Author Topic: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread  (Read 597123 times)

TuHolmes

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2000 on: October 22, 2015, 11:39:10 PM »
Not sure how it works in the USA but a lawyer cant knowingly defend a client he knows is guilty with a not guilty plea as he would be deliberately lying to a court and that's illegal.

That is not the case in the US.

Exactly. Semantics, not ethics.

Not necessarily.

Ethically it is a defense attorneys responsibility to give the best defense possible.

SF1900

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2001 on: October 22, 2015, 11:42:00 PM »
That is not the case in the US.

Not necessarily.

Ethically it is a defense attorneys responsibility to give the best defense possible.

So, its obvious that different cultures define "lying" differently when it comes to the law. America does not have a monopoly on whether or not its considered a lie. As stated by "Be There" in his culture, its clearly considered a lie. I agree that it is a lie when you remove all the mumbo jumbo law nonsense. The law has a way of finding a loophole for everything.
X

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2002 on: October 22, 2015, 11:43:51 PM »
That is not the case in the US.

Not necessarily.

Ethically it is a defense attorneys responsibility to give the best defense possible.

https://www.calbarxap.com/applications/calbar/pdfs/code_section_6068.pdf
Quote
(d) To employ, for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided
to him or her those means only as are consistent with truth, and
never to seek to mislead the judge or any judicial officer by an
artifice or false statement of fact or law

Wouldn't entering a not guilty plea when knowing a client is guilty be a breach of this?

Im sure Harley will clear it up for us.

TuHolmes

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2003 on: October 22, 2015, 11:56:18 PM »
https://www.calbarxap.com/applications/calbar/pdfs/code_section_6068.pdf
Wouldn't entering a not guilty plea when knowing a client is guilty be a breach of this?

Im sure Harley will clear it up for us.

The plea is the client's. Not the attorney's.

So I don't believe so.

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2004 on: October 22, 2015, 11:57:44 PM »
So, its obvious that different cultures define "lying" differently when it comes to the law. America does not have a monopoly on whether or not its considered a lie. As stated by "Be There" in his culture, its clearly considered a lie. I agree that it is a lie when you remove all the mumbo jumbo law nonsense. The law has a way of finding a loophole for everything.
Lying is lying.
Guilty and guilty in law are different.
Someone is only technically guilty in law when a prosecutor has convinced a judge or jury of a persons guilt.
As for defending a guilty client, I suppose a lawyer could do it but he couldn't at any stage lie during his defence of his client.

Lawyers wont fare well if they knowingly defend guilty people.
http://info.sfcriminallawspecialist.com/bid/82057/How-Lawyers-Defend-a-Guilty-Client-in-a-Criminal-Case


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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2005 on: October 23, 2015, 12:00:37 AM »
The plea is the client's. Not the attorney's.

So I don't believe so.
Agreed, its a minefield, see my last post.
It would appear they can defend but at no point can they lie.
If the prosecuting attorney got wind that the defence knew the client was guilty then he would only need to ask and he would have to confirm his clients guilt.
He simply cannot lie about it.

TuHolmes

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2006 on: October 23, 2015, 12:02:55 AM »
Agreed, its a minefield, see my last post.
It would appear they can defend but at no point can they lie.
If the prosecuting attorney got wind that the defence knew the client was guilty then he would only need to ask and he would have to confirm his clients guilt.
He simply cannot lie about it.

I believe that is correct but I don't believe that is a question that can be asked of an attorney either.

pellius

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2007 on: October 23, 2015, 12:07:09 AM »
Ok, Tu, not "lie" by definition. Fine. Now, I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT HARLEY specifically, but let me pose a hypothetical:

Client inadvertently admits he killed the guy, right, so you KNOW he's guilty. Is it a lie (by omission) if you don't share this during the trial?

Simply trying to cut through the bullshit is all.

I don't think it is a lie to not volunteer information. There may be some legal issue but it's not a lie. If you take the oath to "Tell the truth; the WHOLE truth"; and nothing but the truth. Then there might be an issue

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2008 on: October 23, 2015, 12:10:35 AM »
I believe that is correct but I don't believe that is a question that can be asked of an attorney either.
I'm pretty sure a judge can ask anything he likes from a lawyer, a lawyers first duty is still to the court.

TuHolmes

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2009 on: October 23, 2015, 12:13:48 AM »
I'm pretty sure a judge can ask anything he likes from a lawyer, a lawyers first duty is still to the court.

I don't think that's the case.

I suspect Harley can clear this up.

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2010 on: October 23, 2015, 12:28:43 AM »
I don't think that's the case.

I suspect Harley can clear this up.


1. The lawyer's duty to the court is paramount. It is acknowledged that there may be situations in which this duty is inconsistent with the lawyer's duty to their client. However, as Mason CJ observed in Giannerelli v Wraith (1988) 165 CLR 543, 556: 'The duty to the court is paramount and must be performed, even if the client gives instructions to the contrary'.
2. A recognition of the lawyer's duty to the court does not imply that the duty is owed to a particular judge. The duty is actually owed to the community in general as a matter of the public interest in the administration of justice. When it enforces the duty a court will act as a guardian of the due administration of justice.
3. Lawyers' duties to the court are legal duties imposed under the general law. They are personal in nature and non-delegable.
4. A breach of the lawyer's duty to the court constitutes unlawful conduct. Such conduct may not necessarily be unethical. Furthermore, unethical conduct may not necessarily be unlawful.
5. Breach of a lawyer's duty to the court is generally the subject of sanction imposed by summary procedure.
6. A court's jurisdiction to proceed summarily against a lawyer who has breached his or her duty to the court is punitive, as well as compensatory.

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2011 on: October 23, 2015, 12:37:32 AM »
http://www.advocates.ca/assets/files/pdf/bibliography/Duty_to_Court.pdf

APPENDIX A
THE LAW SOCIETY OF UPPER CANADA'S RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT
EXCERPTS OF RULE 4 – RELATIONSHIP TO THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Advocacy
4.01 (2) When acting as an advocate, a lawyer shall not
(a) abuse the process of the tribunal by instituting or prosecuting proceedings which,
although legal in themselves, are clearly motivated by malice on the part of the client and
are brought solely for the purpose of injuring the other party,
(b) knowingly assist or permit the client to do anything that the lawyer considers to be
dishonest or dishonourable,
(c) appear before a judicial officer when the lawyer, the lawyer's associates or the client
have business or personal relationships with the officer that give rise to or might
reasonably appear to give rise to pressure, influence, or inducement affecting the
impartiality of the officer,
(d) endeavour or allow anyone else to endeavour, directly or indirectly, to influence the
decision or action of a tribunal or any of its officials in any case or matter by any means
other than open persuasion as an advocate,
(e) knowingly attempt to deceive a tribunal or influence the course of justice by offering
false evidence, misstating facts or law, presenting or relying upon a false or deceptive
affidavit, suppressing what ought to be disclosed, or otherwise assisting in any fraud,
crime, or illegal conduct,
(f) knowingly misstate the contents of a document, the testimony of a witness, the
substance of an argument, or the provisions of a statute or like authority,
(g) knowingly assert as true a fact when its truth cannot reasonably be supported by the
evidence or as a matter of which notice may be taken by the tribunal,
(h) deliberately refrain from informing the tribunal of any binding authority that the
lawyer considers to be directly on point and that has not been mentioned by an opponent,
(i) dissuade a witness from giving evidence or advise a witness to be absent,
(j) knowingly permit a witness or party to be presented in a false or misleading way or to
impersonate another,
(k) needlessly abuse, hector, or harass a witness,
(l) when representing a complainant or potential complainant, attempt to gain a benefit for
the complainant by threatening the laying of a criminal charge or by offering to seek or to
procure the withdrawal of a criminal charge, and
- 19 -
(m) needlessly inconvenience a witness
Courtesy
4.01 (6) A lawyer shall be courteous, civil, and act in good faith to the tribunal and with all
persons with whom the lawyer has dealings in the course of litigation.
Encouraging Respect for the Administration of Justice
4.06(1) A lawyer shall encourage public respect for and try to improve the administration of
justice.

The Ugly

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2012 on: October 23, 2015, 12:41:11 AM »
Just a silly game is all.

Simple Simon

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2013 on: October 23, 2015, 12:44:28 AM »
Just a silly game is all.

But it keeps the brain occupied.
You should try it.

HarleyBreite

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2014 on: October 23, 2015, 05:04:19 AM »
I don't think "lie" is a fair description.

Perhaps be a little vague, but at the same time, you don't want to tip your hand.

If you are a defense attorney, and a good one (Of which I believe Harley to be), then you don't give the prosecution anything until required.

It is the job of the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed the crime they are accused of. If for instance, I know for a fact that I have, during my discovery phase, perhaps found that one piece of evidence or testimony that will completely exonerate my client, you do it in court where the jury can hear it.

Of course there are times where you do certain things in chambers, but still, in general, if for whatever reason, you find the ace after the grand jury, you don't show it during statements to the public. You show it when it can take the prosecution completely off their game.



Dear TuHolmes,
  Excellent points and wonderful trial strategy!!! 
  SF1900 and I never have any problems and I was sort of joking in my response to him.
  A lawyer isn't lying at the time the State hasn't proven anything unless he himself knows for a fact, 100% that what he says isn't true.
  How would I know if my client were there? Even if he says he was there, I myself, wasn't there.
  I don't concede anything.  Let the State prove my client wasn't in Detroit is what I always say.
Harley

HarleyBreite

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2015 on: October 23, 2015, 05:10:27 AM »
Hey Guys,
  What a fascinating legal and moral debate going on!!!  You guys are far more interesting than actual lawyers who bore
the hell out of everyone except themselves.
  I am going to clear all this up in a response. 
  But now, I have to go get my car washed as I have just joined the Ferrari Club of America and will attend tomorrow's
Fall Foliage Rally as my introduction to the Club.
  They say they have about 30 Ferraris that will join in for coffee at some exotic dealership and then an hour and half ride
to some place for a nice lunch.
  I already asked if this group was a bunch of pretentious assholes and the lady said absolutely not.
Harley

Yamcha

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2016 on: October 23, 2015, 05:12:15 AM »
Hey Guys,
  What a fascinating legal and moral debate going on!!!  You guys are far more interesting than actual lawyers who bore
the hell out of everyone except themselves.
  I am going to clear all this up in a response. 
  But now, I have to go get my car washed as I have just joined the Ferrari Club of America and will attend tomorrow's
Fall Foliage Rally as my introduction to the Club.
  They say they have about 30 Ferraris that will join in for coffee at some exotic dealership and then an hour and half ride
to some place for a nice lunch.
  I already asked if this group was a bunch of pretentious assholes and the lady said absolutely not.
Harley

 :D
a

The Ugly

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2017 on: October 23, 2015, 10:52:53 AM »
But it keeps the brain occupied.
You should try it.

By all means, then. Enjoy.

calfzilla

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2018 on: October 23, 2015, 12:58:19 PM »
Hey Guys,
  What a fascinating legal and moral debate going on!!!  You guys are far more interesting than actual lawyers who bore
the hell out of everyone except themselves.
  I am going to clear all this up in a response. 
  But now, I have to go get my car washed as I have just joined the Ferrari Club of America and will attend tomorrow's
Fall Foliage Rally as my introduction to the Club.
  They say they have about 30 Ferraris that will join in for coffee at some exotic dealership and then an hour and half ride
to some place for a nice lunch.
  I already asked if this group was a bunch of pretentious assholes and the lady said absolutely not.
Harley

Sounds fun. I'm hoping to buy a corvette soon and join a similar club.

HarleyBreite

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2019 on: October 23, 2015, 04:35:15 PM »
Dear Broseph,
   I have NOT discussed a single thing that the State itself stated in a public courtroom.
   Imagine knowing all the facts.
Harley

HarleyBreite

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2020 on: October 23, 2015, 05:28:06 PM »
Dear Broseph,
  Pretty simple.  Nothing here is new.  All of it has been forwarded for public consumption by the State.
All I have said here is that it is a tragedy that a 21 year old kid lost his life and that my client has professed his innocence and
we will wait to see if the State can actually prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt.
Harley

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2021 on: October 23, 2015, 05:34:14 PM »
Dear Broseph,
  Pretty simple.  Nothing here is new.  All of it has been forwarded for public consumption by the State.
All I have said here is that it is a tragedy that a 21 year old kid lost his life and that my client has professed his innocence and
we will wait to see if the State can actually prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt.
Harley

Another wrongly-accused member of the Nuffin family?

Las Vegas

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2022 on: October 23, 2015, 05:39:12 PM »
Harley, here are 83 images in a gallery (look for the Page 1, 2, 3, above and below pics, on the right)

http://northjersey.mycapture.com/mycapture/folder.asp?event=1808931&CategoryID=21527&view=1

Las Vegas

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2023 on: October 23, 2015, 05:41:49 PM »
Was the Vera Ames-Garnes case related to the profiling situation, Harley?  (one of the gallery pics is of you testifying in that)

HarleyBreite

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Re: Harley Breite - Appreciation thread
« Reply #2024 on: October 23, 2015, 06:21:11 PM »
Was the Vera Ames-Garnes case related to the profiling situation, Harley?  (one of the gallery pics is of you testifying in that)

Dear Las Vegas,
  You reference a very controversial period in my life.
  Back in the end of the 1990's, my friend, a Muslim, ran for Mayor of a historically White-Dutch town.  I supported him and he pulled off an upset and won.
  He then asked if I wished to be Judge or Prosecutor of the tiny town, Prospect Park.  I declined being a Judge as I don't ever like to "judge" people and it
would have meant my having to stop my criminal defense practice.  I suggested my friend and Mentor, Robert Baer.  We each took our respective positions
in a hail of political attacks as the Old Dutch didn't know us and me being an unknown Jewish lawyer didn't sit well with them.
  Before my first day as Municipal Prosecutor (a once a week job paying $10K per year),  I met with the Police Chief and told him that the Racial Profiling of
Blacks and Hispanics simply driving over the hill from Paterson and crossing through this 5 by 14 block town would have to stop.  Prospect Park had long been
known for racial profiling but it was going to end now.
  The Chief and the Department immediately went to war with me.  I would see 14 tickets issued on 1 motor vehicle stop and then speak to the Defendant who
would say he was threatened to have the K9 Unit come and "if he got bit, well, that's an accident that sometimes happens."
  I began dismissing each and every ticket I suspected was dirty.  Well, the Chief played his politics and the Assignment Judge invested ALL of my plea bargains
over a 2 year period to catch me doing something illegal.  There has NEVER been such an investigation into any NJ Municipal Prosecutor in the history of NJ.  The
Assignment Judge came up with NOTHING.
  Then, the County Prosecutor and I went to war in the newspapers as I was told to shut up and not jeopardize my future legal career.  I was told by many, "You're a
Jewish, white attorney making a career for yourself.  Why do you want to lose it all for some blacks and Puerto Ricans?"  I told them, "Because you and anyone else who
thinks like that is a filthy animal."  That did not go over big with the County Prosecutor and The Assignment Judge.
  I publicized Racial Profiling in the papers which led to a huge war (all of this can be corroborated by newspaper articles between 1999 and 2000).  I forced the town to hire
an independent investigator who concluded that there was indeed, a problem with some members of the police force.
  The County Prosecutor then sent one of his people to "watch" me in court.  I then told the press that the County Prosecutor, "in his 12 years there, has never once tried a single
case before a jury and now sends his bag carrier to keep an eye on me."  I then stopped going to court and let the Assistant Prosecutor do all the work which he didn't want to do
as it was a night job for which he didn't get paid.  I still got paid and donated my paychecks to the Animal Control Center.  
  Just 2 months later, the NJ Supreme Court passed a law (State v. Clark[e]) that said that any Municipal Prosecutor could no longer practice criminal defense within the same county
as his court.  This led to a mass exodus of Municipal Prosecutors given the measly pay compared to one's private practice.
  Soon after I left, Office Richard Hayman, one of my loudest enemies, was indicted and pled guilty to having sex with a young girl in his police car while on duty.  He was forced to resign in disgrace.
  The then Captain, last name Franco, (god father to the County Prosecutor's son), was indicted and pled guilty to beating up a juvenile who he had chained to a wall.  
  I promised I wouldn't stand for Racial Profiling and I didn't.  As Malcolm X said when JFK was assassinated, "The chickens have come home to roost."
  And by the way, I am the only Municipal Prosecutor in the entire State of New Jersey to leave and not receive a plague from the police department and a proclamation from the town.
  I later testified in court when one of those officers whose nickname was "The Grand Master" (a KKK reference) pulled over and abused a Black motorist and then abused a Black Councilwoman.
  I was told that testifying like that would also ruin my career.  I may not be much, but I am still here and on my own terms!!!!
Harley