Man assaulted by vigilante at a Florida Walmart.

[JOHN MATRIX]

Yup, no problems with open and carry. Everything will go smoothly, just like the NRA says. No foreseeable problems with people walking around with guns. Every human being that has a gun will follow the rules accordingly and there will be no problems whatsoever. Other people walking the streets will be able to perfectly distinguish between a criminal with a gun and a law abiding citizen with a gun. It's that easy. No problem at all.

this is overwhelmingly the case, despite the endless laments and fearmongering of the left.

when the CC movement began a few decades ago, the left and the media was screaming bloody murder and saying it would be 'a return to the wild west' and that people would somehow instantly become cold blooded killers just because they were carrying, and would 'open fire to settle any small grievances'

flash-forward all these years, and CC holders are statistically one of if not THE most law-abiding group in america, and CC has resulted in a virtually non-existant percentage of crime.

sucks when the facts get in the way of your little narratives, doesnt it

[Belieber]

Fantastic copy paste thread. 10 pages easy.

[SF1900]

this is overwhelmingly the case, despite the endless laments and fearmongering of the left.

when the CC movement began a few decades ago, the left and the media was screaming bloody murder and saying it would be 'a return to the wild west' and that people would somehow instantly become cold blooded killers just because they were carrying, and would 'open fire to settle any small grievances'

flash-forward all these years, and CC holders are statistically one of if not THE most law-abiding group in america, and CC has resulted in a virtually non-existant percentage of crime.

sucks when the facts get in the way of your little narratives, doesnt it

I never said it will turn into the wild west, did I, genius? Epic trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself seem right.  

It may be overwhelmingly the case, but not in all cases. Humans are infallible. Shit is bound to hit the fan. With more people utilizing open and carry, expect more incidences like this to happen. The NRA was trying to put forth a narrative that something like this would NEVER EVER happen, which is the opposite. They just need to be honest and admit that incidences like this may occur. But in their tiny little minds, they do not even leave room for some of the possible negatives occurring. Nothing is 100% full proof. Every situation has pros and cons.

Also, you stated, "and CC has resulted in a virtually non-existant percentage of crime." Can you present evidence? Did you think I was really going to accept this statement without evidence?  

[Ronnie Rep]

A simple errand turned violent for Clarence Daniels this week when he went to Walmart for some coffee creamer and wound up in a chokehold.

Upon arriving at the Walmart in Florida’s Hillsborough County on Tuesday, the 62-year-old Daniels, who is black, grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat. Watching this from inside the store was Michael Foster, a 43-year-old white man described by the Tampa Bay Times as “a well-intentioned vigilante.” As soon as Daniels walked into the store, Foster tackled him, shouting, “He’s got a gun!” Ignoring Daniels’ repeated yells of, “I have a permit!” Foster proceeded to put him into a chokehold. When sheriff’s deputies arrived on the scene, they confirmed that Daniels was indeed a concealed carry permit holder and Foster was arrested and charged with battery.
 
Fortunately, no one was injured in the scuffle, which might explain why the incident was not widely covered and why the local coverage chalked it up to an honest misunderstanding. And maybe it was an honest misunderstanding. But Foster’s instinct to take matters into his own hands and attack a man he thought might pose a threat to his fellow Walmart shoppers pulls into focus the state of vigilantism in the U.S., and Florida in particular.


The rest of the article can be found here:http://news.yahoo.com/man-assaulted-by-vigilante-at-florida-walmart-230643501.html

I always pack heat in Walmart.

[_aj_]

It may be overwhelmingly the case, but not in all cases. Humans are infallible. Shit is bound to hit the fan. With more people utilizing open and carry, expect more incidences like this to happen. The NRA was trying to put forth a narrative that something like this would NEVER EVER happen, which is the opposite. They just need to be honest and admit that incidences like this may occur. But in their tiny little minds, they do not even leave room for some of the possible negatives occurring. Nothing is 100% full proof. Every situation has pros and cons.

Holy straw man, Batman! The NRA never, ever said that this would NEVER happen. And BTW, in this case, nobody got shot, nobody got hurt. The only thing that DID happen is that an anti-gun racist (are there any other kind) tackled a lawful black man for exercising his constitutional rights. Where the fuck did the NRA say that wouldn't happen?

[SF1900]

Holy straw man, Batman! The NRA never, ever said that this would NEVER happen. And BTW, in this case, nobody got shot, nobody got hurt. The only thing that DID happen is that an anti-gun racist (are there any other kind) tackled a lawful black man for exercising his constitutional rights. Where the fuck did the NRA say that wouldn't happen?

Wow, following me around. I feel honored.

Has the NRA ever put forth a narrative or discussed the cons or drawbacks of open and carry? Direct me to any source where the NRA has had an open and honest discussion about the possible pros AND cons of open and carry. I'll await your source.

[JOHN MATRIX]

I never said it will turn into the wild west, did I, genius? Epic trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself seem right.  

It may be overwhelmingly the case, but not in all cases. Humans are infallible. Shit is bound to hit the fan. With more people utilizing open and carry, expect more incidences like this to happen. The NRA was trying to put forth a narrative that something like this would NEVER EVER happen, which is the opposite. They just need to be honest and admit that incidences like this may occur. But in their tiny little minds, they do not even leave room for some of the possible negatives occurring. Nothing is 100% full proof. Every situation has pros and cons.

Also, you stated, "and CC has resulted in a virtually non-existant percentage of crime." Can you present evidence? Did you think I was really going to accept this statement without evidence?  

no one, and certainly not the NRA, ever made the claim that 'nothing bad would ever happen, ever'  

and there is plenty of evidence showing CC holders commit virtually no crime. look it up if you dare.

and your reasoning is absurd. by that logic, our entire system of roadways and the automobile would never have been put into use, because despite being statitstically extremely safe, occassionally there are accidents. hell CC is statistically FAR safer than allowing anyone in the world to get behind a 4000pound block of steel that can travel over 100 mph and get on the road with thousands of others where they will pass within inches of each other thousands of times per day

[tommywishbone]

Story tells nothing about his favorite coffee creamer brand

And who the fuck goes to a filthy smelly stinky Walmart just for creamer?  I suspect there's more to the story than we are being told. Perhaps he was planning to buy condoms too and have sex with a white woman?

[_aj_]

Wow, following me around. I feel honored.

It's not easy, but it has to be done.

Has the NRA ever put forth a narrative or discussed the cons or drawbacks of open and carry?

Quite a lot, actually. The NRA is actually pretty much against open carry, for the reasons that most would think: scary, unintended intimidation, law enforcement overreaction. The NRA actually publicly admonished the Texas Open Carry folks for being "inciteful".

I am a bit mixed on open carry. I wish that we lived in a country where it was acceptable, but we don't right now.

[SF1900]

no one, and certainly not the NRA, ever made the claim that 'nothing bad would ever happen, ever'  

and there is plenty of evidence showing CC holders commit virtually no crime. look it up if you dare.

and your reasoning is absurd. by that logic, our entire system of roadways and the automobile would never have been put into use, because despite being statitstically extremely safe, occassionally there are accidents. hell CC is statistically FAR safer than allowing anyone in the world to get behind a 4000pound block of steel that can travel over 100 mph and get on the road with thousands of others where they will pass within inches of each other thousands of times per day

As stated to AJ, has the NRA ever had an open and honest discussion about the pros and cons of open and carry? If not, and only discussing the pros, its pretty equivalent to saying something bad will never happen. Why not discuss the potential cons that may happen? And if they had this discussion, then I am wrong, but Ive never heard it happen before.

Why should I look for the stats? Youre the one making the claim, therefore you should provide the data. I will take that as you not having the actual data to back up your claims and instead putting it on me. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. Ill await your evidence, if you choose to provide it.

[SF1900]

It's not easy, but it has to be done.

Quite a lot, actually. The NRA is actually pretty much against open carry, for the reasons that most would think: scary, unintended intimidation, law enforcement overreaction. The NRA actually publicly admonished the Texas Open Carry folks for being "inciteful".

I am a bit mixed on open carry. I wish that we lived in a country where it was acceptable, but we don't right now.

Yes, but then texas fired back and NRA withdrew their statement. You missed that part, huh? 

[ChuckleHead]

no one, and certainly not the NRA, ever made the claim that 'nothing bad would ever happen, ever'  

and there is plenty of evidence showing CC holders commit virtually no crime. look it up if you dare.

and your reasoning is absurd. by that logic, our entire system of roadways and the automobile would never have been put into use, because despite being statitstically extremely safe, occassionally there are accidents. hell CC is statistically FAR safer than allowing anyone in the world to get behind a 4000pound block of steel that can travel over 100 mph and get on the road with thousands of others where they will pass within inches of each other thousands of times per day

oh shut up already.

[JOHN MATRIX]

As stated to AJ, has the NRA ever had an open and honest discussion about the pros and cons of open and carry? If not, and only discussing the pros, its pretty equivalent to saying something bad will never happen. Why not discuss the potential cons that may happen? And if they had this discussion, then I am wrong, but Ive never heard it happen before.

Why should I look for the stats? Youre the one making the claim, therefore you should provide the data. I will take that as you not having the actual data to back up your claims and instead putting it on me. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. Ill await your evidence, if you choose to provide it.

1. you clearly have no clue whatsoever about either the NRA or the subject at hand. your claim is utterly ridiculous

2. Im am simply relating established fact. you are the one challenging said facts and claiming different, so the onus is on you to show some data to disprove the established consensus. myslef and the rest of the world eagerly awaits your groundbreaking, newly discovered data.

[JOHN MATRIX]

oh shut up already.

sorry data and evidence gets in the way of your little narratives. sucks doesnt it

[_aj_]

oh shut up already.

You are giving up too early. Next time it's traditional to call those who don't share your opinion "Nazis" before you fire the "shut up" explanation.

[JOHN MATRIX]

haha yes Aj, its only a matter of time before they pull out their Race Card as well

[ChuckleHead]

sorry data and evidence gets in the way of your little narratives. sucks doesnt it

my "narratives"?

how about a thought from you that wasn't cut and pasted into your brain.

next you'll be telling us about "talking points" and "planks in platforms".

[SF1900]

sorry data and evidence gets in the way of your little narratives. sucks doesnt it

What data and evidence? Lol you have provided statements. I don't see any data or evidence.

[ChuckleHead]

You are giving up too early. Next time it's traditional to call those who don't share your opinion "Nazis" before you fire the "shut up" explanation.

i have to explain to you that that wasn't an "explanation" but a suggested course of action?

if you are going to blubber on and on without making any sense, sooner or later a "shut up" will pop up. that is what non sense elicits.

[Voice of Doom]

Some Stats:  http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/

Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit crimes

State 11 Permits issued Revoked permits % Revoked Violent Crime Rate Change 12
Florida 1,327,321 13 4,129 0.3% -30.5%
Virginia 50,000 14 0 0.0% -21.9%
Arizona 63,000 15 50 0.9% -28.7%
North Carolina 59,597 16 1,274 1.2% -26.4%
Minnesota 46,636 17
 12 0.03% 8.0% 18
Michigan 155,000 19 2,178 0.1% 1.4%

Fact:  The results for the first 30 states that passed “shall-issue” laws for concealed carry permits are similar.

Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime.  They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime. 20

Fact: People with concealed carry permits are: 21
•5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
•13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public

[Walter Sobchak]

A simple errand turned violent for Clarence Daniels this week when he went to Walmart for some coffee creamer and wound up in a chokehold.

Upon arriving at the Walmart in Florida’s Hillsborough County on Tuesday, the 62-year-old Daniels, who is black, grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat. Watching this from inside the store was Michael Foster, a 43-year-old white man described by the Tampa Bay Times as “a well-intentioned vigilante.” As soon as Daniels walked into the store, Foster tackled him, shouting, “He’s got a gun!” Ignoring Daniels’ repeated yells of, “I have a permit!” Foster proceeded to put him into a chokehold. When sheriff’s deputies arrived on the scene, they confirmed that Daniels was indeed a concealed carry permit holder and Foster was arrested and charged with battery.
 
Fortunately, no one was injured in the scuffle, which might explain why the incident was not widely covered and why the local coverage chalked it up to an honest misunderstanding. And maybe it was an honest misunderstanding. But Foster’s instinct to take matters into his own hands and attack a man he thought might pose a threat to his fellow Walmart shoppers pulls into focus the state of vigilantism in the U.S., and Florida in particular.


The rest of the article can be found here:http://news.yahoo.com/man-assaulted-by-vigilante-at-florida-walmart-230643501.html

Did this happen at the Walmart you work at?

[SF1900]

Some Stats:  http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/

Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit crimes

State 11 Permits issued Revoked permits % Revoked Violent Crime Rate Change 12
Florida 1,327,321 13 4,129 0.3% -30.5%
Virginia 50,000 14 0 0.0% -21.9%
Arizona 63,000 15 50 0.9% -28.7%
North Carolina 59,597 16 1,274 1.2% -26.4%
Minnesota 46,636 17
 12 0.03% 8.0% 18
Michigan 155,000 19 2,178 0.1% 1.4%

Fact:  The results for the first 30 states that passed “shall-issue” laws for concealed carry permits are similar.

Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime.  They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime. 20

Fact: People with concealed carry permits are: 21
•5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
•13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public

Thank you for the stats.

However, my stance never implied that people who open and carry are criminals.

My stance was that incidences that occur in the OP article will happen. There are many incidences that can happen. For example, some guy thinking someone with open and carry is a criminal and will attack him; a person with open and carry trying to shoot a criminal, missing, and killing an innocent child. I am well aware that people who carry open and carry are not out there blasting people away. I never said that. As stated, I was referring to the many other mishaps that can occur with open and carry.

[_aj_]

Thank you for the stats.

However, my stance never implied that people who open and carry are criminals.

My stance was that incidences that occur in the OP article will happen. There are many incidences that can happen. For example, some guy thinking someone with open and carry is a criminal and will attack him; a person with open and carry trying to shoot a criminal, missing, and killing an innocent child. I am well aware that people who carry open and carry are not out there blasting people away. I never said that. As stated, I was referring to the many other mishaps that can occur with open and carry.

I don't think that the guy was open carrying. I think that he "flashed" and his concealed weapon was seen.

[ChuckleHead]

a gun is a tool used to damage and take life.

i'm in a store, i guy walks in with a gun strapped to his side.

i have no way of knowing if he is a good guy, just there to shop, or if he is there to rob and shoot.

i don't have gun. so now i have to walk around people who hold tools design to kill and i have to hope they don't use them.

the rejoinder to that is to carry a gun myself just in case one of them does intend to use theirs.

so we all end up having to carry guns.

we all know that is the logical progression. all the scenarios have been thought of and posed. "they", the powers behind any agenda, know the realities.

it goes forward anyway. therein lies the meaningful inspection and discussion.

while we argue back and forth about shit they already settled, they are able to set the agenda.

[King Shizzo]

Did this happen at the Walmart you work at?

I do not work for a Walmart store.