Back twice a week?

[local hero]

I have to add... I could never start a back workout with a rowing movement, I simply couldn't contract or get the feel when doing pulldown or chin movements afterwards, yet for me it works perfectly well the other way round

I was busy modifying my other post when your replied D...

[jamesjenkinsfitness]

to the original poster. have you tried changing how you do the exercises? example. on weighted pullups o pause at top, middle and bottom for 2 sec each rep. rows pause for 3 sec at top, or on dl pausing half of the way dpwn on sets?

[Option D]

to the original poster. have you tried changing how you do the exercises? example. on weighted pullups o pause at top, middle and bottom for 2 sec each rep. rows pause for 3 sec at top, or on dl pausing half of the way dpwn on sets?

To tell the truth i wasnt as strict as that as im 250 lbs and my back isnt my strong suit. I mostly did cable pull downs. But i as all of you told me, cable pulldowns arent a substitute for chins, so i need to build chins and treat them as a priority movement.
Thanks

[trapz101]

for the deads i gotta shrug the shoulders UP more...i notice i had been rolling them back more than forcing them up.

if you can shrug the shoulder at the top then the weight is not enough

[jpm101]

The traps are a short ROM muscle, and like most other short ROM muscles are very powerful. If more serious work would be directed to the traps, than most men would be able to shrug the same, but usually more than they DL. Hence the suggestion to shrug at the top position of DL's, adding to the  attempt to complete a total compound back workout. The whole chain of back muscles (calves, hams, hips, glutes and up to the neck) are getting strengthen by that short range extra work load, reflecting to the improved dl it's self.

Taking a bar (about mid-thigh) from a PR/supports/platform, etc., try preforming shrugs for 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps. The may surprised how the poundage  advances rather quickly from workout to workout. Changing the grip from the usual middle to extra wide, touching the inside collars of the bar, to a narrow grip, where the thumbs are around 6" apart can make a notable different on results...both in muscle size and strength. Some will alternate grips in the same shrugging routine. Some from workout to workout. Feel free to use straps for heavier loads. Why limit the powerful potential, and size, of the traps and upper back when a grip is the weakest link. The grip will usually catch up with the heavier weights after awhile.

For most men the better grip position for shrugging (and DL'ing) would be with the thumbs facing forward (hammer grip style). Though obtaining enough plates on the bar, after a while can be limiting for either shrugs or DL's. For pure bb'ers , a trap'shrug bar may fit their needs quite well.

There are also overhead BB shrugs, a very overlooked exercise for a complete trap and shoulder girdle movement. Just press a bar overhead, locking the elbows a bit, and shrug  A whole different feel to the exercise and can build power very well. Adjust difference grip positions, also. from extra wide (inside collar) to middle grip. Any version of overhead shrugs will hit the total three delt heads.

Good luck.

[jpm101]

Another shrug exercise, the Hise shrug is one of the better trap exercise, long forgotten.

 Get under a bar, as if doing squats, than just shrug the shoulders up...only need a few inches movement. Can do lower reps or, to the extreme, 20 to 30 reps. Hise shrugs, with those higher reps and deeper breathing, are said to be akin to higher rep breathing squats...both growing exercises. Can handle a huge amount of weight (like regular shrugs) after awhile. And again, strengthens the whole body. May need a heavy pad on the neck/shoulders at first, to adjust to the exercise.

I've done 20 rep breathing squats and also Hise shrugs in the past with very good results. Included the bent arm pullover or straight arm pullover over, most of the time with them....for even more quality results.

Good Luck.

[Donny]

if you can shrug the shoulder at the top then the weight is not enough

would tend to agree with you. I prefer higher reps for traps and getting a full range of motion in the movement. Most people doing a shrug with a Deadlift end up doing partial movements if using a good weight which to me is the point of deadlifts. Traps are a small range of motion but should in my opinion be trained like any muscle with a full range of motion and not a small twitching movement at the end of heavy Deads. I like to concentrate on the muscle(s) i want to train with full concentration and energy.

[DroppingPlates]

There's no such thing as separate training for thickness or wideness. With the right stimulus a muscle will become stronger and grow, that's it.
As for your question, sure you can even train back 3 times a week, as long as you can recover from that. The recovery time is mainly the result of volume and intensity and your individual response.

[ritch]

There's no such thing as separate training for thickness or wideness. With the right stimulus a muscle will become stronger and grow, that's it.
As for your question, sure you can even train back 3 times a week, as long as you can recover from that. The recovery time is mainly the result of volume and intensity and your individual response.

I knew that would come along soon. I consider rowing movements more for thickness.

[DroppingPlates]

I knew that would come along soon. I consider rowing movements more for thickness.

Well, 'thickness' is just another word for size (or hypertrophy). Science has shown us that you can't change the specific shape of a muscle, so when a muscle grows, it grows in 3 dimensions.

[ritch]

Well, 'thickness' is just another word for size (or hypertrophy). Science has shown us that you can't change the specific shape of a muscle, so when a muscle grows, it grows in 3 dimensions.

just by placing elbows in/out or pulling at different heights affects different areas of the back.
Can't say I care what the science says when my personal experience says otherwise.
Mountain dog trainer himself talks about how the electromagnetics validate what you say, but why is it when you train certain movements, certain areas feel more sore?


Not even gonna go further here as neither of us will budge on our beliefs... Exercises variety is very important, by what say here is like saying one would get the same results doing 9 sets of bench VS one who does 3 sets of different movements as it all just works the same according to "studies"

No way does real life validate the studies. They don't seek shape and look, just "size gained" it's more than that and think you know this...

[chaos]

Well, 'thickness' is just another word for size (or hypertrophy). Science has shown us that you can't change the specific shape of a muscle, so when a muscle grows, it grows in 3 dimensions.

Following this belief, do you only do one exercise per body part?

[DroppingPlates]

just by placing elbows in/out or pulling at different heights affects different areas of the back.
Can't say I care what the science says when my personal experience says otherwise.
Mountain dog trainer himself talks about how the electromagnetics validate what you say, but why is it when you train certain movements, certain areas feel more sore?

Not even gonna go further here as neither of us will budge on our beliefs... Exercises variety is very important, by what say here is like saying one would get the same results doing 9 sets of bench VS one who does 3 sets of different movements as it all just works the same according to "studies"

No way does real life validate the studies. They don't seek shape and look, just "size gained" it's more than that and think you know this...

When it comes to various grip positions, angles, rep-techniques and so on, there are definitely differences between muscle activation (I refer to a ton of EMG studies), so in that sense your experience is correct. However, the involved muscles won't become 'wider' without getting 'thicker' or vice verse; it will simply become stronger and grow with the right stimulus, that's all.
Exercises variety is important, but the thing is that most people don't understand this concept, by performing non-complementary exercises.

Following this belief, do you only do one exercise per body part?

That's a good question. In most cases, I choose 2-3 exercises max; 1 with an emphasis on lengthening the muscle, like a pull-up with a 2 second stretch, and 1 from a completely different angle with an emphasis on contracting the muscle, like the barbell row with a 2 second peak contraction. I often end with some high rep hyper extensions.
For arms I often pick 1 exercise without worrying too much which bicep or tricep heads get the most work.

[chaos]

Well, 'thickness' is just another word for size (or hypertrophy). Science has shown us that you can't change the specific shape of a muscle, so when a muscle grows, it grows in 3 dimensions.

That's a good question. In most cases, I choose 2-3 exercises max; 1 with an emphasis on lengthening the muscle, like a pull-up with a 2 second stretch, and 1 from a completely different angle with an emphasis on contracting the muscle, like the barbell row with a 2 second peak contraction. I often end with some high rep hyper extensions.
For arms I often pick 1 exercise without worrying too much which bicep or tricep heads get the most work.

Why bother with two exercises even? Find your favorite exercise and rep the hell out of it!
BTW I disagree with your statement.

[DroppingPlates]

Why bother with two exercises even? Find your favorite exercise and rep the hell out of it!
BTW I disagree with your statement.

Well, at the end of the day it's intensity that matters the most. I strive to simplicity, but to complete development as well, so I believe in some variety. Rows, pull-ups... I love both of them!

[chaos]

Well, at the end of the day it's intensity that matters the most. I strive to simplicity, but to complete development as well, so I believe in some variety. Rows, pull-ups... I love both of them!

I like the stretch/contract style workouts, most of my workouts are done in similar style. However, I believe the shape of a muscle can be changed by consistent overload from a specific angle.

[Donny]

I say Go POF style. 

[DroppingPlates]

I like the stretch/contract style workouts, most of my workouts are done in similar style. However, I believe the shape of a muscle can be changed by consistent overload from a specific angle.

OK, let's assume that rows add 'thickness' to a back and pull ups add 'wideness' (not the terms I prefer to use, but ok...), then it would be an interesting experiment to see what happens when 2 twin brothers (same structure, weight, lifting experience, etc) perform rows or pull ups only for at least 3 months.

[chaos]

OK, let's assume that rows add 'thickness' to a back and pull ups add 'wideness' (not the terms I prefer to use, but ok...), then it would be an interesting experiment to see what happens when 2 twin brothers (same structure, weight, lifting experience, etc) perform rows or pull ups only for at least 3 months.

Try it yourself. No better body to experiment with than your own. Only do pullups, pulldowns , etc for a  couple of months and see if you notice a change in width vs thickness.

[local hero]

Try it yourself. No better body to experiment with than your own. Only do pullups, pulldowns , etc for a  couple of months and see if you notice a change in width vs thickness.

anyone who has suffered from a bad back can answer this... When you have to stick to chins and pulldowns you back starts to slowly deteriorate .  Likewise when you have elbow or shoulder issues and you swap presses for pec dec etc

[DroppingPlates]

anyone who has suffered from a bad back can answer this... When you have to stick to chins and pulldowns you back starts to slowly deteriorate .  Likewise when you have elbow or shoulder issues and you swap presses for pec dec etc

You mean lower back problems? In this scenario I believe it's both safe and effective to stick to chins or pull downs, combined with high rep hyperextension. Muscle deterioration is rather the result of over/under training on the long run.

[chaos]

anyone who has suffered from a bad back can answer this... When you have to stick to chins and pulldowns you back starts to slowly deteriorate .  Likewise when you have elbow or shoulder issues and you swap presses for pec dec etc

Well that may yield different results than a healthy guy trying an experiment for a couple of months.

[Donny]

anyone who has suffered from a bad back can answer this... When you have to stick to chins and pulldowns you back starts to slowly deteriorate .  Likewise when you have elbow or shoulder issues and you swap presses for pec dec etc

Agree 100%

[jpm101]

Actually the lower back, and the abs, are strongly recruited in any chinning/pull-up movement.  A pulldown to a much lesser extent. A man who has never done any chin's may be surprised by the soreness in the abs and the lower back the days following a serious workout. Now your not going to get a super strong lower back, as if you were doing Romanian DL's, but you can gain a certain amount of improvement in that area. The back will not deteriorate  by any means. Even dips hit the lower back, and abs, to a good degree.  

A effective way to create more flexibility in the total back area, as well as the shoulder girdle is to just  hang from a chinning bar....try to relax the body as much as possible. If there's any secret to a good stretching program it's relaxing the area being stretched. Change hand spacing  from extra wide to touching the hands together for the full benefits of hanging free. Hold the position anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 or 4 minutes. Weak grip, than advise using straps for the extra long holds. The grip will usually improve, even when using straps. Suggest the nylon style straps. hardly never/ever wear out.

"Try it yourself" is an excellent quote from chaos. So many falsely depend way too much on the untested opinions of others, about certain exercises or routines.  That perfect program, that everyone is looking for, may past them by if not taking a little time exploring  something new in their training life. If it works for you, than great, it works for you....but you have to try just about everything at one time or another in your training life to find out what really does

No one can change the shape of a muscle, your individual muscle structure was the hand you were dealt with at birth. Muscle inserts/ligaments/tendons all have a major influence of that.  No one exercise can influence muscle thickness or width. Can surly take advantage of the potential of a broad frame. And the potential of inherited muscle thinckness. Both a greater advantage to any BB'er.  An example of overcoming bad genetics might be Larry Scott, who's shoulder width was extremely narrow, yet develop one of the better delt tie in's in all of BB's. Another example might be being born with longer bicep inserts, giving a flat appearing bicep when flexed. Never going to get that baseball double split biceps when flexing. But can certainly make the most of what your were given at birth.  If you were born to be 5"5 your never going to be 6'4...period.

Good luck.

[DroppingPlates]

Another solid post JPM!