Marriage

[SF1900]

Its the same thing in the Jewish Orthodox community when it comes to child molestation.

If a child is molested and comes forth, they are expected via their community, to bring the charges to the rabbinical court. The rabbinical court then decides if the child who is molested should go to the authorities. In many instances, they are told to keep quiet. Now, the child may disobey the rabbinical court and go to the authorities anyway, but this often leads to ex-communication from the community and place of worship. Thus, the child and parents fear ex-communication and keeps their mouth closed and the vicious cycle continues.

Similarly, many people who are deeply religious may not get a divorce out of fear or shame and may stay in relationships despite being unhappy. They may live with this their whole lives. Thus, the need to stay connected to one's church and community most likely outweighs the need to get a divorce. So, these people stay in unhappy, and not successful marriages. And until you can take this into account as an extraneous variable, your argument holds little weight.

These are MAJOR issues in religious institutions and communities.

[f450]

Again, not at all what I stated.  You are straw manning the argument and putting words in my mouth.

My post above reiterates what I said previously.  I did not speak of infallibility, I spoke of high success rates in marriage when established under God and with love.

Sorry this is BS. The church is one of the main reasons men are so emasculated and trodden on by their wives. Please refrain from using your own personal experience and those of your small circle ( small when compared to the rest of the country) to prop up western marriage when the evidence and stats are out there.

50% success rate. A coin toss. Would you get on a plane with a 50% chance of safe arrival? And 70% of those "no fault" divorces initiated by the wives cus they have everything to gain from it.

Just say you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Don't lead other men down the path of destruction because you won the lottery. That is evil and as you are supposedly a man of God, you should be leading men away from it.

What kind of devil would encourage someone to get on a plane with a 50% chance of crashing? Wouldn't you consider the person evil, wicked and callous?

[Bulgarian_enforcer]

Facebook is da devil!

[Man of Steel]

Logical fallacy. Can't point to your marriage and your friends marriage to say "marriage with God produces higher success rate and more marriage stability."

I can easily point to many nonreligious unions and say the same thing about them.

Do you have any evidence other than anecdotal? No, you don't. Until then, you don't have much to go on.

Can you demonstrate this, other than anecdotal evidence?

You also failed to take into account and NOT address the fact, which I discussed above,  that many people who are in religious marriages may stay married due to fear of being ex-communicated from their church and/or community. I suspect this is a major problem, and have a sneaking suspicion that many religious women may keep quiet if they are in unhappy marriages. Religion instills this kind of fear and shame in people. Just because two people are together it does not mean its a successful or happy marriage. Thus, you can't assume because you see two religious people who are married, that it is happy or successful. You know, the whole "skeletons in closet" sort of thing.

You simply reject the evidence because it doesn't conform with your worldview, but that doesn't negate anything I've said and your inappropriate charge of a logical fallacy doesn't hold any water.

I provided multiple real life examples and you simply respond with "nope doesn't count".  That's a meaningless tactic LOL.

Your anecdotal bit is laughable to me.  Genuinely, head shakingly, eye rollingly laughable.    "Do you have scientific studies to back up your claims?"  LOL!!  Makes me laugh.  Let's sterilize this argument under the guise of "science".    I'll leave that for the world.    

Here's the reality, the anecdotal evidence is greatest resource people struggling in marriage can utilize.  Your true marriage experts are those that have lived out happy marriages for years and years and years.  

If a couple truly wants to save their marriage then go talk to some elderly couples that have been happily married for 75 years and have seen it all.  Or you can go get a textbook LOL. 

[Man of Steel]

Sorry this is BS. The church is one of the main reasons men are so emasculated and trodden on by their wives. Please refrain from using your own personal experience and those of your small circle ( small when compared to the rest of the country) to prop up western marriage when the evidence and stats are out there.

50% success rate. A coin toss. Would you get on a plane with a 50% chance of safe arrival? And 70% of those "no fault" divorces initiated by the wives cus they have everything to gain from it.

Just say you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Don't lead other men down the path of destruction because you won the lottery. That is evil and as you are supposedly a man of God, you should be leading men away from it.

What kind of devil would encourage someone to get on a plane with a 50% chance of crashing? Wouldn't you consider the person evil, wicked and callous?

You get on the plane when you fully love and trust your copilot and the plane.

[SF1900]

You simply reject the evidence because it doesn't conform with your worldview, but that doesn't negate anything I've said and your inappropriate charge of a logical fallacy doesn't hold any water.

I provided multiple real life examples and you simply respond with "nope doesn't count".  That's a meaningless tactic LOL.

Your anecdotal bit is laughable to me.  Genuinely, head shakingly, eye rollingly laughable.   "Do you have scientific studies to back up your claims?"  LOL!!  Makes me laugh.  Let's sterilize this argument under the guise of "science".   Here's the reality, the anecdotal evidence is greatest resource people struggling in marriage can utilize.  Your true marriage experts are those that have lived out happy marriages for years and years and years.  

If a couple truly wants to save their marriage then go talk to some elderly couples that have been happily married for 75 years and have seen it all.  Or go get a textbook LOL.

And, yes, you still can't provide evidence. Look, you can point to your marriage and a few others, but it still doesn't prove your point. You don't have the numbers to back up your view. Plain and simple. If there was a study that showed that religious marriages are WAY more successful than marriage ones, I bet you would have posted it ASAP!! And don't think otherwise.  

Again, you still have not proven anything, as you can't demonstrate that religious people are more happy in marriage due to a number of extraneous variables (shame and fear of divorce, which is huge in religious communities, thereby causing people to stay married, despite being unhappy). Because I can easily point to many nonreligious couples who are happier than religious couples. Again, it gets us nowhere.

This is what religious people do: they make a claim, then when they are called out to present evidence, they present a few cases from their lives, and cross their arms and say "thats good enough." Well, sorry, it really isn't. Then when they get challenged, they say, "lol at the arrogant atheist." I know, I know, its shitty that people are just not going to accept your worldview, which does not conform to the reality as a whole. I am sure you wished we lived in the 17th century where such a claim would never be ridiculed.  

Also, you just don't go to a textbook for answers. You do realize that research has investigated marriage by talking to couples who have been married for 75 years? Where do you think they get their data from? They examine relationships that have been successful. They examine marriages that have been unsuccessful. Its not perfect, but its better than your method--"my friend is religious and has a happy marriage, therefore relgious marriages last longer." haha lol. Brilliant. The craziness of religious people lol. Never ceases to amaze me. Wow! 

[Grape Ape]

Sorry this is BS. The church is one of the main reasons men are so emasculated and trodden on by their wives. Please refrain from using your own personal experience and those of your small circle ( small when compared to the rest of the country) to prop up western marriage when the evidence and stats are out there.

50% success rate. A coin toss. Would you get on a plane with a 50% chance of safe arrival? And 70% of those "no fault" divorces initiated by the wives cus they have everything to gain from it.

Just say you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Don't lead other men down the path of destruction because you won the lottery. That is evil and as you are supposedly a man of God, you should be leading men away from it.

What kind of devil would encourage someone to get on a plane with a 50% chance of crashing? Wouldn't you consider the person evil, wicked and callous?

Very poor analogy.  Many of these divorces are harmless, mistakes that made and quickly fixed, with little lingering damage. Not all are catastrophic.

[10pints]

Religion requires the suspension of logical thought. Not a shocker that the religious eschew the requirement of evidence to substantiate their ludicrous world views.

[Man of Steel]

And, yes, you still can't provide evidence. Look, you can point to your marriage and a few others, but it still doesn't prove your point. You don't have the numbers to back up your view. Plain and simple. If there was a study that showed that religious marriages are WAY more successful than marriage ones, I bet you would have posted it ASAP!! And don't think otherwise. 

Again, you still have not proven anything, as you can't demonstrate that religious people are more happy in marriage due to a number of extraneous variables (shame and fear of divorce, which is huge in religious communities, thereby causing people to stay married, despite being unhappy). Because I can easily point to many nonreligious couples who are happier than religious couples. Again, it gets us nowhere.

This is what religious people do: they make a claim, then when they are called out to present evidence, they present a few cases from their lives, and cross their arms and say "thats good enough." Well, sorry, it really isn't. Then when they get challenged, they say, "lol at the arrogant atheist." I know, I know, its shitty that people are just not going to accept your worldview, which does not conform to the reality as a whole. I am sure you wished we lived in the 17th century where such a claim would never be ridiculed. 

Also, you just don't go to a textbook for answers. You do realize that research has investigated marriage by talking to couples who have been married for 75 years? Where do you think they get their data from? They examine relationships that have been successful. They examine marriages that have been unsuccessful. Its not perfect, but its better than your method--"my friend is religious and has a happy marriage, therefore relgious marriages last longer." haha lol. Brilliant. The craziness of religious people lol. Never ceases to amaze me. Wow! 

I can point to hundreds and hundreds of other mariages.  My church alone is filled with hundreds and hundreds of folks committed to God and happily married under him.  That's one church and tons of examples.   

Quit with the "this is what religious people do" nonsense....it's in every one of your religious posts.   Trust me, people on this board know your primary aim is to twist words and straw man arguments.

You're out of your depth on this topic.     

[SF1900]

I can point to hundreds and hundreds of other mariages.  My church alone is filled with hundreds and hundreds of folks committed to God and happily married under him.  That's one church and tons of examples.  

Quit with the "this is what religious people do" nonsense....it's in every one of your religious posts.   Trust me, people on this board know your primary aim is to twist words and straw man arguments.

You're out of your depth on this topic.      

You have no evidence that they are happily married because they have been together for X amount of years. How do you know they are happy? How do you know they are not just staying married because they feel like they need to? They may feel a strong sense of church community and fear that they will lose those ties if they get divorced.

And I can point to hundreds of nonreligious marriages where people are happy. Again, where does this get us? Nowhere.

You have no demonstrable evidence that religious couples are more happy or stay together longer than nonreligious ones. All you have is your anecdotal evidence, which is extremely weak. You then try to justify your statement by pointing to HUNDREDS of marriages in your church. Wow. You know these hundreds of couples in depth? You have talked to all of them in such a manner, that you have determined that they are all happy? Or are you just going by based on what you observe one day a week in church? Unless you see and talk to these HUNDREDS of couples every day and have intimate knowledge about each of their relationships? WOW!! You must be divinely inspired to possess such wordly knowledge.

Sounds like a bunch of hooey to me. You get backed into a corner, can't defend your proposition, then cross your arms!  

It seems like you're out of depth with this topic. 

[Man of Steel]

You have no demonstrable evidence that religious couples are more happy or stay together longer than nonreligious ones.

LOL, so desperate to make a point.  

This isn't the argument.  You have straw manned the argument at hand so you can make a point.  I've told you this publically and privately twice today.

You have morphed the argument into something it isn't so you can make a case against me (big shocker   ) and I'm not allowing you to do that (as usual).

Then you pepper it with your patented red herring of "this is what religious people do".    It's foolishness, I see right through it every time and bat it away just as casually.

You will reject any evidence I put forth because of your worldview, presuppositions and anti-theism stance.....that is your normal.

As I told you privately:

Have marriage all figured out?  Oh no, marriage according to the world is a mystery to me.  That's why we have experts studying it and counseling and therapy and all sorts of resources to help people cope.   We have volumes of sociological and psychological studies to assist folks.  We have doctors, counselors and therapists devoted to marriage counseling.  The world has a ton of study, research and resources available to it.

Thing is, I've needed none of it.  Have just lived my life in accordance with God's will and put him first. Just takes care of itself and unfortunately some folks resent me for it.  Not my problem.

Marriage under God with love between partners and family....that's crystal clear to me.  I've lived it out and demonstrated it for others....it's a piece of cake for me.   I've witnessed great grandparents, great aunts and uncles, grandparents, parents, siblings, friends, coworkers, etc....do the same in their marriages under God with love.  Unfortunately every single divorce in my family has been initially grounded in a marriage not founded in God.  Coincidence?  LOL, no.

Not saying marriages without God can't be happy and lifelong, but the field of study you mention attests to the lack of success in it.....worldy marriage often requires it.   Again, not impossible to sustain a happy devoted marriage without God, but generally that type of marriage is far less successful.      

I give you real life examples in my own life and some of y'all say "that doesn't count".  Balogna!    I cut out the middle man and give you meat that similar sociological stats are based upon and you reject it because a sociologist hasn't cut your steak for you.  Sorry, but my grandparents marriage wasn't documented in the New England Journal of Medicine or Sociology Today LOL!  Just foolishness....arguing to argue is all this is.

[bigmc]

Very poor analogy.  Many of these divorces are harmless, mistakes that made and quickly fixed, with little lingering damage. Not all are catastrophic.

yes but the loneliness and hopelessness smothers you in a blanket of despair

a whirling vortex of darkness whispering sweet suffering in your ear

the future that was once full of hope lost forever





that beng said you get to smash loads of sluts  

[Yamcha]

It's just painful to mentally picture 30-40 year olds in bars trying to pick up women.
We all know THAT GUY.
Brags about how fun it is, but in reality he is a sad, lonely man.

[SF1900]

LOL, so desperate to make a point.  

This isn't the argument.  You have straw manned the argument at hand so you can make a point.  I've told you this publically and privately twice today.

You have morphed the argument into something it isn't so you can make a case against me (big shocker   ) and I'm not allowing you to do that (as usual).

Then you pepper it with your patented red herring of "this is what religious people do".    It's foolishness, I see right through it every time and bat it away just as casually.

You will reject any evidence I put forth because of your worldview, presuppositions and anti-theism stance.....that is your normal.

As I told you privately:

You said, "Again, not impossible to sustain a happy devoted marriage without God, but generally that type of marriage is far less successful."

Again, you have no way to prove this. That is what it ALL comes down to. I have called you on this ONE statement and you cannot prove anything. Just provide anecdotal evidence. That is not enough to make such a statement about marriage in GENERAL. I am sorry that you think it is. It is not.

At the end of the day you have no solid evidence to support the statement above. That is what it really comes down to.   If you did, you would have presented that solid evidence. I bet you if there was some groundbreaking study that proved your proposition, you'd be posting it right now lol. There is none. Thus, you rely on weak forms of evidence, and expect everyone to accept it without being challenged. Again, your statement holds no water, except in your own mind.

[Man of Steel]

You said, "Again, not impossible to sustain a happy devoted marriage without God, but generally that type of marriage is far less successful."

Again, you have no way to prove this. That is what it ALL comes down to. I have called you on this ONE statement and you cannot prove anything. Just provide anecdotal evidence. That is not enough to make such a statement about marriage in GENERAL. I am sorry that you think it is. It is not.

At the end of the day you have no solid evidence to support the statement above. That is what it really comes down to.   If you did, you would have presented that solid evidence.

Repost my post from above with all of it.    Ah, who cares?  It's already there.
 
Silly....just silly tactics.    You're not fooling anyone.  

I find it funny that you've neglected to leave "love" out the argument and simply focus only on God.....it's a straw man, bait and switch tactic.   When my original premise included about 5 statements of love.  

You want me to continue arguing against your invented, straw man argument that I've already answered.   And because I answered you and it didn't trap me then you twist it further in saying I can't provide non-anecdotal evidence that "God only" marriages are more successful than "marriages without God".  Was never what I argued, was never the original discussion.  

You're morphing, twisting and straw manning this into something I never said or defended.  You want it that way because then you can argue against me....without it you're out of your depth.  

[Grape Ape]

yes but the loneliness and hopelessness smothers you in a blanket of despair
a whirling vortex of darkness whispering sweet suffering in your ear
the future that was once full of hope lost forever





that beng said you get to smash loads of sluts  

This is so eloquent, it deserves graphical representation

[SF1900]

Repost my post from above with all of it.    Ah, who cares?  It's already there.
 
Silly....just silly tactics.    You're not fooling anyone. 

And, yet, after all of this, you still have no evidence to support your proposition.

Trust me, you're not fooling anyone, since you practically get called out in every thread, and do your typical "song and dance" routine. 

Makes claim. Asked to present evidence. Cant present sound evidence. Backs off and says, "youre not fooling anyone." haha lol. I love it! 

[Man of Steel]

And, yet, after all of this, you still have no evidence to support your proposition.

Trust me, you're not fooling anyone, since you practically get called out in every thread, and do your typical "song and dance" routine.  

Makes claim. Asked to present evidence. Cant present sound evidence. Backs off and says, "youre not fooling anyone." haha lol. I love it!  

Again repost my entire reply.    Forget it, same song different verse.  

You're continued straw manning and twisting is intellectual cowardice at its finest.

[SF1900]

Again repost my entire reply.    Forget it, same song different verse.  

You're continued straw manning and twisting is intellectual cowardice at its finest.

Your entire reply doesn't matter. You have many hypotheses in your entire reply.

I am specifically talking about this reply: "Again, not impossible to sustain a happy devoted marriage without God, but generally that type of marriage is far less successful."

You do realize that you can have a very long reply and discuss different hypotheses within one statement. Thus, this is the statement that I want evidence for. You can address isolated statements in one reply. Yet, you still can't provide evidence for this one statement. Again, your same old "song and dance." 

[Man of Steel]

Your entire reply doesn't matter. You have many hypotheses in your entire reply.

I am specifically talking about this reply: "Again, not impossible to sustain a happy devoted marriage without God, but generally that type of marriage is far less successful."

You do realize that you can have a very long reply and discuss different hypotheses within one statement. Thus, this is the statement that I want evidence for. You can address isolated statements in one reply. Yet, you still can't provide evidence for this one statement. Again, your same old "song and dance."  

I told you that the "wealth of study on marriage", the number of marriage counselors, marital counseling groups, therapists, sociologists and psychologists devoted to the study of marriage attests to the world's need for help in marriage because clearly the world has a hard time getting it right on their own.

I then give you a dozen generation-spanning examples of lasting, loving, God-fearing marriages that have worked without a single day of any worldly marital counseling or studying and you simply cry, "doesn't count".  LOL, ok....because you said so.    I then speak of hundreds of marriages in a single church successful for the exact same reason and you reply with "I can find hundreds of nonbelievers that are married that are happy without God".  Never said you couldn't...wasn't the argument and further I affirmed that I agreed with that notion.   You want me to provide you non-anecdotal evidence that "marriage under God (conveniently leaving out notion of "love") works better than marriages without God".   There isn't sufficient evidence from me that you will accept because of my faith....that's all it's about.  Marriage is extremely personal and any examples I give from my family or church or friends or coworkers would all be lumped under the "non acceptable" category of "anecdotal".    The entire argument is grounded upon a straw man that was twisted and invented for your own end.

What I posited was the following (my exact posts):

Marriage is easy when you.....oh what's that word....tip of my tongue.........always forget it.......wait, got it...."love".......yes, when you actually "love" the person you marry it's easy.

Now, if you "love" the person and get married in accordance with......wait.....what's that other word.....just had it......it's right there......"God".....yes, when you actually "love" the person and get married in accordance with "God" in your life it's easy.

What am I talkin about though?  "Love" and "God" LOL?  That's for weak-bodied, weak-minded sheep men in this fabulous 21st century of evolved, uber tolerant free thinkers.  

My answer to this dilemma is simple in order to break the cycle.  Someone has to step up and step out and do the following:  

first, love God and let him lead your life
second, love the one you marry
third, love the children you have together
four, love your family and teach your family to love God and each other

Engage in that behavior and success rates in marriage and family are very high.

You removed the idea of "love" out of it and then formed your straw man and made the rule that personal examples aren't allowed as evidence.  You created and forced a straw man argument and then demanded specific terms (that you change capriciously) to suit your needs.

[funk51]

  been there done that..

[Radical Plato]

you describe something very rare as only the cry in the corner types are getting married now. Normal men worth anything will not get married in these days regardless "how unique and special" he thinks the girl hes seeing is.

Only weak fools would get married, stop the excuses about wanting kids and the not being selfish BS, stay single and childless and you will be more of a help to yourself and the planet.

I'm 42, never married and childless.  Yipee, I must be one of the normal ones.  Had plenty of long term defacto relationships, last one ended a little over 12 months ago.  Kind of happy/sad about it all at the same time.  I wonder if I will ever work this shit out.  But yeah, marriage and kids always seemed like a massive trap to me, always thought it was a fool's paradise.

[Radical Plato]

My answer to this dilemma is simple in order to break the cycle.  Someone has to step up and step out and do the following:  

first, love God and let him lead your life
second, love the one you marry
third, love the children you have together
four, love your family and teach your family to love God and each other

Engage in that behavior and success rates in marriage and family are very high.

Nonsense
First - God doesn't exist
Second - Rarely do two people actually love each other equally - One always has more (love) for the other, this in itself causes lots of problems.  Not only this, what you call love appears to be nothing more than a complex web of biological process that occurs in younger people to enable procreation.  Once this has happened the chemicals causing this process begin to dissipate, hence the 'lost love' feeling many married couples experience in the middle part of their marriages.
Third - Our children may have vastly different personalities to ourselves and no matter how much we try and love them, our real feeling will always emerge from the subconscious.  It's not just a matter of saying, I love this child because it is mine.
Fourth - Once again, blindly choosing to love your family isn't necessarily wise, for they may be abusive or nonreciprocal, in which case your self esteem will be shattered after they use and abuse your unconditional loving ways.  And teaching children to love god should be considered a toxic form of child abuse and punishable by imprisonment (I am serious).  This last step alone could improve human relationships ten fold.

MOS I respect you, but you live in a fantasy world of your own making.  Put simply, you are delusional, drunk on the hope that a divinity actually exists.

[tom joad]

marriage ain't for everbody, but it's been very very good for me (after maxing out my prime single years for as long as possible.)

[Man of Steel]

Nonsense
First - God doesn't exist
Second - Rarely do two people actually love each other equally - One always has more (love) for the other, this in itself causes lots of problems.  Not only this, what you call love appears to be nothing more than a complex web of biological process that occurs in younger people to enable procreation.  Once this has happened the chemicals causing this process begin to dissipate, hence the 'lost love' feeling many married couples experience in the middle part of their marriages.
Third - Our children may have vastly different personalities to ourselves and no matter how much we try and love them, our real feeling will always emerge from the subconscious.  It's not just a matter of saying, I love this child because it is mine.
Fourth - Once again, blindly choosing to love your family isn't necessarily wise, for they may be abusive or nonreciprocal, in which case your self esteem will be shattered after they use and abuse your unconditional loving ways.  And teaching children to love god should be considered a toxic form of child abuse and punishable by imprisonment (I am serious).  This last step alone could improve human relationships ten fold.

MOS I respect you, but you live in a fantasy world of your own making.  Put simply, you are delusional, drunk on the hope that a divinity actually exists.

LOL, you're going 50 levels deep unnecessarily and further still you grasp exactly what I'm saying.....you're arguing to argue because I'm a theist.  

What I find funny is that you're actually defending against love in a healthy marriage.    

Marriages work when people love each other and promote that love in their families.  When two people love each, want to love each other and continue loving each other for the remainder of their days the marriage is solid.  Loving marriages established under God are even stronger.