Author Topic: Tennessee atheists win right to distribute literature after schools give Bibles  (Read 90265 times)

OzmO

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Are you aware of the heavy (some might say oppressive) influence of fundamentalist christians in the military ?

Yes.

However,  I wouldn't  characterize it as oppressive influence as you have in your question although I have no doubt there have been instances of abuses, favoritism, unfair treatment, etc...Of which having chaplain available to counsel men of faith who are troubled and or willing to die for our country has anything to with it.

Frankly to even consider removing chaplains from service is retarded, ignorant and naive. 

Straw Man

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Yes.

However,  I wouldn't  characterize it as oppressive influence as you have in your question although I have no doubt there have been instances of abuses, favoritism, unfair treatment, etc...Of which having chaplain available to counsel men of faith who are troubled and or willing to die for our country has anything to with it.

Frankly to even consider removing chaplains from service is retarded, ignorant and naive. 

I can give you some well publicized examples of harassment that seem pretty oppressive but let's not get hung up on semantics

If you agree that there is a heavy influence by christians then why shouldn't atheist solders have access to an atheist "advisor" of sorts


OzmO

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I can give you some well publicized examples of harassment that seem pretty oppressive but let's not get hung up on semantics

If you agree that there is a heavy influence by christians then why shouldn't atheist solders have access to an atheist "advisor" of sorts



Like I said, I am sure there are plenty of instances both publicized and unreported.  And it should be dealt with.   

Advise atheists for what?  To continue not to believe in God?   Seems silly.  If a person is troubled they typically go to a therapist, if they don't want to see a chaplain.

Straw Man

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Like I said, I am sure there are plenty of instances both publicized and unreported.  And it should be dealt with.   

Advise atheists for what?  To continue not to believe in God?   Seems silly.  If a person is troubled they typically go to a therapist, if they don't want to see a chaplain.

seems silly to you but maybe not to them

What if the therapist available to them is someone who is also a fundie ?

I just don't see what the big deal is with giving them an atheist equivalent of someone to talk to if they feel they need it

What's it to you ?

avxo

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An atheist chaplain is definitely silly.  And as Ozmo pointed out, if they need counseling and don't want to use a Christian (et al.) chaplain, they can go to a therapist.  Plenty of those available to Soldiers.  All those irrational atheists are doing is solidifying the fact that their radical non-belief in something that doesn't exist is actually a religion.

Although I think their attempt to get an atheist chaplain sounds silly, I don't think it's necessarily without merit in that it is meant* to call attention to the issue of chaplains in the military by, essentially asking the question, "are they needed?" If therapists are good enough for atheists - which you suggested is the case - why aren't they good enough for theists?

You can argue that religious soldiers who are deployed in a war zone don't have easy access to a house of worship, and providing them with someone to oversee their "spiritual" needs is important. I agree that's a consideration and an important one, and this is the reason why chaplains (in the U.S. at least) are supposed to work with people of all faiths (or no faith at all even). But then, can a chaplain that is an ordained minister in some faith properly serve the spiritual needs of someone who believes in something other than X, and which may, very well, be dogmatically opposed to X? And if they can, then why should you be opposed to any kind of chaplain at all?

* This is an assumption; it may be wrong, but for the purposes of this argument, I am assuming that it isn't.


I have no comment about that flying spaghetti monster foolishness.  It's too stupid.

You say you don't have a comment, but then you proceed to comment. You also attempt to avoid an issue that undercuts your position by claim it's foolish and dismissing it outright. I have news for you: Your personal evaluation of the merits of Pastafarianism, or any other religion apart from Christianity, is irrelevant. To a non-Christian, the concept of a triune god - the core of your beliefs - might be about as stupid and foolish - or perhaps more - than the concept of a floating mass of spaghetti.

With all that in mind, do you really want religions to be evaluated by what those who don't believe in them think about them? I'm cool with that, but you may not like the end result of that.


Regarding which religions or viewpoints get military chaplains, we've had chaplains in the military since the inception of the country.  I'm unsure how they were  originally selected, but it was probably based on the fact most "religious" Soldiers were Christian.  Today, we have protestant, Catholic, Jewish, etc. chaplains.  If there is a sizable enough population of Soldiers of a particular faith to warrant a chaplain, then I don't have a problem putting one on the payroll.  I assume that's how they are selected, but I don't know.

So, let me make sure I understand: if enough soldiers want with a Pastafarian chaplain, you're OK with having a Pastafarian chaplain? Or with a Jedi chaplain, if there enough Jedi soldiers? Right? After all, you didn't make it about beliefs. You made it about "enough population of Soldiers".


I'm unaware of this being a problem, except for a handful of vocal irrational atheist activists.

I don't necessarily think it's a problem either, nor am I opposed to military chaplains, despite being an atheist. What I do find interesting, however, is your visceral reaction to the proposal.

OzmO

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seems silly to you but maybe not to them

What if the therapist available to them is someone who is also a fundie ?

I just don't see what the big deal is with giving them an atheist equivalent of someone to talk to if they feel they need it

What's it to you ?

If the therapist is a "real" therapist they won't allow their faith to influence their profession.  They can also request a different therapist or seek one outside the military. 

I am not going to March on Washington if they do, but I think it's a waste.   

Straw were you ever a religious person?  Did you ever seek counsel from a religious person like a pastor or priest?   I was.  They give you faith\religious based advice to solve your problems.  Therapists do the same thing except they exclude the religious aspect of it. 

Dos Equis

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Although I think their attempt to get an atheist chaplain sounds silly, I don't think it's necessarily without merit in that it is meant* to call attention to the issue of chaplains in the military by, essentially asking the question, "are they needed?" If therapists are good enough for atheists - which you suggested is the case - why aren't they good enough for theists?

You can argue that religious soldiers who are deployed in a war zone don't have easy access to a house of worship, and providing them with someone to oversee their "spiritual" needs is important. I agree that's a consideration and an important one, and this is the reason why chaplains (in the U.S. at least) are supposed to work with people of all faiths (or no faith at all even). But then, can a chaplain that is an ordained minister in some faith properly serve the spiritual needs of someone who believes in something other than X, and which may, very well, be dogmatically opposed to X? And if they can, then why should you be opposed to any kind of chaplain at all?

* This is an assumption; it may be wrong, but for the purposes of this argument, I am assuming that it isn't.


You say you don't have a comment, but then you proceed to comment. You also attempt to avoid an issue that undercuts your position by claim it's foolish and dismissing it outright. I have news for you: Your personal evaluation of the merits of Pastafarianism, or any other religion apart from Christianity, is irrelevant. To a non-Christian, the concept of a triune god - the core of your beliefs - might be about as stupid and foolish - or perhaps more - than the concept of a floating mass of spaghetti.

With all that in mind, do you really want religions to be evaluated by what those who don't believe in them think about them? I'm cool with that, but you may not like the end result of that.


So, let me make sure I understand: if enough soldiers want with a Pastafarian chaplain, you're OK with having a Pastafarian chaplain? Or with a Jedi chaplain, if there enough Jedi soldiers? Right? After all, you didn't make it about beliefs. You made it about "enough population of Soldiers".


I don't necessarily think it's a problem either, nor am I opposed to military chaplains, despite being an atheist. What I do find interesting, however, is your visceral reaction to the proposal.

Chaplains serve the needs of people of faith.  People of faith actually believe in something (usually God). 

Atheists define their label based on the absence of a belief in God.  There is no faith-based need for an atheist chaplain, unless atheism is actually a religion (which is what I believe).  Now that I think about it, given the atheist churches, organization, meetings, conferences, literature, books, etc., maybe they do need a chaplain for their religion?   

Chaplains don’t just meet with people of their own faith.  They often meet with Soldiers of different faiths. 

I didn’t comment on the flying spaghetti monster foolishness except to call it foolish and stupid.  It’s foolish and stupid.  There, I commented on it again. 

Visceral reaction?  lol.  That’s pretty funny.  All I’ve done is talk about how irrational this whole thing is. 

avxo

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Atheists define their label based on the absence of a belief in God.

No, we typically define ourselves by an absence of belief in deities. There's a difference.


There is no faith-based need for an atheist chaplain, unless atheism is actually a religion (which is what I believe).  Now that I think about it, given the atheist churches, organization, meetings, conferences, literature, books, etc., maybe they do need a chaplain for their religion?

Atheist churches? Man, you had to go and ruin it for me. Now I won't be able to sleep-in on Sundays! As for the rest - "meetings, conferences, literature, books, etc." you may as well argue that mathematicians (or dentists, or electrical engineers, or just about any other group of professionals) are part of a religion - we've got meetings, conferences, literature, books, etc.


Chaplains don’t just meet with people of their own faith.  They often meet with Soldiers of different faiths.

Right, so then an interesting question is: is religious faith required for a Chaplain to do his job?


I didn’t comment on the flying spaghetti monster foolishness except to call it foolish and stupid.  It’s foolish and stupid.  There, I commented on it again.

It's at least as foolish and stupid as your beliefs: one entity that is three entities creates everything (because everything except the entity needs a beginning), gets upset because things don't go as planned, brands us sinners, decrees that the wages of sin is death and throws us out of Paradise. Then later, he decides he loves us, so he wants us to come back, so he sacrifices himself to himself to satisfy the penalty that he has previously imposed on sinners... yeah, the Christian myth is so much more rational than Pastafarianism - it's a veritable tour de force of rationality Christianity, yes it is. ::)


Visceral reaction?  lol.  That’s pretty funny.  All I’ve done is talk about how irrational this whole thing is.

That your reaction is "X is irrational" doesn't preclude it from being visceral.

loco

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so you choose to continue to ask the same question even though I've answered it and continue to ignore and refuse to answer the very simple question that I've asked you about ten times now

I didn't see that coming





Why are you still talking to me in this thread?  You've already stated, twice, that it's both pointless and a waste of your time to do so.

That's irrational.  You are as mentally ill as you say that I am.  You are more mentally ill than you say Soul Crusher is.

I'm sure Beach Bum is flattered that you, of all people, are going out of your way to prove him right about irrational atheists.

Straw Man

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Why are you still talking to me in this thread?  You've already stated, twice, that it's both pointless and a waste of your time to do so.

That's irrational.  You are as mentally ill as you say that I am.  You are more mentally ill than you say Soul Crusher is.

I'm sure Beach Bum is flattered that you, of all people, are going out of your way to prove him right about irrational atheists.

LOL

repeatedly asking me the same question and then ignoring my answer is a great way to prove how sane you are


Soul Crusher

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LOL

repeatedly asking me the same question and then ignoring my answer is a great way to prove how sane you are



Thank God you have found someone new to stalk. 

Straw Man

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Thank God you have found someone new to stalk. 

says the mentally ill, bald headed dwarf who literally begs me (and others) to reply to his posts and then cries about it


loco

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says the mentally ill, bald headed dwarf who literally begs me (and others) to reply to his posts and then cries about it

pot meet kettle

Dos Equis

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No, we typically define ourselves by an absence of belief in deities. There's a difference.


Atheist churches? Man, you had to go and ruin it for me. Now I won't be able to sleep-in on Sundays! As for the rest - "meetings, conferences, literature, books, etc." you may as well argue that mathematicians (or dentists, or electrical engineers, or just about any other group of professionals) are part of a religion - we've got meetings, conferences, literature, books, etc.


Right, so then an interesting question is: is religious faith required for a Chaplain to do his job?


It's at least as foolish and stupid as your beliefs: one entity that is three entities creates everything (because everything except the entity needs a beginning), gets upset because things don't go as planned, brands us sinners, decrees that the wages of sin is death and throws us out of Paradise. Then later, he decides he loves us, so he wants us to come back, so he sacrifices himself to himself to satisfy the penalty that he has previously imposed on sinners... yeah, the Christian myth is so much more rational than Pastafarianism - it's a veritable tour de force of rationality Christianity, yes it is. ::)


That your reaction is "X is irrational" doesn't preclude it from being visceral.

That's a distinction without a difference.  You define yourself based on the non-belief in deities, which in America mostly means "God."  That's who paranoid anti-religious extremists are usually crying about.  

When dentists, electrical engineers, etc. form "humanist centers" (i.e., churches), do exactly what activist, proselytizing atheists do, then yes we can call them part of a religion too.  But of course that doesn't happen.  

Yes, a chaplain should be a person of faith, because nearly all of the people consulting with chaplains are people of faith.  My understanding is military chaplains must have credentials issued by a particular faith, which isn't any different than requiring doctors or any other professional to have a license.    

I'm not sure you understand what the word visceral means.  Or if you do, you're misusing the word, at least in this discussion.  

Straw Man

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pot meet kettle

makes no sense

Do I start threads with titles like this (where I name you ?)

Where is 240, Obama, Jesse, Andre, Straw etc on this? Answer? nowhere   
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=484852.0

The answer is no



avxo

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That's a distinction without a difference.  You define yourself based on the non-belief in deities, which in America mostly means "God."  That's who paranoid anti-religious extremists are usually crying about.

It's a distinction with plenty of difference. If not believing in the Christian God qualifies one as an atheist, then Muslims are atheists, Hindi are atheists, etc. Yet clearly none of them are. So the distinction between your botched definition and the one I provided is huge.


When dentists, electrical engineers, etc. form "humanist centers" (i.e., churches), do exactly what activist, proselytizing atheists do, then yes we can call them part of a religion too.  But of course that doesn't happen.

But they do form clubs. Look at the ACM - the Association of Computing Machinery - for example. It tries to promote computer science and has an outreach program to help get youth interested in computer science. It publishes papers, books and articles, holds meetings and conventions. So by your own "definition" - such as it is - you ought to call them a church.

Do you see now why accuracy matters in definitions and why the bullshit you pull out of who-knows-where isn't suitable for much except for flushing down the toilet?


Yes, a chaplain should be a person of faith, because nearly all of the people consulting with chaplains are people of faith.

You treat all faiths interchangeably. If you think that's the case, why do you not worship your God in a Mosque, go listen to a Rabbi, and pilgrimage in a Buddhist monastery? Exactly because you don't think faith is interchangeable.


My understanding is military chaplains must have credentials issued by a particular faith, which isn't any different than requiring doctors or any other professional to have a license.

So do you believe that anyone with credentials ordaining them a minister of a particular faith can be a military chaplain? Becoming an ordained minister is trivial, and the ordination has legal recognition by the state (e.g. spend five minutes online and you have the ability to perform weddings).

Are you okay with an ordained Universal Life Church minister becoming a chaplain? What about an ordained Church of the Subgenius minister? Are you going to go with the "this shit ain't a serious religion" bullshit again? And do you really want the government deciding what religion is and isn't serious? It may be to your advantage today, but there's always tomorrow, and if the tides where to turn, you might find some future Beach Bum telling you your particular brand of bullshit doesn't qualify.


I'm not sure you understand what the word visceral means.  Or if you do, you're misusing the word, at least in this discussion.  

I think that the way you've been arguing about this issue ("this other thing that's the same as my religion with changed names isn't a religion. It just isn't. Wah! Wah! Wah!") proves whether your reaction is visceral or not.

Dos Equis

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It's a distinction with plenty of difference. If not believing in the Christian God qualifies one as an atheist, then Muslims are atheists, Hindi are atheists, etc. Yet clearly none of them are. So the distinction between your botched definition and the one I provided is huge.


But they do form clubs. Look at the ACM - the Association of Computing Machinery - for example. It tries to promote computer science and has an outreach program to help get youth interested in computer science. It publishes papers, books and articles, holds meetings and conventions. So by your own "definition" - such as it is - you ought to call them a church.

Do you see now why accuracy matters in definitions and why the bullshit you pull out of who-knows-where isn't suitable for much except for flushing down the toilet?


You treat all faiths interchangeably. If you think that's the case, why do you not worship your God in a Mosque, go listen to a Rabbi, and pilgrimage in a Buddhist monastery? Exactly because you don't think faith is interchangeable.


So do you believe that anyone with credentials ordaining them a minister of a particular faith can be a military chaplain? Becoming an ordained minister is trivial, and the ordination has legal recognition by the state (e.g. spend five minutes online and you have the ability to perform weddings).

Are you okay with an ordained Universal Life Church minister becoming a chaplain? What about an ordained Church of the Subgenius minister? Are you going to go with the "this shit ain't a serious religion" bullshit again? And do you really want the government deciding what religion is and isn't serious? It may be to your advantage today, but there's always tomorrow, and if the tides where to turn, you might find some future Beach Bum telling you your particular brand of bullshit doesn't qualify.


I think that the way you've been arguing about this issue ("this other thing that's the same as my religion with changed names isn't a religion. It just isn't. Wah! Wah! Wah!") proves whether your reaction is visceral or not.

The fact atheists define themselves based on the non-belief in deists, but the primary deist they cry about is God, means there really isn't any difference between "God" and deists in this context. 

Does the Association of Computing Machinery meet at a church every week, sing from hymnals, have Sunday School, and run around the country filing lawsuits claiming they have suffered emotional distress because they had to look at a Christian symbol on government property? 

Yes, I see how accuracy matters, because the answer to that question is "no."  So your absurd hypothetical is . . . absurd. 

Where did I say I treat all faiths interchangeably? 

Regarding credentialing, what I said is the military requires licenses. 

The government already decides which religions are "serious."  The only protected faith is a "sincerely held religious belief," which requires an examination of whether the religion is "serious."  And not every sincerely held religious belief is entitled to protection.   

I'm not looking up whatever other crap you posted about some spaghetti monster or whatever the heck else you posted.  The issue is whether atheists deserve a military chaplain, not whether some nonexistent comedic concoction deserves a military chaplain. 

No, you clearly don't know what the word visceral means.  But no biggie.  People often use words out of context to mean whatever they want them to mean. 

Straw Man

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The fact atheists define themselves based on the non-belief in deists, but the primary deist they cry about is God, means there really isn't any difference between "God" and deists in this context. 

Does the Association of Computing Machinery meet at a church every week, sing from hymnals, have Sunday School, and run around the country filing lawsuits claiming they have suffered emotional distress because they had to look at a Christian symbol on government property? 

Yes, I see how accuracy matters, because the answer to that question is "no."  So your absurd hypothetical is . . . absurd. 

Where did I say I treat all faiths interchangeably? 

Regarding credentialing, what I said is the military requires licenses. 

The government already decides which religions are "serious."  The only protected faith is a "sincerely held religious belief," which requires an examination of whether the religion is "serious."  And not every sincerely held religious belief is entitled to protection.   

I'm not looking up whatever other crap you posted about some spaghetti monster or whatever the heck else you posted.  The issue is whether atheists deserve a military chaplain, not whether some nonexistent comedic concoction deserves a military chaplain. 

No, you clearly don't know what the word visceral means.  But no biggie.  People often use words out of context to mean whatever they want them to mean. 


You clearly don't know what the word deist means

avxo

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The fact atheists define themselves based on the non-belief in deists, but the primary deist they cry about is God, means there really isn't any difference between "God" and deists in this context.

Uhm... You may want to look up the term deist in a dictionary. For someone who was claiming I was misusing a term in his past message, this misuse is comedic gold.


Does the Association of Computing Machinery meet at a church every week, sing from hymnals, have Sunday School, and run around the country filing lawsuits claiming they have suffered emotional distress because they had to look at a Christian symbol on government property?

Plenty of religions don't meet in Churches, don't meet on Sundays, don't sing from hymnals, don't have Sunday school. If all that is a prerequisite to being a religion, that's news to a whole lot of religious people.

The issue of Christian symbols on government property is an interesting one and we can discuss it if your like, but it seems to be slightly off-topic for this thread.


Yes, I see how accuracy matters, because the answer to that question is "no."  So your absurd hypothetical is . . . absurd.

I'm just going by what you said. You quoted things which, you implied, make atheism a religion. Don't blame me that they ended up stupid.


Where did I say I treat all faiths interchangeably?

You implied that a chaplain can work with people of any faith (and yes, chaplains typically work with people of any faith, even no faith at all) by virtue of having faith, whereas an atheist cannot. That effectively equates all faiths and suggests the differences between them are just superficial.

Regarding credentialing, what I said is the military requires licenses.

Well, not exactly licenses but let's not ding you too many points since you're not a lawyer. But if a license is all that's needed, I can become an ordained minister in five minutes... and that's recognized not only by the State I live in but by all other States as well.


The government already decides which religions are "serious."  The only protected faith is a "sincerely held religious belief," which requires an examination of whether the religion is "serious."  And not every sincerely held religious belief is entitled to protection.

The Supreme Court has never defined the term "religion" - much less the term "serious one" so you're talking out of the wrong orifice again. But the Goverment doesn't decide whether a religion is serious or not. You may find Kaufman v. McCaughtry interesting which held that, in the context of the First Amendment religion need not be based on a mainstream faith or a belief in a Supreme Being, but instead “when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of ‘ultimate concern’ that for her occupy a ‘place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons,’ those beliefs represent her religion”.

The question is whether a person sincerely holds the beliefs he holds. No further evaluation is made, no critical analysis of the religion in question, no value-judgement by some government bureaucrat about whether this is or isn't a religion.

To be sure, governments have refused to recognize particular practices as legitimate exercises of religion, but they almost always fail in Court. As an example, I'll point to cases where local governments have prosecuted people who practice animal sacrifice as required by Santeria for violating local ordinances. They have, invariably, lost and have often been slapped pretty hard by Courts. Look up "Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah" if you want some background.

I'm not looking up whatever other crap you posted about some spaghetti monster or whatever the heck else you posted.

Of course you aren't. You aren't interested in educating yourself or having a legitimate debate. Just venting and attacking those who don't believe the same things that you believe. That's why I called your reaction visceral.


The issue is whether atheists deserve a military chaplain, not whether some nonexistent comedic concoction deserves a military chaplain.

Again, it's a religion and meets all the requirements you set. But I digress... The question re: chaplains boils down to something very simple. Do chaplains serve a need in the armed forces? If so, what need is that? I submit that they do and it's more than just delivering sermons. I also submit that the need they fill isn't a need that only religious people have.

If your objection is with the name, well... you may as well object that we use terms like "cavalry" or "get on the horn".

If your objection is with the concept, then I'm curious what grounds you have for arguing against this seeing how you consider atheism to be a religion.


No, you clearly don't know what the word visceral means.  But no biggie.  People often use words out of context to mean whatever they want them to mean.

Like this buffoon earlier, using the word "deists" completely wrong? That you fail to see why the word applies doesn't change the fact that it does. Your reaction is not rational; it's emotional and raw. In your post you throw hissy-fits and refuse to consider - much less answer - questions that challenge your beliefs and you get upset that they're even asked.

Dos Equis

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Ah the personal insults.  And you were doing so well.  Must have been about three or four posts in a row without them.  Big improvement.   :)

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Ah the personal insults.  And you were doing so well.  Must have been about three or four posts in a row without them.  Big improvement.   :)

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult - it's stating facts. If you try to engage in debate, but act like a child, refusing to address the issues that others raise and repeating the same thing ad infinitum don't be surprised when you're called out.

Speaking of which, I notice you didn't address a single point I made in my post...

Dos Equis

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Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult - it's stating facts. If you try to engage in debate, but act like a child, refusing to address the issues that others raise and repeating the EP same thing ad infinitum don't be surprised when you're called out.

Speaking of which, I notice you didn't address a single point I made in my post...

If you engage me like a grown up, I have no problem responding.  If you resort to your oft-used personal insults when you are challenged, I'll probably ignore you.  Unless I'm bored. 

Only caveat is your posts are too long.  So, if you have something you want me to address state it succinctly like a mature adult.  I know you can do it.   :)

avxo

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If you engage me like a grown up, I have no problem responding.  If you resort to your oft-used personal insults when you are challenged, I'll probably ignore you.  Unless I'm bored.

Oft-used? What a joke...


Only caveat is your posts are too long.  So, if you have something you want me to address state it succinctly like a mature adult.  I know you can do it.   :)

I'm not going to attempt to summarize things for you because you can't be bothered to read. If you don't feel like reading, don't respond. But don't pretend that you won the debate when you are, in fact, abandoning it.

Straw Man

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Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult - it's stating facts. If you try to engage in debate, but act like a child, refusing to address the issues that others raise and repeating the same thing ad infinitum don't be surprised when you're called out.

Speaking of which, I notice you didn't address a single point I made in my post...

OMG - you called him a buffoon

This is classic Bum.  He can't refute your arguments so he will pretend to be insulted to avoid having to continue getting his ass handed to him

Skeletor

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This is classic Bum.  He can't refute your arguments so he will pretend to be insulted to avoid having to continue getting his ass handed to him

Haha, his classic MO.