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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: headhuntersix on July 14, 2009, 06:46:34 PM
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Whats his problem with Capitalism...it would appeare to be keeping him in cheeseburgers. I mean he must shitcan atleast a half dozen Big Macs a day. Whats more capitalistic then the Golden Arches?
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I would look for a picture of a fat repub mouthpiece, but I wouldn't want to Rush to any conclusions.
Also when you attack the messenger, not the message, you make it sound like Moore is right about things so you can only attack him for being a fatass.
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Michael Moore is a propagandist
He is also a fat twat
Better ;D
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Michael Moore is a propagandist
He is also a fat twat
Better ;D
Correct on all counts!
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I would look for a picture of a fat repub mouthpiece, but I wouldn't want to Rush to any conclusions.
(http://420.thrashbarg.net/i_see_what_you_fucking_did_there_bird.jpg)
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I would look for a picture of a fat repub mouthpiece, but I wouldn't want to Rush to any conclusions.
Also when you attack the messenger, not the message, you make it sound like Moore is right about things so you can only attack him for being a fatass.
So you're a communist now?
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I would look for a picture of a fat repub mouthpiece, but I wouldn't want to Rush to any conclusions.
Also when you attack the messenger, not the message, you make it sound like Moore is right about things so you can only attack him for being a fatass.
Um we're talking about Moore..but keep trying
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His he totally against any form of capitalism? A naturally selective environment is a must, anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
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His he totally against any form of capitalism? A naturally selective environment is a must, anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
He isn`t. His movie is about Wall Street and their bailouts. As well as a look at the global financial crisis and the U.S. economy during the transition between the incoming Obama Administration and the outgoing Bush Administration.
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Did you know that Michael Moore has never gotten a fact wrong in any of his movies? Some have even tried to take him to court and EVERY SINGLE CASE has been dismissed.
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He isn`t. His movie is about Wall Street and how they don`t deserve a bailout.
I'm the biggest proponent of natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government and failure doesn't deserve a bailout. That said, looking at the bigger picture, if a bailout was required to stop the country from becoming defunct then it is the appropriate action.
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I'm the biggest proponent of natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government and failure doesn't deserve a bailout. That said, looking at the bigger picture, if a bailout was required to stop the country from becoming defunct then it is the appropriate action.
Just watch the trailer.
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Correct on all counts!
Wrong on all accounts. Please explain and show why he is a "propagandist" or where he has intentionally lied on a fact.
It is a wrong choice of words to label him a "propagandist" when in his work, he shows nothing but facts. The Right-Wing has created a mythology around him that is not true whatsoever.
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I'm the biggest proponent of natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government and failure doesn't deserve a bailout. That said, looking at the bigger picture, if a bailout was required to stop the country from becoming defunct then it is the appropriate action.
So you have no problem with corporatism at its most powerful?
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Michael Moore's opting to spoof romantic conventions in titling his upcoming documentary "Capitalism: A Love Story," which addresses the causes of the global economic meltdown.
"It will be the perfect date movie," Moore said in an announcement Wednesday. "It's got it all -- lust, passion, romance and 14,000 jobs being eliminated every day. It's a forbidden love, one that dare not speak its name. Heck, let's just say it: It's capitalism."
Moore and Overture Films had announced previously that the film would be released domestically on Oct. 2 -- a year and a day after the U.S. Senate voted to approve a $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Paramount Vantage will handle international distribution.
The film is described as focusing on "the disastrous impact that corporate dominance and out-of-control profit motives have on the lives of Americans and citizens of the world."
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So you have no problem with corporatism at its most powerful?
Socialism is a failure everywhere it is tried.
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Did you know that Michael Moore has never gotten a fact wrong in any of his movies? Some have even tried to take him to court and EVERY SINGLE CASE has been dismissed.
Do you know that Michael Moore is a lying fraud? He may not have gotten facts wrong in his movies, but he lies all the time.
Examples of his lies and hypocritical nature:
Paraphrasing - Says guns are a product of unrealistic, insecure people. Surrounds himself with heavily armed bodyguards in fear of being attacked by extreme right wing gun nuts.
Says he can relate to the working class and that wealth has not changed him. Flies around in private jets and was documented to have rented a room in a cheap motel for the press, while really staying at the Ritz Carlton down the street
Says he grew up in Flynt Michigan and thats why he can relate to the poor working class. He really grew up in a town near Flynt, and had a father who worked for one of the big three automakers. His father had enough money to put three kids through college and retire comfortable before 60.
"I've never owned a shred of stock" Was shown to own several stocks including a pretty large stake in HALIBURTON.
Moore is a lier.
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Socialism is a failure everywhere it is tried.
Why are you bringing up socialism? Who said anything about it?
Do you support Corporatism at its strongest, blotting out small businesses with no regulation?
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Do you know that Michael Moore is a lying fraud? He may not have gotten facts wrong in his movies, but he lies all the time.
Examples of his lies and hypocritical nature:
Paraphrasing - Says guns are a product of unrealistic, insecure people. Surrounds himself with heavily armed bodyguards in fear of being attacked by extreme right wing gun nuts.
Says he can relate to the working class and that wealth has not changed him. Flies around in private jets and was documented to have rented a room in a cheap motel for the press, while really staying in the Ritz Carlton down the street
Says he grew up in Flynt Michigan and thats why he can relate to the poor working class. He really grew up in a town near Flynt, and had a father who worked for one of the big three automakers. His father had enough money to put three kids through college and retire comfortable before 60.
"I've never owned a shred of stock" Was shown to own several stocks including a pretty large stake in HALIBURTON.
Moore is a lier.
Source please. You just made all of that up. Please provide the evidence.
By the way, Michael Moore is a member of the NRA and is a gun owner and supports gun-owners. Obviously you have never seen Bowling for Columbine and if you did, you didn`t come away with the correct meaning.
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Michael Moore's opting to spoof romantic conventions in titling his upcoming documentary "Capitalism: A Love Story," which addresses the causes of the global economic meltdown.
"It will be the perfect date movie," Moore said in an announcement Wednesday. "It's got it all -- lust, passion, romance and 14,000 jobs being eliminated every day. It's a forbidden love, one that dare not speak its name. Heck, let's just say it: It's capitalism."
Moore and Overture Films had announced previously that the film would be released domestically on Oct. 2 -- a year and a day after the U.S. Senate voted to approve a $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Paramount Vantage will handle international distribution.
The film is described as focusing on "the disastrous impact that corporate dominance and out-of-control profit motives have on the lives of Americans and citizens of the world."
Fine TA,
Why dont you share your trust fund with all of us and sell your Lotus, give away the proceeds and buy a mountain bike?
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Fine TA,
Why dont you share your trust fund with all of us and sell your Lotus, give away the proceeds and buy a mountain bike?
Why?
I drive less than 3000 miles a year. My Lotus did get around 28 MPG.
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Source please. You just made all of that up. Please provide the evidence.
By the way, Michael Moore is a member of the NRA and is a gun owner and supports gun-owners. Obviously you have never seen Bowling for Columbine and if you did, you didn`t come away with the correct meaning.
Do as I say, not as I do. - Andrew C McCarthy. Read the book before you call me a lier. It chronicles all Moore's lies since day one.
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So you have no problem with corporatism at its most powerful?
An stupid question like this can only come from someone with a limited understanding of natural selection.
To answer your question; NO, selection pressures (a KEY mechanism in natural selection) must be put in place, i.e. moderation of markets. Corporatism "at its most powerful" isn't even true natural selection at least in the Darwinian sense.
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Why?
I drive less than 3000 miles a year. My Lotus did get around 28 MPG.
Everyone has a profit motive, that is life and reality that you refuse to deal with. There is nothing wrong with it.
Small business people seek profits the same way big businesses do.
The guy at the bar trying to get laid by a hot chick in the bar is seeking an obscene profit at the end of the night.
The woman at the casino playing penny slots is looking for a obscene profit from the slot machine.
The kid gaming his parents for a new bike is seeking an obscene profit.
DO YOU GET THE POINT YET?
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An stupid question like this can only come from someone with a limited understanding of natural selection.
To answer your question; NO, selection pressures (a KEY mechanism in natural selection) must be put in place, i.e. moderation of markets. Corporatism "at its most powerful" isn't even true natural selection at least in the Darwinian sense.
Uh, I guess you kind of forgot how the south was built, who owned the farms and the slaves, how the railroads were built, who owned the railroads, how oil land was seized even through private armies with the cooperation of the US Government and by whom.
You need to have a sense of historicity which it appears that you do not. Furthermore, don`t ever again compare Darwinian evolution with capitalism.
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Uh, I guess you kind of forgot how the south was built, who owned the farms and the slaves, how the railroads were built, who owned the railroads, how oil land was seized even through private armies with the cooperation of the US Government and by whom.
You need to have a sense of historicity which it appears that you do not. Furthermore, don`t ever again compare Darwinian evolution with capitalism.
Source please. You just made all of that up. Please provide the evidence.
By the way, Michael Moore is a member of the NRA and is a gun owner and supports gun-owners. Obviously you have never seen Bowling for Columbine and if you did, you didn`t come away with the correct meaning.
Do as I say, not as I do. - Andrew C McCarthy. Read the book before you call me a lier. It chronicles all Moore's lies since day one.
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Do as I say, not as I do. - Andrew C McCarthy. Read the book before you call me a lier. It chronicles all Moore's lies since day one.
Uh, Andrew C. MCCarthy seems to only have written one book and its called Willful Blindness.
http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/author/mccarthya/
I can`t find a link or any info whatsoever about any "book" about Moore.
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Again, where is the evidence? Can you find me something right now that I can look at that backs up your claims?
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Something tells me you didn`t read any book. Andrew C. McCarthy never wrote a book about Michael Moore.
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Uh, I guess you kind of forgot how the south was built, who owned the farms and the slaves, how the railroads were built, who owned the railroads, how oil land was seized even through private armies with the cooperation of the US Government and by whom.
You need to have a sense of historicity which it appears that you do not. Furthermore, don`t ever again compare Darwinian evolution with capitalism.
What are you talking about, and please reference what your assertions are a reply to because I don't know where you got this from unless of course you're simply only trying to sound intelligent?
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Saying he has never lied in any of his movies is incorrect. There have been plenty of facts that were way off in "Bowling for Columbine", which, frankly, is the only one I bothered to see.
It isn't that he lies, it's in the way he chooses which information is presented, how it is presented and which information is not presented. Is documentaries aren't really documentaries they are simply selective information that he presents to the audience from his point of view.
He certainly doesn't lay out all the facts impartially, that's for sure.
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To say he has NEVER spread mis-information is quite stupid and setting yourself up for disaster.
I think Adonis say's this because who can really be arsed proving him wrong? (he probably realises this...)
Adonis made the assertion, so Adonis, list every "fact" Moore has stated and prove he didn't lie.
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Saying he has never lied in any of his movies is incorrect. There have been plenty of facts that were way off in "Bowling for Columbine", which, frankly, is the only one I bothered to see.
It isn't that he lies, it's in the way he chooses which information is presented, how it is presented and which information is not presented. Is documentaries aren't really documentaries they are simply selective information that he presents to the audience from his point of view.
He certainly doesn't lay out all the facts impartially, that's for sure.
What dreamers like TA refuse to understand is that while capitilism is not perfect and has it flaws, it still produces far greater wealth and progress than all the others.
A "poor" person in the USA is still more often than not better off than a "poor" person in a socialistic country.
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I'm the biggest proponent of natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government
Again, lets review the history of American Capitalism. At its strongest, capitalism comprised of Slave Labor and/or concentrated power in the hands of a few with corporate dominance and no rights for workers. Given the influx of Irish, German and Italian immigrants, it was easier to work them to death, pay them nothing or literally pay them nothing and then rehire fresh off the boat.
This is capitalism in applying "natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government" as you put it.
Do you support this? If not, why? Would you care to amend your above statement?
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To say he has NEVER spread mis-information is quite stupid and setting yourself up for disaster.
I think Adonis say's this because who can really be arsed proving him wrong? (he probably realises this...)
Adonis made the assertion, so Adonis, list every "fact" Moore has stated and prove he didn't lie.
I didn`t make an accusation or assertion, you guys did.
Again, you say he he is lying or spreading mis-information than surely you must be able to point to something or else YOU MADE THE WHOLE THING UP.
You can`t just go around making statements based on zero facts and THINK they are true.
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What dreamers like TA refuse to understand is that while capitilism is not perfect and has it flaws, it still produces far greater wealth and progress than all the others.
A "poor" person in the USA is still more often than not better off than a "poor" person in a socialistic country.
I support Democratic Socialism which is a Socialist-Capitalistic hybrid as all forms of Socialism exist. Similar to what we have now, but with more power concentrated to the people. Think Norway.
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Again, lets review the history of American Capitalism. At its strongest, capitalism comprised of Slave Labor and/or concentrated power in the hands of a few with corporate dominance and no rights for workers. Given the influx of Irish, German and Italian immigrants, it was easier to work them to death, pay them nothing or literally pay them nothing and then rehire fresh off the boat.
This is capitalism in applying "natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government" as you put it.
Do you support this? If not, why? Would you care to amend your above statement?
You are a jackass, a real jackass.
My ancestors came from Italy and worked their butts off for low pay. However, their drive to succeed, their "obscene profit motive", resulted in a lot of prosperity for my family. My ancestors were poor, my parents middle class, and so on.
I am glad that they never joined unions, adopted socialistic garbage, and worked as they did. In fact, they fled Europe for the very same reasons that you wish to impose on this country now.
No thanks.
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Something tells me you didn`t read any book. Andrew C. McCarthy never wrote a book about Michael Moore.
Excuse me, it was written by Peter Schweizer. You see, I'm at work and I don't have access to my books. Anyway, I read it a few years ago and everything I stated (plus more) is in that book. It's all sourced, which makes it even more funny. Moore = lier.
http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not-Hypocrisy/dp/0385513496
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You are a jackass, a real jackass.
My ancestors came from Italy and worked their butts off for low pay. However, their drive to succeed, their "obscene profit motive", resulted in a lot of prosperity for my family. My ancestors were poor, my parents middle class, and so on.
I am glad that they never joined unions, adopted socialistic garbage, and worked as they did. In fact, they fled Europe for the very same reasons that you wish to impose on this country now.
No thanks.
Your family worked for pennies for years and the only reason why they climbed in wealth is by having workers rights.
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Again, lets review the history of American Capitalism. At its strongest, capitalism comprised of Slave Labor and/or concentrated power in the hands of a few with corporate dominance and no rights for workers. Given the influx of Irish, German and Italian immigrants, it was easier to work them to death, pay them nothing or literally pay them nothing and then rehire fresh off the boat.
This is capitalism in applying "natural selection in regards to applying it to economics and government" as you put it.
Do you support this? If not, why? Would you care to amend your above statement?
So you're specifically talking about early American capitalism? I don't understand what you're getting at. I proposed capitalism should (note I'm proposing something for the FUTURE and not PAST or PRESENT) incorporate natural selection and you jump to this mundane and unsubstantiated claims?
No it isn't I CLEARLY stated selection pressures MUST be in place.
I didn`t make an accusation or assertion, you guys did.
Again, you say he he is lying or spreading mis-information than surely you must be able to point to something or else YOU MADE THE WHOLE THING UP.
You can`t just go around making statements based on zero facts and THINK they are true.
Where did I personally make anything up? Please, just give an EXAMPLE.
The premise of my argument that for him to state only FACTS (and always as you confidently put) is highly unlikely.
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Your family worked for pennies for years and the only reason why they climbed in wealth is by having workers rights.
Wrong fool. They worked in non-unionized small businesses and saved their $$$$. With no education, they formed small businesses and progressed.
You really are a marxist if you believe in the validity of the class struggle b.s. you are taught in college.
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Newspaper upset with Michael Moore
Says director created a doctored front page for ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’
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updated 7:02 p.m. CT, Sun., Aug 1, 2004
- Filmmaker Michael Moore’s Bush-basing documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11” has apparently upset more than Republicans.
The Pantagraph newspaper in Bloomington said Friday it sent a letter to Moore and the film’s distributor, Lions Gate Entertainment Corp., asking for an apology for using what it said was a doctored front page in his movie.
The paper is seeking $1 in damages.
A scene early in the movie shows newspaper headlines related to the contested 2000 presidential election. It includes a shot of The Pantagraph’s Dec. 19, 2001, front page, with the prominent headline, “Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election.”
The newspaper says that headline never appeared on that day.
The paper said the headline appeared in a Dec. 5, 2001, edition but was not used on the front page. Instead, it was found in much smaller type above a letter to the editor, which the paper says reflects “only the opinions of the letter writer.”
“If (Moore) wants to ‘edit’ The Pantagraph, he should apply for a copy-editing job,” the paper said.
Neither Lions Gate nor Moore were immediately available for comment Sunday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5575561/
Bowling for Headlines: How Fictitious is Michael Moore's 'Fahrenheit 9/11'?
Shoots from the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii - Aug. 10, 2004
By Stuart K. Hayashi, 8/10/2004 12:03:36 AM
Stuart Hayashi
Filmmaker Michael Moore first gained renown with his 1989 documentary "Roger & Me." It focuses on General Motors closing its Flint, Michigan, plants to cut costs. Decrying this as cruelty, Moore videotapes himself following G.M.'s then-CEO Roger Smith around, trying to interview him about the layoffs. Smith only evades him.
But now Moore is the powerful multimillionaire corporate fat-cat who hates being confronted over his own company's shadiness, and I'm the young rebel who questions his business's conduct.
A Friday, July 30 Associated Press story says that the "Bloomington, IL, Pantagraph" newspaper accuses Moore's latest movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11," of taking a Letter to the Editor from its December 5, 2001 edition, and then showing a doctored version of it in the documentary's pre-title sequence.
The film version changes the date to Dec. 19, 2001, alters the typesetting, and blows up the letter's title -- "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election" -- so that it now looks like a straight news article reflecting the paper's official position.
Naturally, the "article" was shown when Moore's voice-over narration asserted Al Gore definitely received more Florida votes than Bush in the 2000 election.
Consequently, the Pantagraph demands an apology and explanation from Moore, and it's seeking damages of . . . $1. It's the principle that counts.
The Pantagraph probably would've taken such actions even if I never got involved in this controversy. However, I *DID* help get the photographic evidence of the Pantagraph's claims onto the Internet.
In his July 23, 2004 column at http://tinyurl.com/6a24q "Pantagraph" columnist Bill Flick first broke the news of the headline enlargement. His column included MooreWatch.com writer Jim Kenefick's screenshot of the letter as it appeared in the film, but no picture of the authentic Dec. 5 version.
I emailed Flick and asked him if the Pantagraph could place a picture of the original "Gore won" letter onto its website. So he put me into contact with a Bloomington librarian who had a copy of the original letter's page on microfilm.
After we exchanged emails, the librarian agreed to my suggestion that she fax a photograph of the original letter to MooreWatch.com.
So on Monday, July 26, MooreWatch posted http://tinyurl.com/5tspp to show photographs of both the real letter and the altered cinematic incarnation.
The URL I just provided is more important than anything else I've written here, because it shows if the Pantagraph is correct or not.
Thanks to these pictures, you don't have to take anyone's word for it. See for yourself.
To see a larger image of the real letter at that URL, click on it. A second window will open, wherein you can further magnify the image.
MooreWatch.com received the faxed image in three parts, so it had to assemble them into one piece with Adobe Photoshop. It also highlighted the letter in yellow. Other than that, MooreWatch made no changes to the image of the real page.
I don't know for a fact if Moore himself was aware that an altered headline appeared in "Fahrenheit 9/11" or if this implies something about the veracity of the documentary's other theses. I only know that the version from Moore's masterpiece looks nothing like the actual one.
And I believe Moore owes an honest explanation to everyone who's seen his opus.
As a result of my helping MooreWatch expose the discrepancy, Jason Clarke, a coauthor of the New York Times bestseller "Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man," invited me to write about this incident on his famous website http://www.moorelies.com -- a site mentioned in the July 9 "Entertainment Weekly."
http://tinyurl.com/64jjw displays my MooreLies post.
The aforementioned "Entertainment Weekly" issue contained an interview with Moore in which he says that he "hired the former chief counsel and head of fact-checking at The New Yorker and then she brought in some fact-checkers" to verify "Fahrenheit 9/11"'s accuracy.
Moore then states, "I said tear the movie apart and find something wrong with it."
I wouldn't have known of this strangeness myself if it weren't for MooreWatch's coverage of it, but perhaps Moore's fact-checkers didn't do their job well enough.
"I don't get sued," Moore also said, "because my facts are correct."
Whoops!
Moore famously declared in his 2003 Oscar speech, "We live in the time where we have fictitious election results that elects a fictitious president."
Ironically, "Fahrenheit 9/11" supports that accusation with a seemingly fictitious document.
Figure 1: The version that appears in "Fahrenheit 9/11"
Caption: Note that it says "The Pantagraph" in the upper left-hand corner and the date is double-digit. Magnified, it looks like Wednesday, December 19, 2001 (see http://tinyurl.com/6a24q for a larger view of the date).
Figure 2: The actual "Pantagraph" page on which the letter to the editor, "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election," was printed
Caption: MooreWatch.Com highlighted the real letter in yellow. Go to http://tinyurl.com/4vco9 for a larger, clearer view of it. In the upper left-hand corner, it says "The Pantagraph" and then "Wednesday, December 5, 2001." Note that the date is clearly single-digit.
Stuart K. Hayashi is Policy Analyst at the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii. Hayashi is the founder of a news Web log, "The Fiftieth Star," at: http://50thstar.blogspot.com to be unofficially centered around activities at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. His older editorials can be seen at: http://reason_club.tripod.com/stuart_editorials.html and he can be reached at: mailto:radical_individualist@hotmail.com
Links pertinent to this story (I have tried to keep this in chronological order, with the earliest stories at the top):
A screenshot of the "Bloomington Pantagraph" letter in question, as it appears in "Fahrenheit 9/11" (this photo was not taken by anyone who blogged for MooreWatch.com) http://tinyurl.com/47md2
Bill Flick of the "Bloomington Pantagraph" reveals the nature of how the headline was distorted (includes MooreWatch's screenshot of the film version of the letter) -- Friday, July 23, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/6a24q
The photograph evidence of the headline being doctored for "Fahrenheit 9/11" -- Monday, July 26, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/5tspp
A larger picture of the real Letter to the Editor -- Monday, July 26, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/4vco9
The "Bloomington Pantagraph" announces that it is seeking legal action -- Friday, July 30, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/4j23k
The Associated Press story -- Friday, July 30, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3wukr (This appeared in the Monday, August 2, 2004 edition of the Honolulu Advertiser on page A4, under the heading "Fraud Alleged in 'Fahrenheit 9/11.'"
My post on this subject on a New York Times bestselling author's website -- Friday, July 30, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/64jjw
Other charges made against Michael Moore's films (this is no longer in chronological order):
The Corpse Confession; http://tinyurl.com/6qxnp
Bush looking dumb as he says, "Now watch this drive!" on the golf course; http://tinyurl.com/3mtl5
How "Bowling for Columbine" spliced two old political campaign ads together to look like one, and then added its own caption without telling the viewer; http://tinyurl.com/484ez
Was Michael Moore's confrontation with Charlton Heston staged?; http://tinyurl.com/58spe (see the RealPlayer clip of the film to confirm the charge that the author of that web article is making); http://tinyurl.com/3v3et
The misleading editing of Charlton Heston's NRA speeches; http://tinyurl.com/3he7e
The staged bank scene from "Bowling for Columbine"; http://tinyurl.com/28s67
The fudging of the chronology of events in "Roger & Me"; http://tinyurl.com/4yoqp (the late Pauline Kael took Moore at his word when he said he's from the working-class Flint, Michigan; evidence suggests grew up in the upper-middle-class suburb near Flint: Davison, Michigan); http://tinyurl.com/57yjg
The shocking secret about the central plot premise of "Roger & Me"; http://tinyurl.com/4sz6g ; http://tinyurl.com/664ss
Attorney and New York Times bestselling author David T. Hardy's comprehensive refutation of "Bowling for Columbine"; http://tinyurl.com/81ku
Other links:
Michael Moore's home page; http://www.michaelmoore.com
Helpful resources for keeping track of information about Moore and the validity of his films; http://www.moorelies.com ; http://www.moorewatch.com ; http://www.bowlingfortruth.com
"Fifty-Nine Deceits in 'Fahrenheit 9/11'" by David B. Kopel; http://tinyurl.com/28hjy
Michael Moore's 2003 Oscar speech; http://tinyurl.com/4muxg
An upcoming documentary that counters Michael Moore's propaganda; http://tinyurl.com/6uqms
This editorial is intended to provoke thought, discussion and an examination of issues. It does not reflect official policy of the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii. See the GRIH Web site at: http://www.grassrootinstitute.org/
HawaiiReporter.com reports the real news, and prints all editorials submitted, even if they do not represent the viewpoint of the editors, as long as they are written clearly. Send editorials to mailto:Malia@HawaiiReporter.com
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So you're specifically talking about early American capitalism? I don't understand what you're getting at. I proposed capitalism should (note I'm proposing something for the FUTURE and not PAST or PRESENT) incorporate natural selection and you jump to this mundane and unsubstantiated claims?
No it isn't I CLEARLY stated selection pressures MUST be in place.
Where did I personally make anything up? Please, just give an EXAMPLE.
The premise of my argument that for him to state only FACTS (and always as you confidently put) is highly unlikely.
How much "Natural Selection"? Again, do you want to harken back to the robber-baron age or the capitalistic slave days? Where do YOU draw the line with your "Natural Selection". You surely don`t support unabashed capitalism in its purest form. Do you?
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How much "Natural Selection"? Again, do you want to harken back to the robber-baron age or the capitalistic slave days? Where do YOU draw the line with your "Natural Selection". You surely don`t support unabashed capitalism in its purest form. Do you?
Go read Harry Hazlitt's book "Economics in one Lesson"
TA - you are really clueless. Seriously, you need to get out of that romper room college you work at and educate yourself because you really have no idea about how economics works.
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Newspaper upset with Michael Moore
Says director created a doctored front page for ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’
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updated 7:02 p.m. CT, Sun., Aug 1, 2004
- Filmmaker Michael Moore’s Bush-basing documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11” has apparently upset more than Republicans.
The Pantagraph newspaper in Bloomington said Friday it sent a letter to Moore and the film’s distributor, Lions Gate Entertainment Corp., asking for an apology for using what it said was a doctored front page in his movie.
The paper is seeking $1 in damages.
A scene early in the movie shows newspaper headlines related to the contested 2000 presidential election. It includes a shot of The Pantagraph’s Dec. 19, 2001, front page, with the prominent headline, “Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election.”
The newspaper says that headline never appeared on that day.
The paper said the headline appeared in a Dec. 5, 2001, edition but was not used on the front page. Instead, it was found in much smaller type above a letter to the editor, which the paper says reflects “only the opinions of the letter writer.”
“If (Moore) wants to ‘edit’ The Pantagraph, he should apply for a copy-editing job,” the paper said.
Neither Lions Gate nor Moore were immediately available for comment Sunday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5575561/
Bowling for Headlines: How Fictitious is Michael Moore's 'Fahrenheit 9/11'?
Shoots from the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii - Aug. 10, 2004
By Stuart K. Hayashi, 8/10/2004 12:03:36 AM
Stuart Hayashi
Filmmaker Michael Moore first gained renown with his 1989 documentary "Roger & Me." It focuses on General Motors closing its Flint, Michigan, plants to cut costs. Decrying this as cruelty, Moore videotapes himself following G.M.'s then-CEO Roger Smith around, trying to interview him about the layoffs. Smith only evades him.
But now Moore is the powerful multimillionaire corporate fat-cat who hates being confronted over his own company's shadiness, and I'm the young rebel who questions his business's conduct.
A Friday, July 30 Associated Press story says that the "Bloomington, IL, Pantagraph" newspaper accuses Moore's latest movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11," of taking a Letter to the Editor from its December 5, 2001 edition, and then showing a doctored version of it in the documentary's pre-title sequence.
The film version changes the date to Dec. 19, 2001, alters the typesetting, and blows up the letter's title -- "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election" -- so that it now looks like a straight news article reflecting the paper's official position.
Naturally, the "article" was shown when Moore's voice-over narration asserted Al Gore definitely received more Florida votes than Bush in the 2000 election.
Consequently, the Pantagraph demands an apology and explanation from Moore, and it's seeking damages of . . . $1. It's the principle that counts.
The Pantagraph probably would've taken such actions even if I never got involved in this controversy. However, I *DID* help get the photographic evidence of the Pantagraph's claims onto the Internet.
In his July 23, 2004 column at http://tinyurl.com/6a24q "Pantagraph" columnist Bill Flick first broke the news of the headline enlargement. His column included MooreWatch.com writer Jim Kenefick's screenshot of the letter as it appeared in the film, but no picture of the authentic Dec. 5 version.
I emailed Flick and asked him if the Pantagraph could place a picture of the original "Gore won" letter onto its website. So he put me into contact with a Bloomington librarian who had a copy of the original letter's page on microfilm.
After we exchanged emails, the librarian agreed to my suggestion that she fax a photograph of the original letter to MooreWatch.com.
So on Monday, July 26, MooreWatch posted http://tinyurl.com/5tspp to show photographs of both the real letter and the altered cinematic incarnation.
The URL I just provided is more important than anything else I've written here, because it shows if the Pantagraph is correct or not.
Thanks to these pictures, you don't have to take anyone's word for it. See for yourself.
To see a larger image of the real letter at that URL, click on it. A second window will open, wherein you can further magnify the image.
MooreWatch.com received the faxed image in three parts, so it had to assemble them into one piece with Adobe Photoshop. It also highlighted the letter in yellow. Other than that, MooreWatch made no changes to the image of the real page.
I don't know for a fact if Moore himself was aware that an altered headline appeared in "Fahrenheit 9/11" or if this implies something about the veracity of the documentary's other theses. I only know that the version from Moore's masterpiece looks nothing like the actual one.
And I believe Moore owes an honest explanation to everyone who's seen his opus.
As a result of my helping MooreWatch expose the discrepancy, Jason Clarke, a coauthor of the New York Times bestseller "Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man," invited me to write about this incident on his famous website http://www.moorelies.com -- a site mentioned in the July 9 "Entertainment Weekly."
http://tinyurl.com/64jjw displays my MooreLies post.
The aforementioned "Entertainment Weekly" issue contained an interview with Moore in which he says that he "hired the former chief counsel and head of fact-checking at The New Yorker and then she brought in some fact-checkers" to verify "Fahrenheit 9/11"'s accuracy.
Moore then states, "I said tear the movie apart and find something wrong with it."
I wouldn't have known of this strangeness myself if it weren't for MooreWatch's coverage of it, but perhaps Moore's fact-checkers didn't do their job well enough.
"I don't get sued," Moore also said, "because my facts are correct."
Whoops!
Moore famously declared in his 2003 Oscar speech, "We live in the time where we have fictitious election results that elects a fictitious president."
Ironically, "Fahrenheit 9/11" supports that accusation with a seemingly fictitious document.
Figure 1: The version that appears in "Fahrenheit 9/11"
Caption: Note that it says "The Pantagraph" in the upper left-hand corner and the date is double-digit. Magnified, it looks like Wednesday, December 19, 2001 (see http://tinyurl.com/6a24q for a larger view of the date).
Figure 2: The actual "Pantagraph" page on which the letter to the editor, "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election," was printed
Caption: MooreWatch.Com highlighted the real letter in yellow. Go to http://tinyurl.com/4vco9 for a larger, clearer view of it. In the upper left-hand corner, it says "The Pantagraph" and then "Wednesday, December 5, 2001." Note that the date is clearly single-digit.
Stuart K. Hayashi is Policy Analyst at the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii. Hayashi is the founder of a news Web log, "The Fiftieth Star," at: http://50thstar.blogspot.com to be unofficially centered around activities at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. His older editorials can be seen at: http://reason_club.tripod.com/stuart_editorials.html and he can be reached at: mailto:radical_individualist@hotmail.com
Links pertinent to this story (I have tried to keep this in chronological order, with the earliest stories at the top):
A screenshot of the "Bloomington Pantagraph" letter in question, as it appears in "Fahrenheit 9/11" (this photo was not taken by anyone who blogged for MooreWatch.com) http://tinyurl.com/47md2
Bill Flick of the "Bloomington Pantagraph" reveals the nature of how the headline was distorted (includes MooreWatch's screenshot of the film version of the letter) -- Friday, July 23, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/6a24q
The photograph evidence of the headline being doctored for "Fahrenheit 9/11" -- Monday, July 26, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/5tspp
A larger picture of the real Letter to the Editor -- Monday, July 26, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/4vco9
The "Bloomington Pantagraph" announces that it is seeking legal action -- Friday, July 30, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/4j23k
The Associated Press story -- Friday, July 30, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3wukr (This appeared in the Monday, August 2, 2004 edition of the Honolulu Advertiser on page A4, under the heading "Fraud Alleged in 'Fahrenheit 9/11.'"
My post on this subject on a New York Times bestselling author's website -- Friday, July 30, 2004 http://tinyurl.com/64jjw
Other charges made against Michael Moore's films (this is no longer in chronological order):
The Corpse Confession; http://tinyurl.com/6qxnp
Bush looking dumb as he says, "Now watch this drive!" on the golf course; http://tinyurl.com/3mtl5
How "Bowling for Columbine" spliced two old political campaign ads together to look like one, and then added its own caption without telling the viewer; http://tinyurl.com/484ez
Was Michael Moore's confrontation with Charlton Heston staged?; http://tinyurl.com/58spe (see the RealPlayer clip of the film to confirm the charge that the author of that web article is making); http://tinyurl.com/3v3et
The misleading editing of Charlton Heston's NRA speeches; http://tinyurl.com/3he7e
The staged bank scene from "Bowling for Columbine"; http://tinyurl.com/28s67
The fudging of the chronology of events in "Roger & Me"; http://tinyurl.com/4yoqp (the late Pauline Kael took Moore at his word when he said he's from the working-class Flint, Michigan; evidence suggests grew up in the upper-middle-class suburb near Flint: Davison, Michigan); http://tinyurl.com/57yjg
The shocking secret about the central plot premise of "Roger & Me"; http://tinyurl.com/4sz6g ; http://tinyurl.com/664ss
Attorney and New York Times bestselling author David T. Hardy's comprehensive refutation of "Bowling for Columbine"; http://tinyurl.com/81ku
Other links:
Michael Moore's home page; http://www.michaelmoore.com
Helpful resources for keeping track of information about Moore and the validity of his films; http://www.moorelies.com ; http://www.moorewatch.com ; http://www.bowlingfortruth.com
"Fifty-Nine Deceits in 'Fahrenheit 9/11'" by David B. Kopel; http://tinyurl.com/28hjy
Michael Moore's 2003 Oscar speech; http://tinyurl.com/4muxg
An upcoming documentary that counters Michael Moore's propaganda; http://tinyurl.com/6uqms
This editorial is intended to provoke thought, discussion and an examination of issues. It does not reflect official policy of the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii. See the GRIH Web site at: http://www.grassrootinstitute.org/
HawaiiReporter.com reports the real news, and prints all editorials submitted, even if they do not represent the viewpoint of the editors, as long as they are written clearly. Send editorials to mailto:Malia@HawaiiReporter.com
Care to make a guess as to who lost their "lawsuit" and why?
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Care to make a guess as to who lost their "lawsuit" and why?
you're saying they LOST the lawsuit? is that what you are saying? yes, please inform us.
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Exactly. All he did was bold the Headline. Did you not notice that the headlines read the same thing?
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How much "Natural Selection"? Again, do you want to harken back to the robber-baron age or the capitalistic slave days? Where do YOU draw the line with your "Natural Selection". You surely don`t support unabashed capitalism in its purest form. Do you?
How stupid are you? ???
Do you not read my posts? Prove to me that "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is truly natural selection in progress? I CLEARLY stated there must be selective pressures outside of the individuals (read: corporations) as there is in nature, for the third time, this selection pressure could be moderation of the markets...
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How stupid are you? ???
Do you not read my posts? Prove to me that "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is truly natural selection in progress? I CLEARLY stated there must be selective pressures outside of the individuals (read: corporations) as there is in nature, for the third time, this selection pressure could be moderation of the markets...
Define Natural Selection.
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Define Natural Selection.
Huh? Man, you really are one epic intellectual coward aren't you?
You've got yourself in a corner because of your stupid assertions normally based on assumption. Bravo.
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you're saying they LOST the lawsuit? is that what you are saying? yes, please inform us.
Claims against Moore contrary to 'fair use'
The Pantagraph's assertion (July 30) that Michael Moore committed copyright infringement by reporting on a newspaper headline in his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" is one of the most dubious legal claims ever made.
The doctrine of "fair use" clearly protects Moore's right to tell the public what a headline in The Pantagraph declared.
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Something tells me you didn`t read any book. Andrew C. McCarthy never wrote a book about Michael Moore.
Instead of reading Marx & engle - why not read something that makes sense like this?
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Huh? Man, you really are one epic intellectual coward aren't you?
You've got yourself in a corner because of your stupid assertions normally based on assumption. Bravo.
Again, you asked,
"Prove to me that "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is truly natural selection in progress"
I want you to define what you think "Natural Selection" in capitalism is in order for me to accurately address your question.
You may have a different definition than others and certainly mine. Your definition clearly has NOTHING to do with the biological tenements as that would be silly to transplant Darwin`s work word for word and try to apply it to economics. It wouldn`t fit so nicely. :)
So what is YOUR definition so I can address your question.
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Again, you asked,
"Prove to me that "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is truly natural selection in progress"
I want you to define what you think "Natural Selection" in capitalism is in order for me to accurately address your question.
You may have a different definition than others and certainly mine. Your definition clearly has NOTHING to do with the biological tenements as that would be silly to transplant Darwin`s work word for word and try to apply it to economics. It wouldn`t fit so nicely. :)
So what is YOUR definition so I can address your question.
Given that you made both the assumption of my position and the assertion, in debate it rests on your shoulders to provide the evidence behind your statement.
Describe to me what you think natural selection is and how "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is equal to it as you assume.
You clearly know little about Darwinian natural selection if you find it an unfitting model (all things considered).
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Given that you made both the assumption of my position and the assertion, in debate it rests on your shoulders to provide the evidence behind your statement.
Describe to me what you think natural selection is and how "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is equal to it as you assume.
You clearly know little about Darwinian natural selection if you find it an unfitting model (all things considered).
TA has spent way too much time in the university atmosphere.
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Adonis please post a link that states that newspaper LOST the lawsuit.
Also did you read the articles? Did you read what moore did?
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What I really want to know is, did you get a free bowl of soup with that hair cut TA?
(http://blog.nj.com/parentalguidance/2007/10/small_MoePortrait125.jpg)
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Given that you made both the assumption of my position and the assertion, in debate it rests on your shoulders to provide the evidence behind your statement.
Describe to me what you think natural selection is and how "unabashed capitalism in its purest form" is equal to it as you assume.
You clearly know little about Darwinian natural selection if you find it an unfitting model (all things considered).
1. 1. I simply asked if you supported unabashed capitalism ala Robber Baronies, slavery, expendable workers with no rights. since you wrote " I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government". I did not assume anything.
2. Unabashed capitalism to me is privately controlled and operated trade, industry with means of production being owned and controlled privately where the motive is profit. The "unabashed" part comes from little to no regulation on business practices, no or little workers rights, slavery, violence, concentration of power, gaining and keeping production by force or coercion or intimidation, no protection from monopolies.
3. How does the genotype determine the phenotype in capitalism? What allele frequency is applicable to all means of production? How does Sexual Selection fit into Capitalism? How do you measure speciation in capitalism? Biological Natural Selection has no end goal whatsoever. Does Capitalism also have no end goal? Just some things to think about or answer if you can.
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Adonis please post a link that states that newspaper LOST the lawsuit.
Also did you read the articles? Did you read what moore did?
The "lawsuit" never made it beyond threatening. Michael Moore said, "Bring it on" and knew that he was protected under fair use laws and therefore never violated a Copyright.
The Newspaper ran, with tail tucked between their legs and looked totally stupid for claiming a copyright infringement.
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1. 1. I simply asked if you supported unabashed capitalism ala Robber Baronies, slavery, expendable workers with no rights. since you wrote " I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government". I did not assume anything.
2. Unabashed capitalism to me is privately controlled and operated trade, industry with means of production being owned and controlled privately where the motive is profit. The "unabashed" part comes from little to no regulation on business practices, no or little workers rights, slavery, violence, concentration of power, gaining and keeping production by force or coercion or intimidation, no protection from monopolies.
3. How does the genotype determine the phenotype in capitalism? What allele frequency is applicable to all means of production? How does Sexual Selection fit into Capitalism? How do you measure speciation in capitalism? Biological Natural Selection has no end goal whatsoever. Does Capitalism also have no end goal? Just some things to think about or answer if you can.
Took you a while to google all this and paraphrase someone else's thoughts?
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Took you a while to google all this and paraphrase someone else's thoughts?
Come again?
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Come again?
Took you a while to google all this and paraphrase someone else's thoughts?
Or maybe you had to get a quick trim?
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1. 1. I simply asked if you supported unabashed capitalism ala Robber Baronies, slavery, expendable workers with no rights. since you wrote " I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government". I did not assume anything.
2. Unabashed capitalism to me is privately controlled and operated trade, industry with means of production being owned and controlled privately where the motive is profit. The "unabashed" part comes from little to no regulation on business practices, no or little workers rights, slavery, violence, concentration of power, gaining and keeping production by force or coercion or intimidation, no protection from monopolies.
3. How does the genotype determine the phenotype in capitalism? What allele frequency is applicable to all means of production? How does Sexual Selection fit into Capitalism? How do you measure speciation in capitalism? Biological Natural Selection has no end goal whatsoever. Does Capitalism also have no end goal? Just some things to think about or answer if you can.
1., 2. I'm sick of explaining my stance on these, scroll up, read, take in.
3. Genotype - phenotype relationship; the gene could be applied to many things, human wants and desires from the market, the market reshapes accordingly etc. as it does already. The market becomes a representation of the will of the people.
Sexual selection isn't quite the same, brands could be seen as individuals, some more appealing than others therefore more successful.
What is capitalisms end goal? Natural selection contains the system, keeps it equilibrated; if you're against this economically, stick to boom and bust and bailouts.
The "What allele frequency is applicable to all means of production?" sounds like drivel to me, added for some kind of intellectual effect. If it's not, explain this part further.
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The "lawsuit" never made it beyond threatening. Michael Moore said, "Bring it on" and knew that he was protected under fair use laws and therefore never violated a Copyright.
The Newspaper ran, with tail tucked between their legs and looked totally stupid for claiming a copyright infringement.
So now you're saying no one lost it when before you implied they did.
Adonis im starting to believe you are in fact full of shit a lot of the time just as several people here claim
This is a sad day for boonasty :(
Now being a man of principle as evidenced by your parking ticket issue what do you think of the newspaper filing a one dollar lawsuit on principle which was dropped by them voluntarily~?
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So now you're saying no one lost it when before you implied they did.
Adonis im starting to believe you are in fact full of shit a lot of the time just as several people here claim
This is a sad day for boonasty :(
Now being a man of principle as evidenced by your parking ticket issue what do you think of the newspaper filing a one dollar lawsuit on principle which was dropped by them voluntarily~?
The paper wanted a one million dollar lawsuit not one dollar. They weren`t able to bring a suit since there was no basis for the lawsuit by what they claimed. In short, they never had a case.
Michael Moore wins again. Is this so hard not to comprehend?
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1., 2. I'm sick of explaining my stance on these, scroll up, read, take in.
3. Genotype - phenotype relationship; the gene could be applied to many things, human wants and desires from the market, the market reshapes accordingly etc. as it does already. The market becomes a representation of the will of the people.
Sexual selection isn't quite the same, brands could be seen as individuals, some more appealing than others therefore more successful.
What is capitalisms end goal? Natural selection contains the system, keeps it equilibrated; if you're against this economically, stick to boom and bust and bailouts.
The "What allele frequency is applicable to all means of production?" sounds like drivel to me, added for some kind of intellectual effect. If it's not, explain this part further.
Do you support slavery if it furthers capitalism, which it did in all markets? Slavery works very well to support Capitalism.
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Do you support slavery if it furthers capitalism, which it did in all markets? Slavery works very well to support Capitalism.
What is capitalisms end goal?
I don't support slavery, I support economic equilibrium, a framework based upon what I've proposed in this thread is what I truly believe would be most efficient.
Why do you continue to be an intellectual coward and try to stray off with straw man arguments?
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Do you support slavery if it furthers capitalism, which it did in all markets? Slavery works very well to support Capitalism.
Yeah, those muslims in Africa who sold all the slaves were real captilists.
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Instead of reading Marx & engle - why not read something that makes sense like this?
Excuse me, it was written by Peter Schweizer. You see, I'm at work and I don't have access to my books. Anyway, I read it a few years ago and everything I stated (plus more) is in that book. It's all sourced, which makes it even more funny. Moore = lier.
http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not-Hypocrisy/dp/0385513496
I got the author wrong....I'm trying to work here. Anyway, give this book a read. I doubt Adonis has read it. Moore is a lying shitbag.
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The paper wanted a one million dollar lawsuit not one dollar. They weren`t able to bring a suit since there was no basis for the lawsuit by what they claimed. In short, they never had a case.
Michael Moore wins again. Is this so hard not to comprehend?
Adonis it was ONE DOLLAR not one million. It was a priciple os the thing.
Read the articles again son. One dollar.
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I got the author wrong....I'm trying to work here. Anyway, give this book a read. I doubt Adonis has read it. Moore is a lying shitbag.
Socialists like TA wont read a book like Hazlitt's because it completely destroys their entire belief system.
As far as Moore goes, he is another dreamer with zero clue about economics and who the real culprits are.
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What is capitalisms end goal?
I don't support slavery, I support economic equilibrium, a framework based upon what I've proposed in this thread is what I truly believe would be most efficient.
Why do you continue to be an intellectual coward and try to stray off with straw man arguments?
I asked you to define your "Natural Selection" parameters since you made the statement "I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government".
That statement could easily encompass the permitting of slavery, monopolies, no or few workers rights and allow for coercion, intimidation and violent take overs since it fits perfectly in promoting "natural selection" in capitalism and government to which you are "the biggest proponent" of.
Obviously you are not a 100 percent Capitalist since the above, (which did happen under Capitalism and allowed Capitalism to flourish) you are seemingly against.
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Yeah, those muslims in Africa who sold all the slaves were real captilists.
There is a real misconception about slavery, because of the way it is taught/portrayed it is only black people who were slaves. Maybe if people would actually make an attempt they would find that some of the largest slave owners/traders in the south were themselves black men. But you can't let that get in the way of blaming the white man now can you.
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I asked you to define your "Natural Selection" parameters since you made the statement "I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government".
That statement could easily encompass the permitting of slavery, monopolies, no or few workers rights and allow for coercion, intimidation and violent take overs since it fits perfectly in promoting "natural selection" in capitalism and government to which you are "the biggest proponent" of.
Obviously you are not a 100 percent Capitalist since the above, (which did happen under Capitalism and allowed Capitalism to flourish) you are seemingly against.
And salvery didn't allow oh lets, say monarchies, or scoialists, or communist, or Arab\Muslim theocracies to "flourish"? Slave labor has been used by just about every civilization in the history of man. Don't try to portray slavery as some exclusivly capitalist entity.
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Adonis it was ONE DOLLAR not one million. It was a priciple os the thing.
Read the articles again son. One dollar.
Some of the papers were reporting it as one million back in 2004. Either way, they had no case and Michael Moore was in the right.
This is undeniable.
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There is a real misconception about slavery, because of the way it is taught/portrayed it is only black people who were slaves. Maybe if people would actually make an attempt they would find that some of the largest slave owners/traders in the south were themselves black men. But you can't let that get in the way of blaming the white man now can you.
I actually wrote a paper in American History class on White Slavery in the American Colonies.
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I asked you to define your "Natural Selection" parameters since you made the statement "I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government".
That statement could easily encompass the permitting of slavery, monopolies, no or few workers rights and allow for coercion, intimidation and violent take overs since it fits perfectly in promoting "natural selection" in capitalism and government to which you are "the biggest proponent" of.
Obviously you are not a 100 percent Capitalist since the above, (which did happen under Capitalism and allowed Capitalism to flourish) you are seemingly against.
No, only an idiot would assume I support slavery. I've gone into enough detail here for a 5 year old to understand.
Slavery, monopolies are not the defining features of capitalism nor parts of the sum, it's just that you seem anti-capitalist, extreme pro-socialist plus it gives you an easy position to debate and come out on top if the other party falls into your straw man argument trap.
Your last sentence makes no sense, these things happened and helped capitalism; they also helped dictatorship and medieval tribalism.
I hate to break it to you, socialism as it stand keeps people down in its current form, the welfare system in the EU has helped keep generations of people welfare at the bottom. Given your "logic"; that is a defining factor of socialism simply because it happened under its reign?
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I actually wrote a paper in American History class on White Slavery in the American Colonies.
They were called indentured servants
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And salvery didn't allow oh lets, say monarchies, or scoialists, or communist, or Arab\Muslim theocracies to "flourish"? Slave labor has been used by just about every civilization in the history of man. Don't try to portray slavery as some exclusivly capitalist entity.
Of course Capitalism can`t lay sole claim to slavery, but in the same vein, slavery proved to be equally useful to Capitalism.
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Of course Capitalism can`t lay sole claim to slavery, but in the same vein, slavery proved to be equally useful to Capitalism.
I didnt know the ancient egyptians were capitalists. Thanks TA - you teach me new stuff every day.
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They were called indentured servants
Not entirely.
I recommend this book:
White Cargo: The Forgotten History of Britain's White Slaves in America
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411V1HJB3SL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
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Here is another.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F6DSDVXGL._SS500_.jpg)
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I didnt know the ancient egyptians were capitalists. Thanks TA - you teach me new stuff every day.
You don`t think Slavery had any positive impact upon Capitalism itself?
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You don`t think Slavery had any positive impact upon Capitalism itself?
It had a negative impact on capitilism since the slave labor stunted innovation of tech to do the work more efficiently.
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It had a negative impact on capitilism since the slave labor stunted innovation of tech to do the work more efficiently.
Example of technology please.
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It had a negative impact on capitilism since the slave labor stunted innovation of tech to do the work more efficiently.
Do you know why Lincoln Signed the Emancipation Proclamation and what the goal he envisioned in doing so was?
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Example of technology please.
TA - you are a moron who does not grasp even the most basic concepts of economics.
If the slaveholders had to pay for the labor for the work that was being performed, they would have been under pressure to find more innovative ways to produce the crops and do the jobs that the slaves were doing since slave labor is not productive labor.
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TA - you are a moron who does not grasp even the most basic concepts of economics.
If the slaveholders had to pay for the labor for the work that was being performed, they would have been under pressure to find more innovative ways to produce the crops and do the jobs that the slaves were doing since slave labor is not productive labor.
ROFLMAO,
Slave Labor wasn`t productive? ??? ??? Is this really a claim you want to make?
Your take on History is certainly devoid of facts.
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TA - you are a moron who does not grasp even the most basic concepts of economics.
If the slaveholders had to pay for the labor for the work that was being performed, they would have been under pressure to find more innovative ways to produce the crops and do the jobs that the slaves were doing since slave labor is not productive labor.
Why do you think Slavery flourished as a means of production in an Agrarian based economy or do you claim it did not?
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ROFLMAO,
Slave Labor wasn`t productive? ??? ??? Is this really a claim you want to make?
Your take on History is certainly devoid of facts.
It wasnt productive in the sense that the amount of people being used for the task could have greatly been decreased through technology thast was not produced because the slaveholders had no reason to produce it.
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I asked you to define your "Natural Selection" parameters since you made the statement "I am the biggest proponent of natural selection when it comes to applying it to capitalism and government".
That statement could easily encompass the permitting of slavery, monopolies, no or few workers rights and allow for coercion, intimidation and violent take overs since it fits perfectly in promoting "natural selection" in capitalism and government to which you are "the biggest proponent" of.
Obviously you are not a 100 percent Capitalist since the above, (which did happen under Capitalism and allowed Capitalism to flourish) you are seemingly against.
In regards to you saying that I made up the facts that I stated about Moore earlier in this thread. Have you read the book in question? It looks like all Mr Schweizer's accusations are dead on. Infact, I don't see any refutable claims in his book.
I don't own a single shred of stock - Michael Moore
Most notable Stock owned at the time of this statement:
- Halliburton (5/19/2000)
It's on the back cover of Do As I Say (not as I do), aahaha. Face it Adonis, Moore is a hypocritical piece of shit who lies A LOT.
Quote
Excuse me, it was written by Peter Schweizer. You see, I'm at work and I don't have access to my books. Anyway, I read it a few years ago and everything I stated (plus more) is in that book. It's all sourced, which makes it even more funny. Moore = lier.
http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not-Hypocrisy/dp/0385513496
I got the author wrong....I'm trying to work here. Anyway, give this book a read. I doubt Adonis has read it. Moore is a lying
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Why do you think Slavery flourished as a means of production in an Agrarian based economy or do you claim it did not?
Many of those societies did not have the laws we have. Additionally, if a land owner does not have to pay for labor, sure, its a GREAT DEAL FOR HIM.
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In regards to you saying that I made up the facts that I stated about Moore earlier in this thread. Have you read the book in question? It looks like all Mr Schweizer's accusations are dead on. Infact, I don't see any refutable claims in his book.
I don't own a single shred of stock - Michael Moore
Most notable Stock owned at the time of this statement:
- Halliburton (5/19/2000)
It's on the back cover of Do As I Say (not as I do), aahaha. Face it Adonis, Moore is a hypocritical piece of shit who lies A LOT.
I can`t find a single proof of any of his claims. Can you link me?
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I can`t find a single proof of any of his claims. Can you link me?
Ill give it a shot, later. I have the book in front of me now. Do As I Say (not as I do) by Peter Schweizer.
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In regards to you saying that I made up the facts that I stated about Moore earlier in this thread. Have you read the book in question? It looks like all Mr Schweizer's accusations are dead on. Infact, I don't see any refutable claims in his book.
I don't own a single shred of stock - Michael Moore
Most notable Stock owned at the time of this statement:
- Halliburton (5/19/2000)
It's on the back cover of Do As I Say (not as I do), aahaha. Face it Adonis, Moore is a hypocritical piece of shit who lies A LOT.
How does this change the facts in the movie?
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That wasn't my argument....I originally stated that more was a hypocrite and a lier. I gave several examples of this, and you told me I was making it all up.
Liar about what?
I still am not seeing it.
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Why do you think Slavery flourished as a means of production in an Agrarian based economy or do you claim it did not?
I kind of agree with you on this one. Slaves were a means to an end. I believe that, although inefficient, the slaves got the job done, were readily available and could be had for cheap. After a while when demand and competition increased, technology would have completely eliminated the need for them. By 'inefficient' I mean that you have to cloth, house, feed and care for them. Although I would be willing to bet that this was, at most, a small % of the take from a solid harvest.
See: The Cotton Gin.
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I kind of agree with you on this one. Slaves were a means to an end. I believe that, although inefficient, the slaves got the job done, were readily available and could be had for cheap. After a while when demand and competition increased, technology would have completely eliminated the need for them. By 'inefficient' I mean that you have to cloth, house, feed and care for them. Although I would be willing to bet that this was, at most, a small % of the take from a solid harvest.
See: The Cotton Gin.
That was my point. If the owners had to pay for the labor, the tech would have advanced much sooner thereby doing away with the need for the slaves and slavery.
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Some of the papers were reporting it as one million back in 2004. Either way, they had no case and Michael Moore was in the right.
This is undeniable.
can you post some of these links?
you think Moore was in the right for intentionally doctoring the paper and using it in his film? what happened to your principles son?
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I kind of agree with you on this one. Slaves were a means to an end. I believe that, although inefficient, the slaves got the job done, were readily available and could be had for cheap. After a while when demand and competition increased, technology would have completely eliminated the need for them. By 'inefficient' I mean that you have to cloth, house, feed and care for them. Although I would be willing to bet that this was, at most, a small % of the take from a solid harvest.
See: The Cotton Gin.
The Cotton Gin really didn`t affect the height of slavery since it was invented in 1793, well before slavery`s peak in the United States.
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can you post some of these links?
you think Moore was in the right for intentionally doctoring the paper and using it in his film? what happened to your principles son?
Yes, bolding an existing headline is a travesty. ::)
Links to what? That there never was a lawsuit or are you operating under the premise that there was a lawsuit?
Type in: Fair Use Michael Moore Pantagraph
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Links to what?
links to back up this statement:
Some of the papers were reporting it as one million back in 2004.
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Yes, bolding an existing headline is a travesty. ::)
A Friday, July 30 Associated Press story says that the "Bloomington, IL, Pantagraph" newspaper accuses Moore's latest movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11," of taking a Letter to the Editor from its December 5, 2001 edition, and then showing a doctored version of it in the documentary's pre-title sequence.
The film version changes the date to Dec. 19, 2001, alters the typesetting, and blows up the letter's title -- "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election" -- so that it now looks like a straight news article reflecting the paper's official position.
Naturally, the "article" was shown when Moore's voice-over narration asserted Al Gore definitely received more Florida votes than Bush in the 2000 election.
Consequently, the Pantagraph demands an apology and explanation from Moore, and it's seeking damages of . . . $1. It's the principle that counts.
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links to back up this statement:
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=41656
The Bloomington (Ill.) Pantagraph is apparently upset over film maker Michael Moore's use of their newspaper for the movie Farenheit 9/11. The newspaper is seeking compensatory damages of $1 million dollars against Moore and Lions Gate Entertainment.
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he changed the date, took a title of a letter to the editor, not a news headline of the paper, and doctored it to make it look like a news story.
and "the "article" was shown when Moore's voice-over narration asserted Al Gore definitely received more Florida votes than Bush in the 2000 election".
you don't see this as shady behavior?
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he changed the date, took a title of a letter to the editor, not a news headline of the paper, and doctored it to make it look like a news story.
and "the "article" was shown when Moore's voice-over narration asserted Al Gore definitely received more Florida votes than Bush in the 2000 election".
you don't see this as shady behavior?
I don`t see how it could be. Have you actually watched the Scene? It is somewhat lighthearted and that was the point. I will post the scene. The problem I notice is that Irony, Sarcasm and witticisms are lost on Republican minded folks.
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http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=41656
The Bloomington (Ill.) Pantagraph is apparently upset over film maker Michael Moore's use of their newspaper for the movie Farenheit 9/11. The newspaper is seeking compensatory damages of $1 million dollars against Moore and Lions Gate Entertainment.
link doesn't work
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I don`t see how it could be. Have you actually watched the Scene? It is somewhat lighthearted and that was the point. I will post the scene. The problem I notice is that Irony, Sarcasm and witticisms are lost on Republican minded folks.
yes i've watched the scene and don't remember it being lighthearted, sarcastic or witty and that being the point, as you say.
but i will watch it again when you post
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link doesn't work
It works for me.
Try again.
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yes i've watched the scene and don't remember it being lighthearted, sarcastic or witty and that being the point, as you say.
but i will watch it again when you post
Posted.
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I don`t see a problem at all. The headline is the headline. He didn`t make it up.
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Posted.
just watched it again. no, i don't see it as lighthearted. i still find it very shady.
I don`t see a problem at all. The headline is the headline. He didn`t make it up.
it was a title of a letter to the editor. not a headline. if it were a headline i would be more apt to agree with you.
titles to letters are generally written to describe the content of the letter; it describes the opinion of the letter-writer.
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The Cotton Gin really didn`t affect the height of slavery since it was invented in 1793, well before slavery`s peak in the United States.
Huh, I didn't know it was invented that early. Any reason for it not making a larger impact? Scared of new tech? Not wanting slaves to stop being slaves? It was just easier to have slaves?
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Think about it, in this day and age. New technology=expensive, vs old ways=cheap disposable labor.
That is how the Pyramids got built. Not because Egyptians were capitalists, They believed in Divine right.
That is how the Plantations got their products brought to market. That is how railroads got built, etc, etc
Because the owners were capitialists.
Michael Moore may not think he is a capitalist, his "brand" is a capitalist entity.
Sandra
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Think about it, in this day and age. New technology=expensive, vs old ways=cheap disposable labor.
That is how the Pyramids got built. Not because Egyptians were capitalists, They believed in Divine right.
That is how the Plantations got their products brought to market. That is how railroads got built, etc, etc
Because the owners were capitialists.
Michael Moore may not think he is a capitalist, his "brand" is a capitalist entity.
Sandra
Moore is pro-capitalist.
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Think about it, in this day and age. New technology=expensive, vs old ways=cheap disposable labor.
That is how the Pyramids got built. Not because Egyptians were capitalists, They believed in Divine right.
That is how the Plantations got their products brought to market. That is how railroads got built, etc, etc
Because the owners were capitialists.
Michael Moore may not think he is a capitalist, his "brand" is a capitalist entity.
Sandra
"Think about it, in this day and age. New technology=expensive, vs old ways=cheap disposable labor."
You have it backwards. The cost of labor is VERY EXPENSIVE in the USA and that is what drives technology. Its not just the salaries, its the payroll taxes, sick time, benes, time off, lawsuits, EEOC, workers comp., unemployment insurance, etc.
Check this out.
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Wrong on all accounts. Please explain and show why he is a "propagandist" or where he has intentionally lied on a fact.
Bowling for Columbine.
He questions what the difference is between the USA and Canada in terms of gun crime when the crimes are ENTIRELY racial in nature. If you were to take away the black demographic from the USA, they do NOT have more gun crime than Canada, thus nullifying his entire thesis. Not to mention, Moore had the nerve to bash Charlton Heston for implying exactly that! I guess the truth hurts sometimes.
Read this:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=273610.0
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Whats his problem with Capitalism...it would appeare to be keeping him in cheeseburgers. I mean he must shitcan atleast a half dozen Big Macs a day. Whats more capitalistic then the Golden Arches?
What a fat slob. Remember when he said last year that he hoped a hurricane would disrupt the Republican National Convention? ::)