Man of Steel vs. Wiggs. Which side are you on? (God's vote included)

[Man of Steel]

The real expert of religion knows it's all bs.

Who's that expert?  Richard Dawkins?  Sam Harris?  LOL Bill Maher?  

I can't refer to Christopher Hitchens in this regard anymore because he DEFINITELY knows the truth now.

[OB1]

Who's that expert?  Richard Dawkins?  Sam Harris?  LOL Bill Maher?  

I can't refer to Christopher Hitchens in this regard anymore because he DEFINITELY knows the truth now.

I studied all major religions for years, read like 5000 books, also a lot of old rare expensive ones...
In the end I realized it is all bullshit and threw them all away in a big container.
No regrets.

So my theory is everyone studying religions seriously must inevitably come to the same conclusion.

[bigmc]

You could post scripture if you wanted. 

You remain ignorant about God because you don't study the bible, follow what ti says or desire to know God or anything about God.   That would leave you ignorant on matters of God....pretty straight forward.

Of course you disagree?

So tell me why you aren't ignorant of matters of God.  You read a parts of the bible once?  You folks took you church when you were a kid?  You've talked about God to friends in a coffee shop?

i was brought up in a very religious area

went to church all through my childhood

including sunday school where the minister would preach at us for hours

my beliefs stem from knowing a lot about the subject

i am not an expert but i am not ignorant

[Simple Simon]

Who's that expert?  Richard Dawkins?  Sam Harris?  LOL Bill Maher?  

I can't refer to Christopher Hitchens in this regard anymore because he DEFINITELY knows the truth now.

No he doesnt, its because hes dead, their is no afterlife you numbfuck, death is like before you were born, nothingness.

[Man of Steel]

I studied all major religions for years, read like 5000 books, also a lot of old rare expensive ones...
In the end I realized it is all bullshit and threw them all away in a big container.
No regrets.

So my theory is everyone studying religions seriously must inevitably come to the same conclusion.

i was brought up in a very religious area

went to church all through my childhood

including sunday school where the minister would preach at us for hours

my beliefs stem from knowing a lot about the subject

i am not an expert but i am not ignorant

Cool, tell me about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ that you proactively engaged in.

[Man of Steel]

No he doesnt, its because hes dead, their is no afterlife you numbfuck, death is like before you were born, nothingness.

You know this conclusively and objectively how?  Have any evidence germane to the topic? 

[King Shizzo]

No he doesnt, its because hes dead, their is no afterlife you numbfuck, death is like before you were born, nothingness.

But how do you explain everything else? I am not religious, and I do not believe in man-made books that claim the word of anyone.

However, you must admit that the universe is beyond human comprehension. Science is obviously a valuable tool to humanity, but it still barely scratches the surface.

An endless universe? Millions of planets? Science proves that it is mathematically impossible for earth to contain the only life. If that is the case, then scientifically, religion goes out the window, due to the existence of alien lifeforms.

Which is why I identify as agnostic. Humans weren't meant to grasp the entire meaning of life. Which includes worshipping man-made religions.

[Man of Steel]

But how do you explain everything else? I am not religious, and I do not believe in man-made books that claim the word of anyone.

However, you must admit that the universe is beyond human comprehension. Science is obviously a valuable tool to humanity, but it still barely scratches the surface.

An endless universe? Millions of planets? Science proves that it is mathematically impossible for earth to contain the only life. If that is the case, then scientifically, religion goes out the window, due to the existence of alien lifeforms.

Which is why I identify as agnostic. Humans weren't meant to grasp the entire meaning of life. Which includes worshipping man-made religions.

The assumption being that the other life in the universe is "nephesh" (Hebrew) or soulish in nature and subject God's law as it pertains to sin and accountability therein.  

Humanity is God's greatest creation...set above all others but held to a standard unlike any other.

[Simple Simon]

You know this conclusively and objectively how?  Have any evidence germane to the topic? 

the burden of proof lies with he who affirms, you want me to produce evidence of nothing?

You prove Dawkins DEFINITELY knows the truth.

Fuck me, with all thats evil in the world you talk about a God, if there is a God hes a right twat....

[cephissus]

You could post scripture if you wanted. 

You remain ignorant about God because you don't study the bible, follow what ti says or desire to know God or anything about God.   That would leave you ignorant on matters of God....pretty straight forward.

Of course you disagree?

So tell me why you aren't ignorant of matters of God.  You read a parts of the bible once?  You folks took you church when you were a kid?  You've talked about God to friends in a coffee shop?

A follower of any other religion could accuse you of the same thing: "mos hasn't studied our texts or lived by them, yet he dismisses our religion.  On what basis, then, can he justify any critique of our faith?'

What would you say to them?

[King Shizzo]

A follower of any other religion could accuse you of the same thing: "mos hasn't studied our texts or lived by them, yet he dismisses our religion.  On what basis, then, can he justify any critique of our faith?'

What would you say to them?

Agreed. The existence of multiple religions means that there is no true religion. As much as people may disagree, all wordly religions are absolutely equal in ignorance.

[Kwon]

Man of Wiggs ~ Wiggs of Steel

[Man of Steel]

the burden of proof lies with he who affirms, you want me to produce evidence of nothing?

You prove Dawkins DEFINITELY knows the truth.

Fuck me, with all thats evil in the world you talk about a God, if there is a God hes a right twat....

In basic philosophy the burden of proof is required for both positive(affirmative) and negative claims.

"[insert concept] is true." is an example of a positive(affirmative claim)

"[insert concept] is not true." is an example of a negative claim.

Both require support.  

The idea that only affirmative claims require proof is fallacious.  It's a notion that has run rampant in arguments between atheists and theists and it isn't correct.

You basically stated one positive and one negative claim:

"It is true that nothing exists before birth and after death" (positive claim because concept of "nothing" isn't necessarily automatic a negation....the concept of nothing is often treated as something)

"God is not true." (negative claim because of the inclusion of "no God")

My claims require evidence and so do yours.  I've provided evidence many times.  It's up to the objector to determine whether or not they will follow said evidence.

I fully admit this can be disputed endlessly, but I can't prevent that either.

[Man of Steel]

A follower of any other religion could accuse you of the same thing: "mos hasn't studied our texts or lived by them, yet he dismisses our religion.  On what basis, then, can he justify any critique of our faith?'

What would you say to them?

Christianity has proof of Jesus Christ life and works, his resurrection and the fulfillment of prophecy.  All other religions have nothing close to this or nothing at all.

[TuHolmes]

Christianity has proof of Jesus Christ life and works, his resurrection and the fulfillment of prophecy.  All other religions have nothing close to this or nothing at all.

What is this proof?

You mean the book?

[Man of Steel]

What is this proof?

You mean the book?

Of course "the book" is evidence.

In terms of evidence, we have historical proof of Jesus' life and ministry, archeological proof of biblical people and places, manuscript proof of biblical reliability via the field of textual criticism, multiple independent attestations that agree closely on the facts of Jesus Christ's life/death/resurrection, proof via logic (God as source of logic, TAG argument, Kalam Cosmological argument), extra-biblical accounts that validate the historicity of Jesus Christ's ministry/death/resurrection, the ministry and death of Jesus' apostles after his ascension, the fulfillment of biblical prophecy spanning hundreds of years between initial prophecy and fulfillment, the intelligent design of the universe, the utter improbability of the intricate structure of the universe without a designer and the testimonial evidence of millions and millions of Christ's followers today. This isn't an exhaustive list either.  Fact of the matter is,  you’re conversing with absolute evidence for God right now.

The problem with evidence is that our presuppositions and subjectivity often determine our judgment of evidence even prior to reviewing said evidence (that is if it's ever reviewed). Further, people that want to understand and know God have a personal desire to actively pursue God....this is key!! Atheists don't pursue God according to his terms as outlined in scripture and generally have no desire to understand and know God at all. Atheists object to God based upon a lack of scientific evidence and testing (a logical fallacy referred to as a "category mistake") or they put forth demands that certain criteria must be met within the evidence that is simply unreasonable. That or they simply reject anything and everything "of God" and refuse to explore and follow the evidence. Those that truly desire to know the reality of God pursue him on his terms and abandon their own.

[TuHolmes]

Ok.

[bigmc]

Cool, tell me about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ that you proactively engaged in.

no

[OB1]

Cool, tell me about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ that you proactively engaged in.

Why?
And
No.

[Simple Simon]

In basic philosophy the burden of proof is required for both positive(affirmative) and negative claims.

"[insert concept] is true." is an example of a positive(affirmative claim)

"[insert concept] is not true." is an example of a negative claim.

Both require support.  

The idea that only affirmative claims require proof is fallacious.  It's a notion that has run rampant in arguments between atheists and theists and it isn't correct.

You basically stated one positive and one negative claim:

"It is true that nothing exists before birth and after death" (positive claim because concept of "nothing" isn't necessarily automatic a negation....the concept of nothing is often treated as something)

"God is not true." (negative claim because of the inclusion of "no God")

My claims require evidence and so do yours.  I've provided evidence many times.  It's up to the objector to determine whether or not they will follow said evidence.

I fully admit this can be disputed endlessly, but I can't prevent that either.

lets replace God with a Unicorn
Me "Unicorns do not exist"
You "provide proof Unicorns do not exist"
Me "there is no evidence to support the existence of Unicorns"


Now,
You, "God exists"
Me, "Prove God exists"

the floor is yours my friend......

[Simple Simon]

Of course "the book" is evidence.

In terms of evidence, we have historical proof of Jesus' life and ministry, archeological proof of biblical people and places, manuscript proof of biblical reliability via the field of textual criticism, multiple independent attestations that agree closely on the facts of Jesus Christ's life/death/resurrection, proof via logic (God as source of logic, TAG argument, Kalam Cosmological argument), extra-biblical accounts that validate the historicity of Jesus Christ's ministry/death/resurrection, the ministry and death of Jesus' apostles after his ascension, the fulfillment of biblical prophecy spanning hundreds of years between initial prophecy and fulfillment, the intelligent design of the universe, the utter improbability of the intricate structure of the universe without a designer and the testimonial evidence of millions and millions of Christ's followers today. This isn't an exhaustive list either.  Fact of the matter is,  you’re conversing with absolute evidence for God right now.

The problem with evidence is that our presuppositions and subjectivity often determine our judgment of evidence even prior to reviewing said evidence (that is if it's ever reviewed). Further, people that want to understand and know God have a personal desire to actively pursue God....this is key!! Atheists don't pursue God according to his terms as outlined in scripture and generally have no desire to understand and know God at all. Atheists object to God based upon a lack of scientific evidence and testing (a logical fallacy referred to as a "category mistake") or they put forth demands that certain criteria must be met within the evidence that is simply unreasonable. That or they simply reject anything and everything "of God" and refuse to explore and follow the evidence. Those that truly desire to know the reality of God pursue him on his terms and abandon their own.

lol , just because there was a bloke named Jesus doesnt prove he cured the sick and died and rose again for our sins.


Fuck me the level of delusion is bordering on excellent trolling.

[CalvinH]

bloke named Jesus

Pretty sure no one ever called him bloke...that's only a saying you weirdo Brits use.

[mazrim]

Ok.

This is why Man of Steel is the most patient poster on here. No idea why he responds to some of you guys who clearly do not want to discuss to begin with.

[RatedXXX]

This is why Man of Steel is the most patient poster on here. No idea why he responds to some of you guys who clearly do not want to discuss to begin with.

Really? I find him to be glib, whining, and self centered. When confronted with the people brutally treated, he says he's with Christ now, and that precludes him from having to mend fences. The Gospels, however, say otherwise.

[TuHolmes]

This is why Man of Steel is the most patient poster on here. No idea why he responds to some of you guys who clearly do not want to discuss to begin with.

Not sure what patience is required when a response is a simple, "ok".