Harley Breite - Appreciation thread

[pellius]

Hey Guys,
  As promised, but let's start with the stuff that is NOT killing bodybuilders.
  A typical professional bodybuilder DOES take more than the average person!!! THEY are NOT average.  Their bodies, through the
good grace of whatever higher being you wish to choose and superior genetics, absorb and process anabolic steroids infinitely better than
any of us could.  Most guys will look at cycles consisting of 12 week blocks.
  So here goes:
  1)  Testosterone- 1,500 mg per week
  2)  Equipoise- 1,000 mg per week
  3)  Tren- 800- 1,000 mg per week (remember- Tren is 100 mg/cc)
  4)  Masterone- 800-1,000 mg per week
  5) HGH- There are pros who can afford to do 9IU per day and will do it forever.
  That is a typical cycle but when the contest comes, things change:
  1)  Add Winstrol Depot- 800-1,000 mg per week (Remember- many guys simply take it in a sublingual manner so no shots)
  2)  Winstrol- In pill form they will do 200-400 mg per day
  3)  Anavar-  200 to 400 mg per day
  4)  Arimedex- 1 pill per day
  5)  Primobolan- 6 to 10 ccs per week.
  
  Now, that is the stuff that is NOT killing them.  Here lies the problem:
  1)  Clenbuterol- 40 mcg pills - Up to 5 pills a day is not uncommon
  2)  DNP- 3-5 pills per day but sustained use
  3)  Insulin- There are guys who actually take 15 IU per day
  4)  Diuretics- Dyazide or Lasix - Guys usually just use this a week out before a show but some rely too heavily upon it and think it will
replace strict dieting and hard cardio

  I don't think you guys will be shocked by any of this. BUT, remember, these pros NEVER come off so these dosages accumulate to astonishing sums very
quickly and when you think about today's pros who have been winning National level shows since they were literally teenagers, think about how much gear
they have taken.  The pros who have died have almost always died at contest time.  There are reasons for that.
  I hope this answers your questions and provokes many more which I would be happy to try and answer if in fact, I know the answer.
Harley

When you say 12 week cycles and then say they never come off what do you mean? You were very specific with their "on" cycles
so what would their "off" cycle be like? And say they have just completed their 12 week "cycle" but it happen to fall two months before the Olympia? Will they still go "off"?

You were very specific in the compounds and the amounts use. How did you come to that?

[HarleyBreite]

When you say 12 week cycles and then say they never come off what do you mean? You were very specific with their "on" cycles
so what would their "off" cycle be like? And say they have just completed their 12 week "cycle" but it happen to fall two months before the Olympia? Will they still go "off"?

You were very specific in the compounds and the amounts use. How did you come to that?

Dear Pellius,
  The "cycle" is really just a time frame established after the pro decides on his competition schedule.
  For example, Phil only does the Mr. O so his "cycles" are easing to map out.
  He just counts back from the day of the competition and maps out what he needs to take.
  After 12 weeks you have to mix your compounds otherwise you will simply destroy the receptors from constant abuse.
  Of course, normal peoples' receptors can't keep coming back and performing the way the receptors of the pros do.
  There is no "off" cycle for a pro as he has no natural testosterone which he can generate.  After a show, a pro will
immensely slow down for a month while taking HCG.  However, many pros believe that the absolute best time to put on quality
muscle is just after they finish a show and go from completely depleted to filling up with quality food, HGH and insulin to really add weight and size.
  I know of the compounds and their amounts from being in the "game" for the past 28 years, interacting with people, being a full time Ph.D. candidate
whose area of study was Anabolic Steroids and training with many different top National and Professional bodybuilders and talking privately to all of them.
  If somebody wanted my legal opinion or help, I would barter for information or the opportunity to watch and learn how certain things are mixed, done, etc.
Harley

[SaintAnger]

Harley is spot on per usual.  The pros were born with something most of us were not.  I think that's the problem:  the average bodybuilder cannot accept such a reality that they are... well, average.

[SaintAnger]

Dear SA,
  Without knowing whether or not, during the act, you force them to cry and say, "I'm Sorry" I can not comment on the proficiency
in which you practice the act. 
Harley

Whoa.  Things just got weird.

[pellius]

Dear Pellius,
  The "cycle" is really just a time frame established after the pro decides on his competition schedule.
  For example, Phil only does the Mr. O so his "cycles" are easing to map out.
  He just counts back from the day of the competition and maps out what he needs to take.
  After 12 weeks you have to mix your compounds otherwise you will simply destroy the receptors from constant abuse.
  Of course, normal peoples' receptors can't keep coming back and performing the way the receptors of the pros do.
  There is no "off" cycle for a pro as he has no natural testosterone which he can generate.  After a show, a pro will
immensely slow down for a month while taking HCG.  However, many pros believe that the absolute best time to put on quality
muscle is just after they finish a show and go from completely depleted to filling up with quality food, HGH and insulin to really add weight and size.
  I know of the compounds and their amounts from being in the "game" for the past 28 years, interacting with people, being a full time Ph.D. candidate
whose area of study was Anabolic Steroids and training with many different top National and Professional bodybuilders and talking privately to all of them.
  If somebody wanted my legal opinion or help, I would barter for information or the opportunity to watch and learn how certain things are mixed, done, etc.
Harley

A few things stand out. It seems the main difference between off season and on is the addition of orals. There is nobody, including myself during my juicing years, that didn't include orals in and out during a gaining/blasting cycle. Also, because you were very specific in the compounds mentioned, it seems odd that very common compounds like Deca, Anadrol, Dbol are not even mentioned. Usually they would included like EQ/Deca 1000mg/wk, Drol/Dbol 100mg/50mg/wk. In other words, they would be included substituting one for the other or using both except with orals.

Also, the amount of Testosterone. Now, this is assuming one is the typical, "non-rich" bodybuilder; one often goes heavy on the Test as it is the cheapest, least faked, and is a good "big and strong" compound.

I remember Trevor Smith publishing an intermediate cycle for the serious gym rat that just wants to get jacked. Now when I read this I keep in mind that this is published for the public and that Trevor knows many will take what he says and practice it, literally word for word. Also, I keep in mind because it's a publication open to everyone his incentive is to understate things.

1,000mg/wk of Testosterone
600mg/wk of Deca or EQ
100mg/day of Anadrol or 50mg/day of Dbol
100mg/3x/wk Tren Acetate

This would be for 8 weeks. Again, this is just for the non competitor gym rat that wants to bulk up.

[HarleyBreite]

Dear Pellius,
  The other drugs you mention, like Deca are in fact used but more so in the non-competition cycle as it really helps alleviate joint pain and the off season
is when you feel it the most.  Remember, there has to be a rotation so I gave a hypothetical cycle with real stuff and real amounts.  Much of it is inter-changeable.
  As far as Anadrol, you will not be able to convince me that there is any real Anadrol out there nor has there been for a century.
  "Real" Anadrol requires but just one pill a day, 2 a day and your nose will bleed.  Today's Anadrol is all fake and filled with either test or DBol like compounds
and salt.  Yes, salt. 
  There are 2 of the greatest drugs ever made that you can NOT find in their real make up today and they are Anadrol and Parabolan. 
  Let any old timer tell you about either of those drugs back when they were real and then show him a guy taking the new versions.  It's a joke.
Harley

[SquidVicious]

Harley, if you go to a grappling tournament and there are no competitors in your weight/age class or let's say just one other competitor, do you feel any sense of pride in "winning" or "taking second place" or any obligation to insert an asterisk next to such victories or runner up placings? I ask because I once entered a natural powerlifting competition and was the only competitor in my weight/age group and was awarded the title of national natural champion. However, I feel like a bit of a fraud publicly claiming to be the U.S. Natural Powerlifting champion knowing that no one else showed up to beat my 670lb total.

[Van_Bilderass]

  As far as Anadrol, you will not be able to convince me that there is any real Anadrol out there nor has there been for a century.
  "Real" Anadrol requires but just one pill a day, 2 a day and your nose will bleed.  Today's Anadrol is all fake and filled with either test or DBol like compounds
and salt.  Yes, salt.  
 There are 2 of the greatest drugs ever made that you can NOT find in their real make up today and they are Anadrol  and Parabolan.  
  Let any old timer tell you about either of those drugs back when they were real and then show him a guy taking the new versions.  It's a joke.
Harley

With all due respect, this is complete BS. There is plenty real Anadrol and the tren is just as real. Look at any 80s bodybuilder's pics and then look at today's bodybuilders, there is a huge difference in "graininess" which is due to tons more tren used today. The 80's guys look soft as hell in one way, though today's guys look a bit more watery at the same time due to so high test use along with the GH and insulin.

I have gotten nosebleeds from UG Anadrol after 1 or 2 days of use, and I know others who experience the same.

Of course the oldtimers think the steroids were better before, they were younger and fresher then! No steroid is going to work the same in a 50 year old vs a fresh 20 year old.

Anadrol is made by real pharma companies in several countries, for example Iran and Turkey, Thailand had Androlic too though that may be sort of a UG, depending on who you ask. They can't get ahold of real "oxymetholone" or can't synthesize it? LOL, listen to how ridiculous that sounds. This isn't the same as making weapons grade plutonium or some shit.

Real tren and Anadrol 



Fake tren and Anadrol 

[pellius]

Dear Pellius,
  The other drugs you mention, like Deca are in fact used but more so in the non-competition cycle as it really helps alleviate joint pain and the off season
is when you feel it the most.  Remember, there has to be a rotation so I gave a hypothetical cycle with real stuff and real amounts.  Much of it is inter-changeable.
  As far as Anadrol, you will not be able to convince me that there is any real Anadrol out there nor has there been for a century.
  "Real" Anadrol requires but just one pill a day, 2 a day and your nose will bleed.  Today's Anadrol is all fake and filled with either test or DBol like compounds
and salt.  Yes, salt. 
  There are 2 of the greatest drugs ever made that you can NOT find in their real make up today and they are Anadrol and Parabolan. 
  Let any old timer tell you about either of those drugs back when they were real and then show him a guy taking the new versions.  It's a joke.
Harley

Odd you should say that about anadrol. William Lewellyn and others have lab tested various compounds and real anadrol is out there and in use. It doesn't make sense to me why that one compound, often considered one the best and therefore in demand, would be discontinued around the world. Where there is a demand there will be a supply.

And, lol, my friend, I am an old timer. I am 55 years old and my serious juicing days were in the 1980s where you would be handed vials of Deca and Dbol/Drol bottles as you walked out of the office.

I soon realized that response to gear is also genetic. A friend and I went to the same doc, got the same compounds, and used the same amount. Being roommates we even pretty much ate the same food.
He blew up. Me not so much.

The one product that I got the most response with was the Syntex anadrol. I took two 50mg/tabs/day and within 3 weeks I actually looked like I lifted weights. The only problem is that it shot up my liver values and I couldn't be on it for more than 8 weeks max. Then I lost everything by the 4th week. I also believe that tolerance to gear is genetic.

Also, I never got nose bleeds and knew others that were gunning for pro level (like Benny Podda) took 200mgs/wk of anadrol but I think he understated the amount of gear he used.

[Van_Bilderass]

Odd you should say that about anadrol. William Lewellyn and others have lab tested various compounds and real anadrol is out there and in use. It doesn't make sense to me why that one compound, often considered one the best and therefore in demand, would be discontinued around the world. Where there is a demand there will be a supply.

It doesn't make sense since it's BS. There are still studies being done by the medical community with oxymetholone, would they use fake oxy? Of course not. It's available, both HG and UG.

It's just fond memories of being a pimply faced teen taking Anadrol all fresh. Of course it blew you up.

[pellius]

With all due respect, this is complete BS. There is plenty real Anadrol and the tren is just as real. Look at any 80s bodybuilder's pics and then look at today's bodybuilders, there is a huge difference in "graininess" which is due to tons more tren used today. The 80's guys look soft as hell in one way, though today's guys look a bit more watery at the same time due to so high test use along with the GH and insulin.

I have gotten nosebleeds from UG Anadrol after 1 or 2 days of use, and I know others who experience the same.

Of course the oldtimers think the steroids were better before, they were younger and fresher then! No steroid is going to work the same in a 50 year old vs a fresh 20 year old.

Anadrol is made by real pharma companies in several countries, for example Iran and Turkey, Thailand had Androlic too though that may be sort of a UG, depending on who you ask. They can't get ahold of real "oxymetholone" or can't synthesize it? LOL, listen to how ridiculous that sounds. This isn't the same as making weapons grade plutonium or some shit.

Real tren and Anadrol 



Fake tren and Anadrol 

Harley, don't take offense at Van B's tone. He's usually very measured and never gets into the pissing matches that go on here. He also has little tolerance for what he perceives as B.S. But is always open to honest debate and argument. Also, in my opinion, and this is from being on the boards since boards started in the 1990s and talking with the various gurus at Gold's Venice where I trained for many years beginning in the early 1990s, Van B is one of the most knowledgeable persons I have ever read, easily the most knowledgeable person on this board when it comes to this topic.

Also, he makes one of the arguments I made about real drol not being available. It just does not comport with common sense. I mean, what is so special about drol that it cannot be synthesized?
Again, if there is a demand for something there is going to be a supply. And I've use Parabolin in the 1980s but found the Tren Acetate much harder hitting. That makes sense when you consider
that Parabolin is a combination of various esters, each longer acting than the acetate ester. It's similar to 300 Test Prop hitting you harder and faster than 300mg of Sustanon.

[pellius]

It doesn't make sense since it's BS. There are still studies being done by the medical community with oxymetholone, would they use fake oxy? Of course not. It's available, both HG and UG.

It's just fond memories of being a pimply faced teen taking Anadrol all fresh. Of course it blew you up.

Well, I don't think Harley is BSing us as that implies he is intentionally trying to mislead us. I believe he is sincere in his
belief but just simply wrong. It is proven by lab tests/assays, and you are right about studies still be done on anadrol. Also, as I said,
it just does not comport with common sense. Why only drol, a popular hormone, not able or willing to be produce.

Some may rightly say that there is no legit Parabolan anymore but that's because Parabolin is a brand. It's like saying there is no legit
Syntex anadrol. That's also true but, like Tren, oxymethone is still available.

[Van_Bilderass]

Harley, don't take offense at Van B's tone. He's usually very measured and never gets into the pissing matches that go on here. He also has little tolerance for what he perceives as B.S. But is always open to honest debate and argument.

I said "with all due respect" as I think Harley seems like a good guy.
Don't mean to fight him, I just think this idea is BS. The first steroid I took was Russian dbol. It worked better than anything since. Of course it did, I was young and fresh. Same thing with this Para and Drol thing.

Anyone can look at pics of bodybuilders of decades past and compare to today's guys. It doesn't look like today's guys are doing fake steroids to me. Sure the GH and insulin made a difference but without good steroids they are worthless.

Well, I don't think Harley is BSing us as that he implies he is intentionally trying to mislead us.

No no, didn't mean to imply he did. I know he's sincere but I don't think he thought it through, why steroids in general seemed better "back then".

[OlympiaGym]

Unfortunately, with the question framed that way, I must retract your invitation.

So it was all a final fiction? Like your tax returns,  which the IRS is looking into?

[HarleyBreite]

Harley, if you go to a grappling tournament and there are no competitors in your weight/age class or let's say just one other competitor, do you feel any sense of pride in "winning" or "taking second place" or any obligation to insert an asterisk next to such victories or runner up placings? I ask because I once entered a natural powerlifting competition and was the only competitor in my weight/age group and was awarded the title of national natural champion. However, I feel like a bit of a fraud publicly claiming to be the U.S. Natural Powerlifting champion knowing that no one else showed up to beat my 670lb total.

Dear SquidVicious,
  Terrific question!!  
  Success in life can be correlated to how many times you actually "show up."  Of course, no one wins EVERY time he shows up (here I go again- except Rickson Gracie) but that depends
on how you define "winning."
  I notice that most of the guys who mock winning by forfeit or not having an opponent, do NOT themselves train, diet, sweat, fight, deal with the nervous tension a week before the fight, etc.
  Competitors don't have control over who shows up.  Does anyone really think I woke up sick as a dog and drove 2 hours by myself to find out I wasn't going to fight?  Did I come on GetBig
boasting about "winning" the Gold Medal?  Of course not.
  However, I took one step closer to learning how to manage my anxiety when competing.  The better I can control that, the better I can control other areas of my life.
  If you are not extrapolating your victories from one area into other areas of your life, your victories are hollow.  I go off and daydream when judges start yelling at me.
  Why?  Because I've shown up and fought guys from all over the world.  And sometimes I showed up when no one else did.  Maybe I wanted it more.  Maybe it was just coincidence.
  One thing is for sure, it is so damn easy to make excused NOT to go, NOT to do my hour of cardio in the morning, not to train BJJ in a gi late at night when I'm tired and fight my
terrible claustrophobia.  What is NOT easy is to show up.  I don't measure people by their "failures" but rather by their honest "attempts."  I am an over-achiever and that comes
only from my willingness to dream big and show up.  I lose all the time but by merely showing up, I walk away proud of myself.  Forget the Haters.
Harley

[HarleyBreite]

Dear Van_Bilderass,
  I am not offended by your response.  This is a forum for discussion and you didn't much personally attack me.
  I never said there is NO real Anadrol around.  If that is what I wrote, I am mistaken.  What I meant to write is that Anadrol is the one
drug in particular that consistently comes up fake here in the East Coast's Tri-State area.  Yes, I am aware of the Turkish pills and those too
have been faked. 
  I have personal professional experience representing Medical Doctors who have been and are currently under federal prosecution for there prescription
practices.  Even the ones who work with a lab and have you order from them with their own prescriptions are unable to procure Anadrol.
  I am not romanticizing the gear from the 80's.  There was plenty of fake gear then too and I witnessed some of America's largest gear dealers dish out
both fake and real gear from homes literally filled with cases of everything you could dream of.  The homes were storage homes in which there was no room to live.
  The Dbol from the Middle East and even Russia works, of course.  That is if you want to blow up and hold more water than the Titanic.  Even the fake stuff can work
but I am taking about efficacy.  The Syntex 2902 Anadrol would crush anything from Turkey and that is not just because I Love The 80's. 
  Companies do of course produce steroids but the control factor is ridiculous compared to the 80's and they must justify production costs to profit margins.  While the
proliferation of AIDS helps that calculation, the stringent anti-steroid laws and public hysteria deter many companies from manufacturing the products.
  I am glad this has stirred conversation and some of the differences may be due to geography but I did NOT intend to "bullshit" anyone.  These are simply my thoughts
based upon years of observation.
Harley

[che]

 As far as Anadrol, you will not be able to convince me that there is any real Anadrol out there nor has there been for a century.

  I never said there is NO real Anadrol around.   

 

[Van_Bilderass]

The Dbol from the Middle East and even Russia works, of course.  That is if you want to blow up and hold more water than the Titanic.  Even the fake stuff can work
but I am taking about efficacy.  The Syntex 2902 Anadrol would crush anything from Turkey and that is not just because I Love The 80's.  
 

Wasn't my intention to attack you at all. I just don't agree with the idea here. Here's the problem: either it's dbol or Anadrol or it is not. If it's fake yet blows you up, then what is the compound in the product? I know there are reported differences between generic and brand name drugs. Some people may prefer a certain brand of Xanax for example, even if the different brands of alprazolam were coming from the same pharmacy, all made by real FDA approved manufacturers. It's also known that some generics are made on the same production line as the brand name, yet people still have a preference for a certain brand! Same raw ingredient, just a different looking tab and bottle.
Athletes are failing drug tests all the time for methandrostenolone for example... but it's not the same compound as the Ciba Dianabol used to be? It obviously is based on highly sophisticated lab analyses. Recently an IFBB pro told me British Dispensary Androlic blew Turkish Anapolon away, whereas I thought the Androlic was the worst Anadrol I'd taken. I think both probably have been legit, it was just a different situation.

I think psychological factors affect perceived effects. Here's another example: I've seen people rave about Theramex testosterone heptylate, just an amazing testosterone product that was popular years ago. No water retention, just awesome lean gains  What these fellas didn't know is that heptylate is just another name for the enanthate ester. How do you make test enanthate that doesn't cause water retention? So I think it was perceived as unusual and exclusive and that affected perceived results. I can't think of another reason for the rave reviews. Not even Milos Sarcev seemed to know heptylate is enanthate.

I know there are lots of fakes and misdosed products on the market but there are real drugs as well, black market anabolic steroids have been tested by government labs in many countries many times after drug busts, there has been real methandrostenolone, oxymetholone, tren, everything
I haven't seen any good explanations for the reported differences between different brands of the same drugs except psychological factors. Can anyone here offer an alternate explanation?

[Las Vegas]

Wasn't my intention to attack you at all. I just don't agree with the idea here. Here's the problem: either it's dbol or Anadrol or it is not. If it's fake yet blows you up, then what is the compound in the product? I know there are reported differences between generic and brand name drugs. Some people may prefer a certain brand of Xanax for example, even if the different brands of alprazolam were coming from the same pharmacy, all made by real FDA approved manufacturers. It's also known that some generics are made on the same production line as the brand name, yet people still have a preference for a certain brand! Same raw ingredient, just a different looking tab and bottle.
Athletes are failing drug tests all the time for methandrostenolone for example... but it's not the same compound as the Ciba Dianabol used to be? It obviously is based on highly sophisticated lab analyses. Recently an IFBB pro told me British Dispensary Androlic blew Turkish Anapolon away, whereas I thought the Androlic was the worst Anadrol I'd taken. I think both probably have been legit, it was just a different situation.

I think psychological factors affect perceived effects. Here's another example: I've seen people rave about Theramex testosterone heptylate, just an amazing testosterone product that was popular years ago. No water retention, just awesome lean gains  What these fellas didn't know is that heptylate is just another name for the enanthate ester. How do you make test enanthate that doesn't cause water retention? So I think it was perceived as unusual and exclusive and that affected perceived results. I can't think of another reason for the rave reviews. Not even Milos Sarcev seemed to know heptylate is enanthate.

I know there are lots of fakes and misdosed products on the market but there are real drugs as well, black market anabolic steroids have been tested by government labs in many countries many times after drug busts, there has been real methandrostenolone, oxymetholone, tren, everything
I haven't seen any good explanations for the reported differences between different brands of the same drugs except psychological factors. Can anyone here offer an alternate explanation?

Can anyone comment on this?

[BB]

Can anyone comment on this?

I do think it is mainly psychological . Like with many products, there are pre-conceived notions about their quality, etc....  Like champion x takes French steroid xyz, so xyz must be the best. Or Chinese made xyz is made by shoeless, lead loving heathens, so it can't be as good as European xyz, and so on. Tons of old school steroid counterfeiters have commented on this effect over the years. If a product isn't selling, change the origin or attach some mythical thing to it, and suddenly it's back to being the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Las Vegas]

I do think it is mainly physiological. Like with many products there are pre-conceived notions about their quality, etc....  Like champion x takes French steroid xyz, so xyz must be the best. Or Chinese made xyz is made by shoeless, lead loving heathens, so it can't be as good as European xyz, and so on. Tons of old school steroid counterfeiters have commented on this effect over the years. If a product isn't selling, change the origin or attach some mythical thing to it, and suddenly it's back to being the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It's a funny story about the heptylate, but so predictable.

[HarleyBreite]

Hey Guys,
  I attempted to correct the confusion that I alone caused regarding my stance on Anadrol.  Of course there are countries producing real Anadrol and of course
there are guys in basement labs making Anadrol.  Is it the same quality and strength as Syntex was back when it was produced by a massive company seeking only
to make profit?  I don't think so.  And again, there are many times when the stuff is just fake.  Do I know what they put into fake gear?  No, but we've all read and heard
the rumors.  In the 80's, a bad dealer would just sell you oil and tell you it was the greatest testosterone ever.
  I am of the opinion that the American companies that produced and manufactured Anadrol, Anavar, Winstrol, etc just don't do it remotely close to what they did in the past.
  And again, here in the Tri-State area, Anadrol  has been faked for a long time.
  One other thing:  It's hard to know what is truly real and how strong or weak it is when guys are doing 4-5 different things at the same time.
Harley

[HarleyBreite]

It's a funny story about the heptylate, but so predictable.

And here is a perfect example of the different reactions experienced by different people from the same batch of gear.
I personally know a guy who took Heptylate and it resulted in a purple swelling which oozed the dirtiest and foulest product when punctured.
The guy had a scar for years and knew it was from that particular drug. 

[Las Vegas]

Hey Guys,
  I attempted to correct the confusion that I alone caused regarding my stance on Anadrol.  Of course there are countries producing real Anadrol and of course
there are guys in basement labs making Anadrol.  Is it the same quality and strength as Syntex was back when it was produced by a massive company seeking only
to make profit?  I don't think so.  And again, there are many times when the stuff is just fake.  Do I know what they put into fake gear?  No, but we've all read and heard
the rumors.  In the 80's, a bad dealer would just sell you oil and tell you it was the greatest testosterone ever.
  I am of the opinion that the American companies that produced and manufactured Anadrol, Anavar, Winstrol, etc just don't do it remotely close to what they did in the past.
  And again, here in the Tri-State area, Anadrol  has been faked for a long time.
  One other thing:  It's hard to know what is truly real and how strong or weak it is when guys are doing 4-5 different things at the same time.
Harley

Yes, this is the thing.

[Van_Bilderass]

I do think it is mainly psychological . Like with many products, there are pre-conceived notions about their quality, etc....  Like champion x takes French steroid xyz, so xyz must be the best. Or Chinese made xyz is made by shoeless, lead loving heathens, so it can't be as good as European xyz, and so on. Tons of old school steroid counterfeiters have commented on this effect over the years. If a product isn't selling, change the origin or attach some mythical thing to it, and suddenly it's back to being the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And none of us are really immune to the placebo or nocebo effect. Even with me writing what I did above I might still prefer a certain brand, maybe just because I liked the way it was packaged or the sound of the name or the taste, shape or color of the pill or whatever.

I seem to remember Duchaine selling some "East German" rare steroid which he had in fact brewed himself with common steroids. People thought it was magic.

Ric Drasin said on one of his shows how they used 1-2cc of EQ a week and were blowing up. That's 50-100mg. Must have been some strong shit, nowadays most feel you need at least 800mg to even notice it. Nah, selective memory, placebo etc.

Craig Titus said there's no tren on the market period. Only Negma Para was tren, all this new "tren" was just relabeled EQ.