12 year old shot and killed by police in Cleveland

[Archer77]

there is causation in that guns "magically" migrate to places where guns laws are tough and guns are not even manufactured....like to New York...from [places such as Florida and Virginia

 

You have to prove how they got there other than a conspiracy theory.  The most likely scenario is theft considering that a large portion of these crimes are committed with stolen weapons.  It's not a stretch to conclude that those committing gun violence are capable of theft.

Even if what you say has a sliver of truth it does not provide evidence for Conkers conclusion that the prevalence of guns is a factor in gun violence. The fact still remains that gun violence isn't higher where guns are the most plentiful.

[The_Iron_Disciple]

Are you trying to say, where's his mom and her baby daddy in all this?

Knock off the racist bullshit, Chaos. His mother and " baby daddy " as you so eloquently put it ( * rolls eyes * ) may not even have known about it. You ever think about that ? Plenty of children ( I know I did ) hide things from their parents.

Is that brain so squished in that fuckin noggin of yours ??

[The_Iron_Disciple]

Stupid dead kid should have been carrying a real pistol, that way he could have stood a chance.   Darwin Award winner for sure.  He won't be missed.

Wonderful classy post here, folks ! We're discussing the death of a CHILD and you post this kind of shit.

Use to like you, Tommy, but you are CLEARLY a piece of shit. Truly a piece of shit.

[BB]

FBI UCR, crime is dropping or staying even  -

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls .

Crime Race levels by race, note Spanish folks can go under black or white depending -

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf .

Murder by weapon -

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8


Weapons production by year, it's been going up while crime has dropped-

https://www.atf.gov/statistics/index.html

Just some unbiased reports.

[falco]

Thank God this stunts don't happen in my country.

[el numero uno]

12 year olds vary in size.

My own 12 year old recently outgrew my shoes. He's as tall as some of his teachers and he's built like a tank. At a distance, he could easily be mistaken for a 17 year old just based on his size.

So I have to wonder how big this kid in Cleveland is.

Then on the toy gun thing... My lad being quite big gets some real funny looks 'cause he's still 12 inside, even though he looks older. So he's quite happy walking down the road swinging a wooden sword and pretending to be Luke Skywalker. He get some funny looks 'cause people thing he must be older and a bit retarded... I just walking around shrugging at people a lot.

At 12, yes I can totally see a harmless kid walking around with a toy gun provided by an adult and being quite happy drawing it every 10 seconds and shooting imaginary foes. No right or wrong about it - just pure fun.

If the cops approached him and shouted "drop the gun", I know what my son would do. He's shit his pants and drop the gun. Although it's possible he'd do it in such a way that he inadvertently looked like he was drawing the gun. If it was in his pocket, he'd probably go straight for it so he could comply quickly. I would not credit him with the sense to move in a slow and controlled manner so that the cops didn't think he was drawing on them.

People that say "he should have known better" have most likely not spent much time around 12 year olds. They are fairly smart but very prone to doing dumb shit.

I think the video needs to come out. That way you'd have a better handle on what occurred.

In my day, toy guns never looked like real guns and I think the parents have a lot of responsibility here. My son has a ton of toy guns - mostly nerf guns and they are way more fun for a 12 year old than a BB gun.

As much as I like GB, there are poster on here in their mid 30s who act like spoiled childs, yet they claim a real 12 years old kid "should have known better". 

[denarii]

Pew pew 'Merica

[Conker]

Look at where these crimes occur and who is committed them.  It's not the bulk of gun owners committing these crimes.  If there was causation crime would be clustered in areas where guns were most prevalent but that's not true.

OK so you tell me what areas have the highest gun crime rates in the US then lets compare just the legally owned number of guns in said area to the number of leaglly owned guns in any country in western europe.... as i said you can dance around it all day long come up with this or that clever line to support your argument.

but the blindingly obvious reason why you have so many criminals with guns is simply because they are so readily available, in the UK and rest of western europe it is very rare for criminals to possess guns because they are just much more difficult to get hold of. And then you have this random school/public shooting spree phenomena, which nearly always turn out to be legally owned guns used.

[Archer77]

OK so you tell me what areas have the highest gun crime rates in the US then lets compare just the legally owned number of guns in said area to the number of leaglly owned guns in any country in western europe.... as i said you can dance around it all day long come up with this or that clever line to support your argument.

but the blindingly obvious reason why you have so many criminals with guns is simply because they are so readily available, in the UK and rest of western europe it is very rare for criminals to possess guns because they are just much more difficult to get hold of. And then you have this random school/public shooting spree phenomena, which nearly always turn out to be legally owned guns used.

You haven't proven your point.  You're argument was that more guns by default equaled more crimes and that's just not true.  If what you suggest were true the area with the most guns would have the most gun crime but it doesn't. 

[Option D]

to be honest... this is a case where no one wins...

The kid is 12, but 12 is old enough to know that if you take the orange thing off a toy gun it will be confused for a real one, which is what he was going for. He mad a shitty dumb decision. Ive made a lot of shitty decisions but ive had the good fortune not to do it in front of cops.

And the cops, like can you blame them. The kid reached for his gun, as far as the police figured at the time.

Just a really shitty situation

[Archer77]

to be honest... this is a case where no one wins...

The kid is 12, but 12 is old enough to know that if you take the orange thing off a toy gun it will be confused for a real one, which is what he was going for. He mad a shitty dumb decision. Ive made a lot of shitty decisions but ive had the good fortune not to do it in front of cops.

And the cops, like can you blame them. The kid reached for his gun, as far as the police figured at the time.

Just a really shitty situation

It's definitely a shitty situation.  I didn't even think they made toy guns that weren't brightly colored anymore. I thought this shit was settled twenty years ago.

[Conker]

You have to prove how they got there other than a conspiracy theory.  The most likely scenario is theft considering that a large portion of these crimes are committed with stolen weapons.  It's not a stretch to conclude that those committing gun violence are capable of theft.

Even if what you say has a sliver of truth it does not provide evidence for Conkers conclusion that the prevalence of guns is a factor in gun violence. The fact still remains that gun violence isn't higher where guns are the most plentiful.

OK not sure if it's the case but let's say that a "large" proportion of crimes are carried out with stolen guns, there must be a hell of a lot of stolen guns in circulation...how come there are so many stolen guns? err maybe because there are so many available to steal...however you chop it up, it all boils down to the same thing. at the route of the problem is the huge amount of guns in circulation nationwide.

if you think the number of guns in the country is not a factor in your gun crime figures why do you think there is such difference between these figures and those in western europe?

[Archer77]

OK not sure if it's the case but let's say that a "large" proportion of crimes are carried out with stolen guns, there must be a hell of a lot of stolen guns in circulation...how come there are so many stolen guns? err maybe because there are so many available to steal...however you chop it up, it all boils down to the same thing. at the route of the problem is the huge amount of guns in circulation nationwide.

if you think the number of guns in the country is not a factor in your gun crime figures why do you think there is such difference between these figures and those in western europe?

Criminals will be criminals.  You're argument was that in areas where there were more guns the crimes should be higher but it isn't.  Number of gun is not a factor.  Who has the guns is the most important factor.

[Conker]

You haven't proven your point.  You're argument was that more guns by default equaled more crimes and that's just not true.  If what you suggest were true the area with the most guns would have the most gun crime but it doesn't. 

yeh yeh yeh, seen all this before, if you are comparing yourself with lawless third world countries then yeh you're gun crime rates don't look so bad  and you can then conclude there is no relation between guns in circulation and gun crime.  

BUT when you compare yourselves with the nations you're most culturally and economically similar to i.e the rest of the developed world then yes there is a quite clear correlation between gun crime and numbers of guns in circulation...

you can generally travel quite freely and unchecked in most nations in the western world so moving guns or anything else around internally is not very difficult, so your area to area argument is pretty ingenious.

[Conker]

Criminals will be criminals.  You're argument was that in areas where there were more guns the crimes should be higher but it isn't.  Number of gun is not a factor.  Who has the guns is the most important factor.

no my argument was in developed nations(not areas within a given country) the number of guns in circulation is a huge factor in gun crime rates.

the more guns in general=the more guns in the hands of baddies

[King Shizzo]

You have teenagers only a few years older than 12 who murder their parents or shootup schools.

Also to the people asking where the parents are: A 12 year old kid is old enough to go to the park by himself.

You act like he should of had the parents right by his side 24/7.

[Archer77]

can dance around the issue till the cows come home but it's patently obvious that it boils down to the number of guns in circulation.

no my argument was in developed nations(not areas within a given country) the number of guns in circulation is a huge factor in gun crime rates.

the more guns in general=the more guns in the hands of baddies

This isn't true either and its a major simplification.  You're only considering the total number of guns and not where gun violence is happening the most. By the numbers, the overwhelming majority of gun owners do not commit crimes at a rate any higher than the national average.    As I said, gun violence is about who has the guns and not the guns themselves.  Gun crime occurs across the country but it's concentrated in certain areas.  The problem isn't the guns, its the circumstances in the high crime areas.  Remove the guns and the violence would remain.  Look at Chicago.  Chicago has pretty strict gun restrictions but violence is rampant.  The total number of guns is irrelevant.

Subtract the high crime areas where gun violence occurs most frequently and the United States has a crime rate comparable to Europe.

[tommywishbone]

How many blacks those fine American officers shoot every year 

Probably thousands. Our cops kill everyone and everything they encounter- people, dogs, cats, livestock, it doesn't matter.  Kill kill kill. That's what our police do.

[ProudVirgin69]

to be honest... this is a case where no one wins...

The kid is 12, but 12 is old enough to know that if you take the orange thing off a toy gun it will be confused for a real one, which is what he was going for. He mad a shitty dumb decision. Ive made a lot of shitty decisions but ive had the good fortune not to do it in front of cops.

And the cops, like can you blame them. The kid reached for his gun, as far as the police figured at the time.

Just a really shitty situation

Yeah.  I'm curious to see what an investigation will reveal.  It's possible that the police acted appropriately to a perceived threat and escalated the situation as needed, but I'm not gonna take them at their word for it.

[Conker]

This isn't true either and its a major simplification.  You're only considering the total number of guns and not where gun violence is happening the most. By the numbers, the overwhelming majority of gun owners do not commit crimes at a rate any higher than the national average.    As I said, gun violence is about who has the guns and not the guns themselves.  Gun crime occurs across the country but it's concentrated in certain areas.  The problem isn't the guns, its the circumstances in the high crime areas.  Remove the guns and the violence would remain.  Look at Chicago.  Chicago has pretty strict gun restrictions but violence is rampant.  The total number of guns is irrelevant.

Subtract the high crime areas where gun violence occurs most frequently and the United States has a crime rate comparable to Europe.

if total number of guns in circulation has no relevance, then why do you think you have such a huge problem with gun crime compared to the rest of the developed world and such a higher murder rate?

we also have high crime and violent crime areas in the uk and i'm certain if guns were as readily available to criminals here as they are in the US we would face similar problems,  but the guns simply aren't there to throw petrol on the fire.

anyways i'm done banging my head against a brick wall with you, if americans generally really can't see the correlation between the number of guns in circulation and gun crime, then who am i to argue  

[Archer77]

if total number of guns in circulation has no relevance, then why do you think you have such a huge problem with gun crime compared to the rest of the developed world and such a higher murder rate?

we also have high crime and violent crime areas in the uk and i'm certain if guns were as readily available to criminals here as they are in the US we would face similar problems,  but the guns simply aren't there to throw petrol on the fire.

anyways i'm done banging my head against a brick wall with you, if americans generally really can't see the correlation between the number of guns in circulation and gun crime, then who am i to argue  

Population differences. There is no correlation.  Most gun owners are law abiding citizens so the number of guns is a non-issue.  Areas with the highest concentration of gun owners and thus circulation of guns should have, according to you, a higher rate of gun violence.  They do not.

[Conker]

Population differences. There is no correlation.  Most gun owners are law abiding citizens so the number of guns is a non-issue.  Areas with the highest concentration of gun owners and thus circulation of guns should have, according to you, a higher rate of gun violence.  They do not.

lol ok i'll have one more go!

population differences= .... any explanation?

i agree most gun owners are likely to be law abiding citizens , as you said a "large portion" of gun crime(you think) is stolen guns being used, who are the criminals stealing the guns from....legal gun owners(?)

trafficking anything internally is pretty easy, could you honestly say that you think there is any city in your country ,high gun concentration(for the US) or not where a criminal would find difficulty getting their hands on a gun? it doesn't need to be a "high gun concentration area" per se, if wherever you are it's easy to get a firearm.

that is what i am saying is the difference ,it is not easy getting your hands on guns on the black market in the UK/europe due to there being a minute number of guns in circulation to start with.

[Archer77]

lol ok i'll have one more go!

population differences= .... any explanation?

i agree most gun owners are likely to be law abiding citizens , as you said a "large portion" of gun crime(you think) is stolen guns being used, who are the criminals stealing the guns from....legal gun owners(?)

trafficking anything internally is pretty easy, could you honestly say that you think there is any city in your country ,high gun concentration(for the US) or not where a criminal would find difficulty getting their hands on a gun? it doesn't need to be a "high gun concentration area" per se, if wherever you are it's easy to get a firearm.

that is what i am saying is the difference ,it is not easy getting your hands on guns on the black market in the UK/europe due to there being a minute number of guns in circulation to start with.

Population differences, type, income and size, within the United States and the same differences in population between the United States, Asia and Europe. Evaluating the distribution of crime based on population size, history, congestion of population groups, culture and income levels(thought that is overstated).  Where the crime happening and why is more important than the guns themselves.  There are many theories as to why crime is more prevalent in one place and not another.  I don't think there is a universal answer that applies to every country

[The True Adonis]

exactly what I thought

Yeah, you thought that because you are a dumbass.  This is not what any policeman would or should do.

[The True Adonis]

simple, gun amnesty. give people a year or so to give up their guns. then introduce a mandatory 5-10 year prison sentence for anyone caught illegally possessing a gun after the amnesty period.

well slavery was also part of american culture from it's inception. culture should evolve for the good of society.

Moron, the United States is a vast land and there are not enough police for the majority of the country.  In rural areas, which the United States is still the majority, it can take law enforcement 20-40 minutes or more to get to someone.  Citizens need to be able to protect themselves first and foremost.  I know you have no conception of this because you live like a termite in a congested area.