Study shows muscle growth is only stimulated for 36 hours following training

[muscularny]

 

[Ropo]

Always happens. Someone will give a training protocol that they insist is "optimal" but when asked to show their results following this program they disappear.

"Full Body workouts preferred above split workouts."
"More workingsets are not essential. The number of reps is not relevant."

Since no top competitive bber follows this claim and nobody has ever won any major title using these principles I think there is probably a very good reason "forgottemuscle" is not to keen to show the results that he personal has experience using these methods.

There isn't any.
 

That is the greatest problem in this sport. Everybody knows better than the next guy, no matter what. That is why they think that muscular guys are stupid, because they are. Want me to prove it here and now? Well, if we look at the biceps of the average natural trainer at the gym, it weights like 1 - 2 kilos/ 2 - 4 lb, so it is tiny piece of meat. That doesn't matter at all, because most of the people who are training uses as much time at the biceps routines, as they use for their thighs. That is ridiculously stupid, because bicep will grow better with lesser training. There is no reason why you should do 5 - 7 - 12 sets for bicep, if 3 is enough. This is the major point of all training. Do what you need to do, no more  

[ritch]

That is the greatest problem in this sport. Everybody knows better than the next guy, no matter what. That is why they think that muscular guys are stupid, because they are. Want me to prove it here and now? Well, if we look at the biceps of the average natural trainer at the gym, it weights like 1 - 2 kilos/ 2 - 4 lb, so it is tiny piece of meat. That doesn't matter at all, because most of the people who are training uses as much time at the biceps routines, as they use for their thighs. That is ridiculously stupid, because bicep will grow better with lesser training. There is no reason why you should do 5 - 7 - 12 sets for bicep, if 3 is enough. This is the major point of all training. Do what you need to do, no more  

Don't you find you kinda contradict yourself by saying how everyone knows more than the next guy to then give training advice yourself?

[pellius]

That is the greatest problem in this sport. Everybody knows better than the next guy, no matter what. That is why they think that muscular guys are stupid, because they are. Want me to prove it here and now? Well, if we look at the biceps of the average natural trainer at the gym, it weights like 1 - 2 kilos/ 2 - 4 lb, so it is tiny piece of meat. That doesn't matter at all, because most of the people who are training uses as much time at the biceps routines, as they use for their thighs. That is ridiculously stupid, because bicep will grow better with lesser training. There is no reason why you should do 5 - 7 - 12 sets for bicep, if 3 is enough. This is the major point of all training. Do what you need to do, no more  

Ritch makes an excellent post. And you really didn't offer any proof. You say there is not reason to do 7-12 set for your biceps because 3 would suffice. But in the real world the guys with the huge arms do way more than 3 sets. What would be better proof of your argument is to show us a picture of your arms and see how it has responded to the 3 sets of training.

BTW, I don't know what makes you think that muscular guys are stupid. Since they are so successful in building muscle either they are not stupid or intelligence is not required to build muscle. And I truly doubt that a bicep weights 2-4 pounds. Next time you are at the grocery store look at how big a 4 pound steak is. 4 pounds of pure muscle added to a frame over all will make a noticeable difference. A bicep alone weighing 4 pounds will be the biggest arm that has ever existed.

You might want to be a bit more circumspect as to whom you refer to as stupid.

[Ropo]

Ritch makes an excellent post. And you really didn't offer any proof. You say there is not reason to do 7-12 set for your biceps because 3 would suffice. But in the real world the guys with the huge arms do way more than 3 sets. What would be better proof of your argument is to show us a picture of your arms and see how it has responded to the 3 sets of training.

BTW, I don't know what makes you think that muscular guys are stupid. Since they are so successful in building muscle either they are not stupid or intelligence is not required to build muscle. And I truly doubt that a bicep weights 2-4 pounds. Next time you are at the grocery store look at how big a 4 pound steak is. 4 pounds of pure muscle added to a frame over all will make a noticeable difference. A bicep alone weighing 4 pounds will be the biggest arm that has ever existed.

You might want to be a bit more circumspect as to whom you refer to as stupid.

Just let the stupidity rain over this subject, dear child. Why that nitpicking about the example of mine? Did I hurt your feelings? Let's correct the weight's to more accurate form:"it weights like 0.5 - 1 kilos/ 1 - 2 lb,". Do you feel better now?

Didn't the words "average natural trainer" mean anything to you? You see, I am real natural, never take nothing which I can't buy at the normal sport shop, so Citrulline is the most notorious chemical I use. In +25 years, training at the most significant gyms in this country, training among the best Finnish bodybuilders and learning from them, from the books and magazines, I have never seen huge arms of the natural bodybuilder. Lot of fake naturals and juiced builders with the huge biceps, but never 100% natural with anything like huge. In fact, there isn't such thing as a natural bodybuilder with the huge arms. My arms are quite big and people at the gym are speculating which kind of gear I take, and when I tell them that I don't use anything but protein, citrulline, and some multivitamins, they take me as a liar. Point? I don't care. You see, I do not lose anything if you don't believe what I say, so it doesn't make any difference if you believe me or not. What I have learn years ago is that you can lead the donkey to the water, but you can't make it drink. It is simple as that

[pellius]

Just let the stupidity rain over this subject, dear child. Why that nitpicking about the example of mine? Did I hurt your feelings? Let's correct the weight's to more accurate form:"it weights like 0.5 - 1 kilos/ 1 - 2 lb,". Do you feel better now?

Didn't the words "average natural trainer" mean anything to you? You see, I am real natural, never take nothing which I can't buy at the normal sport shop, so Citrulline is the most notorious chemical I use. In +25 years, training at the most significant gyms in this country, training among the best Finnish bodybuilders and learning from them, from the books and magazines, I have never seen huge arms of the natural bodybuilder. Lot of fake naturals and juiced builders with the huge biceps, but never 100% natural with anything like huge. In fact, there isn't such thing as a natural bodybuilder with the huge arms. My arms are quite big and people at the gym are speculating which kind of gear I take, and when I tell them that I don't use anything but protein, citrulline, and some multivitamins, they take me as a liar. Point? I don't care. You see, I do not lose anything if you don't believe what I say, so it doesn't make any difference if you believe me or not. What I have learn years ago is that you can lead the donkey to the water, but you can't make it drink. It is simple as that

Seems  to me that you are the one that is quite butt hurt.

"My arms are quite big"

Sure they are. You just won't prove it which is so easily done. We have to just take your word for it. lol.

Keep criticizing others that give advice while you do the same without offering any proof.

[Ropo]

Seems  to me that you are the one that is quite butt hurt.

"My arms are quite big"

Sure they are. You just won't prove it which is so easily done. We have to just take your word for it. lol.

Keep criticizing others that give advice while you do the same without offering any proof.

Dear moron, how do I prove it by the internet? For real, are you stupid enough to believe, that these getbiggers send you a photos about themselves, while there is hundred of millions of photos about the anonym bodybuilders to be found and make you to believe, that it is a photo of the some getbig superhero?

1. I don't have to prove anything to you guys, I do not have that kind of needs what so ever. Is this clear?
2. If I drop an opinion to you guys, it is an opinion based to the experience of +25 years of training, and that is more than most of you have been living. I do not claim that I did know everything when I born, like so many of you guys. I have learn by the years of experience, which most of you doesn't even have.  
3. What would be my motive to give you a false information? Never think about that? It make no difference to me, if you continue doing everything like you are doing, I don't lose anything by it. But in the other hand, if my advice would give you the opportunity to make muscles faster than ever, what would you lose?

I don't try to fuck your mom, I just try to make you to understand, that if you follow the brosciense instead of physical facts, you can't use the full capacity of your muscles. You see, I have been in this sport from the 80's and I have seen a lot, reading more than 90% of you guys read in his lifetime, and learning, which seem to be impossible to you guys. What I have found out is that most of the magazines and gurus around this sport are full of shit. It is a business, you are the customer they try to fool to spend your money and effort for all sort of crap. So what is the point? Use your brains. That's all I ask. If you take all out from the muscle using it's full and natural range of motion, it respond by growing. This was the base of the training from the beginning of this sport, and that's why those first generations of bodybuilders were so much more aesthetic, and this is a fact. If you skip all the bullshit and do what they did, you end up looking like they did, but as a natural, somewhat smaller. If you don't try, so what. Go to the grave as dumb as you born, and see if I care.

[pellius]

Dear moron, how do I prove it by the internet? For real, are you stupid enough to believe, that these getbiggers send you a photos about themselves, while there is hundred of millions of photos about the anonym bodybuilders to be found and make you to believe, that it is a photo of the some getbig superhero?

1. I don't have to prove anything to you guys, I do not have that kind of needs what so ever. Is this clear?
2. If I drop an opinion to you guys, it is an opinion based to the experience of +25 years of training, and that is more than most of you have been living. I do not claim that I did know everything when I born, like so many of you guys. I have learn by the years of experience, which most of you doesn't even have.  
3. What would be my motive to give you a false information? Never think about that? It make no difference to me, if you continue doing everything like you are doing, I don't lose anything by it. But in the other hand, if my advice would give you the opportunity to make muscles faster than ever, what would you lose?

I don't try to fuck your mom, I just try to make you to understand, that if you follow the brosciense instead of physical facts, you can't use the full capacity of your muscles. You see, I have been in this sport from the 80's and I have seen a lot, reading more than 90% of you guys read in his lifetime, and learning, which seem to be impossible to you guys. What I have found out is that most of the magazines and gurus around this sport are full of shit. It is a business, you are the customer they try to fool to spend your money and effort for all sort of crap. So what is the point? Use your brains. That's all I ask. If you take all out from the muscle using it's full and natural range of motion, it respond by growing. This was the base of the training from the beginning of this sport, and that's why those first generations of bodybuilders were so much more aesthetic, and this is a fact. If you skip all the bullshit and do what they did, you end up looking like they did, but as a natural, somewhat smaller. If you don't try, so what. Go to the grave as dumb as you born, and see if I care.

Quite a meltdown but I'll see if I can address your reply.

I asked you to show some proof, i.e., the results of your training protocol. It is quite simple that even a moron can understand. Just post a pic.

1. You have nothing to prove is right. You have NOTHING to present as evidence, real world evidence, that you know what you are talking about. And it doesn't matter what your "needs" are. If you make a claim it means nothing unless you can back it up. Arthur Jones always back up his claims.

2. I have over forty years of non stop consistent training. I don't consider myself an expert and still learning and don't believe that the length of time, in and of itself, automatically makes you an expert. You can give your opinion but again it means nothing unless you can back it up.

3. What is your motive? The same that you criticize others of. To seem like you know more or know something that others don't. To make yourself feel superior. And if it made no difference to you, you would have just shut up. The biggest excuse people often make is that they don't care. They care plenty. You care plenty no matter how much you deny it. You obviously took personal offense at being questioned and your emotionally based and cry baby replies to someone who challenges you is proof enough.

I don't know where the comment of having sex with my decease mom came from but it is indicative of your state of mind. Again, your claim of experience means nothing if not backed up. I got my first taste of a barbell, dumbbell and squat rack in 1972. And as far as reading, I am not to be included in your arbitrary 90%. I've read plenty.

"Training a muscle under load through a full range of motion". Wow! What a concept! All those decades of training and reading has brought you to that conclusion?

The reason you don't post a pic is that you look like shit. Chances are you are a fat old man would would be laughed off this board if you posted a pic.

Don't be so full of yourself.  

[Lustral]

dosen't talk about CNS recovery which has the final say and takes longer than that time slot before it's ready for another big session.

To those of you who do few sets and fast tempo's, sure you can go more often.

Did the study control for juice? Or individuality? I did 130 sets or so on arms last weeks, no idea what I did for back but maybe 30 sets. Thing is I am back deadlifting, so 1 set deadlift =/= 1 set rows.  I go by feel and injuries. Some nights you feel like Hercules, other nights you feel like shit. Work with it.

[Lustral]

You can manipulate this as well, which may get you past the 36 hour window cited.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Jan;89(1):161-8. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.2008.26401. Epub 2008 Dec 3.
Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.
Moore DR1, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.
OBJECTIVES:
We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.
DESIGN:
Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine.
RESULTS:
MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested.
CONCLUSIONS:
Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

The last sentence is important, too much protein, causes IRREVERSIBLE oxidation (ie tissue damage,myocytes specifically).

Like I said do any of these tests (I guess not) account for juiced trainees? I'd also assume a 6ft6 250lb bber would need more protein than a 5"8 (ie Olympia behemoth) bber - what is the g/lb (or g/kg as it should be) protein dosage?

Total bollox in isolation. I am not you, you aren't me and he isn't you.

You cannot say x works for y as a blanket statement - as if 30g protein will have my body killing me.

[Stan Diego]

I never said any such thing. Let us have a look at your huge arms. bigmc, what you?

so you are saying you didn't do a big experiment on here

where you said you could put an inch on your arms in a month just training them

In 1999 I thought I would have a go at seeing how big I could get my arms. No drugs, of course. That stopped in 1975 and only 2 Dianabol tablets were used. What I discovered was that when I did something that made my arms larger they were sore for several days. Ah, ha, I thought, what if I kept them sore?! Up until then just about everyone believed you grew after the soreness went. In other words, we were supposed to let the muscle recover then retrain them. The problem with doing that is we have to overcome the repeated bout effect and it takes much more of whatever you were doing to generate more hypertrophy. I concluded that DOMS could be used to guage when hypertrophy was occurring. If a workout didn't generate significant DOMS then I wasn't going to grow. I would stay the same which is what 90% of what bodybuilders do every time they train. Few keep growing.

For a month I kept both arms and calves sore. I was growing 1/10 inch per workout and in one month put an inch on my arms and over an inch on my calves. Unfortunately for me I got sore elbows from having my elbows on the pads. Since then I never let my elbows touch any pads. I injured my Achilles tendons from doing too many ballistic movements with 700 pounds on the calf machine. Gosh, I really got strong quickly. However, sooner or later you enter the danger zone where injuries can happen. I trained every 3rd day to give the connective tissue a chance to heal. The muscles seemed fine.

[Necrosis]

Like I said do any of these tests (I guess not) account for juiced trainees? I'd also assume a 6ft6 250lb bber would need more protein than a 5"8 (ie Olympia behemoth) bber - what is the g/lb (or g/kg as it should be) protein dosage?

Total bollox in isolation. I am not you, you aren't me and he isn't you.

You cannot say x works for y as a blanket statement - as if 30g protein will have my body killing me.

NO
You can make blanket statements if a study is properly done, that's the whole point, that's how medicine works. If what you were saying is true, that we are drastically different and idiosyncratic by our very nature, drugs wouldn't work for conditions, it would be based on the person.

Generalizability is the goal of research!

[Necrosis]

Like I said do any of these tests (I guess not) account for juiced trainees? I'd also assume a 6ft6 250lb bber would need more protein than a 5"8 (ie Olympia behemoth) bber - what is the g/lb (or g/kg as it should be) protein dosage?

Total bollox in isolation. I am not you, you aren't me and he isn't you.

You cannot say x works for y as a blanket statement - as if 30g protein will have my body killing me.

Just to clarify, there are individual responses, things can be idiopathic but humans are far more alike then different, its a misnomer to suggest otherwise. It's why a puffer works in asthma, not in melvin or ashley, but not in beth, the physiology is the same or very similar.

[pellius]

Just to clarify, there are individual responses, things can be idiopathic but humans are far more alike then different, its a misnomer to suggest otherwise. It's why a puffer works in asthma, not in melvin or ashley, but not in beth, the physiology is the same or very similar.

Great point. People often confuse or conflate the general with the specific. Of course we are all unique in out own specific way. Just the way we look is unique enough. But biologically we are identical:
Carbon base life form, heart, lungs, use oxygen, run on glucose, assimilate protein, fats, carbohydrates....

If that wasn't the case then medical science cannot exist. If one has a bacteria infection it is treated with an antibiotic but what type of antibiotic will vary. In my case, I am allergic to penicillin so I am prescribe another antibiotic, say, tetracycline, but still an antibiotic.

The general principle, antibiotic to treat bacteria infection, applies to everybody. What type, dose, duration varies as does one's response to the treatment.

Resistance training as one of the ways to stimulate strength and muscle hypertrophy applies to everybody. Frequency, duration and intensity as well as response seems to vary widely.

[Mr Anabolic]

What I propose, is training smartly. What I  do myself is quite simple routine, three days per week, starting Monday, training every other day:

1. Chest + arms  
2. Legs
3. Back and shoulders

Lot of crunches and hyperextensions, stiff legged deadlifts etc. for abs and lower back as a warm up every day.

This way I can go heavy all the time, meaning that every set is done to the failure. Basic exercises, but all the time with best possible form and range of motion. I use supersets, giant sets etc. for changing the routines, and it works quite good. What is important about this split is obvious: You doesn't stress the muscle which you have just trained at the next training session. Only legs are sore at the Friday, but that doesn't matter, they are sore till Sunday anyway. I am 56 but this way of training gives me a better growth I have when I was 30, training with the four split and not minding too much about the form and the range of motion..

As you see, there is no big secrets, just simple basics, and that is the vital point. By my experience of 25+ years, people are overcomplicating their training, while cutting down back to basics would give them better results. I see this happen all the time, natural builders try to keep up with the pace of the gear using pros, and that is utterly stupid thing to do. You get best results when you give your body some time to relax between training, time to recovery, and then you can max out in every exercise you do at the gym.  

I am 49, training 31 years.  I've also found this routine to be optimal while minimizing the stress on my joints.  After my leg workout, my legs are sore for 6-7 days afterward.  As you age training style/frequency must be adjusted.  Young trainers really cannot comprehend this until they get older.

[Rami]

2 of the best naturals, they have it figured out?