Author Topic: 3 worst Presidents in History...  (Read 19842 times)

a_joker10

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2008, 06:21:26 AM »
The facts are Iraq is better now then when Saddam was leader.

There were over 1.8 million Iraqi's killed under Saddam Hussein.

The numbers by any estimation are less.

The American army is all volunteer. People that sign up know they are going to Iraq or Afghanistan. It is a choice they make.

Also Afghanistan has been harder on American and coalition soldiers per capita then Iraq.
This year there so far there have been 286 soldiers killed in Iraq, there are over 150,000 soldiers in Iraq.
258 US and coalition soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan, there are just over 50,000 soldier there.
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Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2008, 06:35:34 AM »
The facts are Iraq is better now then when Saddam was leader.

There were over 1.8 million Iraqi's killed under Saddam Hussein.

The numbers by any estimation are less.
I don't think so.

Quote
The American army is all volunteer. People that sign up know they are going to Iraq or Afghanistan. It is a choice they make.
So they got what was coming to them?

Let me guess, you support the troops right?

Do I have to point out how evil your contention is or do you understand that now?


Quote
Also Afghanistan has been harder on American and coalition soldiers per capita then Iraq.
That might be a valid point if the Iraq invasion was not illegitimate from the outset.  It's an illegal war tantamount to murder.

Five years of occupation have destroyed Iraq as a country. Baghdad is today a collection of hostile Sunni and Shiite ghettoes divided by high concrete walls. Different districts even have different national flags. Sunni areas use the old Iraqi flag with the three stars of the Baath party, and the Shiite wave a newer version, adopted by the Shiite-Kurdish government. The Kurds have their own flag.

The Iraqi government tries to give the impression that normality is returning. Iraqi journalists are told not to mention the continuing violence. When a bomb exploded in Karada district near my hotel, killing 70 people, the police beat and drove away a television cameraman trying to take pictures of the devastation. Civilian casualties have fallen from 65 Iraqis killed daily from November 2006 to August 2007 to 26 daily in February. But the fall in the death rate is partly because ethnic cleansing has already done its grim work and in much of Baghdad there are no mixed areas left.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/355506_iraq19.html

We can further quantify the failure of the invasion and the failure to bring current Iraq up to standards seen under Hussein.  Look at the electricity available, potable water available, higher educational insitutions destroyed and not rebuilt, wholesale displacement of communities where Sunnis try to come home only to find their properties taken by Shia families. 

It's a huge failure.

a_joker10

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2008, 06:53:21 AM »
Deaths are down.
It may not be perfect but Iraqi casualties are there lowest in over 2 years.

CASUALTIES:

_Confirmed U.S. military deaths as of May 2008: at least 4,085.

_Confirmed U.S. military wounded (hostile) as of May 30, 2008: 30,143.

_Confirmed U.S. military wounded (non-hostile, using medical air transport) as of May 3, 2008: 32,248

_U.S. military deaths for May 2008: 19.

_Deaths of civilian employees of U.S. government contractors as of March 31, 2008, the most recent figure available: 1,181.

_Iraqi deaths in May from war-related violence:

The Iraqi civilian casualty count so far for the month of May is at its lowest level since December 2005. According to Associated Press reporting through May 30, at least 528 Iraqis (excluding insurgents) have been killed in war-related violence. This is an average of 17 deaths per day, and is less than half of the 1,080 reported killed during April.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hYGX5eW9D0fsF_dr-CFT5nEG0d7wD9121ILO0

Also more people have water and sewer service and power generation.


ELECTRICITY:

_Prewar nationwide: 3,958 megawatts. Hours per day (estimated): 4-8.

_May 26, 2008 nationwide: 4,110 megawatts. Hours per day: 9.9.

_Prewar Baghdad: 2,500 megawatts. Hours per day (estimated): 16-24.

_May 26, 2008 Baghdad: Megawatts not available. Hours per day: 7.3.

_Note: Current Baghdad megawatt figures are no longer reported by the U.S. State Department's Iraq Weekly Status Report.

TELEPHONES:

_Prewar land lines: 833,000.

_April 4, 2008: 1,360,000.

_Prewar cell phones: 80,000.

_April 30, 2008: More than 12 million.

WATER:

_Prewar: 12.9 million people had potable water.

_April 30, 2008: 20.9 million people have potable water.

SEWERAGE:

_Prewar: 6.2 million people served.

_April 30, 2008: 11.3 million people served.

(Note: The number for sewerage has not changed in the newest SIGIR report.)

This was from May.

Why is it evil to point out that people sign up to fight in wars. It is a risky venture that not all people want to do, but people sign up for risky jobs all of the time. It is the governments job to make it safer, but there will always be risk in combat and I have no idea if any of the 4000 soldiers that have died in Iraq are on your side, many  soldiers have gone to Iraq to fight in war that they believed in.
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Brixtonbulldog

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2008, 07:20:47 AM »
Those dead soldiers probably wouldn't agree with you either.

You must be the most spineless member on getbig.  Yeah, it's a war.  People die.  People were dying under Hussein as well.  The point of war is to prevent further devastation and if the war provides an eventual means of stability and prosperity for Iraqis than it was a good thing.  I know your side consistently supports failure and defeat so that would just be awful for you, wouldn't it?

50 years from now Iraq may be flourishing and far better off than under Hussein yet you'll still be clinging to your nutless philosophy.  Iraq is better off and if we continue to support it will stay that way.

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2008, 07:20:58 AM »
This was from May.

Why is it evil to point out that people sign up to fight in wars. It is a risky venture that not all people want to do, but people sign up for risky jobs all of the time. It is the governments job to make it safer, but there will always be risk in combat and I have no idea if any of the 4000 soldiers that have died in Iraq are on your side, many  soldiers have gone to Iraq to fight in war that they believed in.
Your tables showing a decline in casualties is not relevant.  Those people should not be dead or wounded in the first place.  That's like making the comparision btn homicide rates btn a large US city and deaths in Iraq.  It's evil.

Would you have walked into Columbine after the disaster and tell the survivors that "hey , you should feel lucky!.  More people die in Chicago on a daily basis than died here at your high school!"

Clean water often a luxury in Iraq
About 40 percent of Iraqi households still don’t have running water, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

In Baghdad, about two-thirds of the city’s sewage still flows untreated to rivers and other waterways, said Lt. Col. Jarrett Purdue, the head of the water sector for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Gulf Region Division.

Most estimates put the total cost of delivering clean water across Iraq at more than $10 billion, and that number goes up every time insurgents target pipelines, pumping stations and other facilities. A homemade bomb recently broke a water main in Baghdad’s Adhamiyah neighborhood, cutting service to hundreds of thousands of people, the U.S. military said.
http://www.ajc.com/services/content/printedition/2008/11/09/irwater.html

I don't know where you pulled your numbers but they are wrong.  The US blew up the water and sewage systems (A war crime) and now we will pay 10 billion dollars to fix what we destroyed.  How nice that is.

All that for only $10 billion.  I guess the invasion was a success!

For Iraqis, the lack of reliable power has been one of the biggest frustrations of the war. The U.S. government has committed $4.91 billion to repairing the ravaged electricity infrastructure and bringing new generating units online. But most Iraqis can count on just a few hours of power a day.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/14/world/fg-solar14

Only around 5 billion dollars to rebuild that which we destroyed.


An army of people who volunteered to defend our country were used as murderous tools by the Bush Administration.  The risk and death faced in Iraq should have never happened.  It was not normal.  It was not in the scope of the duty for which these men and women enlisted.

They did not get what they deserved.  They were used and abused and discarded.


Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2008, 07:27:28 AM »
Those dead soldiers probably wouldn't agree with you either.

You must be the most spineless member on getbig.  Yeah, it's a war.  People die.  People were dying under Hussein as well.  The point of war is to prevent further devastation and if the war provides an eventual means of stability and prosperity for Iraqis than it was a good thing.  I know your side consistently supports failure and defeat so that would just be awful for you, wouldn't it?

50 years from now Iraq may be flourishing and far better off than under Hussein yet you'll still be clinging to your nutless philosophy.  Iraq is better off and if we continue to support it will stay that way.
You are wrong.  So what's new.  When anyone wants to get the horse's ass perspective, bingo, Brixton enters the Fray!
Why do you call a crime against humanity a war?

You may be right about the dead soldiers--they follow orders the way you do.  Bush tells you of the heroism of slaughtering children, seniors, men, women and you wave the flag and answer "Yes sir!"

The war was started b/c of WMDs so cut the shit about helping Iraqis.

How does killing 650,000 Iraqis help them?  Take your time with that one, there will be a quiz.

50 years from now?  Who are you fucking Kreskin?  Do you have some magic ability to foresee the future like the Oracle at Delphi?

You're a typical starry-eyed rightwinger.  'You just wait....50 years from now you'll be proven wrong!'

How cowardly of you.

a_joker10

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2008, 07:41:31 AM »
The numbers came form an AP story about the progress in Iraq in May.
It was a direct cut and paste.
The groups that provided the information were SIGIR and the U.S. State Department's Iraq Weekly Status Report.
http://www.sigir.mil/reports/quarterlyreports/Oct08/Default.aspx
http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/iraqstatus/

All of this is better then under Saddam.
Things are bad, but they are better then they were.
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CQ

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2008, 07:55:02 AM »
What kills me is who gives the right to one nation to decide what is better for another and decide to invade and kill people.

Irony is they run around like world dictators while preaching democracy. Plus I thought it was about WMD? Oh whoops that was a lie. ::)

It's a terrible day when humans condone the killing of others.

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2008, 08:07:27 AM »
You are wrong.  So what's new.  When anyone wants to get the horse's ass perspective, bingo, Brixton enters the Fray!
Why do you call a crime against humanity a war?

You may be right about the dead soldiers--they follow orders the way you do.  Bush tells you of the heroism of slaughtering children, seniors, men, women and you wave the flag and answer "Yes sir!"

The war was started b/c of WMDs so cut the shit about helping Iraqis.

How does killing 650,000 Iraqis help them?  Take your time with that one, there will be a quiz.

50 years from now?  Who are you fucking Kreskin?  Do you have some magic ability to foresee the future like the Oracle at Delphi?

You're a typical starry-eyed rightwinger.  'You just wait....50 years from now you'll be proven wrong!'

How cowardly of you.
That shit was hilarious man! I'm stealing that when someone comes to me with some bullshit  ;D, even though I do agree with him more but thats besides the point.

Buffgeek

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2008, 08:12:34 AM »
What kills me is who gives the right to one nation to decide what is better for another and decide to invade and kill people.

Irony is they run around like world dictators while preaching democracy. Plus I thought it was about WMD? Oh whoops that was a lie. ::)

It's a terrible day when humans condone the killing of others.

This post is kind of ignorant.

The UN security council passed a resolution that was approved by the UN security council authorizing action if Saddam didnt comply. Several countries had intelligence that lead us to believe that the WMD were there so we went in. This could have easily been avoided if Sadaam had come clean, but based on passed actions he had no reason to belive that it was just another basless threat from a lame duck ogranization. He had everything to lose if we all found out he had nothing.... turns out he had everything to lose by continuing his actions.

We with our partners went in to disarm Saddam. Turns out several intelligence agencies across the world were wrong about the weapons they believed him to have so we now enter a phase where we try to give the country back to the people that inhabit it. We did not take their resources and we have not randomly exterminated them. We have given them a framework and the choice to create their own goverment and sovereignty.


CQ

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2008, 08:59:55 AM »
This post is kind of ignorant.

The UN security council passed a resolution that was approved by the UN security council authorizing action if Saddam didnt comply. Several countries had intelligence that lead us to believe that the WMD were there so we went in. This could have easily been avoided if Sadaam had come clean, but based on passed actions he had no reason to belive that it was just another basless threat from a lame duck ogranization. He had everything to lose if we all found out he had nothing.... turns out he had everything to lose by continuing his actions.

We with our partners went in to disarm Saddam. Turns out several intelligence agencies across the world were wrong about the weapons they believed him to have so we now enter a phase where we try to give the country back to the people that inhabit it. We did not take their resources and we have not randomly exterminated them. We have given them a framework and the choice to create their own goverment and sovereignty.


No it's not ignorant, look at world levels. The USA is the most interventionist nation that ever existed.

The USA acts like the world police, even many Americans admit that. To deny that is ignorant.

And if you think it's ignorant to be againest killing of humans, well there really is no debating that point :-\

Buffgeek

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2008, 09:54:31 AM »
No it's not ignorant, look at world levels. The USA is the most interventionist nation that ever existed.

The USA acts like the world police, even many Americans admit that. To deny that is ignorant.

And if you think it's ignorant to be againest killing of humans, well there really is no debating that point :-\

Ok look at is this way:

Can you give some examples of where you think USA acts like the world police? Would you prefer a nation with power such as ours become more isolationist and turns a blind eye to everything?

I would never disagree with you that it is ignorant to be against killing people. But you made it sound like we just went into Iraq and just started ranomlly killing people. Also there seemed to be an insinuation that we have just been continaually killing people.

Typically in war, when people are shooting at you, the point is to kill them first. Also since the initial fall of Saddam, the people that have died have been to cowardly suicide bombers and terrorists. A great many Iraqis have died to these same people who are continuing to attack us.

CQ

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2008, 10:10:49 AM »
Ok look at is this way:

Can you give some examples of where you think USA acts like the world police? Would you prefer a nation with power such as ours become more isolationist and turns a blind eye to everything?

I would never disagree with you that it is ignorant to be against killing people. But you made it sound like we just went into Iraq and just started ranomlly killing people. Also there seemed to be an insinuation that we have just been continaually killing people.

Typically in war, when people are shooting at you, the point is to kill them first. Also since the initial fall of Saddam, the people that have died have been to cowardly suicide bombers and terrorists. A great many Iraqis have died to these same people who are continuing to attack us.

Valid points, but the fact remains whichever study one believes 100,000 odd Iraqis are dead. Fact remains the US is a foriegn force in someone's else country. Just facts.

Examples of the US being the world police, lol, be serious. Starting with 80 military bases worldwide, uh how many nations have been bombed this past month alone - 4 is it? Not even to mention history, dear god where to start, especially if one counts the covert issues like the contras and Shah or Iran. I do drivel but really, can't expect me to write a book on that >:(

It is very accepted the US has an interventionist policy, really no disputing that. I am not saying it's all bad, it's not, but I do not agree with one nation trying to rule the world.

Buffgeek

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2008, 10:22:44 AM »
Valid points, but the fact remains whichever study one believes 100,000 odd Iraqis are dead. Fact remains the US is a foriegn force in someone's else country. Just facts.

Examples of the US being the world police, lol, be serious. Starting with 80 military bases worldwide, uh how many nations have been bombed this past month alone - 4 is it? Not even to mention history, dear god where to start, especially if one counts the covert issues like the contras and Shah or Iran. I do drivel but really, can't expect me to write a book on that >:(

It is very accepted the US has an interventionist policy, really no disputing that. I am not saying it's all bad, it's not, but I do not agree with one nation trying to rule the world.

There is no doubt the US has a tremendous presence in the world, but we are also the world most powerful nation. Can you name any 1 nation in the history of the world with that title that has been less despotic than the US?  We hold back considerably it seems.

Chances are however that things may change in the very near future. Empires fall always from within...  :-\

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2008, 10:34:00 AM »
There is no doubt the US has a tremendous presence in the world, but we are also the world most powerful nation. Can you name any 1 nation in the history of the world with that title that has been less despotic than the US?  We hold back considerably it seems.

Chances are however that things may change in the very near future. Empires fall always from within...  :-\

No offense but the empire started falling a ways back. Considering the nation is just sinking into vast debt, borrowing money hand over fist, companies are failing, jobs are dropping like flies, homes are being lost, the crime, people were duped into not realizing they were losing their rights, gov bailing out businesses, the list is endless. Most people seem to accept things are not going too well now. Hardly anything new.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2008, 10:48:45 AM »
Not only Dubya is the worst, but he is the dumbest too.

Buffgeek

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2008, 10:51:15 AM »
No offense but the empire started falling a ways back. Considering the nation is just sinking into vast debt, borrowing money hand over fist, companies are failing, jobs are dropping like flies, homes are being lost, the crime, people were duped into not realizing they were losing their rights, gov bailing out businesses, the list is endless. Most people seem to accept things are not going too well now. Hardly anything new.

OK NEGATIVE NANCY!   no there are definetly some problems we are facing, but we still have incredible growth potential. The problem is the many in the US are spoiled and in denial about the finacial state of things so they keep pushing off what is inevitible. There will be a crash of some sort and we need to stop living beyond our means, but we are not quite pushing up daisys just yet  ;D

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2008, 05:58:22 PM »
You are wrong.  So what's new.  When anyone wants to get the horse's ass perspective, bingo, Brixton enters the Fray!
Why do you call a crime against humanity a war?

You may be right about the dead soldiers--they follow orders the way you do.  Bush tells you of the heroism of slaughtering children, seniors, men, women and you wave the flag and answer "Yes sir!"

The war was started b/c of WMDs so cut the shit about helping Iraqis.

How does killing 650,000 Iraqis help them?  Take your time with that one, there will be a quiz.

50 years from now?  Who are you fucking Kreskin?  Do you have some magic ability to foresee the future like the Oracle at Delphi?

You're a typical starry-eyed rightwinger.  'You just wait....50 years from now you'll be proven wrong!'

How cowardly of you.

Hahahahahah!!! Laughable, a bleeding heart america-hater calling someone else a coward!!! lol ;D  Jeez..  Funny how civilians have been killed in every other war throughout history but it's Bush who's the mass murderer.  Just to show your bias you don't differentiate between insurgents and noncombatants.  Oh wait, wait.. it doesn't matter because they're all innocent, right?!?! After all, you seem to have no problems with those who target women and children for murder unless you can lie and say it's our troops doing it.  ::)

Thank you for proving me right about your side AGAIN.

Focus on the WMDs all you want.  Every intel agency the world over believed he had em and if you'd like to pretend that's the only reason we went there go right ahead.  Not like you've been objective about anything so far anyway.

Typical media-washed chomsky assbag, "Damn the facts, we have an agenda here!!!"

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2008, 06:18:07 PM »
Hahahahahah!!! Laughable, a bleeding heart america-hater calling someone else a coward!!! lol ;D  Jeez..  Funny how civilians have been killed in every other war throughout history but it's Bush who's the mass murderer.  Just to show your bias you don't differentiate between insurgents and noncombatants.  Oh wait, wait.. it doesn't matter because they're all innocent, right?!?! After all, you seem to have no problems with those who target women and children for murder unless you can lie and say it's our troops doing it.  ::)
You've lied to yourself so long that Bush's illegal and naked attack of aggression is really a justified use force against a broken down two bit country that posed ZERO threat to the US.

How do you feel about that?  Have you really convinced yourself that Iraq was a deadly comet headed directly to the US to take us down and that the only course of action we had was attacking them first?


Quote
...
Focus on the WMDs all you want.  Every intel agency the world over believed he had em and if you'd like to pretend that's the only reason we went there go right ahead.  Not like you've been objective about anything so far anyway.

Typical media-washed chomsky assbag, "Damn the facts, we have an agenda here!!!"
Tell me honestly BB, whose opinion regarding the presence of WMDs in Iraq was more convincing:

A. These legions of intel agencies world wide claiming WMDs were in IRaq (The US's intel was 10 years old)

or

B.  The WMD inspectors on the ground in IRaq actively scouring the country with unannounced surprise inspections?

Is it A or B?

Which evidence is more probative regarding the threat posed to the US by Iraq's WMDs?

Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2008, 06:38:55 AM »
I'm still waiting on answer for this one.  If BB can't step up to the plate, can anyone else?

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2008, 08:55:38 AM »
You've lied to yourself so long that Bush's illegal and naked attack of aggression is really a justified use force against a broken down two bit country that posed ZERO threat to the US.

How do you feel about that?  Have you really convinced yourself that Iraq was a deadly comet headed directly to the US to take us down and that the only course of action we had was attacking them first?

Tell me honestly BB, whose opinion regarding the presence of WMDs in Iraq was more convincing:

A. These legions of intel agencies world wide claiming WMDs were in IRaq (The US's intel was 10 years old)

or

B.  The WMD inspectors on the ground in IRaq actively scouring the country with unannounced surprise inspections?

Is it A or B?

Which evidence is more probative regarding the threat posed to the US by Iraq's WMDs?

The same weapons inspectors that were the butt of consistent acts of deception on the part of Saddam?  ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHH AHAH!!!!!!!  Good god you're stupid.

For years they would arrive at sites and ten miles out were trucks burning up the desert in the opposite direction.  Good one Decker ;D

tu_holmes

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2008, 09:11:51 AM »
The same weapons inspectors that were the butt of consistent acts of deception on the part of Saddam?  ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHH AHAH!!!!!!!  Good god you're stupid.

For years they would arrive at sites and ten miles out were trucks burning up the desert in the opposite direction.  Good one Decker ;D

What proof do you have of this?

I've heard a lot of naysayers and Bush nut huggers state this, but I've yet to read one shred of evidence from a reputable source about this.

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2008, 09:35:17 AM »
What proof do you have of this?

I've heard a lot of naysayers and Bush nut huggers state this, but I've yet to read one shred of evidence from a reputable source about this.

Isn't it interesting that, for years, inspectors were randomly denied access and upon returning to the same sites hours/days later were then ALLOWED access?  I think even Decker could figure that one out.

Saddam hides weapons programs:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/10/iraq-031003-afps02.htm

See how many times Iraq fails to comply or cooperate:

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/iraqchron

Some interesting links:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2004/me_iraq_06_11.html


Decker

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2008, 12:07:06 PM »
Isn't it interesting that, for years, inspectors were randomly denied access and upon returning to the same sites hours/days later were then ALLOWED access?  I think even Decker could figure that one out.


See how many times Iraq fails to comply or cooperate:

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/iraqchron

Some interesting links:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2004/me_iraq_06_11.html


Thank you for not answering the question.  gutless....punk.....(Stripes)

You lie and push other's lies to make your point.  The best way to handle the likes of you is a little veracious disinfectant.

Bush broke the law the second he ordered the invasion of Iraq without UN Security Council approval.

First of all, 1441 lays out the process to be followed. Any alleged Iraqi violations are to be reported to the Security Council, which will then "convene immediately ... in order to consider the situation." Only the Council can then decide what to do next.

Secondly, 1441 does not authorize the use of "all necessary means"--the only language recognized as authorizing force. The U.S. and U.K. tried to get this phrase into the resolution, but other Security Council members rejected it. The replacement language, "serious consequences," is not, and was not intended to be, synonymous.

Third, after 1441 was adopted, every Security Council member--including the U.S. and U.K.--affirmed that it did not provide for "automaticity"--the automatic resort to force. It was this very issue over which the Council struggled for weeks. It's simply fraudulent to now claim that 1441 incorporated automaticity.

As U.S. ambassador John Negroponte said at the time, 1441 contained "no hidden triggers and no automaticity with the use of force. The procedure to be followed was laid out in the resolution."

Fourth, any Security Council authorization for the use of force must be unambiguous, to avoid exactly the present disagreement. Clearly, 1441 is not.

Fifth, only the Security Council itself can authorize the use of force under Article 42 of the Charter. The Council cannot cede that decision to individual member states.

And sixth, an authorization for the use of force always specifies the intended objective of that force. U.N. resolutions do not empower nations to use force for whatever reasons they wish. Even if 1441 did authorize the use of force to enter Iraq and detect and destroy Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, that would not authorize the stated--and quite different--purpose of this invasion: the removal of the present government from power.

In fact, Security Council resolutions cannot authorize "regime change." The U.N. Charter gives the Council no such power, and even the Council may act only within the limitations of the Charter.
http://www.robincmiller.com/iraq6-fr.htm

Your feverish attempt at conspiracy nonsense
Quote
Saddam hides weapons programs:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/10/iraq-031003-afps02.htm
also falls flat.  Read your fucking link.  It says nothing about proof of any WMDs moved by Hussein.  In fact, the hero of your piece, Dave Kay has noted the following: Two days after resigning as the Bush administration's top weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay said Sunday that his group found no evidence Iraq had stockpiled unconventional weapons before the U.S.-led invasion in March.   http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/25/sprj.nirq.kay/index.html

Now BB, do you admit you're are wrong about the "threat" posed by the feeble and broken Iraq and that President George Bush is a mass murderer for ordering the slaughter of men, women, and children without justification?


Brixtonbulldog

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Re: 3 worst Presidents in History...
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2008, 06:12:41 PM »
Thank you for not answering the question.  gutless....punk.....(Stripes)

You lie and push other's lies to make your point.  The best way to handle the likes of you is a little veracious disinfectant.

Bush broke the law the second he ordered the invasion of Iraq without UN Security Council approval.

First of all, 1441 lays out the process to be followed. Any alleged Iraqi violations are to be reported to the Security Council, which will then "convene immediately ... in order to consider the situation." Only the Council can then decide what to do next.

Secondly, 1441 does not authorize the use of "all necessary means"--the only language recognized as authorizing force. The U.S. and U.K. tried to get this phrase into the resolution, but other Security Council members rejected it. The replacement language, "serious consequences," is not, and was not intended to be, synonymous.

Third, after 1441 was adopted, every Security Council member--including the U.S. and U.K.--affirmed that it did not provide for "automaticity"--the automatic resort to force. It was this very issue over which the Council struggled for weeks. It's simply fraudulent to now claim that 1441 incorporated automaticity.

As U.S. ambassador John Negroponte said at the time, 1441 contained "no hidden triggers and no automaticity with the use of force. The procedure to be followed was laid out in the resolution."

Fourth, any Security Council authorization for the use of force must be unambiguous, to avoid exactly the present disagreement. Clearly, 1441 is not.

Fifth, only the Security Council itself can authorize the use of force under Article 42 of the Charter. The Council cannot cede that decision to individual member states.

And sixth, an authorization for the use of force always specifies the intended objective of that force. U.N. resolutions do not empower nations to use force for whatever reasons they wish. Even if 1441 did authorize the use of force to enter Iraq and detect and destroy Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, that would not authorize the stated--and quite different--purpose of this invasion: the removal of the present government from power.

In fact, Security Council resolutions cannot authorize "regime change." The U.N. Charter gives the Council no such power, and even the Council may act only within the limitations of the Charter.
http://www.robincmiller.com/iraq6-fr.htm

Your feverish attempt at conspiracy nonsense also falls flat.  Read your fucking link.  It says nothing about proof of any WMDs moved by Hussein.  In fact, the hero of your piece, Dave Kay has noted the following: Two days after resigning as the Bush administration's top weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay said Sunday that his group found no evidence Iraq had stockpiled unconventional weapons before the U.S.-led invasion in March.   http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/25/sprj.nirq.kay/index.html

Now BB, do you admit you're are wrong about the "threat" posed by the feeble and broken Iraq and that President George Bush is a mass murderer for ordering the slaughter of men, women, and children without justification?



There is no "proof" that hasn't been unclassified.  What I showed you was a very plausible and likely story based on what's available to the public.  And you refused to consider it because you're an idiot.  Those of us privy to more information know better. 

You can cry about "1441!!! UN!!! Resolutions!!! WAHHHHHH!!! WAAAAAHHHHH!!!" all day long but the fact is that it's a worthless argument for a worthless organization.  How many times did Saddam violate terms and the UN did.. nothing.  We never needed their permission since they have no real authority. 

You're right.  It says nothing of "stockpiles." Of course that doesn't matter much since it was obvious weapons programs were being pursued and Saddam continually displayed a pattern of deception.  Saddam fought inspectors every step of the way until he was FORCED to comply.  Even then he attempted to undermine their efforts.  Maybe you never asked yourself what that probably means but the rest of us have. 

Your posts make me laugh, though.  As you get more and more angry because my posts totally undermine your cowardly position it's comical how your rants become even more insulting and of emotional outbursts.  Keep crying pussy... Bush isn't any mass murderer or whatever nutcase scenario you wish would come of this.  You're an extremist and a radical.  To make things worse you also have your head up your ass and only see what you want to.