Author Topic: 3 worst Presidents in History...  (Read 19775 times)

spotter

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2008, 06:15:28 PM »
Dispite Nixon being a crook, he did quite well with his bringing China and the U.S. closer.  This is why he wasn't on my list.



I agree Nixon did work closely with China & Russia.  He was a bit paranoid, but he was an effective statesman.... :-X

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2008, 07:00:38 AM »
lol  Riiiiiiiiight! 

Govt is the solution.  Do you know what cause the depression or what it was?  Wall street collapsing was not it.  It played a role, but only happened because all loans were called in after the currency in circulation had been reduced over and over and over again.  The fed caused it.  Less than ten years after it was set up to protect the economy, it creates the depression.  Having enough currency in circulation to match the debt could have ended it right away.  That is why Burnanke is pumping tons of cash into the economy.  He spent his life studying the depression and its cause.

FDR had peoples gold confiscated, but that wasn't in your middle school book was it?  That gold moved to Ft. Knox has never been inventoried.
The reasons for the Depression are many.  It was in the making for a decade before the market crash.  The supply side of the economy's equations was glutted.  Unregulated laissez faire capitalism was a major culprit.  The republican recipe of low taxes, little or no regulation and unenforced anti-trust laws ruled the day.  The FEd did sit on its hands preferring to let the market work out the problem itself and that failed (there were a few interest rate cuts).  Hoover did most of his gov intervention into the problem in his last year long after the problem became a cancer.  The Depression did not start receding until FDR adopted more fully, governmental spending, regulation and intervention into the free market.

The gold standard was restricting the government's ability to affect the money supply.  It had to go.

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2008, 07:05:24 AM »

Typical lib, decker.  Have you even once deviated from the socialist big gov't mindset?

I'm a socialist armed with the facts.  Reagan's Coolidge/Hoover approach to government set the stage for the worst president in history: W.  The same failed policies of little regulation, no oversight and fiscal mismanagement (borrow and spend) set the economic tone for the latest generation of rightwingers.  The 'success' of the economy in the 80s was due largely to Paul Volcker's efforts and not Reagan's.

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2008, 07:19:15 AM »
I'm a socialist armed with the facts.  Reagan's Coolidge/Hoover approach to government set the stage for the worst president in history: W.  The same failed policies of little regulation, no oversight and fiscal mismanagement (borrow and spend) set the economic tone for the latest generation of rightwingers.  The 'success' of the economy in the 80s was due largely to Paul Volcker's efforts and not Reagan's.


Hahahahahahahahah!!!!! Oh brother... You're "facts" are a lot of loosely associated events which you seem to string together to try and blame everything on Repubs what is really liberals standing in the way of the constitution, individual liberty, and free-market capitalism for 30 years.

Can someone say "blind"?

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2008, 07:39:37 AM »

Hahahahahahahahah!!!!! Oh brother... You're "facts" are a lot of loosely associated events which you seem to string together .....
Reagan's tax cuts caused the economic boom of the 1980s.

Reagan's tax cuts paved the way for the economic boom of the 1990s under Clinton.

Reagan won the cold war by asking the Soviets to tear down a wall.

Quote
....to try and blame everything on Repubs what is really liberals standing in the way of the constitution, individual liberty, and free-market capitalism for 30 years.
We live in a Socialist Democratic Republic.  Get used to it.  It's our history.

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2008, 08:12:36 AM »
Reagan's tax cuts caused the economic boom of the 1980s.

Reagan's tax cuts paved the way for the economic boom of the 1990s under Clinton.

Reagan won the cold war by asking the Soviets to tear down a wall.
We live in a Socialist Democratic Republic.  Get used to it.  It's our history.

Reagan did more than cut taxes.. but you already know that.  ;D

We live in a constitutional republic with some socialist elements.  That's our history, period. 

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2008, 08:38:06 AM »
The gold standard was restricting the government's ability to affect the money supply.  It had to go.
Are you aware what that has done to the dollar since?  How much national debt we would not have had it not gone?  The gold standard kept the Govt spending inline.  With it gone, they can take loans out in your name, my name, kids names....  Socialism is the fastest path to wide spread poverty.  It never works without capitalist nation to prop it up.  It is also a sure fire way to install corrupt governments.

The republican recipe of low taxes, little or no regulation and unenforced anti-trust laws ruled the day. 
low taxes...  lol We aren't even supposed to be taxed on our income at all! Before Willson we were not taxed at all on our income.  Thanks to the Fed we now have national debt again.  I say again because Andrew Jackson killed the first central bank and the economy grew on average 10% yearly after.  He was the last president to pay off the national debt.

If we stuck to the constitution and let congress coin money to beguin with tax on income would not even need to be a debate.  As it stands now every dollar printed is debt.  A loan if you will.  Bah your a socialist, you already drank to kool aid.  Why not move to china then.  lol

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2008, 08:52:11 AM »
Are you aware what that has done to the dollar since?  How much national debt we would not have had it not gone?  The gold standard kept the Govt spending inline.  With it gone, they can take loans out in your name, my name, kids names....  Socialism is the fastest path to wide spread poverty.  It never works without capitalist nation to prop it up.  It is also a sure fire way to install corrupt governments.
The gold standard is not an elastic standard.  That handicaps the gov.'s ability to intervene in the collapse of free market recessions into full blown depressions.  Since the goldstandard was shitcanned and Keynesian spending was adopted, this country has not had a Depression.

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low taxes...  lol We aren't even supposed to be taxed on our income at all! Before Willson we were not taxed at all on our income.  Thanks to the Fed we now have national debt again.  I say again because Andrew Jackson killed the first central bank and the economy grew on average 10% yearly after.  He was the last president to pay off the national debt.
Thanks to gov. spending, we have a national debt.  The political system is predicated on free elections where candidate's bringing home pork spending usually do pretty well and are re-elected for such gifts to the People.

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If we stuck to the constitution and let congress coin money to beguin with tax on income would not even need to be a debate.  As it stands now every dollar printed is debt.  A loan if you will.  Bah your a socialist, you already drank to kool aid.  Why not move to china then.  lol
There is no magic historical moment in constitutional law that is applicable to today's situation.  We can't go back to the old ways b/c it is no longer 1776.

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2008, 09:06:46 AM »
Reagan did more than cut taxes.. but you already know that.  ;D

...
Quite right!  He helped establish 'borrow and spend' as normative republican economics.  He also traded weapons with Iranian terrorists...that's treason.

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2008, 04:10:00 PM »
Reagan's tax cuts caused the economic boom of the 1980s.

Reagan's tax cuts paved the way for the economic boom of the 1990s under Clinton.

Reagan won the cold war by asking the Soviets to tear down a wall.
We live in a Socialist Democratic Republic.  Get used to it.  It's our history.

The expansion of a Global economy is why the Clinton years did so well... NAFTA and other forms of free trade aided that to a large extent, but its biting us now.


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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2008, 04:11:21 PM »
I think some of you are forgetting American History and how the corruption of and in the Grant Administration proves that the Gold Standard as an archaic,implausible,finite,debauched and inelastic monetary system. Now for your History Lesson.


Panic of 1873



The Panic of 1873 was the start of the Long Depression, a severe nationwide economic depression in the United States that lasted until 1879. It was precipitated by the bankruptcy of the Philadelphia banking firm Jay Cooke on September 18, 1873, following the crash on May 9, 1873 of the Vienna Stock Exchange in Austria (the so-called Gründerkrach or “founders' crash”). It was one of a series of economic crises in the 19th and early 20th centuries.


  
Causes

 United States


In September 1873, the American economy entered a crisis. This followed a period of post Civil War economic overexpansion that arose from the Northern railroad boom. It came at the end of a series of economic setbacks: the Black Friday panic of 1869, the Chicago fire of 1871, the outbreak of equine influenza in 1872, and the demonetization of silver in 1873.

The Black Friday panic was caused by the attempt of Jay Gould and Jim Fisk to corner the gold market in 1869. They were prevented from doing so by the decision of the administration of President Ulysses S. Grant to release government gold for sale. The drive culminated in a day of panic when thousands were ruined - Friday, September 24, 1869, popularly called Black Friday. There was great indignation against the perpetrators.

Coming at the height of an extemely dry period, the Chicago fire of October 8-9, 1871, caused a loss of nearly $200 million in property in a blaze that overran four square miles. Its effect was compounded by simultaneous fires at Holland, Michigan, Manistee, Michigan, and Peshtigo, Wisconsin. The lumbering industry boomed as Chicago rebuilt, but other sectors of the economy were disordered by the financial losses incurred in the series of fires.[1]

The outbreak of equine influenza in 1872 had a pervasive effect on the economy. Called the “ Great Epizoötic”, it had an effect on every aspect of American transportation. The whole street railway industry ground to a halt. Locomotives came to a halt as coal or wood could not be delivered to power them. Even the United States Army Cavalry was reduced to fighting the Western tribes on foot; their adversaries likewise found their mounts too sick to do battle. The outbreak forced men to pull wagons by hand, while trains and ships full of cargo sat unloaded, tram cars stood idle and deliveries of basic community essentials were no longer being made. The effect this disease had on the US economy should not be understated.[2]

The Coinage Act of 1873 changed the United States policy with respect to silver. Before the Act, the United States had backed its currency with both gold and silver, and it minted both types of coins. The Act moved the United States to the gold standard, which meant it would no longer buy silver at a statutory price or convert silver from the public into silver coins (and stopped minting silver dollars altogether.)

The Act had the immediate effect of depressing silver prices. This hurt Western mining interests, who labeled the Act "The Crime of '73." Its effect was offset somewhat by the introduction of a silver trade dollar for use in the Orient, and by the discovery of new silver deposits at Virginia City, Nevada, resulting in new investment in mining activity.[3] But the coinage law also reduced the domestic money supply, which hurt farmers and anyone else who carried heavy debt loads. The resulting outcry raised serious questions about how long the new policy would last.[4] This perception of instability in United States monetary policy caused investors to shy away from long-term obligations, particularly long-term bonds. The problem was compounded by the railroad boom, which was in its later stages at the time.

At the end of the Civil War, there was a boom in railroad construction, with 35,000 miles (56,000 km) of new track laid across the country between 1866 and 1873. The railroad industry, at the time the nation's largest employer outside of agriculture, involved large amounts of money and risk. A large infusion of cash from speculators caused abnormal growth in the industry and overbuilding of docks, factories and ancillary facilities. At the same time, too much capital was involved in projects offering no immediate or early returns.[5]

Jay Cooke & Company fails

In September 1873, Jay Cooke & Company, a major component of the United States' banking establishment, found itself unable to market several million dollars in Northern Pacific Railway bonds. Cooke's firm, like many others, was invested heavily in the railroads. At a time when investment banks were anxious for more capital for their enterprises, President Ulysses S. Grant's monetary policy of contracting the money supply made matters worse. While businesses were expanding, the money they needed to finance that growth was becoming more scarce.

Cooke and other entrepreneurs had planned to build the nation's second transcontinental railroad, called the Northern Pacific Railway. Cooke's firm provided the financing, and ground was broken near Duluth, Minnesota, for the line on February 15, 1870. But just as Cooke was about to swing a $300 million government loan in September 1873, reports circulated that his firm's credit had become nearly worthless. On September 18, the firm declared bankruptcy.[6][7][8] The Northern Pacific would not be completed until 1883, and then by another financier: Henry Villard.[9][10]

Europe

A similar process of overexpansion was going on in Germany and Austria, where the period from German unification in 1870-71 to the crash in 1873 came to be called the Gründerjahre or "founders' years." A liberalized incorporation law in Germany led to the founding of new enterprises, such as the Deutsche Bank, as well as the incorporation of established ones. Euphoria over the military victory against France in 1871, combined with the influx of capital from the payment by France of war reparations, encouraged stock market speculation in railways, factories, docks, steamships - in short, the same areas of overexpansion as in the United States.[11]

On May 9, 1873, the Vienna Stock Exchange crashed, no longer able to sustain false expansion, insolvency, and dishonest manipulations. A series of Viennese bank failures resulted, causing a contraction of the money available for business lending. In Berlin, the railway empire of Bethel Henry Strousberg crashed, bursting the speculation bubble there. The contraction of the German economy was exacerbated by the conclusion of war reparations payments to Germany by France in September 1873. Coming two years after the founding of the German Empire, the panic became known as the Gründerkrach or "founders' crash".[12][13][14]

Effects

In Vienna and Berlin, Paris and London, St. Petersburg and New York, the business cycle had run its course. The failure of the Jay Cooke bank, followed quickly by that of Henry Clews, set off a chain reaction of bank failures and temporarily closed the New York stock market. Factories began to lay off workers as the United States slipped into depression. The effects of the panic were quickly felt in New York, more slowly in Chicago, Virginia City and San Francisco.[15][16][17]

The New York Stock Exchange closed for ten days starting September 20. Of the country's 364 railroads, 89 went bankrupt. A total of 18,000 businesses failed between 1873 and 1875. Unemployment reached 14% by 1876, during a time which became known as the Long Depression. Construction work lagged, wages were cut, real estate values fell and corporate profits vanished.[18][19]

Recovery from the crash was much quicker in Europe than in America.[20][21] Moreover, German businesses managed to avoid the sort of deep wage cuts that exacerbated American labor relations at the time.[22] There was a racial component to the economic recovery in Germany and Austria as small investors irrationally blamed the Jews for their losses in the crash.[23][24]

German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck gradually veered away from liberal economic policies in the 1870s, finally embracing a full conservative program, including trade protectionism, in 1879.[25][26][27]

Wage cuts and poor working conditions among American railroad workers resulted in the Great Railroad Strike of 1877, preventing the trains from moving, especially in Pennsylvania and the great railway hub of Chicago. President Rutherford B. Hayes sent in federal troops in an attempt to stop the strikes. Fights between strikers and troops killed more than 100 and left many more injured. Further trouble came in July 1877 in the form of a crash in the market for lumber, resulting in the bankruptcy of several leading Michigan lumbering concerns.[28] The effects of the resulting second business slump reached California by 1878.[29]

The tension between workers and the leaders of banking and manufacturing interests lingered on well after the depression lifted in the spring of 1879, the end of the crisis coinciding with the beginning of the great wave of immigration into the United States which lasted until the early 1920s.

Poor economic conditions caused voters to turn against the Republican Party. In the 1874 congressional elections, the Democrats assumed control of the House. Public opinion during the period made it difficult for the Grant Administration to develop a coherent policy regarding the Southern states. The North began to steer away from Reconstruction. As Southern states fell to the Democrats, African Americans found that they could no longer pursue activist policies of reform. Retrenchment was a common response of southern states to state debts during the depression. As funds were cut from state governments, education often suffered, despite being an integral part of blacks’ hopes for social reform. Finally, the election of the Republican candidate, Rutherford B. Hayes, to the Presidency in the disputed election of 1876 led to the end of Reconstruction in March 1877.[30]

The True Adonis

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2008, 04:14:14 PM »
Gold is easily synthesized and can be man-made.  Why would you want to base your countries wealth on a finite resource that does not occur globally nor does it hold value in some countries.

Just like Diamonds, the value is perception, nothing more.  Pointless to base wealth on.

Hereford

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2008, 04:15:54 PM »
Gold is easily synthesized and can be man-made.  Why would you want to base your countries wealth on a finite resource that does not occur globally nor does it hold value in some countries.

Just like Diamonds, the value is perception, nothing more.  Pointless to base wealth on.

Agreed. Why is gold really so valuable? What is it's REAL worth?

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2008, 05:56:07 PM »
Quite right!  He helped establish 'borrow and spend' as normative republican economics.  He also traded weapons with Iranian terrorists...that's treason.

hahahaha... wow.  So now Reagan is a traitor too huh?  Gimmie a break. 

I know, I know.. you ran off the reservation years ago I'm sure.

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2008, 09:30:22 AM »
hahahaha... wow.  So now Reagan is a traitor too huh?  Gimmie a break. 

I know, I know.. you ran off the reservation years ago I'm sure.
He was a traitor to the USA the moment he went behind the Congress's back to deal with our enemy in Iran to fund rightwing death squads in El Salvador.

or 'freedom fighers' as reagan called them.

Were they freedom fighters when they cut the tits off of peasant women...or when they slaughtered nuns....or when they butchered families to intimidate the rest of the farmer peasants?

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2008, 09:34:04 AM »
He was a traitor to the USA the moment he went behind the Congress's back to deal with our enemy in Iran to fund rightwing death squads in El Salvador.

or 'freedom fighers' as reagan called them.

Were they freedom fighters when they cut the tits off of peasant women...or when they slaughtered nuns....or when they butchered families to intimidate the rest of the farmer peasants?

Funny how Saddam was guilty of all this and more and Bush going after him was somehow a mistake.. hmmm......  ::)

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2008, 09:45:25 AM »
Funny how Saddam was guilty of all this and more and Bush going after him was somehow a mistake.. hmmm......  ::)
Funny how you rightwingers can mischaracterize a fact pattern to fit the trappings of your black little hearts.

How is Reagan's funding death squads from the proceeds of weapons sales to our enemies in Iran the same thing as  a brutal dictatorship in a land far away?

HHmmmmmmmm?

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2008, 10:46:15 AM »
Funny how you rightwingers can mischaracterize a fact pattern to fit the trappings of your black little hearts.

How is Reagan's funding death squads from the proceeds of weapons sales to our enemies in Iran the same thing as  a brutal dictatorship in a land far away?

HHmmmmmmmm?

Our enemy was communism than radical Islam.  I don't condone human rights abuses but we fight bigger problems first and one at a time.

Liberals are so lame in claiming to give a shit about human rights abuses but if you can use that action against a Repub you don't like then, all of a sudden, NO ONE CARES ANYMORE!! lol.

Just admit it.. you're a hypocrite.

In fact, your loony side should be jumping for joy we went to Iraq.  American soldiers have died and been wounded (since you hate the military and soldiers are somewhere between dog food and toilet water to you) and a murderous, fascist, torturous, and woman-hating regime has been brought to it's knees (not to mention they were all religious nuts and we all know how you feel about those religious types). ;D


Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2008, 11:06:17 AM »
Our enemy was communism than radical Islam.  I don't condone human rights abuses but we fight bigger problems first and one at a time.
Huh?  So that justifies the slaughter of farmers and peasants?  We're at war...a cold war...with communism.  Would you peasants please line up so we can kill you b/c you believe you have a voice in your country's government?  Please be good chaps about this.  We don't want a mess.

Quote
Liberals are so lame in claiming to give a shit about human rights abuses but if you can use that action against a Repub you don't like then, all of a sudden, NO ONE CARES ANYMORE!! lol.
Of all the insane spin you push, this is right at the top.  Your egotistical rambling about liberals villifying a republican for invading Iraq (to stop human rights abuses??? hahahahaha) just b/c he's a republican is awesomely foolish.

Did Bush order the invasion to stop these human rights abuses in Iraq?  Isn't that the same Bush that pushed for torture?  The same Bush that pushed for houses of horrors like Abu Ghraib?  The same Bush that ordered an illegal invasion of Iraq killing some 100,000+ innocents?

He is the epitome of a human rights president!

Quote
Just admit it.. you're a hypocrite.
You see hypocrisy b/c you want to see it.  When the facts are laid out, you end up supporting a rogue mass murdering president in Bush and traitor like Reagan.

Quote
In fact, your loony side should be jumping for joy we went to Iraq.  American soldiers have died and been wounded (since you hate the military and soldiers are somewhere between dog food and toilet water to you) and a murderous, fascist, torturous, and woman-hating regime has been brought to it's knees (not to mention they were all religious nuts and we all know how you feel about those religious types). ;D
Here here.  You put a fine point on the issue of whether rightwingers live in a complete fantasy world that caters to their prejudice via wish fulfillment.



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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2008, 08:37:43 AM »
Huh?  So that justifies the slaughter of farmers and peasants?  We're at war...a cold war...with communism.  Would you peasants please line up so we can kill you b/c you believe you have a voice in your country's government?  Please be good chaps about this.  We don't want a mess.
Of all the insane spin you push, this is right at the top.  Your egotistical rambling about liberals villifying a republican for invading Iraq (to stop human rights abuses??? hahahahaha) just b/c he's a republican is awesomely foolish.

Did Bush order the invasion to stop these human rights abuses in Iraq?  Isn't that the same Bush that pushed for torture?  The same Bush that pushed for houses of horrors like Abu Ghraib?  The same Bush that ordered an illegal invasion of Iraq killing some 100,000+ innocents?

He is the epitome of a human rights president!
You see hypocrisy b/c you want to see it.  When the facts are laid out, you end up supporting a rogue mass murdering president in Bush and traitor like Reagan.
Here here.  You put a fine point on the issue of whether rightwingers live in a complete fantasy world that caters to their prejudice via wish fulfillment.





lol... MELTDOWN

Of course fighting a larger enemy doesn't justify it but, like I said, priority was bigger fish to fry.  Saddams record was one of MANY reasons used to justify the war.  Liberal idiots.. YOU, focus solely on WMDs because god-forbid we actually had good reasons to go to Baghdad.  And comparing Abu Ghraib and Gitmo to the kind of torture Saddam used?!?!?! Puh-leez!! lol ;D  Everything I said was spot on and you need to take off your dress and admit it.

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2008, 08:49:16 AM »
The same Bush that ordered an illegal invasion of Iraq killing some 100,000+ innocents?

Don't be silly Decker, 100,000 dead people mean nothing, nothing at all.

Piss on little Iraqi kids. I see nothing wrong at all with killing stacks of them. Babies too. Only lives that matter are those that wave an American flag.I see no reason, none at all for anyone to be mad over 100,000 dead people. They should be happy, being killed is nice ::)


Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2008, 05:28:15 AM »

lol... MELTDOWN

Of course fighting a larger enemy doesn't justify it but, like I said, priority was bigger fish to fry.  Saddams record was one of MANY reasons used to justify the war.  Liberal idiots.. YOU, focus solely on WMDs because god-forbid we actually had good reasons to go to Baghdad.  And comparing Abu Ghraib and Gitmo to the kind of torture Saddam used?!?!?! Puh-leez!! lol ;D  Everything I said was spot on and you need to take off your dress and admit it.
"meltdown..."  What a conclusive way to end a discussion.  You win.  I don't...know....how....to counter this....'meltdown'...

You're wrong.  That's what's so right about you.  Those 100,000 - 700,000 dead Iraqis were not killed by Bush's murderous invasion.  They died falling in the shower or tripping over their couches.

You site 'good reasons' for invading Iraq.  Good to whom?  You or the 700,000 dead Iraqis?

As for my dress, well, let's see how you hold up a taffeta dream like the one I'm wearing when you're my age Mr. SPot On.

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2008, 05:28:53 AM »
Don't be silly Decker, 100,000 dead people mean nothing, nothing at all.

Piss on little Iraqi kids. I see nothing wrong at all with killing stacks of them. Babies too. Only lives that matter are those that wave an American flag.I see no reason, none at all for anyone to be mad over 100,000 dead people. They should be happy, being killed is nice ::)


Now you're coming around to the Right Way of thinking!

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2008, 05:47:43 AM »
Iraq is better off with American intervention.

In Iraq people have the right to vote and violence is
down substantially from before the invasion with
150,000(New England Journal of Medicine) killed in the
last 5 years, although the levels of violence is still
too high. In fact the first 12 years of rule under
Saddam Hussein were more violent with over 300,000
iraqi's (Human right watch) and over 375,000 killed in
the iran iraq war,and substantially better then under
the oil for food program where according to the UN
1,000,000 iraqi's died in 9 years(CNN).
Z

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2008, 06:01:40 AM »
Iraq is better off with American intervention.

In Iraq people have the right to vote and violence is
down substantially from before the invasion with
150,000(New England Journal of Medicine) killed in the
last 5 years, although the levels of violence is still
too high. In fact the first 12 years of rule under
Saddam Hussein were more violent with over 300,000
iraqi's (Human right watch) and over 375,000 killed in
the iran iraq war,and substantially better then under
the oil for food program where according to the UN
1,000,000 iraqi's died in 9 years(CNN).
Iraq is worse off after the illegal Bush invasion.

100,000-700,000 dead Iraqis would agree with me.

2-4 million displaced Iraqis would agree with me.

4000 dead American soldiers are on my side.

How about the 31,000 wounded US vets....One leg, destroyed face, shattered mind...

How about the 600 billion spent to destroy and rebuild the country (in a halfassed manner)?  That's our money.  Shit, we could have just bribed each and every Iraqi citizen to lighten up.

I am not an Iraqi sympathizer and I don't give one fuck if they have some semblance of democratic voting.