Author Topic: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?  (Read 22265 times)

pellius

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You've got nothing there, Pellius. Why not do an experiment with your body and test my theory? You might be surprised.

Really? Nothing? You think anybody believes that? I know that doesn't matter to you  because your arrogance easily accepts the notion that the entire world is simply wrong and will suffer because they are too dumb to recognize your genius.

Why don't I experiment on my body? Why should I? It's not my theory. Why don't you experiment on your body -- wait you did and failed. And if you remember I am no stranger to trying different protocols and experimenting on myself. Have you forgotten my calf experiment? Where I went from 13 inches to up to 17 inches. And that's on a muscle that few have been able to improve substantially. I don't think you, or anybody on this board, knows anyone who such dramatically improved his calves in about a year and went from looking like I had polio to being the only bodypart that people comment on how developed they are. I outlined the principles I used in minute detail on the IronAge site. A protocol that you also dismissed. Imagine that. Dismissing a protocol that actually worked dramatically on a muscle notorious to being unresponsive to training. Certainly unresponsive to the various types of training I had been doing for decades before. And I didn't use an ounce of weight or any machine. Just a dictionary, door jam and bare feet. You dismissed a successful experiment while still promoting your failed and unproven DOMS theory. What does that say about you? Who is the closed minded one?

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I can dismiss that study because it doesn't seem relevant to the population of serious bodybuilders.

Why? Why isn't it relevant? You studiously avoided that question I put to you. Bbers may look very different from the average Joe but biologically and physiologically they are not just similar but identical. Carbon based life forms that uses oxygen, processes macro/micro nutrients, have a liver and kidneys and a heart all operating in the exact same way the difference being only in degrees.
High levels of creatine kinase indicates that your muscles are in a damaged state and in this case the damage state existed while in DOMS. NO GROWTH can occur while the muscles are in a damage state meaning no growth can occur while the muscles are in DOMS. This was established by real scientist not a gym owner who won a mid level bb contest nearly fifty years ago.

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Walczak was an expert in bodybuilding hormones but wasn't a bodybuilder himself that I recall. I doubt someone who isn't a Bodybuilder would know what to do re training. Of course, he could have hung around gyms and learned that way. So let us give him the benefit of the doubt but I don't recall he had a new theory of hypertrophy.

So what? Was Arthur Jones a bodybuilder? Was Hany Rambod a bodybuilder? They all worked with and help improve the greatest bbers that ever lived. You've produce no one. Not even yourself.

Answer this one question: Since you dismiss every other authority, some of the greatest minds like Arthur Jones; and you dismiss scientific studies, tells us, give us, one reason, just one reason, why anybody should listen to you?

You tell me I have nothing. Well, what do you have?

I'll let the readers come to their own conclusions.

ratherbebig

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i would like to try out your calves routine pellius.

i got access to a seated calf machine and a calf-block at home.

Vince B

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i would like to try out your calves routine pellius.

i got access to a seated calf machine and a calf-block at home.

I don't know what Pellius is on about re myself, but Ironage was impressed with his calf routine. If a routine works then it must be doing something right.

ratherbebig

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ironage isnt around any longer is it? so i dont think i can access those old threads

Vince B

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Pellius, your argument and assumptions are mistaken. Here is what I know. My theory hasn't been refuted by you or anyone else. Therefore the cited study must be irrelevant or mistaken. I am currently setting up my personal arm gym so will be able to get some results. My 75th is in September so we will see what is possible.
I might build myself a new triceps machine.

FREAKgeek

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where's the link to your calves routine, pellius? I'll try it out

Vince B

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Really? Nothing? You think anybody believes that? I know that doesn't matter to you  because your arrogance easily accepts the notion that the entire world is simply wrong and will suffer because they are too dumb to recognize your genius.

Why don't I experiment on my body? Why should I? It's not my theory. Why don't you experiment on your body -- wait you did and failed. And if you remember I am no stranger to trying different protocols and experimenting on myself. Have you forgotten my calf experiment? Where I went from 13 inches to up to 17 inches. And that's on a muscle that few have been able to improve substantially. I don't think you, or anybody on this board, knows anyone who such dramatically improved his calves in about a year and went from looking like I had polio to being the only bodypart that people comment on how developed they are. I outlined the principles I used in minute detail on the IronAge site. A protocol that you also dismissed. Imagine that. Dismissing a protocol that actually worked dramatically on a muscle notorious to being unresponsive to training. Certainly unresponsive to the various types of training I had been doing for decades before. And I didn't use an ounce of weight or any machine. Just a dictionary, door jam and bare feet. You dismissed a successful experiment while still promoting your failed and unproven DOMS theory. What does that say about you? Who is the closed minded one?

Why? Why isn't it relevant? You studiously avoided that question I put to you. Bbers may look very different from the average Joe but biologically and physiologically they are not just similar but identical. Carbon based life forms that uses oxygen, processes macro/micro nutrients, have a liver and kidneys and a heart all operating in the exact same way the difference being only in degrees.
High levels of creatine kinase indicates that your muscles are in a damaged state and in this case the damage state existed while in DOMS. NO GROWTH can occur while the muscles are in a damage state meaning no growth can occur while the muscles are in DOMS. This was established by real scientist not a gym owner who won a mid level bb contest nearly fifty years ago.

So what? Was Arthur Jones a bodybuilder? Was Hany Rambod a bodybuilder? They all worked with and help improve the greatest bbers that ever lived. You've produce no one. Not even yourself.

Answer this one question: Since you dismiss every other authority, some of the greatest minds like Arthur Jones; and you dismiss scientific studies, tells us, give us, one reason, just one reason, why anybody should listen to you?

You tell me I have nothing. Well, what do you have?

I'll let the readers come to their own conclusions.


There is no need to descend to personal attacks when discussing a theory.

Chubby Muscle

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Hey Vince did you know that your gym is being closed down?

https://www.facebook.com/realgymau/

It's a shame it was one of the best gyms in Sydney (especially before you moved it).

Darren Avey

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Straw Man

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I didn't really say anything about training "gains" being limited to weight gain, though. Strength is important, but I don't agree that you're only in maintenance mode after year 3 or 5 or whatever.  I'm  at about year 20 in my weightlifting habit, and even without a  dramatic change in weight, my arms are much larger and more defined than they were 5 years ago. Last year I started working out legs twice a week- obsessively and consistently, whereas it used to be the workout I would skip if I just didn't have the the time or inclination- and they look much better than they ever have. My wife has a pic of us on vacation 6 years ago on her facebook page and so many people have commented on how different I look, even though I think I weighed more in that pic and was pretty muscular. My upper body taper is noticeably more dramatic and my shoulders have changed a lot. I'm not exactly Phil Heath, but they have that rounder, cannon ball look now as well as an improved upper chest and that didn't start to happen until recently. They used to look more like this:





Even without dramatic changes in weight, your body still changes.

Just curious if you had a concurrent increase in strength in the BP's that improved or do you think the improvement was due to more volume/frequency


Christian Thibaudeau wrote an article earlier this year noting how his body comp had changed over the years with various changes to his workout (and I'm sure diet) but that his bodyweight always seemed to remain about 215lbs
https://www.t-nation.com/training/genetic-limits-and-muscle-migration

Simple Simon

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Hey Vince did you know that your gym is being closed down?

https://www.facebook.com/realgymau/

It's a shame it was one of the best gyms in Sydney (especially before you moved it).

He didn't because this isn't Vince.   :D

pellius

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There is no need to descend to personal attacks when discussing a theory.

What personal attack? Or is it just a way to avoid addressing the points I made?

pellius

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Pellius, your argument and assumptions are mistaken. Here is what I know. My theory hasn't been refuted by you or anyone else. Therefore the cited study must be irrelevant or mistaken. I am currently setting up my personal arm gym so will be able to get some results. My 75th is in September so we will see what is possible.
I might build myself a new triceps machine.


You don't seem to understand basic logic and once again you have the board shaking their heads. You proposed a theory, the onus is not for us to refute it but for you to prove it. This has been pointed out to you for years but you just ignore it.

And your theory has been refuted. It has been show in a scientific study that muscle growth does not, cannot, occur while the muscle is in DOMS. But you just reject the study.

pellius

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ironage isnt around any longer is it? so i dont think i can access those old threads

Part of it is on the training board. No way at this time I can describe the protocol. It's not like I can just say 3 sets of 10 with a drop set and some forced reps here and there. There was a lot to it and something I would not be able to duplicate today.

SF1900

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Pellius, your argument and assumptions are mistaken. Here is what I know. My theory hasn't been refuted by you or anyone else. Therefore the cited study must be irrelevant or mistaken. I am currently setting up my personal arm gym so will be able to get some results. My 75th is in September so we will see what is possible.
I might build myself a new triceps machine.


You don't have a "theory." By scientific standards, you have a HYPOTHESIS.

You have to prove your hypothesis. We don't have to refute anything. And you said you have a Masters in Philosophy of Science, yet you cannot even differentiate between the terms "theory" and "hypothesis."

X

a_pupil

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what the hell is doms theory anyway? i've never seen a proper description of his training program anywhere. just long walls of text, talking about nothing.

his time would have been better spent learning how to communicate effectively and concisely instead of all those years spent on bodybuilding forums flame posting about arnold, his "training theories" and failed gym equipment inventions.

ratherbebig

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Part of it is on the training board. No way at this time I can describe the protocol. It's not like I can just say 3 sets of 10 with a drop set and some forced reps here and there. There was a lot to it and something I would not be able to duplicate today.

ok, but lets say we dont follow it to the extreme, and do not look for 4 inches growth, ill be happy with 2 inches ;)

what would the key components of the routine be like? i suspect something like one leg at a time, all the way up, all the way down, squeeze at the top? maybe a hold at a top for a no of seconds? since it didnt require gym machines i assume it was something you did every day or even several times a day?

ratherbebig

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ok i think i found part of the ironage calf post, re-posted on getbig here

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=156877.0


FREAKgeek

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ok, but lets say we dont follow it to the extreme, and do not look for 4 inches growth, ill be happy with 2 inches ;)

what would the key components of the routine be like? i suspect something like one leg at a time, all the way up, all the way down, squeeze at the top? maybe a hold at a top for a no of seconds? since it didnt require gym machines i assume it was something you did every day or even several times a day?

it involves nuclear codes

pellius

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ok i think i found part of the ironage calf post, re-posted on getbig here

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=156877.0



Yes, that's it. I use to post as Mtwain here before I got put into time out and never freed so I started this Pellius account. I also posted as Mtwain on Ironage and everything is there but lost forever. Too bad because I would not be able to duplicate the info there. Even then when I was writing it I had trouble recalling everything because I kept trying to find new, even subtle ways, to stimulate my calves. And I was referring to a time that was ten years ago from when I wrote that. And that was in 2007. Now another ten years have passed so I'll have to go back twenty years.

pellius

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ok, but lets say we dont follow it to the extreme, and do not look for 4 inches growth, ill be happy with 2 inches ;)

what would the key components of the routine be like? i suspect something like one leg at a time, all the way up, all the way down, squeeze at the top? maybe a hold at a top for a no of seconds? since it didnt require gym machines i assume it was something you did every day or even several times a day?

I don't think that is sound reasoning. That if you do something and gain 4 inches then you can do a less extreme version and get 2 inches. It doesn't work that way.

It's meaningless to talk in terms of a workout routine. Sets, reps, intensity variables. various movements.... It was following basic principles that I first learned when I was introduced to Arthur Jones by Hank Grundman (founder of the Iron Man Triathlon) who lived in the condo that I worked as a security guard when I was 18 years old. Hank Grundman opened up the first and only fully stocked commercial Nautilus Training Center. We would have long talks while he relaxed in the Jacuzzi and he offered me a huge discount to train at his gym and gave me a very plain looking paper back red book with a lady wearing a white, modest, full body leotard doing the Nautilus pullover machine saying, "If you read this you will know more about Nautilus equipment and it's training methods than most anybody."

I was mesmerized by that book. It just made so much logical sense. There were a few principles that really stuck out in my mind and really made an impression. This one basic principle stated by Arthur Jones was my guiding principle.

"Below a certain threshold of intensity exercise will do little or nothing by way of increasing muscular size, strength and functional ability."

"A long as you are working within your functional ability, doing things that are already easy, exercise will do little or nothing by way of increasing muscular size, strength and functional ability."

Now were talking late seventies early eighties when it was all about achieving a pump and 60 set squats in the mountains that Arnold claimed in his first autobiography.  So this was new stuff. And it made so much logical sense. I mean, if you could do 8 pull ups then as long as you kept doing 8, never trying for 9, 10, or 11 -- how could this possibly stimulate an adaptive response?

So that was the constant challenge. Trying to find ways to challenge the body and stimulate an adaptive response. Your body seems to adapt quite quickly to a new stress so I had to continually figure out ways to subject my calves to a new and unaccustomed stress and that's why I can't just write out a routine.

So my goal was to try and make my calves as sore as possible the next day. If I didn't experience any soreness then I considered the workout wasted effort and a needless drain on my limited recovery ability.
But unlike Basile's DOMS theory I made absolutely sure that I would not touch my calves until it was fully recover. All soreness was gone. It worked out to something like this: I found that it usually took three days for the soreness to disappear. I took that to mean that the muscle damage has been repaired. Then I would wait a couple of more days for the "adaptive response", i.e., muscle growth to occur. So I would generally train my calves every five to six days, sometimes seven or eight if the DOMS was especially severe, but never less than five.

DOMS is an indication of muscle damage. Pain serves a purpose to the human body. It is a signal that damage has occurred and the pain is the body's way of telling you to back off. Give it a rest. It made absolutely no sense at all to continual to train a damaged muscle. It's like to continue sitting out in the sun when you have a sun burn.

Now compare my reasoning to Basile's, if he has even given a coherent reason other than that absurd prehistoric hunter scenario which has already been disproven in the wild using cheetahs as an example. Every time a cheetah fails making a kill, after about the second or third attempt, it grows noticeably weaker and each subsequent failed attempt reduces it's chance of success even more as it's functional ability continues to decline and weaken.

And, of course, unlike Basile, I also did an experiment on myself and was actually successful with before and after pictures as evidence. I also put myself out there on IronAge and accepted any and all challenges to my reasoning gaining the acceptance and understanding. It was well received because logically it made sense and, more importantly, it worked.

As an aside there was zero change in diet and zero change in bodyweight during that muscle gain. But that's only because calves are a small muscle group. I can't imagine anyone could gain any appreciable amount of muscle in the legs and back without an increase in body weight.

So why didn't I try this protocol with other muscle groups? If it worked for calves, the most stubborn of all muscle groups, it should be a shoo in for arms, chest, delts....

That is another very involved long story that I am not up to telling at the moment only to say that it deals with one's mental health, what kind of person you strive to be, your priorities in life and why I believe that anyone who has achieved greatest in anything is by definition not a normal person and that also includes having a screw lost. They are mentally stable. Someone like GSP seems like a normal human being but those close to him will attest that he is a mental. Coleman with his happy go lucky southern charm -- always happy, always living the dream -- had more than a few screws loose considering what he was willing to do to himself. I mean, look at him now. Does he seem all there?

I got so obsessed with my calves that I was going crazy. And I'm not kidding. Others noticed a change in me. That I was described as getting kooky. And it's all because I was always obsessing about my calves.
Calves? A fucking muscle on the back of your shin that most people don't give a shit about. Can you begin to see why that when it was all over that I had some qualms? That a little fucking muscle group and how it looked could so dominate my life. Unless you're a pro bber and your living depends on these things what kind of moron gets so preoccupied with the look of his lower legs.

Resistance training is the best type of activity by far for one to maintain health, looks and quality of life but serious bbing really attracts some strange people and makes them even stranger.


ratherbebig

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but is DOMS the only thing that tells us to back off? a delayed reaction of sorts, whatabout the pain you went through while doing the training, isnt that too a way of the body to tell you that youre taking it too far, and with that there's risk of injury? this we're suppose to ignore and 'fight through' no matter what.

as for pullups always doing 8 and not doing 9 or 10 or 11 that doesnt make sense, UNLESS, the body grows for other reasons, maybe the accumulating effect of doing something regularly over a longer period of time, time under tension or other protocols.
very few seems to keep increasing in no of pullups or start wearing a weight belt, would it be correct to say theyre wasting their time?

Vince B

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Well Pellius, your strategy isn't much different from mine. I stated that various methods can stimulate hypertrophy and they all have the same 'symptoms' after the workout. Trainee is exhausted, muscles fully pumped and body shaking. There is no easy way.

Interesting you used DOMS to guide you re the effectiveness of your workouts. I advocate retraining after resting the muscle for two days. You rested for at least three days. The price you paid was to require a novel workout each time. I found I could avoid that except I always tried to do more reps or resistance or both.

I also made good gains in one month: 1 inch on both arms and calves.

pellius

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but is DOMS the only thing that tells us to back off? a delayed reaction of sorts, whatabout the pain you went through while doing the training, isnt that too a way of the body to tell you that youre taking it too far, and with that there's risk of injury? this we're suppose to ignore and 'fight through' no matter what.

as for pullups always doing 8 and not doing 9 or 10 or 11 that doesnt make sense, UNLESS, the body grows for other reasons, maybe the accumulating effect of doing something regularly over a longer period of time, time under tension or other protocols.
very few seems to keep increasing in no of pullups or start wearing a weight belt, would it be correct to say theyre wasting their time?


No, I don't think a trainee just "going through the motions" is wasting his time. Jones was very precise with his language. He said that always operating WITHIN your functional ability will do little or nothing by way of INCREASING muscle size, strength and functional ability.

You won't progress but certainly getting the blood flowing and muscles moving has a positive effect in regard to maintaining over all health and fitness. I mean, if people have improved and maintained their physical fitness by just walking imagine what an overall body routine would do?

And you bring up a good point about whether it is necessary to achieve DOMS, muscle damage, to progress. I don't know. What I do know is the muscles have to be subjected to a stress it is not accustom to. Maybe one rep less than what will trigger DOMS is enough. Maybe even less intensity. Mike Mentzer put it this way: he admitted that maybe it isn't necessary to produce 100% intensity of effort. Maybe all you really need was 95%, 90%, even 80% of intensity of effort to trigger an adaptive response. But how do you measure this? You can only accurately measure zero % effort and 100% effort indicated when you can't budge that bar another inch. Intensity is a necessary condition for muscle hypertrophy. 100% insures that condition.

You also being up another point that I think is almost universally misunderstood. The idea that hard training -- intensity of effort -- puts one more at risk to injury. This is simply not true and indeed it is quite the opposite. As intensity increases your risk of injury goes down. Now I am talking about injury to the muscles caused by exceeding the muscle's tensile strength and integrity. It's a different situation when you are talking about injury caused by poor form or movements requiring great skill and stabilization abilities such as squatting on a Swiss ball. Many new age exercises today are about developing a certain skill in movement than trying to develop strength under the guise that it's harder. Sure, squatting on a Swiss ball is way harder than a traditional squat. But so what? You can't possibly put the same load on the muscle doing a Swiss Ball squat than a traditional squat. It's obvious by the amount of weight you're able to use. Doing a Swiss Ball squat does help you develop the skill for squatting on a Swiss ball. Congratulations.

With the exception of doing a one rep max where you are demonstrating strength rather than developing strength it seems counter intuitive to say that, as force being generated is high, intensity is low. And as intensity increases the force generated decreases.

Let take as an example doing a set of barbell curls of 80 lbs for 8 reps failing to complete a 9th rep. When you perform the first rep your ability to generate force is high. You could easily do 90, 100, 110 lbs. So because you are still fresh and strong that first rep is easy therefore intensity is low. As you progress through the set, your strength starts to diminish as your ability to generate force goes down. And because it gets harder with each succeeding rep your intensity increases. This goes on until you no longer have the ability to generate 80lbs of force despite your best effort. Generating your highest intensity.

As your muscles get weaker with each succeeding rep it becomes more and more unlikely that you will exceed that muscles tensile strength and integrity. You are simply too weak to hurt yourself. And if you do hurt yourself it will come at the beginning on the set when you are at your strongest and you use explosive movements which greatly magnify the force generated on your muscles and joints. But HIT advocates are very adamant on performing reps in a slow and deliberate fashion emphasizing the negative portion of the movement.

So when I talk about being at the end of calf raise where I can't complete a full rep on my own and
just blasting up in real life I ain't blasting anywhere. My calf muscle is just too weak and exhausted. I am not exploding up but the actual movement is very slow and deliberate despite my best effort. Just like when you see someone trying to lock out on that final rep on bench. Despite pushing as hard as he possibly can the weight is barely moving inch by inch.  

pellius

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Well Pellius, your strategy isn't much different from mine. I stated that various methods can stimulate hypertrophy and they all have the same 'symptoms' after the workout. Trainee is exhausted, muscles fully pumped and body shaking. There is no easy way.

Interesting you used DOMS to guide you re the effectiveness of your workouts. I advocate retraining after resting the muscle for two days. You rested for at least three days. The price you paid was to require a novel workout each time. I found I could avoid that except I always tried to do more reps or resistance or both.

I also made good gains in one month: 1 inch on both arms and calves.


It is indeed quite similar. DOMS was the only way I could tell that I pushed my muscles beyond what it was used to.  But there's one glaring and exceedingly important difference. Being fully recovered
before training that muscle again is an absolute necessity. The number of days was arbitrary. What mattered was that all soreness was gone and then adding a couple of more days for compensation. I've gone as long as 8 days before training again. Also, there is a huge and exceeding important difference in frequency and duration. You've advocated training 8 hours a day if it were possible. I trained at most every five days and I only did one set. Admittedly some of those "one set" took as long as ten minutes to complete but none of this set after set, day after day.

And it is unfortunate that you are not able to prove the gains that you made. But if you did it before, and you believe age is not a hinderance to muscle hypertrophy, you should be able to do it again. This would really put the matter to rest and shut the mouths, including mine, of your detractors.