DC Logg: Doggcrapp Training - is it all that it's cracked up to be?

[egoatdoor]

So, has anyone seen any incredible gains through this method?



If so, do you use AAS or not?



Updates anyone?



Show me some numbers!

I am in the middle of my second DC cycle. In the first cycle in August, I gained 5 pounds in lean muscle in 4 weeks after being "stuck" for several months before that. So far in cycle 2, I am up 2 pounds in 15 days. In DC, it not only the training that is important, but it is the NUTRITION, REST and even CARDIO. I am doing cardio 3 times a week instead of 1 or 2 and it is really jacking up my appetite and metabolism. My protein intake is 1.5 grams per pound ( 300 grams a day) versus 1.25 before and even that little bit has made a difference.

No, I do not use AAS. I am 47 years old, so taken in that context, these type of gains for an experienced(not newbie), natural lifter are extraordinary in my mind.

Poundages ( since 8/7):  Barbell Curls up 10, Squats up 30, Leg Press up 70, Deadlifts up 20, Rack Deadlifts up 50.

[egoatdoor]

  With DC you're constantly trying to beat your best lifts either by weight or by reps, you might only lift 2.5lbs more on a movement everytime or everyother time but it adds up and you can work up to some pretty respectable poundages. 

Very true. I work up in small increments at a time.

[Stubborn]

So its doing someone some good. Glad to hear it. I am more about the strength nowadays so thats what Im looking at. I am mostly interested because I want something to switch to if I get bored with my current program.

Thanks for the feedback!

[natural al]

So its doing someone some good. Glad to hear it. I am more about the strength nowadays so thats what Im looking at. I am mostly interested because I want something to switch to if I get bored with my current program.

Thanks for the feedback!

I know Dante is working with some powerlifters, what he has them doing specifically I don't know.  If you go to intense muscle and check out the dog pound there is a couple of threads on there about it.  I would think it would be along the same lines as what he has his BBers doing but he has so many little tricks up his sleeve I wouldn't doubt it if it was totally different. 

[natural al]

So its doing someone some good. Glad to hear it. I am more about the strength nowadays so thats what Im looking at. I am mostly interested because I want something to switch to if I get bored with my current program.

Thanks for the feedback!

here's a thread about the powerlifting stuff, I don't know how much info is revealed cause i didn't read it all yet but it might help...

http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=17649

[DK II]

Any updates on DC?

I'll try it from december.

[natural al]

Any updates on DC?

I'll try it from december.

what kinda updates are ya looking for?

[DK II]

what kinda updates are ya looking for?

i thought about training progress or something like that.

I heard DC was 'doggcrapp'  from a lot of people, and others say it's great.

I thought i try it, but wanted some more opinions from people here too. 

[natural al]

i thought about training progress or something like that.

I heard DC was 'doggcrapp'  from a lot of people, and others say it's great.

I thought i try it, but wanted some more opinions from people here too. 

it's a whole different way to look at training.  I think it's great other guys hate it.  I'll pm you a great link to check out in the next day or so.

[Devon97]

DC training is a gimmick and fad.

No highly respected trainer or strength coach will ever Approve of DC training.

DC foscuses on Hammer strength, Machines and Smith Machines. All of which are vastly inferior to free wts.

DC rep range brackets are almost always the same. Very little variety

The " every set to failure" mentality is a recipie for disaster for the Natural trainee.

A totally juiced lifter can make quality gains in SPITE of DC Training methods.

[alexxx]

DC training is a gimmick and fad.

No highly respected trainer or strength coach will ever Approve of DC training.

DC foscuses on Hammer strength, Machines and Smith Machines. All of which are vastly inferior to free wts.

DC rep range brackets are almost always the same. Very little variety

The " every set to failure" mentality is a recipie for disaster for the Natural trainee.

A totally juiced lifter can make quality gains in SPITE of DC Training methods.

You are a naive child.

[natural al]

DC training is a gimmick and fad.

No highly respected trainer or strength coach will ever Approve of DC training.

DC foscuses on Hammer strength, Machines and Smith Machines. All of which are vastly inferior to free wts.

DC rep range brackets are almost always the same. Very little variety

The " every set to failure" mentality is a recipie for disaster for the Natural trainee.

A totally juiced lifter can make quality gains in SPITE of DC Training methods.

next time come back with more "blanket" statements, you're post is not even close to being well thought out or looked into.  Russian and Bulgarian olympic lifters used the "rest-pause" theory to great success back n the 80's...I think those coaches were kinda well respected.

why are hammer and smith machines inferior?  Cause they don't build the stabalizer muscles?  Big fucking deal.  Nobody eveer lost a bodybuilding contest cause they didn't have big stabalizer muscles, it's a safety thing especially if you train alone, think about it.

rep ranges are always the same?  Again with the blanket statement.  there are suggested rep ranges but no one ever said you had to stick to them.  If you try doing a movement and get better results using a rep range of 30-like most guys do with forearms-then you run with it.  As long as you are progressing who gives a fuck if you do 10 reps or 20?  Again, you really don't know what you're talking about in any training fasion let alone DC.

so taking everything to failure is a recipe for disaster.  Explain yourself, I'd love to hear it.  You're basically going to failure once or twice a week on one movement and then recovering for the rest of the week.  how is that gonna lead to failure? 

bottom line you didn't read anything about hte program, you don't know jack shit and you probably don't even really work out let alone work out hard. 

You're post is a total fucking joke, go do some reading and come back and speak with some common sense and maybe we can have an intellegent conversation about the subject until then STFU.

You are a naive child.

very well put alexxxx.

[Devon97]

next time come back with more "blanket" statements, you're post is not even close to being well thought out or looked into.  Russian and Bulgarian olympic lifters used the "rest-pause" theory to great success back n the 80's...I think those coaches were kinda well respected.

why are hammer and smith machines inferior?  Cause they don't build the stabalizer muscles?  Big fucking deal.  Nobody eveer lost a bodybuilding contest cause they didn't have big stabalizer muscles, it's a safety thing especially if you train alone, think about it.

rep ranges are always the same?  Again with the blanket statement.  there are suggested rep ranges but no one ever said you had to stick to them.  If you try doing a movement and get better results using a rep range of 30-like most guys do with forearms-then you run with it.  As long as you are progressing who gives a f**k if you do 10 reps or 20?  Again, you really don't know what you're talking about in any training fasion let alone DC.

so taking everything to failure is a recipe for disaster.  Explain yourself, I'd love to hear it.  You're basically going to failure once or twice a week on one movement and then recovering for the rest of the week.  how is that gonna lead to failure? 

bottom line you didn't read anything about hte program, you don't know jack shit and you probably don't even really work out let alone work out hard. 

You're post is a total fucking joke, go do some reading and come back and speak with some common sense and maybe we can have an intellegent conversation about the subject until then STFU.

Whats wrong with Hammer strength?
For 1 the leverage is too good. Thats why you always see high school kids can do 5 plates per side but when they move to barbell work they can only do a fraction of that.
Smith Machines cause shoulder impingement and awfull sheering in the knee when squats are performed. This is why you will never see one in a elite level training facility.
Im not going to break down every other arguement you put out .... Instead I will allow you time to reflect upon what I just wrote.

[DK II]

Whats wrong with Hammer strength?
For 1 the leverage is too good. Thats why you always see high school kids can do 5 plates per side but when they move to barbell work they can only do a fraction of that.
Smith Machines cause shoulder impingement and awfull sheering in the knee when squats are performed. This is why you will never see one in a elite level training facility.
Im not going to break down every other arguement you put out .... Instead I will allow you time to reflect upon what I just wrote.

haha, this is ridiculous!!

...you always see high school kids can do 5 plates per side but when they move to barbell...

Stop whining because other people have more plates than you. Who the hell cares about the plates?
hahaha, this is great.

monster insecurity issues.

[natural al]

Whats wrong with Hammer strength?
For 1 the leverage is too good. Thats why you always see high school kids can do 5 plates per side but when they move to barbell work they can only do a fraction of that.
Smith Machines cause shoulder impingement and awfull sheering in the knee when squats are performed. This is why you will never see one in a elite level training facility.
Im not going to break down every other arguement you put out .... Instead I will allow you time to reflect upon what I just wrote.

you're arguement for hammer strength is worthless.  We're not talking about highschool kids.  The only people who should be doing DC training are experienced lifters.  Now if I take my shirt off and go out on a beach and look like a monster do you think it matters if I work out on a smith machine a hammer stength machine or use free weights?  All that matters is what makes you big...this is not powerlifting and I'm a "bodybuilder" I'm never gonna be stopped anywhere and be challanged to bench press 320lbs just to prove that it's heavier than hammer strength.

I've never seen a powerhouse or a worlds or a golds that didn't have smith machines.  Many pro's use them for squating.

You don't know a thing about DC training or you wouldn't even be wasting my time with these kind of statements.

Nobody says you have to use any machine, they are offered as an alternative.  Do some research about the techniques then come back and talk to me, otherwise just stick to you're "elite" training facility. 

[Devon97]

THis is a Quote by Charles Poliquin.

"The problem with plate-loaded machines is that the leverage is often too good. Every kid in high school can do five plates a side, but they can't do five plates a side with any barbell exercise. The only time they do five plates is when they go to IHOP. And when in real life would you have to overcome resistance in a seated position? Never.

Another problem with machines is the fixed pattern of movement."

Here is the entire article. It would serve you guys well to read this.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-173-training

[DK II]

THis is a Quote by Charles Poliquin.

"The problem with plate-loaded machines is that the leverage is often too good. Every kid in high school can do five plates a side, but they can't do five plates a side with any barbell exercise. The only time they do five plates is when they go to IHOP. And when in real life would you have to overcome resistance in a seated position? Never.

Another problem with machines is the fixed pattern of movement."

Here is the entire article. It would serve you guys well to read this.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-173-training

What the hell does this have to do with DC training?

Please read al's post again, he has already answered your claims.

[Jeff Miller]

OK, here's my two cents.

I am not knowledgeable enough to say that DC does or doesn't work.  I have never seen pics of folks that have used DC (except for Dave Henry, and he ain't natural), so I have nothing to base results on except for testimony.  I recently came back off of a lower back strain, and decided to give DC a go.  I just did it for 2 weeks, 6 workouts total.  I am going back to more volume and splitting out my bodyparts over 3 days (except for abs and calves, trained 3 days a week with cardio), largely because I feel that I am neglecting some bodyparts by only doing one exercise for an entire muscle region.  HOWEVER, I think there is value in the rest/pause on the first heavy compound exercise and in the extreme stretching.  The stretching seems to be adding some detail (especially quads), and I notice I am a bit more flexible.  I think that the calves training technique also has merit.

But I sill not be so naive as to say that this program does not work. 

[natural al]

THis is a Quote by Charles Poliquin.

"The problem with plate-loaded machines is that the leverage is often too good. Every kid in high school can do five plates a side, but they can't do five plates a side with any barbell exercise. The only time they do five plates is when they go to IHOP. And when in real life would you have to overcome resistance in a seated position? Never.

Another problem with machines is the fixed pattern of movement."

Here is the entire article. It would serve you guys well to read this.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-173-training

I'm well aware of all the "pitfalls" of plate loaded machines, I've said it before and I'll say it again...I could care less about how much I bench vs. how much I use on a hammer flat machine.  I could care less how much I bench at this point.  The only thing I care about when I walk into the gym is am I moving more weight using good form than I did the last time?  Am I doing movements that will allow me to continually grogress and once that progress eventually stops can I rotate in another movement that I can get brutally strong with?  If I can go from using 225 for 13 reps rest paused to 315lbs for 12 reps rest paused over a period of time using a smith machine what's not to like?

machines in general are not the give all end all of DC they are presented as an option and for some people who train alone don't you think it's better to be safe than to walk around like a dogmatic caveman saying "I only use free weights".  It's just like all these idiots who say you have to do rack chins when you do dc...no.  It's presented as an option.  Same with every other aspect of the program, it never says anywhere you HAVE to do certain movements, you tailor the routine to fit the movements you think will give YOU the best results.  The only movements that are advised againts are flat bench presses cause people feel it places too much stress on the pec/delt area and a tear may be possible.

you're just not informed, you have every right to your opinion but honestly you don't know what you're talking about and it was proven in your above post about no elite gym having a smith machine.  Show me a powerhouse, worlds, golds or really any other major facility that does not have a smith.  Dorian used one.  Shawn Ray used one for squats.....you either don't know how to use this particular piece of equipment or someone is giving you faulty information.  I've got major league lower back issues-from a job I used to have not from working out-and I squatted using a smith for a long time, it allowed me to keep my back in a position that was pain free, I never suffered any knee problems.

oh, well, whatever.  You just go ahead and do what you're doing.  Meanwhile with one really good blast this last year I'm up from 194lbs to 210lbs and my waist is the same size...not bad considering I was in the hospital for 3 days in august for diverticulitus, my dad had a major stroke, I had pnuemonia last winter and all the issues with my son.  Now all I gotta  do is rip up and I should be able to cruise into a natural show at the end of the year...oppppss..I hope they don't mark me down cause I use a smith machine for some movements

[natural al]

OK, here's my two cents.

I am not knowledgeable enough to say that DC does or doesn't work.  I have never seen pics of folks that have used DC (except for Dave Henry, and he ain't natural), so I have nothing to base results on except for testimony.  I recently came back off of a lower back strain, and decided to give DC a go.  I just did it for 2 weeks, 6 workouts total.  I am going back to more volume and splitting out my bodyparts over 3 days (except for abs and calves, trained 3 days a week with cardio), largely because I feel that I am neglecting some bodyparts by only doing one exercise for an entire muscle region.  HOWEVER, I think there is value in the rest/pause on the first heavy compound exercise and in the extreme stretching.  The stretching seems to be adding some detail (especially quads), and I notice I am a bit more flexible.  I think that the calves training technique also has merit.

But I sill not be so naive as to say that this program does not work. 

well, if you gave it an honest try then I can't fault you for it.  I'd like to know what kind of training you did prior to starting DC and what you're program looked like while you were doing it before you stopped.  DC is really a totally different mindset and it takes alot of getting used to.  IF you ever want to readdress it in the future post your routine and we can take a look at it....who knows maybe we can do a few little tweaks and you'll feel better about it.

[DK II]

I'm now only three weeks into my DC experience and i must say i love it.

I have done HST and HIT before, but DC takes training to another world. It freaks me every time how after a workout i'm completly exausted and never think i could go any harder on these exercises, yet when you come back to the gym the next time, you can go harder.

It's mentally extremely difficult to push oneself to the limit in EVERY workout, 3 times a week, but it seems to fit me. I like to fight myself. 

The last 20 reps set on quads is the absolute best i have done for legs in my life. 
I was always afraid to do back and chest in one workout but it works very well and i feel good all the time.

I can eat a lot more than before, my body seems to cry out for protein, it's almost like you can feel the energy it needs now. absolutely amazing feeling.

[Devon97]

I'm well aware of all the "pitfalls" of plate loaded machines, I've said it before and I'll say it again...I could care less about how much I bench vs. how much I use on a hammer flat machine.  I could care less how much I bench at this point.  The only thing I care about when I walk into the gym is am I moving more weight using good form than I did the last time?  Am I doing movements that will allow me to continually grogress and once that progress eventually stops can I rotate in another movement that I can get brutally strong with?  If I can go from using 225 for 13 reps rest paused to 315lbs for 12 reps rest paused over a period of time using a smith machine what's not to like?

machines in general are not the give all end all of DC they are presented as an option and for some people who train alone don't you think it's better to be safe than to walk around like a dogmatic caveman saying "I only use free weights".  It's just like all these idiots who say you have to do rack chins when you do dc...no.  It's presented as an option.  Same with every other aspect of the program, it never says anywhere you HAVE to do certain movements, you tailor the routine to fit the movements you think will give YOU the best results.  The only movements that are advised againts are flat bench presses cause people feel it places too much stress on the pec/delt area and a tear may be possible.

you're just not informed, you have every right to your opinion but honestly you don't know what you're talking about and it was proven in your above post about no elite gym having a smith machine.  Show me a powerhouse, worlds, golds or really any other major facility that does not have a smith.  Dorian used one.  Shawn Ray used one for squats.....you either don't know how to use this particular piece of equipment or someone is giving you faulty information.  I've got major league lower back issues-from a job I used to have not from working out-and I squatted using a smith for a long time, it allowed me to keep my back in a position that was pain free, I never suffered any knee problems.

oh, well, whatever.  You just go ahead and do what you're doing.  Meanwhile with one really good blast this last year I'm up from 194lbs to 210lbs and my waist is the same size...not bad considering I was in the hospital for 3 days in august for diverticulitus, my dad had a major stroke, I had pnuemonia last winter and all the issues with my son.  Now all I gotta  do is rip up and I should be able to cruise into a natural show at the end of the year...oppppss..I hope they don't mark me down cause I use a smith machine for some movements

Let me say that I am sorry to hear about the health issues of your dad and son as well as yourself. I hope all of you guys are doing much better now.

I am still confused though, mentioned a few posts up about wanting to look big at the beach and in the above post competing at a heavier weight.... then earlier in the post you mentioned that you wanted to increase a chosen lift from 225 x 12 to 315 x 12...... which leads me to ask....
Are you training for strength or training to get bigger?

I think you give such a passionate response because mainstream bodybuilding has defined who you are as a person.
DO You truely believe that Golds gym or Worlds gym is an Elite level training center?? They are recreational gyms for the everyday gym-goer, the regular lay-person.
Here are a few Elite level training centers:
http://www.ppcchicago.com/index2.php
http://www.ihpfit.com/

These are serious Elite level performance training centers which caters to Olympic level athletes and highly paid professional athletes and the lay-person who wants optimal training.
If DC is so optimal at building strength and muscle why dont Elite level trainig centers like these use it? WHy dont professional strength/performance coaches use it to build strength?
Why dont Dave Tate or Elitefts.com and Luoie Simmons of Westside use DC instead of their own meathods to build strength>??
Pleas ehelp me to understand this because I am confused.

[DK II]

Are you seriously this dumb?

What you are saying is that DC is shit because your so called elite fitness gyms haven't got any smith machines?

 

[natural al]

Let me say that I am sorry to hear about the health issues of your dad and son as well as yourself. I hope all of you guys are doing much better now.

I am still confused though, mentioned a few posts up about wanting to look big at the beach and in the above post competing at a heavier weight.... then earlier in the post you mentioned that you wanted to increase a chosen lift from 225 x 12 to 315 x 12...... which leads me to ask....
Are you training for strength or training to get bigger?

I think you give such a passionate response because mainstream bodybuilding has defined who you are as a person.
DO You truely believe that Golds gym or Worlds gym is an Elite level training center?? They are recreational gyms for the everyday gym-goer, the regular lay-person.
Here are a few Elite level training centers:
http://www.ppcchicago.com/index2.php
http://www.ihpfit.com/

These are serious Elite level performance training centers which caters to Olympic level athletes and highly paid professional athletes and the lay-person who wants optimal training.
If DC is so optimal at building strength and muscle why dont Elite level trainig centers like these use it? WHy dont professional strength/performance coaches use it to build strength?
Why dont Dave Tate or Elitefts.com and Luoie Simmons of Westside use DC instead of their own meathods to build strength>??
Pleas ehelp me to understand this because I am confused.

mostly the examples I gave were to illustrate certain points.  The bottom line and the overall theory behind dogcrapp-as I understand it-is if you get stronger, for reps not for singles you're going to grow.  DC talks about the guy we all know who can put up 405 for a rep but doesn't have a chest but how many guys do you know who can put up 345 for 12-15 reps in rest paused fashion that show no develpement?  Over all if I go from 225*12 to 315*15 over 6 months on the close grip bench press my tri's are gonna grow, so you are training for strength but you're doing it in a way that also promotes musclular growth.  Lets put it this way, what do you think is gonna give you better results doing close grips with 225 for 2 sets of 10 in january and then doing the same movement in july using 235lbs or busting your ass and making yourself strong as an ox while focusing on recovery?  

I talked about the beach just to say if you look big and you're getting the results you want it doesn't matter if you use a smith or free wieghts or machines....as long as it works you use it.

as far as the elite fitness facilties...how many people on this board are gonna train at the facilities you mentioned?  Most guys here train at a golds or a powerhouse...hell, I've never been in those places.  I think once you subscribe to the dogma of "I've got to use freewieghts" you limit your options too much.  There are good things about alot of machines, now I wouldn't tell a guy to train on a hammer strength machine for 6 months then go enter a powerlifting meet, that would be stupid but if that guy trained on a hammer strenght machine and was improving the bodypart he was training why tell him to stop?  Again it's bodybuilding not powerlifting.  There's a guy on the G&O boards named daddywaddy who claims to just do bodyweight pushups for hours at a time and he's gotten good results, I'm not gonna tell him to stop, is it what I "think" he should be doing?  No but it's working for him.

as far as the strength training aspect of it goes, to be perfectly honest I don't know enough about it to debate it.  I know I've gotten very, very strong on certain movements using this type of training.  I know DC is working with powelifters but I dont' know what he has them doing.  The main aspect of this type of training is that you're always lifting more weight or you loose that movement from your rotation, I got brutally strong on some things so I dont' see why it wouldn't translate.  Go on youtube and look for vids of Justin harris or Steve Kulco, both train with DC and both are as strong as mules.  I know rest pause techniques have been used in the past by some olympic trainers but that's all I know.


I hope i addressed everything, I've got a ton going on, maybe to make it easier if we want to continue this we can cut down on the length of the posts so I can get the answers out a little quicker otherwise I have to do it during my spare time and that rushes things, I'm on the road right now so it's a little rough to put all my thoughts down.

[natural al]

Are you seriously this dumb?

What you are saying is that DC is shit because your so called elite fitness gyms haven't got any smith machines?

 

smith machines are a tool.  I maxed out on the incline on the smith at 305 for 12 reps at about 195lbs, the reps were rest paused but that's where I ended up.  Now I'm usign a precor machine in my rotationa nd I've almost got it maxed out so I've got to find another alternative.

There's this whole dogma of "machines suck" and it's just not true, machines dont' suck...they're just another avenue to take, another option and if you are close minded you're limiting yourself.  I'd love to train on the old 70's natulus machines just because I've never used them but I'd love to seee the results.