Drug-Free Natural Genetic Limits (what really is possible)

[thegamechanger]

lots of quitters in this thread talking about limits.

[FermiDirac]

true, but I was age 16-17 and didn't lift or know what a steroid was then, so wtf.
I'm no freak but competed in drug tested shows at 5% fat and around 193 lbs at 5' 9 1/2"
That goofy chart says I max at 155-160 lbs LOL.
I couldn't get that light unless I starved myself for weeks and chopped my leg off LOL

Does anyone here really think  a genetic freak like 5"11" Ronnie Coleman needed drugs to be
heavier then 165-170 lbs with 5% body fat.

This kind of chart reminds me of those goofy positive self esteem ht/wt /frame charts for chunky girls.

The results are probably based around a Gaussian bell curve, since these forms of research rarely has enough data points to provide sufficiently accurate tail distribution behaviour. Ronald Dean Coleman would probably lie somewhere to the farthest right.
The numbers presented are probably just the Gaussian mean and extrapolated from a few data points.

[Go 4 It]

There's a huge difference between being skinny and being lean..

[Go 4 It]

How do u get lean without getting skinny?

I've been skinny at 150 and been ripped muscular at 150 theres a big difference

[The True Adonis]

Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.

Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)

50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only  20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall

Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller

A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.

Now let's assume that muscle growth on  lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.

Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.

1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or  more ?

The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.

That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.

And you are putting forth the false notion that somehow abnormal height frequency will mirror the frequency of muscle building genetics.  I don`t see how that makes any sense at all.  Its not a one for one game.  Just like with genetic disease.  Why didn`t you equate genetic muscle frequency with instances of Male Breast Carcinoma or Malignant fibrous histiocytoma?  Why choose height?  Just curious because it does not make any sense whatsoever.

[The True Adonis]

You start by supposing the distribution of attribute A is similar to the distribution of attribute B.  By the end of your post, you're taking it for granted.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  Why do you believe it is, in this case?

EXACTLY what I pointed out!!!!


Awesome observation my friend!

[The True Adonis]

I understand and agree. My point is what were the differences in your diet and cardio between being lean and muscular and lean and skinny.

I used to do waaayy to much high intensity cardio it was making me lose muscle for sure.

I`d say just run one mile a day.  That is the perfect distance to burn stored fat with VO2 Max.  Run hard and as fast as you can for that mile.  Do this everyday.  First, get to around 10-12 percent bodyfat though.  2 miles could work too, but its not necessary.  Cardio is not entirely necessary of course, but it is great for your heart and does push you into more fat burning from trouble areas-stored areas.

[Go 4 It]

I understand and agree. My point is what were the differences in your diet and cardio between being lean and muscular and lean and skinny.

I used to do waaayy to much high intensity cardio it was making me lose muscle for sure.

a lot of different factors, muscle maturity for one, lower intensity cardio (am long duration) between 110-130 heart, hit cardio post workout (short duration), higher fats (I was always scared of fats), keeping training sessions to 45-60 min tops...thats just off the top of my head

[The True Adonis]

a lot of different factors, muscle maturity for one, lower intensity cardio (am long duration) between 110-130 heart, hit cardio post workout (short duration), higher fats (I was always scared of fats), keeping training sessions to 45-60 min tops...thats just off the top of my head

Very good idea to do cardio after working out.  Best time to run that mile.  A mile can be classified as Short duration, high intensity because you should be completing it in 5-10 minute range running all out.

[thegamechanger]

arnold used to recommend running in his books in the 1970's
maybe he was onto something 

[The True Adonis]

Joon,
Why do you treat your legs differently than your other muscle groups. 

[Go 4 It]

Yeah I hear you, I probably train way too long, I just CANNOT EVER seem to get my mind to do low intensity cardio, its like the athlete in me takes overs and just wants to go faster.
This is what I do. What do u think?

Am Cardio Monday to Saturday on empty stomach. (20 min cross trainer, fast as possible, heart rate will generally be 160 +) + 5-10 mins skipping varations, 15-20mins boxing bag + shadow boxing.
Evening I come do weights, usually about hour and half.

Back + Chest,
Shoulder + Arms,
rest.

Back + Chest,
Shoulders + Arms,
legs,
Rest

Eat between 1500-1800 calories, about 200g Protein, 100-150g carbs rest fat.

But I am gonna start Keto soon and cut back on cardio.

Whats your height/weight? How the hell do you train back and chest together? Both are big body parts, im usually cashed after I train back. Low intensity cardio on the stair climber, usually 60 min sometimes up to 90. My post workout hit cardio is either running or swimming. .but I prefer swimming 30 min. Whats your goal?

[Go 4 It]

Cracks me up nobody even noticed the hot babe's ass in the upper right corner, as all eyes were on the shirtless dude with hammer LOL.
getbig, gotta love it.

and nobody noticed that he's not 5% bf

[King Shizzo]

I am proof of what is possible if you want it bad enough.

[old-school-lifter]

holy crap last 2 pics look like a ifbb pro small version beyeke..

none of the musclemania filt liars are natural

ade rai another liar

[thegamechanger]

i train chest and back together it's really easy:

3 sets of pushups
3 sets of pullups

since ive already maxed out genetically (according to this thread), i cannot grow any more unless i take steroids so why push it when all i can do is maintain what ive got ?

[J. Richards]

With Howard and gamechanger on this.  80% of doubters can be eliminated because they don't train, eat, sleep like a champ... also don't have the mindset, knowledge or discipline to defy that chart.  How many train year round?... I always hear how they "took a year off".... "it's been off and on".. "I got really busy, but I plan on getting back into it sometime".... all wrong answers. It's far from easy, that's why only 5% actually succeed.  My history for the backlash to come.... 48 yrs old...always natural (too stubborn and hate crutches or help).. training continuously since 16.  Only time away from actual (or facsimile of) weight equipment was Desert Storm & Shield, USMC... but a few of us still did pull ups, pushups, and seabag squats. Did a few contests, last one in 1995, won @ 5'11 and 201 lbs... was 6-7%...  less @ previous contests but looked a little flat.  A lot fuller and thicker at higher BF while still maintaining good definition. I will try to scrounge pic for doubters, if I can't dig one up, will just take a current one... 202 and probably 12%.... not professionally measured for you doubters, but good enough for me.  Not a meltdown by any stretch.  Ciao

[che]

Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.

Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)

50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only  20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall

Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller

A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.

Now let's assume that muscle growth on  lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.

Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.

1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or  more ?

The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.

That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.

So you are saying when it comes to muscle development you are a  genetic freak (top 2 % in the world  )  right ?   please explain why (even on HRT ) you look like an obese  mongoloid retarded  piece of shit .

[The True Adonis]

With Howard and gamechanger on this.  80% of doubters can be eliminated because they don't train, eat, sleep like a champ... also don't have the mindset, knowledge or discipline to defy that chart.  How many train year round?... I always hear how they "took a year off".... "it's been off and on".. "I got really busy, but I plan on getting back into it sometime".... all wrong answers. It's far from easy, that's why only 5% actually succeed.  My history for the backlash to come.... 48 yrs old...always natural (too stubborn and hate crutches or help).. training continuously since 16.  Only time away from actual (or facsimile of) weight equipment was Desert Storm & Shield, USMC... but a few of us still did pull ups, pushups, and seabag squats. Did a few contests, last one in 1995, won @ 5'11 and 201 lbs... was 6-7%...  less @ previous contests but looked a little flat.  A lot fuller and thicker at higher BF while still maintaining good definition. I will try to scrounge pic for doubters, if I can't dig one up, will just take a current one... 202 and probably 12%.... not professionally measured for you doubters, but good enough for me.  Not a meltdown by any stretch.  Ciao

Why do you look like shit though?  The chart mocks you.  Look at your fat body.






PS. I have trained for 17 years now, with about a week off, once or twice a year.  I get all the sleep I want, nothing holds me back and the chart fits me well.

[thegamechanger]

im kinda curious why all you guys who reached your limit of 160 pounds are still training so much  you must've reached your limit within the first few years and then no progress for years and years and years 

[che]

Why do you look like shit though?  The chart mocks you.  Look at your fat body.






PS. I have trained for 17 years now, with about a week off, once or twice a year.  I get all the sleep I want, nothing holds me back and the chart fits me well.

My guess ,  3-4 % BF in that pic.

[The True Adonis]

im kinda curious why all you guys who reached your limit of 160 pounds are still training so much  you must've reached your limit within the first few years and then no progress for years and years and years 

Does training stop being good for you healthwise once you reach your limits?  


Any evidence of this?

[che]

im kinda curious why all you guys who reached your limit of 160 pounds are still training so much  you must've reached your limit within the first few years and then no progress for years and years and years 

You must be a beast ,Thegamechanger .

[Bevo]

Ridicule me all you want, I've always been open and candid about my bodybuilding drug use.
I stopped using drugs in 1987 and competed from 1992-95 without drugs at a ripped 190-193 lbs.
I wasn't a lifetime natural , but I was off for several years when I competed at those wts.
Plenty of 5'9" inch bodybuilders have competed around 190-195 lbs and  5% body fat like me.
Only 0.000001% every looked close to Zane. His muscle shape and classic lines is what made him great.

Yes a average white guy better genetics natural than a Levrone and wheeler  

5 % at 5'9 natural at 195 hahaha

Where are all these natural 195 at 5'9, 5% u speak of??

[J. Richards]

lol @ trying to poke the bear... that pic is from last year.  Was about 210... not claiming shredded... I'll get a recent pic for all the homos to flail their meat to