Ferguson - Rioting for Michael Brown - Discussion

[LittleJ]

I've never seen a burning cross in my life as far as I lived

I have

[mr.turbo]

Once Ferguson tallies the costs of either fighting the DOJ allegations or adopting reforms the department will require, it may decide the best choice would be to get rid of the police department and hire another agency to police the town.

"My guess is it's going to be so expensive to the city of Ferguson, they're going to have to make a survival decision,” Tim Fitch, the former head of the St. Louis County Police Department, said in a recent interview with The Huffington Post. "Financially, I don't believe they're going to be able to do one of two things: Either they're going to fight it, and not be able to afford that, or to implement all of the changes that DOJ is going to require is going to be so expensive, they're not going to be able to do it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/03/doj-ferguson-police-cost_n_6793310.html

[Archer77]

Once Ferguson tallies the costs of either fighting the DOJ allegations or adopting reforms the department will require, it may decide the best choice would be to get rid of the police department and hire another agency to police the town.

"My guess is it's going to be so expensive to the city of Ferguson, they're going to have to make a survival decision,” Tim Fitch, the former head of the St. Louis County Police Department, said in a recent interview with The Huffington Post. "Financially, I don't believe they're going to be able to do one of two things: Either they're going to fight it, and not be able to afford that, or to implement all of the changes that DOJ is going to require is going to be so expensive, they're not going to be able to do it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/03/doj-ferguson-police-cost_n_6793310.html

Holder couldnt get his way so he decided to punish Ferguson by other means. 

[mr.turbo]

Holder couldnt get his way so he decided to punish Ferguson by other means.  

This is a result of the way the whole shooting affair was bungled. The locals totally misjudged the seriousness of it. Obama/Holder are in legacy mode so they can take on these projects then leave town. They appear to be working toward some sort of reform model.  

[Archer77]

They're scumbags but those emails could be found in the inboxes of literally every city politician in the US

Move along... the rabid Brown animal was put down by officer wilson , the other animals burned their zoo and there's nothing left to gain from whitey here

The intention of publishing the emails in the report was to insight outrage.  The limited statistics in the report are identical  to every other majority black city in the country.  The conclusions of the report were generated to justify policy changes Holder always wanted to implement.  Holder and the DOJ pulled a similar stunt with a report on school discipline. I actually predicted this  in another thread.  

When you can't get people to stop committing crime you try to change the rules by forcing the police to not police thereby artificially reducing crime rates or more accurately the appearance crime had decreased.

[mr.turbo]

The extent of these policy changes seem to be limited to enforcing compliance with the US constitution and decades old civil legislation.

Continue to ignore the facts and popular sentiment (and I'm sure some of us will)....everyone agrees this is the status quo for small towns...and this will turn into a much, much bigger problem.

[Archer77]

The extent of these policy changes seem to be limited to enforcing compliance with the US constitution and decades old civil legislation.

Continue to ignore the facts and popular sentiment (and I'm sure some of us will)....everyone agrees this is the status quo for small towns...and this will turn into a much, much bigger problem.

The implications are much broader than this.

[hardgainerj]

Why do Asians and even a lot of Hispanics never complain?

Having grown up in california lots of Asians in the area, yet they make up the smallest minorities in the US but they pride themselves in education and hard work. Lots end up being doctors, business owners, and have one of the highest incomes in the US

The Vietnamese people came over with nothing in the 70's during the war and managed to be successful, same with others

it all comes to down to culture

[mr.turbo]

The implications are much broader than this.

not aware of this agenda but curious to learn more about it.

[Archer77]

not aware of this agenda but curious to learn more about it.

The agenda was to interpret a limited data set in a way that was guaranteed to find the bias that was necessary to justify implementing new programs. Looking at the data from the report further I noticed the DOJ only used a sample size of the last three years. I looked at the MUCRP site for Ferguson going back as far as 2001 and found the statistics were almost identical. Then I compared those numbers to the numbers from the City of St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department Annual Report to the Community and found they were also just about identical.  The consistency also applies to the rates of violent crime.

The stats from Ferguson are consistent with and damn near identical to black crime stats from St. Louis and surrounding areas. The only logical interpretation is there is no bias in Ferguson.  The alternative is to believe that multiple police departs are working together to falsify nearly identical stats


Another interesting finding is that as the white tax base who funded the police department fled Ferguson it became necessary for the police department to generate revenue by other means.  It was public housing and the crime it brought that drove whites out.

MPDARC: http://www.slmpd.org/press_room.shtml
MUCRP: http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/data_and_statistics_ucr_query_backup.html

[Natural Man]

Slavery has been over in the USA, not Africa, for 150 years. Slavery was an equal opportunity system. There were white slaves, black slaves, and native Indian slaves. There were also black slave owners, white slave owners, and native Indian slave owners. That's the story of human history, before the industrial revolution, that eliminated the need for manual labor, and started putting machines to work, instead of human labor. So slavery, in modern countries became obsolete, and instead of paying for the care and feeding of slaves, labor was allow to compete for jobs, and become wage slaves, earning in many cases, much less than what was required for their care and feeding. Some, of every race, prospered, based on their intelligence and abilities. Many, lacking in quality abilities fell behind economically. They couldn't compete successfully, because of their genetic inferiority. Nothing new under the Sun.

Exactly, in other words humans are animals who prey on each other weaknesses just like alphas prey on betas in all other animal species.

[The Wizard of Truth]

Still arguing over this piece of shit?

[polychronopolous]

Michael Brown’s Family to File Civil Lawsuit Against Ferguson PD and Darren Wilson



Michael Brown‘s family announced today that they would pursue civil charges against the Ferguson Police Department and Officer Darren Wilson after a report from the Department of Justice released a report accusing the department of systematic racism and abuses of power.

Along with the report, released yesterday, the DOJ also announced that they would not press federal criminal charges against Wilson, the man who shot Brown, saying there was not enough evidence to disprove his claim that he was acting in self-defense.

“While we are saddened by this decision, we are encouraged that the DOJ will hold the Ferguson Police Department accountable for the pattern of racial bias and profiling they found in their handling of interactions with people of color,” Brown’s parents said in a statement yesterday, via the Washington Post. “It is our hope that through this action, true change will come not only in Ferguson, but around the country. If that change happens, our son’s death will not have been in vain.”

An attorney for Brown’s family told the Post that they were “officially in the process of formulating a civil case that we anticipate will be filed shortly on behalf of the family.” Wilson will also be named in the suit, according to Fox News.

Yesterday’s 100-page report detailed stunning abuses by the Ferguson police department, who, under the pressure of the municipal court system to boost revenue, regularly showed a bias against African-American residents of Ferguson.

[Erik C]

Michael Brown’s Family to File Civil Lawsuit Against Ferguson PD and Darren Wilson



Michael Brown‘s family announced today that they would pursue civil charges against the Ferguson Police Department and Officer Darren Wilson after a report from the Department of Justice released a report accusing the department of systematic racism and abuses of power.

Along with the report, released yesterday, the DOJ also announced that they would not press federal criminal charges against Wilson, the man who shot Brown, saying there was not enough evidence to disprove his claim that he was acting in self-defense.

“While we are saddened by this decision, we are encouraged that the DOJ will hold the Ferguson Police Department accountable for the pattern of racial bias and profiling they found in their handling of interactions with people of color,” Brown’s parents said in a statement yesterday, via the Washington Post. “It is our hope that through this action, true change will come not only in Ferguson, but around the country. If that change happens, our son’s death will not have been in vain.”

An attorney for Brown’s family told the Post that they were “officially in the process of formulating a civil case that we anticipate will be filed shortly on behalf of the family.” Wilson will also be named in the suit, according to Fox News.

Yesterday’s 100-page report detailed stunning abuses by the Ferguson police department, who, under the pressure of the municipal court system to boost revenue, regularly showed a bias against African-American residents of Ferguson.

Seems Mike Brown's family thinks, that now that he is dead, that he will finally be worth something to his family.

[mr.turbo]

The agenda was to interpret a limited data set in a way that was guaranteed to find the bias that was necessary to justify implementing new programs. Looking at the data from the report further I noticed the DOJ only used a sample size of the last three years. I looked at the MUCRP site for Ferguson going back as far as 2001 and found the statistics were almost identical. Then I compared those numbers to the numbers from the City of St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department Annual Report to the Community and found they were also just about identical.  The consistency also applies to the rates of violent crime.

The stats from Ferguson are consistent with and damn near identical to black crime stats from St. Louis and surrounding areas. The only logical interpretation is there is no bias in Ferguson.  The alternative is to believe that multiple police departs are working together to falsify nearly identical stats


Another interesting finding is that as the white tax base who funded the police department fled Ferguson it became necessary for the police department to generate revenue by other means.  It was public housing and the crime it brought that drove whites out.

MPDARC: http://www.slmpd.org/press_room.shtml
MUCRP: http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/data_and_statistics_ucr_query_backup.html

I think you need better evidence to support the assertion; that the conclusions of bias were cooked up inappropriately out of this data. If you can establish that successfully then the contextual information becomes relevant. Without that, the data you're mentioning just amplifies the rationale behind report as it stands.

[Archer77]

I think you need better evidence to support the assertion that the conclusions of bias were cooked up inappropriately out of this data. If you can establish that successfully then the contextual information becomes relevant. Without that, the data you're mentioning just amplifies the rationale behind report as it stands.

I never said they were cooked up. I said the data was interpreted ideologically.  It only amplifies the rationale if you believe there is a conspiracy across multiple police departments to produce identical numbers.  Do you believe that?  

Another interesting thing is that as the white population decreases overall crime goes up but many of the violent crime statistics stay the same. The consistency among Ferguson and the other cities is remarkable.  

[TestDummy]

these emails may not impress getbiggers but the consequences are very serious from a legal perspective.

The officers who wrote the emails should be punished, but they still had nothing to do with the officer who did the shooting.

[Archer77]

The officers who wrote the emails should be punished, but they still had nothing to do with the officer who did the shooting.

Guilt by association.  The implication is that there is a culture of discrimination.  Once you establish this view whatever is filtered through that premise  comes out the other end as having a racist cause.  It's a fun game of mental self-deception.   If I am a Christian and believe everything is god's plan any event I witness or experience will be interpreted as a sign of god acting on my life.

[mr.turbo]

I never said they were cooked up. I said the data was interpreted ideologically.  It only amplifies the rationale if you believe there is a conspiracy across multiple police departments to produce identical numbers.  Do you believe that?  

Another interesting thing is that as the white population decreases overall crime goes up but many of the violent crime statistics stay the same. The consistency among Ferguson and the other cities is remarkable.   

I understand what you're saying which is that the numbers scale up.

If you want to understand what raw data means you need to organise it conceptually. You can call it ideological or something else. What matters is whether the conclusions are appropriate and reasonable.

If there's some impropriety with the interpretation then we need to understand what that is exactly. Not clear on this.  

[Archer77]

I understand what you're saying which is that the numbers scale up.

If you want to understand what raw data means you need to organise it conceptually. You can call it ideological or something else. What matters is whether the conclusions are appropriate and reasonable.

If there's some impropriety with the interpretation then we need to understand what that is exactly. Not clear on this.  

What matters is that the conclusions are accurate. The mistake is to take data and filter it through your ideological and political framework. If you believe there is bias and are determined to find it, you will find it.  

As I mentioned above, if I were a Christian and I believed that God had a plan for me I would interpret all my experiences as a sign of God interceding in my life.  From the context of my world view the conclusion that god was sending me a sign would be reasonable and accurate.

It's not so much a matter of impropriety as it is an example of finding what you're looking for.  This is exactly what happened when the DOJ released a report about school discipline. They assumed disparate impact was a sign of something more when that's not necessarily the case.  When it was examined further it was determined that the discrepancy was a result of differences in history.

[mr.turbo]

The officers who wrote the emails should be punished, but they still had nothing to do with the officer who did the shooting.

This is evidence from the case against the police department and city. Two separate matters.

As far as the civil case against the cop goes. There's some interesting material in this thread. Including some observations of the forensic evidence that remain unreported. 

 

[Archer77]

Another interesting aspect of the report is in regards to searches.  What the report leaves out is how many people have warrants and who they are. During a traffic stop having a warrant will automatically result in a search.  Omitting this information might just be an oversight but I don't think it was. In the recommendations section there are several passages on expunging warrants. The DOJ felt this was a problem. I can't prove it but I suspect the DOJ were aware of warrants effects on searches but chose to omit the information while also acknowledging the issue in the recommendation section.

[mr.turbo]

What matters is that the conclusions are accurate. The mistake is to take data and filter it through your ideological and political framework. If you believe there is bias and are determined to find it, you will find it.  

As I mentioned above, if I were a Christian and I believed that God had a plan for me I would interpret all my experiences as a sign of God interceding in my life.  From the context of my world view the conclusion that god was sending me a sign would be reasonable and accurate.

It's not so much a matter of impropriety as it is an example of finding what you're looking for.  This is exactly what happened when the DOJ released a report about school discipline. They assumed disparate impact was a sign of something more when that's not necessarily the case.  When it was examined further it was determined that the discrepancy was a result of differences in history.

Ideology is a neutral concept. What is the ideology at work? Where exactly is the the error in the report? What is correct conclusion?

If you look for something and then you find it that validates the search method.

(unless you're crazy...hmmm?)    

[Archer77]

Ideology is a neutral concept. What is the ideology at work? Where exactly is the the error in the report? What is correct conclusion?

If you look for something and then you find it that validates the search method.

(unless you're crazy...hmmm?)    

Ideology is not a neutral concept in the least. Far from it. One's ideology can have result in a great deal of bias. You don't believe ideology can effect one's perception?  I'm a little flabbergasted that you believe ideology is neutral.

"a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy."


I already explain how the report was in error. The stats from Ferguson are consistent with St. Louis and surround areas and this doesn't indicate a bias at all but a uniformity.  Do you believe there is a conspiracy among police departments to product identical stats? Reread my posts.

[mr.turbo]

Ideology is not a neutral concept in the least. Far from it. One's ideology can have result in a great deal of bias. You don't believe ideology can effect one's perception?  I'm a little flabbergasted that you believe ideology is neutral.

"a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy."


I already explain how the report was in error. The stats from Ferguson are consistent with St. Louis and surround areas and this doesn't indicate a bias at all but a uniformity.  Do you believe there is a conspiracy among police departments to product identical stats? Reread my posts.

well you've taken on a hard assignment. disproving the report. It's gonna take a bit more effort than what you've produced so far but good luck with it.

I think I may turn my attention to the civil case against the officer.  Lots of juicy material there to dredge up!