Happy Sunday

[calfzilla]

That's the thing. We do know that many religious people hold CERTAIN core values and truth, that are often widely believed as a general rule. Sure, there are minor deviations, but most Christians believe relatively the same thing, especially those that follow the bible.

Its not the same with atheism, since there is no one book (something like the bible) telling us what to believe. Thus, there are greater variations of what we believe and do not believe.

I'll be honest, I'm an atheist but I wish I believed in god. I know that sounds weird but I think it would be cool to believe and I wouldn't mind taking on a lot of their good values. Plus the social aspect of church interests me.

[SF1900]

I'll be honest, I'm an atheist but I wish I believed in god. I know that sounds weird but I think it would be cool to believe and I wouldn't mind taking on a lot of their good values. Plus the social aspect of church interests me.

I don't agree with the value part, since there are many people who have good morals and values independent of religion.

However, I do agree with the social aspects of church. The churches, not all of them, but many of them do a good job at creating a close-knit community. I am a strong proponent of community, and I believe America has lost its way with this "individualistic" idea of life, which is so contrary to who we are are humans. The church definitely does a good job of creating a community where people are looked after and cared for. Sort of like a "communal home."

[Overload]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is no God, no Heaven, no Hell.

It was all created by man.

Religion is a way to control people and make them be "good" people and give them hope and comfort about death and bad things that happen in the world.

In conclusion:
Alice and Bob are two friends talking after school. Alice tells Bob that she watched a movie the previous evening. Bob believes her easily, because he knows that movies exist, that Alice exists, and that Alice is capable and fond of watching movies. If he doubts her, he might ask for a ticket stub or a confirmation from one of her friends. If, however, Alice tells Bob that she flew on a unicorn to a fairy kingdom where she participated in an ambrosia-eating contest, and she produces a professionally-printed contest certificate and a friend who would testify to the events described, Bob would still not be inclined to believe her without strong evidence for the existence of flying unicorns, fairies and ambrosia-eating contests.

You're welcome and have a great day.

[calfzilla]

Good point sf1900, I guess I do have many values rooted in religion traditionally.  Also a lot of wisdom in various religions I like to extract.  

[Archer77]

I don't agree with the value part, since there are many people who have good morals and values independent of religion.

However, I do agree with the social aspects of church. The churches, not all of them, but many of them do a good job at creating a close-knit community. I am a strong proponent of community, and I believe America has lost its way with this "individualistic" idea of life, which is so contrary to who we are are humans. The church definitely does a good job of creating a community where people are looked after and cared for. Sort of like a "communal home."

The basic moral principles of Christianity and in particular Jesus Christ had a major impact on western ideas of morality. Nietzsche made a good case for this. The enlightenment probably wouldn't have happened without Christianity.

[Man of Steel]

That's the thing. We do know that many religious people hold CERTAIN core values and truth, that are often widely believed as a general rule. Sure, there are minor deviations, but most Christians believe relatively the same thing, especially those that follow the bible.

Its not the same with atheism, since there is no one book (something like the bible) telling us what to believe. Thus, there are greater variations of what we believe and do not believe.

Yes, I agree that despite varying Christian denominations and or varying biblical translations utilized that the core of the faith is typically quite consistent.  Certainly not always consistent but primarily so.

Below are the core beliefs of two of the largest, most powerful atheist organizations in the US:

I've seen Ricky Gervais make this same comment in a number of interviews, but it's just not universally applicable for all atheists.

For example, The Atheist Community of Austin is a big atheist organization that has hosted the National Atheist Conference in 2013 and has broadcasted the Atheist Experience show for many, many years now both on public television and now youtube. 

http://www.atheist-community.org/library/positions/

They profess the following beliefs or "position statements" as they prefer:

Position Statements

The Atheist Community of Austin is a non-profit, educational organization involved in community outreach and activism. Our various media outreach programs and activities afford us the opportunity to speak out on a number of issues. Atheism is misunderstood and misrepresented and we feel it is important that our community has official, public positions on a number of issues.

Atheism is a singular position about the existence of a god or gods and the beliefs of individual atheists on other issues are diverse. These statements represent the official positions of this organization and do not represent the position of all atheists or ACA members. Acceptance of these positions is not required for membership in the ACA.

Primary Positions

Church-State Separation

The ACA understands:

Article VI of the United States Constitution prohibits any religious test for public office
The First Amendment necessarily requires that our government remain neutral with regard to religion
The Fourteenth Amendment extends amendments to the US Constitution to the state governments
We believe that this neutral position ensures that no religion receives preferential treatment over another religion, or the lack of religion.

We support the right of each individual to believe or disbelieve as they choose. We support the right of individuals to practice their religious beliefs to the extent that such practice does not inhibit or infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others.

Human Rights

The ACA opposes legislation that seeks to discriminate against individuals on the basis of sex, race, religious belief, sexual orientation or other status. We believe that laws and regulations which limit or deny freedoms and rights must have a valid, secular foundation.

Secondary Positions

The ACA considers the following positions to be logical extensions of our primary position statements.

Religious Displays

The ACA believes that religious displays on public property violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment and therefore should be banned. These displays represent favoritism toward a particular religion or group of religions and serve as an implicit endorsement. Additionally, they represent a divisive mechanism which marginalizes that segment of the population, religious or not, which does not subscribe to the represented beliefs.

The ACA believes that religious messages included in anthems, mottos and pledges are also violations of the First Amendment.

Creationism and Intelligent Design

Creationism is the religious assertion that life on Earth was created by a supernatural entity. While we support the right of any individual to hold this belief, it is unsupported by science, and the Supreme Court of the United States has rightly determined that creationism violates the "Lemon Test." As such, creationism constitutes promotion of religion and cannot be taught in public schools.

Intelligent Design is the assertion that the current theory of evolution and natural selection is insufficient to properly explain the complexity of life on Earth. While that objection may be reasonable, Intelligent Design proponents advance the additional claim that the correct explanation must include intervention by an intelligent entity. While they staunchly refuse to identify this entity, the general view among most advocates is that this entity is "God".

The Intelligent Design movement has been unable to support their assertions with scientific evidence and has often been called "Creationism in a lab coat" or "Creationism in disguise".

The ACA supports the various legal rulings which prohibit teaching these unproven assertions and religious opinions in public school science classes.

Public Education

The ACA believes that public education is absolutely essential to the future welfare of our nation, and the world. We support efforts to improve the quality of the public education by:

Encouraging the development of critical thinking skills
Instilling appreciation for the arts and humanities
Maintaining the integrity of science
Providing a safe, healthy and productive learning environment
As a government institution which serves citizens of many different social, economic and religious backgrounds, public education must remain neutral with regard to religion.
We believe that we must strive to provide all students with the equal opportunity to receive a robust and diverse education.

Reproductive Rights

The ACA holds that individual human rights necessarily include the premise of individual sovereignty with regard to decisions that affect one's person. In support of this premise, the ACA supports:

The right of all consenting adults, of all sexual preferences, to responsibly manage their own sexual activities without unnecessary interference or restriction
Robust and properly informative education regarding human sexuality, birth control, family planning, sexually transmitted disease and pregnancy termination
The ACA strongly opposes "abstinence-only" sex education. Abstinence-only sex education is a naive concept which ignores the reality of human sexuality and fails to properly educate individuals; often resulting in increased rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease.

The ACA strongly opposes the "Global Gag Rule", and any similar legislation or restrictions which seeks to limit or provide preferential funding to health organizations based on the inclusion of abortion and abortion-education services in their programs. These actions represent the worst sort of manipulation; forcing clinics to jeopardize the health of many patients in order to receive much needed funding.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair who once resided in Austin, Texas founded and presided over the American Atheists organization.  They profess the following beliefs or "Aims and Principles" as they prefer:

http://atheists.org/about-us/aims-and-purposes

AIMS AND PRINCIPLES

American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.

American Atheists, Inc., is organized

to stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices;
to collect and disseminate information, data, and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding of them, their origins, and their histories;
to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the complete and absolute separation of state and church;
to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the establishment and maintenance of a thoroughly secular system of education available to all;
to encourage the development and public acceptance of a humane ethical system stressing the mutual sympathy, understanding, and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to society;
to develop and propagate a social philosophy in which humankind is central and must itself be the source of strength, progress, and ideals for the well-being and happiness of humanity;
to promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation, and enrichment of human (and other) life;
to engage in such social, educational, legal, and cultural activity as will be useful and beneficial to the members of American Atheists and to society as a whole.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind -- finding their resources within themselves -- can and must create their own destiny. Materialism restores dignity and intellectual integrity to humanity. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism's "faith" is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment which is in its very essence life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

Although I still belief the following to be true because I've experienced it:

Put 20 atheists in a room and you'll get about 5-6 different definitions of atheism.   Same with theists.

I don't care how, what, why an atheist defines or doesn't define their position......I know exactly what/who a person without God is.

What I enjoy about Sam's comment is how he begins by stating that the term "atheism" need not exist as the identity of "atheists" need not be defined by words and then concludes with redefining the term "atheism" with different words.

That said, just enjoy Dawkins' lecture/discussion LOL. 

Not a problem.....just a person that chooses to have no belief in God....simple as that.  Reasons why vary from person to person.  You'll most likely give me a different spin....fine.  It'll still come back to what I just wrote.

I agree with Sam, don't need the term "atheist" or "atheism".  I just found it funny that he still redefined it.

[The Showstoppa]

The energy expended to go nowhere is amusing.

Sounds like a bittered guy because of the shape of his noggin.

[SF1900]

Man of Steel:
I know exactly what/who a person without God is.

An extremely arrogant statement. I didn't know you knew the innermost thoughts and being of all people who don't believe in God.

Again, the condescending and arrogant attitude of theists.

[BigRo]

am I without God?

[SF1900]

am I without God?

According to MOS, he knows exactly who you are without God.

Oh, this ought to be good. We get to find out who we are because MOS has some special knowledge about everyone who doesn't believe in a God. Oh, I cannot wait!

[Man of Steel]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is no God, no Heaven, no Hell.

It was all created by man.

Religion is a way to control people and make them be "good" people and give them hope and comfort about death and bad things that happen in the world.

In conclusion:
Alice and Bob are two friends talking after school. Alice tells Bob that she watched a movie the previous evening. Bob believes her easily, because he knows that movies exist, that Alice exists, and that Alice is capable and fond of watching movies. If he doubts her, he might ask for a ticket stub or a confirmation from one of her friends. If, however, Alice tells Bob that she flew on a unicorn to a fairy kingdom where she participated in an ambrosia-eating contest, and she produces a professionally-printed contest certificate and a friend who would testify to the events described, Bob would still not be inclined to believe her without strong evidence for the existence of flying unicorns, fairies and ambrosia-eating contests.

You're welcome and have a great day.

Ordinary claims require ordinary evidence (this statement in reference to the natural world/universe we live in).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (this statement in reference to the divine God of the bible).

You've now transcended naturalism with the addition given the discussion on God so the addition of "extra" is insufficient.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and are also subject to extraordinary providence that may require proactivity by examiners in order to receive special revelation of extraordinary evidence.

In other words the scientific method works for the natural world, but once you step into the divine you're on God's terms.   Refuse to submit to his will and you'll remain in the ordinary.

[Man of Steel]

Man of Steel:
I know exactly what/who a person without God is.

An extremely arrogant statement. I didn't know you knew the innermost thoughts and being of all people who don't believe in God.

Again, the condescending and arrogant attitude of theists.

See thread referenced for greater context (you were apart of it).   Discussions focused on defining atheists, but the simple definition is a person who has no belief in god(s).  I understand exactly what that means.  You're reading unnecessarily into it.

[SF1900]

Ordinary claims require ordinary evidence (this statement in reference to the natural world/universe we live in).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (this statement in reference to the divine God of the bible).

You've now transcended naturalism with the addition given the discussion on God so the addition of "extra" is insufficient.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and are also subject to extraordinary providence that may require proactivity by examiners in order to receive special revelation of extraordinary evidence.

In other words the scientific method works for the natural world, but once you step into the divine you're on God's terms.   Refuse to submit to his will and you'll remain in the ordinary.

Putting aside all that intellectual dribble. It all comes down to this:

Its about faith. You can't test faith in a lab (this is what basically you said). Thus, you cannot prove or disprove God in 100% certainty. Though no amount of evidence from naturalistic means is going to change your mind, thus your faith.

Refuse to submit to his will and you'll remain in the ordinary.

I don't know what this means. Remain in the "ordinary." This makes no sense.

[Man of Steel]

According to MOS, he knows exactly who you are without God.

Oh, this ought to be good. We get to find out who we are because MOS has some special knowledge about everyone who doesn't believe in a God. Oh, I cannot wait!

Yes, a person with no belief in god(s) is simply defined as an atheist. 

"a" - without or lack of belief
"theist" - one who beliefs in god(s)
"atheist" - a person without or lack of belief in god(s)

That's it.  You may have varying degrees or sects of atheists, but that's what "atheist" means.  I know exactly what it means.

[chaos]

Sounds like a bittered guy because of the shape of his noggin.

Schmoetoppa!

These convos are funny to me cause people like sf1900 are putting just as much, if not more, energy into convincing people something doesn't exist as the believers are into defending their beliefs.
Nobody will change because of either argument.   

On this topic, has anyone looked into the scientific studies done that confirm passages, events and people from the Bible?

[Man of Steel]

Putting aside all that intellectual dribble. It all comes down to this:

Its about faith. You can't test faith in a lab (this is what basically you said). Thus, you cannot prove or disprove God in 100% certainty. Though no amount of evidence from naturalistic means is going to change your mind, thus your faith.

Refuse to submit to his will and you'll remain in the ordinary.

I don't know what this means. Remain in the "ordinary." This makes no sense.

Yes, it is about faith and as I've told you faith doesn't remain blind when you experience the reality of Christ in your life.  Faith matures and grows rock solid....you have full assurance in the heart about the reality of God when you come to him on his terms as defined in scripture.

Can't reproduce supernatural qualities in a natural laboratory.....you're out of your depth the moment you attempt to do so.

Want to know God, then listen to the personal testimonies of believers (natural evidence) that have experienced him and decide whether or not you would like to know him also.  Then you must engage in faith as outlined in scripture (yes, you must first believe to know God).  Do so with an earnest, humble desire to submit to his will in faith and he will reveal himself to you (extraordinary evidence).    

Overload spoke of the extraordinary (supernatural), but its root is the ordinary (natural).  The extraordinary is God's realm.  Deny God and refuse his terms and all you'll understand is the ordinary (natural world).

[SF1900]

Yes, it is about faith and as I've told you faith doesn't remain blind when you experience the reality of Christ in your life.  Faith matures and grows rock solid....you have full assurance in the heart about the reality of God when you come to him on his terms as defined in scripture.

Can't reproduce supernatural qualities in a natural laboratory.....you're out of your depth the moment you attempt to do so.

Want to know God, then listen to the personal testimonies of believers (natural evidence) that have experienced him and decide whether or not you would like to know him also.  Then you must engage in faith as outlined in scripture (yes, you must first belief to know God).  Do so with an earnest, humble desire to submit to his will in faith and he will reveal himself to you (extraordinary evidence).   

Overload spoke of the extraordinary (supernatural), but its root is the ordinary (natural).  The extraordinary is God's realm.  Deny God and refuse his terms and all you'll understand is the ordinary (natural world).

Eh, I will pass. I do not need to experience any of the above experiences you have outlined. I prefer to live in the "ordinary" though I think the naturalistic world is pretty extraordinary. I don't need the metaphysical to experience the extraordinary. Every day I am alive I experience the extraordinary. Different experiences elicit different responses.

Hey, but if you want to believe in the metaphysical, more power to you! To each their own!

[Man of Steel]

Schmoetoppa!

These convos are funny to me cause people like sf1900 are putting just as much, if not more, energy into convincing people something doesn't exist as the believers are into defending their beliefs.
Nobody will change because of either argument.   

On this topic, has anyone looked into the scientific studies done that confirm passages, events and people from the Bible?

Well I'm the only "believer" speaking so in this case you're referring to me.  

As noted above already:

These threads get thousands and thousands of views.  I make sure and take the opportunity to represent my beliefs as best I'm able. 

I'm never under any delusion whatsoever that the atheists of this board will convert to Christianity because of our discussions.  I post for the sake of the viewer not replying that may not have made a decision for Christ.   

Those who challenge my beliefs simply allow the platform to share Christ to continue on an on until eventual thread death. 

I hope and occassionally receive PMs from folks who ask me questions privately about my faith because of these amusing threads that expend energy to go nowhere.   

[mazrim]

Christians believe relatively the same thing, especially those that follow the bible.

Huh? Very weird line and doesn't make sense in reference to the term Christian.

[Man of Steel]

Eh, I will pass. I do not need to experience any of the above experiences you have outlined. I prefer to live in the "ordinary" though I think the naturalistic world is pretty extraordinary. I don't need the metaphysical to experience the extraordinary. Every day I am alive I experience the extraordinary. Different experiences elicit different responses.

Hey, but if you want to believe in the metaphysical, more power to you! To each their own!

I understand.

[FitnessFrenzy]

Gentlemen, please, let's not lose sight of the horror before our eyes:

your philosophical essays are interesting, but your photoshopping skills could use some training. 

[d0nny2600]

Yes, it is about faith and as I've told you faith doesn't remain blind when you experience the reality of Christ in your life.  Faith matures and grows rock solid....you have full assurance in the heart about the reality of God when you come to him on his terms as defined in scripture.

Can't reproduce supernatural qualities in a natural laboratory.....you're out of your depth the moment you attempt to do so.

Want to know God, then listen to the personal testimonies of believers (natural evidence) that have experienced him and decide whether or not you would like to know him also.  Then you must engage in faith as outlined in scripture (yes, you must first believe to know God).  Do so with an earnest, humble desire to submit to his will in faith and he will reveal himself to you (extraordinary evidence).    

Overload spoke of the extraordinary (supernatural), but its root is the ordinary (natural).  The extraordinary is God's realm.  Deny God and refuse his terms and all you'll understand is the ordinary (natural world).

When did God reveal himself to you?

[Kwon_2]

your philosophical essays are interesting, but your photoshopping skills could use some training. 

He's no FitnessFrenzy or IronMeister, but he gets the point across!

[Man of Steel]

When did God reveal himself to you?

Wednesday, August 18, 2010 at approx 11pm.....not kidding 

[FitnessFrenzy]

x