athlete.

I think for a guy who is mainly into looking good through bodybuilding but wants athletic attributes for sport, health and self defense would include some cardio. The way I worked it in when I was going that route was short runs. I would run 1 to 2 miles a couple of times a week. An ideal situation would be sprint intervals. Something like 6 x 800, 8 x 200 meters, or 6 x 400 would be ideal after warm up.

Now my priorities have changed to where I want more endurance and I go for 5 to 3 mile runs. It does compromise maximum strength but I feel leaner with certainly more endurance. If you're into the fight game of either boxing, wrestling or jui jitsu you better emphasize some real endurance training. Anyone who has ever done any fighting will instantly recognize the importance of conditioning. "Gassing" is a real problem when you are in the combat sports.
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Yev33
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2013, 10:10:37 AM »

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey when you say in effect that no one would question if a running back is an athlete?  There are aerobic athletes, anaerobic athletes and then there is a blend of ratios. I'm sure any NFL or Division I running back could post a really good 5 mile time but that time wouldn't impress a real endurance athlete.

I think for a guy who is mainly into looking good through bodybuilding but wants athletic attributes for sport, health and self defense would include some cardio. The way I worked it in when I was going that route was short runs. I would run 1 to 2 miles a couple of times a week. An ideal situation would be sprint intervals. Something like 6 x 800, 8 x 200 meters, or 6 x 400 would be ideal after warm up.

Now my priorities have changed to where I want more endurance and I go for 5 to 3 mile runs. It does compromise maximum strength but I feel leaner with certainly more endurance. If you're into the fight game of either boxing, wrestling or jui jitsu you better emphasize some real endurance training. Anyone who has ever done any fighting will instantly recognize the importance of conditioning. "Gassing" is a real problem when you are in the combat sports.

Completely agree with you. I have had conversations with people who didn't even consider WSM competitors athletes because they can't run long distances. Then when I ask them if they would consider an NFL running back an athlete they say yes. I am not sure exactly what times those guys would be able to post in a 5 mile run, a lot of them probably have nevet ran it before.

It's like you said, different sports require various amounts of endurance.


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WOOO
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2013, 03:46:48 AM »

Completely agree with you. I have had conversations with people who didn't even consider WSM competitors athletes because they can't run long distances. Then when I ask them if they would consider an NFL running back an athlete they say yes. I am not sure exactly what times those guys would be able to post in a 5 mile run, a lot of them probably have nevet ran it before.

It's like you said, different sports require various amounts of endurance.





hmmm

adrian peterson would destroy 5 miles....
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Yev33
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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2013, 10:45:03 AM »


hmmm

adrian peterson would destroy 5 miles....

AP is definitely a freak of freaks and you may be right. But if I had to put my money on him or a decent high school cross country runner, I would go with the high school kid.
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dj181
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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2013, 10:55:43 AM »

AP is definitely a freak of freaks and you may be right. But if I had to put my money on him or a decent high school cross country runner, I would go with the high school kid.

a decent high school cross country runner could easily run 5 miles in under 30 minutes
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Yev33
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2013, 11:31:34 AM »

a decent high school cross country runner could easily run 5 miles in under 30 minutes

That's kind of my point. There a thousands of decent high school cross country athletes in US alone. Adrian Peterson is a world class athlete. That is a HUGE gap.

The things that go into making an elite speed/power athlete are worlds apart than the things that go into making an elite endurance athlete. And in the 60's and 70's the kind of training that the very best powerlifters and bodybuilders did is close (not identical) to the kind of training that the elite speed/power athletes do today. They were athletes,  the rest of the world didn't give them credit for it. But today cheer for those who's training is based off of what those guys knew and were doing decades ago.  

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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2013, 11:51:24 AM »

That's kind of my point. There a thousands of decent high school cross country athletes in US alone. Adrian Peterson is a world class athlete. That is a HUGE gap.

The things that go into making an elite speed/power athlete are worlds apart than the things that go into making an elite endurance athlete. And in the 60's and 70's the kind of training that the very best powerlifters and bodybuilders did is close (not identical) to the kind of training that the elite speed/power athletes do today. They were athletes,  the rest of the world didn't give them credit for it. But today cheer for those who's training is based off of what those guys knew and were doing decades ago.  


You write good Posts. I said this before.
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Viking11
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« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2013, 05:33:00 PM »

Great posts on this thread! I think. Far too drunk to understand any of it. Ok I joke a bit. But.. I don't see why people love 4, 5 sets,  etc..  Rehabbing from surgery, even using light weights - up to no more than 100 lbs in second week of light training for 20 rep sets, I still don't do more than 3 sets.  I just don't see the point. Do 1,2 or maybe 3 including warm up set, then move on to something else.
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2013, 07:34:17 PM »

Great posts on this thread! I think. Far too drunk to understand any of it. Ok I joke a bit. But.. I don't see why people love 4, 5 sets,  etc..  Rehabbing from surgery, even using light weights - up to no more than 100 lbs in second week of light training for 20 rep sets, I still don't do more than 3 sets.  I just don't see the point. Do 1,2 or maybe 3 including warm up set, then move on to something else.
training has alot of variables and all should considered/done,whether its training frequency 'days on/off/sets/reps//execises per bodypart.then changes whether its supersets/tri sets for faster/quicker workouts/pumps.then doing some heavier training with more rest days to recoup and build .main thing is what are you training for an 'event'or personal strenght goal,to a physical physique improvement or combo all 3 spanned over say 6 month period and breaking it up strenght /heavy portion to the faster endurance type training for pump anf then fine tuning the body for a certain look as end result.
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Yev33
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2013, 08:36:50 PM »

You write good Posts. I said this before.

Thank you.
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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2013, 08:19:51 AM »

Thank you.
yeah agree there yev too,,,
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dj181
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2013, 09:25:45 AM »

i'm thinking about adding in some areobic/cardio training into my routine, but i'm not sure how much of it to do/add in?

i'd basically do it for health and a good level of fitness, but not an extreme level of fitness

Dr. Cooper says to do 30 minutes 3 times a week or 20 minutes 4 times per week, but i think that may be too much for me

AJ said that getting the heart rate to a high level ie. 160 bpm and maintaining it at that level for about 10 minutes 2 times per week is all that is required for health and a decent level of fitness, and i think that's about right
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Yev33
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2013, 09:55:34 AM »

yeah agree there yev too,,,
Thanks guys.
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temple_of_dis
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« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2014, 02:04:05 AM »

so break this down to simplicity:

1 set of
rows
leg press
military
chin
dips
bench

3x a week until get big?

then 2x a week?

no warm up set?

no cardio?

right??
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keanu
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« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2014, 07:04:30 AM »

but here's the thing...

"as you get progressively bigger and stronger the key to making even more progress is to train less"



Mike admitted in his later years that this was not true. You would have guys training once every 2 weeks and not making any progress. What were they to do? Train once a month for 15 minutes?
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keanu
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« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2014, 07:21:51 AM »

from Mike... 38 pounds of LEAN muscle tissue in 4 months

Appoximately two years ago, I met a young man at Gold′s
Gym in Venice, CA, who complained of being a hard gainer. After
3 and a half years of training up to 2 hours a day, six days a
week, he had made little in the way of worthwile progress. He
therefore concluded that he was not genetically predisposed to
build large muscles and was considering giving up training. I
suggested that he not be so hasty and give Heavy Duty high-
intensity training a try. He did.
After 4 months of 3 weekly workouts under my personal
supervision-none of which lasted more than 20 minutes-we sat
down and analyzed his progress. He had increased his reps,
weight or both for a total of four hundred sets. His strength
doubled in some areas and tripled in others and he gained 38
pounds of lean muscle mass.
I emphasize lean muscle mass because his weight gain
was not a mixture of fat and muscle; it was all muscle as
evidenced by the fact that his definition had improved. In
fact, he was able to see his abdominals for the first time
in his life.

This is the exact reason why Mentzer was a fraud. The gains he quotes here, nearly 10lbs of muscle per month aren't even possible on a massive stack. No way would you be cutting up while making this weight gain either. Mike was more into marketing. He wanted people to think they could get earth shattering results training an hour a week or less. His last book 'Muscles in Minutes' was targeted at Joe Public who wanted muscles without putting in the years or time. Get your best gains training 15 minutes every 5-7 days he claims.

I never train to failure. I usually stop 2 reps from it. I also go light 2 workouts  for a body part after a heavy one for recovery. According to Mike I would never make any progress, yet I have made great progress in strength and size. I became a Mentzer disciple for many years as his writing was so convincing. I got a little stronger initially but never really progressed.  My joints took a pounding, wasn't getting stronger or bigger and thought I had reached my genetic potential. Then I began learning about strength and conditioning and started gaining again. Following Mike's programs and teachings cost me about 5 years of training progress.Not doing any cardio, and following his calorie is a calorie dieting principles likely impacted health wise.

  The only thing I still take from Mike Mentzer is lowering volume, and monitoring the body for overtraining. For any trainee who is reading Mike's material thinking they have found the answer, beware. There is no pot of Gold at the end of the Mentzer rainbow.
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2018, 10:05:41 AM »

If intensity was the magic bullet we would all be doing 4 sets of 1 rep after warm up on an exercise for every exercise. That's the most intensity anyone can generate. Of course it wouldn't work long term. A bodybuilder's muscle for lack of a better description is built through muscular endurance not pure strength training. In the end how strong can you get if muscle size was determined by purely getting stronger as in one rep strength.  Most guys after less than 5 years of training are relatively the strongest they ever will be in their life. Then it's time to train for muscular endurance. Not to be confused with cardio though volume has a cardio edge.
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2018, 06:45:07 AM »

Mentzer was full of s**t.

He took massive amounts of steroids which was the true reason he built his over-muscled body.

It sucks when you find out Santa Claus isn't real.

Another thing is why do most personal trainers look like stickmen?
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Painlayer69
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« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2018, 01:00:31 PM »

A LOT of Bodybuilders are volume lifters my friend, Its not about heavy lifts and moving on..... Its about putting your muscles through so much hell that they grow bigger/stronger.
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« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2018, 12:43:32 AM »

Mentzer was a Jones devotee but clearly got a little too obsessed with the philosophical idealism side of things, latching onto the principle of what made jones different from everyone else (more intensity, less duration and frequency) and becoming derviative of that until you get to his final product in which Mentzer was advocating as little as one session every 10 or 14 days?

Jones never went that far, in fact the standard AJ "protocol" was a full body training session 3 x a week. Jones after about 20 years of continuous research (I think a lot of people are unaware or don't appreciate the work that came out of the nautilus facility... nobody was, or has, since, devoted as much money to bodybuilding research as Jones did) stated that they found some people got better results out of only twice a week, and some individuals still had to be limited to once a week. Jones was not ignorant of individual variability. Jones was also not ignorant of genetic suitability to tasks, and said something to the effect of "most people involved in the earnest pursuit of bodybuilding are completely wasting their time, deluded into believing they have a hope in hell of competing with the absolute genetic freaks that are placing on stage today"

Mentzer's work is admirable in being one of the few literary treatises on the theory of hypertrophy... its just that his conclusions were self-evidently wrong. HIT in general, however, it must be said, will always get an unfair rap because it is simply hard work. I remember reading the study conducted at west point using Jone's training methods pitted against Dr Cooper's then standard military prescription of long distance jogging and calisthenics. The HIT group ended up making gargantuan improvements in all measures of fitness, including cardiovascular, and blew the cooper group out of the water. That was in the 70s. It was never adopted. Well the army continued in the fashion of lots of jogging and lots of calisthenics up until the 00s when the special operations groups discovered that weight training was reducing their rates of muscular and joint injuries in the field as well as improving their capacity to perform in field conditions. Jones probably wouldve been chortling in the grave, finally vindicated.

Point being: even if something is demonstrably superior, if it is too hard, people will come up with excuses so profoundly complex and contrived you could scarcely believe it.
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2018, 05:05:13 AM »

The West Point study was biased in that Arthur Jones had a say in the protocol. The 1975 test involving Nautilus machines involved athletes as in Army Division I football players. They were involved in other exercise involving football training. The conclusions drawn were not scientific concerning cardio endurance gained from HIT. Too many variables to be controlled. Body weight exercise is incredibly tough and you need endurance. If you disagree with this you have never trained hard with body weight exercises. Seen many a weight guy sucking wind in exhaustion in basic and advanced military training involving body weight and running.
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plebian
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« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2018, 07:18:12 AM »

The West Point study was biased in that Arthur Jones had a say in the protocol. The 1975 test involving Nautilus machines involved athletes as in Army Division I football players. They were involved in other exercise involving football training. The conclusions drawn were not scientific concerning cardio endurance gained from HIT. Too many variables to be controlled. Body weight exercise is incredibly tough and you need endurance. If you disagree with this you have never trained hard with body weight exercises. Seen many a weight guy sucking wind in exhaustion in basic and advanced military training involving body weight and running.

i was a boxer for 10 years. Trust me, I'm familiar. And I still disagree.

There is no sound reasoning behind this belief. The only advantage bodyweight exercises have is they are incredibly cheap, free in fact, requiring little to no equipment.

otherwise it is just a less efficient form of creating resistance against muscular contraction. Indeed many a guy sucking wind from doing pushups and burpees on end. Also many people damn near passing out from doing 20 reps in the squat rack, but are you then going to tell me that such an activity is somehow not taxing the cardiovascular system simply because it involves a loaded barbell? That's completely absurd.

its all one system, muscles, heart, lungs, brain. The only thing needed to turn conventional weight training into an extremely taxing conditioning session is to drop the rest periods.
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