JESUS - Man or GOD ?

[canyoufeeltheforce]

I believe Jesus was a MAN and neither God / a god / the son of GOD .

Even the bible slips up now and again on the subject :


Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."

John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." 

[Johnny Apollo]

I believe Jesus was a MAN and neither God / a god / the son of GOD .

Even the bible slips up now and again on the subject :


Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."

John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." 

Right. Jesus refers to "God" in the 3rd person. Never the 1st. Jesus never proclaims he is God. Nor does he state that he should be worshiped as the God of the O.T. always did.
Jesus prayed to God and talked to him. If Jesus IS god then he's praying to and talking to himself?

[canyoufeeltheforce]

Isn't is amazing that even with all of the evidence in their own bible that many Christians still believe in the Holy Trinity ?

I guess that BLIND FAITH should be replaced with BLIND STUPIDITY.

[Lord Humungous]

Except for that part that says "he was born of the virgin Mary and became man"

[Johnny Apollo]

Except for that part that says "he was born of the virgin Mary and became man"

That didn't come from the bible, It came from the Nicene Creed. This statement was invented in 325AD at the Council of Nicaea. Nowhere is this phrase found in the Bible. The Nicene Creed is where the concept of the holy trinity was invented. A get together of church leaders who decided to make alot of bullshit up about the bible inorder to make it seem like Jesus is God but also applease the Pagans and make it seem like there are 3 Gods. There are 3 gods(paganism) but there is really just 1 God(monotheism).



Try doing your research next time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

Nicene Creed

Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.

[War-Horse]

You are correct.  There is no trinity.  This was a pagan belief started 300yrs after Jesus death.  The bible has many scriptures that state Jesus as his own being.  (pray to father) or John 14:28.
People get confused when they read John 14:9.  But it simply means that the Son Jesus Was in union with his Father in the Pursuit of these steps to be accomplished.   Isaiah had stated the Son would come and the detail was accomplished.

The only way the Father and Son are one is.....like if you and I were on the same football team we would be in union to win and would work together....but were seperate people for sure.

See its very simple, but the pagan churches have polluted it with hard details.

[w8tlftr]

I thought the holy trinity was Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman.

Ahhh man! 

[War-Horse]

you're right that trinity is not biblical. but it's not a bible slip-up. Jesus just wasn't God.

You are correct gibber.    Jesus was the Son of GOD.  Scriptures with a capital "G" refer to YAHWEH or Jehovah or Elohim.   That is GOD.   Jesus was a god as his son...lower case "g".
Very simple freinds.   There is a son and a father, that answers all in the scriptures.

[War-Horse]

Im impressed G    Yes the early texts indicate the use of the name of Jehovah 6,800 times.  So who took it out??    Well if you liked your name and wanted it to be known, but i was your enemy and could figure a way to take that away from you.......get the point?   Satan is jealous of GOD and will do anything great or small to take his glory.
Satan did this by convincing clerics in the 2nd century that GODS name was too great for common people to pronouce.  See then only the church would have the name.   Next was to burn bibles and such.  So the catholic church eliminated it and brought in HUGE pagan beliefs to the people.
God Jehovah will take care of this soon.

[Johnny Apollo]

LORD and GOD are actually Jehovah or another variation of the name. in the greek scriptures it is interesting that though the devine name is missing the word hallelujah apears which literally means praise "Jah" (the short version of Jehovah used in psalms and Isaiah once in a while). And when the old testament is quoted in the new many of these passages quoted are ones that contain the devine name. why would Jesus or anyone change it? It is very easy to tell when the Lord and God in the new testament reffer to Jehovah or Yaweh or Yehawah. The reason for the name missing is the appostasy slowly introduced into christianity which both Jesus and the apostles warned about.

In the english translations "Lord" and "God" are interchangable but in reality in the new testament whenever jesus is refered to as "Lord" it literally means "master". In greek the word for God is "Theos" which jesus never refers to himself as.

[Johnny Apollo]

Im impressed G    Yes the early texts indicate the use of the name of Jehovah 6,800 times.  So who took it out??    Well if you liked your name and wanted it to be known, but i was your enemy and could figure a way to take that away from you.......get the point?   Satan is jealous of GOD and will do anything great or small to take his glory.
Satan did this by convincing clerics in the 2nd century that GODS name was too great for common people to pronouce.  See then only the church would have the name.   Next was to burn bibles and such.  So the catholic church eliminated it and brought in HUGE pagan beliefs to the people.
God Jehovah will take care of this soon.

In english translations(KJV) translated "Jehovah" into "God". Jehovah doesn't occur 6,800 times but 6,518 times in the Masoretic texts. The word "Jehovah" isn't even what the hebrew word is. Most scholars believe that "Jehovah" is incorrect transcription of vowel points from the hebrew phrasing.

Nothing to do with satan tricking people...

[War-Horse]

In english translations(KJV) translated "Jehovah" into "God". Jehovah doesn't occur 6,800 times but 6,518 times in the Masoretic texts. The word "Jehovah" isn't even what the hebrew word is. Most scholars believe that "Jehovah" is incorrect transcription of vowel points from the hebrew phrasing.

Nothing to do with satan tricking people...

YHWH is hebrew.  Since it is ancient hebrew no one knows for sure.  Satan has tricked you Johnny.

[Oldschool Flip]

Too bad SAM KINISON isn't still alive to join this debate! He would have been funny!

[Johnny Apollo]

YHWH is hebrew.  Since it is ancient hebrew no one knows for sure.  Satan has tricked you Johnny.

I actually speak hebrew...

[Butterbean]

The trinity is a difficult concept.

But if Jesus wasn't God, how did He live a completely sinless life?

I believe he was God incarnate, thus man AND God.



God through His Holy Spirit allowed Mary (a human) to give birth to Jesus. 

So Jesus was both God and human.

It's like 2 human parents create (and one give) birth to human children.  2 dog "parents" create a dog.  A lion and a tiger create a liger....

Jesus' father was God and His mother was mary, thus He was both God and human.


That's the way I see it anyway

[Johnny Apollo]

The trinity is a difficult concept.

But if Jesus wasn't God, how did He live a completely sinless life?

I believe he was God incarnate, thus man AND God.

God through His Holy Spirit allowed Mary (a human) to give birth to Jesus. 

So Jesus was both God and human.

It's like 2 human parents create (and one give) birth to human children.  2 dog "parents" create a dog.  A lion and a tiger create a liger....

Jesus' father was God and His mother was mary, thus He was both God and human.


That's the way I see it anyway

1.Where does it say only "God" can be sinless in the jewish bible?

2.When did Jesus claim he was sinless?

3.How is jesus being sinless(assuming he even said he was) imply he is God?

[Colossus_500]

1.Where does it say only "God" can be sinless in the jewish bible?

2.When did Jesus claim he was sinless?

3.How is jesus being sinless(assuming he even said he was) imply he is God?

1. Does the Jewish bible claim that God committed sins?

2. When does Jesus ever claim he sinned?

3. we've already been over this debate about Jesus and the Father being one (actually part of the Trinity - God, Son, Holy Spirit), but you say it's not true.  so what's the point of waisting time typing?   

[Johnny Apollo]

1. Does the Jewish bible claim that God committed sins?

2. When does Jesus ever claim he sinned?

3. we've already been over this debate about Jesus and the Father being one (actually part of the Trinity - God, Son, Holy Spirit), but you say it's not true.  so what's the point of waisting time typing?   

1.Nowhere.

2.Don't think he did. I never claimed I sinned. I must be God too!

3.We've been over it and you've failed to give any evidence of your claims.

[Colossus_500]

1.Nowhere.

2.Don't think he did. I never claimed I sinned. I must be God too!

3.We've been over it and you've failed to give any evidence of your claims.

so you've never missed the mark so to speak?

wrong again.  we've been over it, you've just chosen not to concede when you KNOW you're wrong.

[canyoufeeltheforce]

1. Does the Jewish bible claim that God committed sins?

2. When does Jesus ever claim he sinned?

3. we've already been over this debate about Jesus and the Father being one (actually part of the Trinity - God, Son, Holy Spirit), but you say it's not true.  so what's the point of waisting time typing?  

1.Nowhere.

2.Don't think he did. I never claimed I sinned. I must be God too!

3.We've been over it and you've failed to give any evidence of your claims.

It seems I missed the original discusion but I suppose that is the nature of forums .

Regarding the debate on Holy Trinity I think that there is strong argument that Jesus and God are separate entities . For example in Mathew 4:1-2 "Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.  After he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he felt hungry." Surely you can not argue that Satan would tempt his creator ( Jehovah ) .

And then in Mathew 4:8-10 "Again the devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him:  All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.  Then Jesus said to him:  God away Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone, you must render sacred service." If Jesus was GOD (Jehovah ) then why did he not say to Satan "It is me whom you must worship" ?

There are many more examples if you look .

[Johnny Apollo]

so you've never missed the mark so to speak?

wrong again.  we've been over it, you've just chosen not to concede when you KNOW you're wrong.

Stop saying I "Know" i'm wrong..PROVE me wrong.



..Oh wait,You can't!

[Butterbean]

1.Where does it say only "God" can be sinless in the jewish bible?

2.When did Jesus claim he was sinless?

3.How is jesus being sinless(assuming he even said he was) imply he is God?

Why do you want to use the bible as a reference when you think it's hogwash?

John 8:46-47 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?"

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

[manni]

Jesus is 100% man, 100% God - some would say

[gibberj2]

You don't have to be God Almighty to be sinless. All the Angels that serve the Almighty are sinless and Adam could have been sinless too. Jesus was the second Adam. The difference between him and regular men is that he was born without original sin and was there for a "flawless human" who had the ability to remain spotless. This was a devastating blow to Satan who from the beginning intended to show that man would not remain faithfull to God.

[Johnny Apollo]

Why do you want to use the bible as a reference when you think it's hogwash?

John 8:46-47 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?"

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

When you're discussing specifics in the bible you must use it as a reference as if you were discussing specifics in the illiad you'd use IT as a reference even though it's fiction like the bible is.

Jhn 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 

Jesus isn't saying he's "Sinless" he's simply asking who is convicting him of sin.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 

Jesus isn't saying he's sinless here either he's simply asking (GOD) to glorify him.

This is more proof Jesus did not claim to be God because he's literally speaking to God in the 3rd  person. God is someone else he is addressing. He isn't God himself.

If I thought myself to be Johnny would I really say..

"Oh Johnny, Glorify me with yourself in the glory which I had before!"

That would make absolutely no sense. Only a crazy man would speak like that!