Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: slaveboy1980 on September 13, 2011, 05:59:02 PM
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i hear you got lots of experience regarding contest prep and training people
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Ask me something specific.
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Why are you an expert? What do you do?
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Ask me something specific.
How big is your cock - no homo
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q1 :How would you set up a training split for someone looking to put on mass?
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q1 :How would you set up a training split for someone looking to put on mass?
Generally work a bodypart once a week. How you divide it up is really up to you. Normally train 4 to 5 times a week.
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Why are you an expert? What do you do?
I recently saw some good posts by disgusted on here so i thought i'd try to extract some knowledge from the guy
live and learn
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Digusted said more than once his training philosophy
for example, while everybody here was saying Vince Taylor trains like a fucking pussy, Jim said VT was probably one of the only guy training right (hence no injuries even after a long career)
I tend to agree
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Generally work a bodypart once a week. How you divide it up is really up to you. Normally train 4 to 5 times a week.
thanks
q2 : what kind of volume per body part? rep range?
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Digusted said more than once his training philosophy
for example, while everybody here was saying Vince Taylor trains like a fucking pussy, Jim said VT was probably one of the only guy training right (hence no injuries even after a long career)
I tend to agree
Yep, I've seen them all and while it looks cool to throw around big weight in the end by the time you are 45 you are a complete mess of injuries. Extreme size comes from hormones anyway so why not enjoy training till you are old.
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How big is your cock - no homo
Good question.
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Digusted said more than once his training philosophy
for example, while everybody here was saying Vince Taylor trains like a fucking pussy, Jim said VT was probably one of the only guy training right (hence no injuries even after a long career)
I tend to agree
ya we need to get some more training talk going on because i could care less about competitive bodybuilding in this day and age.
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thanks
q2 : what kind of volume per body part? rep range?
I like anywhere from 8 to 12 on average, but tend to stay around 12. I love to do high reps on legs on occasion 50 to 100 reps just for fun. I can get by with 10 sets for arms and 12 or slightly more for larger parts. I move pretty quick too. One thing you will notice is that if you rest just even 10 seconds more you are going to be a lot stronger the next set.
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I can't help but overtrain, I am addicted to the pump, I've gone into the gym and told myself I'm only doing some exercises because I hurt myself, by the end I'm going to failure on everything, it's like when ur really drunk with some sloppy woman and you know your erection wont last through a condom, so you just say fuck it and raw dog that filthy sack of desease ridden flesh
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I like anyway from 8 to 12 on average, but tend to stay around 12. I love to do high reps on legs on occasion 50 to 100 reps just for fun. I can get by with 10 sets for arms and 12 or slightly more for larger parts. I move pretty quick too. One thing you will notice is that if you rest just even 10 seconds more you are going to be a lot stronger the next set.
thanks man.
i train that way too these days. no more super heavy and slow....although i cycle heavier periods with lighter periods.
by keeping the rest periods short...you keep the muscle activated....
q3: what do you do for lagging muscle groups? 2x/week?
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I can't help but overtrain, I am addicted to the pump, I've gone into the gym and told myself I'm only doing some exercises because I hurt myself, by the end I'm going to failure on everything, it's like when ur really drunk with some sloppy woman and you know your erection wont last through a condom, so you just say fuck it and raw dog that filthy sack of desease ridden flesh
LOL!!
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thanks man.
i train that way too these days. no more super heavy and slow....although i cycle heavier periods with lighter periods.
by keeping the rest periods short...you keep the muscle activated....
q3: what do you do for lagging muscle groups? 2x/week?
Unfortunately a lagging BP is always going to be that, BUT you can train it more often and this will to a degree help. There are alot of theories out there about improving them like site injections etc but none are really long lasting.
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Unfortunately a lagging BP is always going to be that, BUT you can train it more often and this will to a degree help. There are alot of theories out there about improving them like site injections etc but none are really long lasting.
got it
q4: what is your opinion on supersets and giant sets (for one muscle group)?
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q5: could you give us an example of a shoulder routine? other body parts too...if you have the energy/time that is.
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I live supersets I think giant sets are just a little too much. I think that you tend to run out of breath before you can do any damage to the muscle you are training.
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How big is your cock - no homo
x3
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I live supersets I think giant sets are just a little too much. I think that you tend to run out of breath before you can do any damage to the muscle you are training.
yeah, they can also be kinda difficult to do in a busy gym (giant sets).
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Should reps be kept smooth or do you grind out to failure at the end of a set?
Do you ramp up the weight each set or do multiple sets with the same weight?
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What about training each bodypart twice a week, i feel once a week is not enough.
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I just got a PM. Yes I also train people and I have done alot of reading when it comes to training and nutrition but this thread is about disgusted's thoughts about training (not mine). If someone has been in the game for 30 years..then I'm willing to listen.
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What about training each bodypart twice a week, i feel once a week is not enough.
Whatever works for you brother.
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I can't help but overtrain, I am addicted to the pump, I've gone into the gym and told myself I'm only doing some exercises because I hurt myself, by the end I'm going to failure on everything, it's like when ur really drunk with some sloppy woman and you know your erection wont last through a condom, so you just say fuck it and raw dog that filthy sack of desease ridden flesh
It's just like that bro.
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Yep, I've seen them all and while it looks cool to throw around big weight in the end by the time you are 45 you are a complete mess of injuries. Extreme size comes from hormones anyway so why not enjoy training till you are old.
Yep.
I occasionally have let my ego get the best of me in the past, and tried to see what my max lifts were, It's nonsense.....
It's been a long ass time since i've done less than ten reps in a set, and I never have back pain, knee pain...any of that shit and I'm 46. when i was 36 and squatting 500, my body ached for days after a hard session...fuck that noise.
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Yep.
I occasionally have let my ego get the best of me in the past, and tried to see what my max lifts were, It's nonsense.....
It's been a long ass time since i've done less than ten reps in a set, and I never have back pain, knee pain...any of that shit and I'm 46. when i was 36 and squatting 500, my body ached for days after a hard session...fuck that noise.
yup for example do some high rep leg ext..then some leg presses (none of that 2 inch of ROM crap tho) and then finish off with some 12-15 rep squats.
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yup for example do some high rep leg ext..then some leg presses (none of that 2 inch of ROM crap tho) and then finish off with some 12-15 rep squats.
Squats with 20 reps did much more for my legs than 5 reps.
I usually train in the 8-12 rep range, occasionally even higher, 15-20.
If i go heavy, 6 reps is the minimum, and never longer than 2 weeks.
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Squats with 20 reps did much more for my legs than 5 reps.
I usually train in the 8-12 rep range, occasionally even higher, 15-20.
If i go heavy, 6 reps is the minimum, and never longer than 2 weeks.
pretty much spot on. except I never go as low as 8...ten is the floor, unless I'm just destroyed and i can't get ten ...but never cuz it's too heavy
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Squats with 20 reps did much more for my legs than 5 reps.
I usually train in the 8-12 rep range, occasionally even higher, 15-20.
If i go heavy, 6 reps is the minimum, and never longer than 2 weeks.
ya I'm a very strong squatter but I got much more quad growth from the above combo than starting with heavy squats of 5 (as I used to do). I don't do sets of 20 on squats tho cuz im a pussy.
leg ext 6-8 quick sets 12-25 reps
leg press (sometimes supersetted with leg ext too....to extend the set length)
finish of with squats (high reps)
boom quads exploded with growth
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Did you ever tell King he was training like an idiot?
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pretty much spot on. except I never go as low as 8...ten is the floor, unless I'm just destroyed and i can't get ten ...but never cuz it's too heavy
Do you ever go to failure, or do you just stop when you can't move the weight smoothly anymore?
I wish I could train with some of you guys just to see how you do it. I learned to lift at the university gym which I think is practically the worst place possible. 98% of people there are kids with no clue, and even handful of bigger, older guys seemed to lift way harder, heavier, and grindier than I ever see in pro bb vids.
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What gave me the best leg development so far was the "widowmaker", choose a weight where you can perform 10 good reps and do 20 with it, LOL.
But to be honest, i couldn't keep up with it longer than a few weeks, it burns me out very quickly. Now i only do them when i have an extremly good day, lol.
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Do you ever go to failure, or do you just stop when you can't move the weight smoothly anymore?
I wish I could train with some of you guys just to see how you do it. I learned to lift at the university gym which I think is practically the worst place possible. 98% of people there are kids with no clue, and even handful of bigger, older guys seemed to lift way harder, heavier, and grindier than I ever see in pro bb vids.
I never go to failure on legs, it's just too dangerous, LOL.
I also never go to failure on deads, that's fucking stupid to do IMO.
I do go to failure when i train with machines, and on arms, but not every time.
I feel that you need a good mixture of rep ranges, exercise speed, angles, machines and free wieghts and keep the breaks very short (30-60 seconds), that works best for me.
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Do you ever go to failure, or do you just stop when you can't move the weight smoothly anymore?
I wish I could train with some of you guys just to see how you do it. I learned to lift at the university gym which I think is practically the worst place possible. 98% of people there are kids with no clue, and even handful of bigger, older guys seemed to lift way harder, heavier, and grindier than I ever see in pro bb vids.
avoid failure on most set---specially very grindy sets to failure. it can be ok to push some sets to failure ..how many...will vary between people. some people have very sensitive CNS others can take alot of pounding.
but you shouldn't feel totally fucked up after a work out ..instead you should feel energized.
edit: and yeah on legs...you don't wanna go to failure on leg presses or squats...leave a rep or two in the tank. leg ext can be ok...but not every set.
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I would always crave that ripping sensation you get when you have a massive pump and feel like each rep is just shredding the muscle to bits. I guess if I could go back and do things differently I would have just settled for a good pump most of the time?
Many times after working up a pump I would just keep doing sets and all of a sudden the muscle would just lose all sensation... but I had to keep going because I had to do 4 sets of 10, and then 4 more sets for the next exercise, etc. ::)
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I would always crave that ripping sensation you get when you have a massive pump and feel like each rep is just shredding the muscle to bits. I guess if I could go back and do things differently I would have just settled for a good pump most of the time?
Many times after working up a pump I would just keep doing sets and all of a sudden the muscle would just lose all sensation... but I had to keep going because I had to do 4 sets of 10, and then 4 more sets for the next exercise, etc. ::)
progressive tension overload is still important but don't get caught up in the have to beat the logbook every workout crap.
you don't want to overdo the volume either...if you start losing the pump then you have definately done too many sets. keep a good pace and make sure that you actually target the muscles...keep the workout density high.
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The muscle would still have blood in it and look huge, it was just felt like an empty, lifeless void.
Can you get a pump every time you work out? I seem to have lost the ability entirely, which is why I eventually stopped lifting. I think it was from so many years of abuse. I wonder if I'll ever recover?
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6-10 reps 8)
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Yep.
I occasionally have let my ego get the best of me in the past, and tried to see what my max lifts were, It's nonsense.....
It's been a long ass time since i've done less than ten reps in a set, and I never have back pain, knee pain...any of that shit and I'm 46. when i was 36 and squatting 500, my body ached for days after a hard session...fuck that noise.
Definitely not worth the joint stress to muscle gain ratio; starting to feel it too..
Used to squat like a monkey 5 plates at least every other leg workout, came back after a layoff because disk issues few years back, obviously no heavy shit, in a matter of weeks, my legs were bigger than ever and fuller by sticking to leg extension, some front squat but all light shit...
who knows.. well disgusted does :)
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fwiw my legs were the biggest ever after 2 months of lifting nothing but 115. i just did one set for time, and then two brutal sets of 30 leg extensions / 3 normal sets of hamstring curls.
i started at 2:00 and worked up, over the course of about two months, to 4:40 seconds at an even pace with the 135. then i ran over to the leg extension machine and did the most painful sets of my life.
i still think even this was too much because at around the 3:00-3:30 mark I would sort of be a zombie with no muscle sensation... probably should have stopped there.
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Did Kamali ever display signs of sadness because of how badly he went from good to bad in bodybuilding? Catch him ever looking at himself in dissapointment?
I think I got King into pretty good shape for this show, back to his younger years. If we would have continued on this path keeping his waist in check adding a tad more muscle in the right spots and 10% better conditioning well who knows it was not to be.
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Yep, I've seen them all and while it looks cool to throw around big weight in the end by the time you are 45 you are a complete mess of injuries. Extreme size comes from hormones anyway so why not enjoy training till you are old.
"Extreme size comes from hormones anyway"...Agreed
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The muscle would still have blood in it and look huge, it was just felt like an empty, lifeless void.
Can you get a pump every time you work out? I seem to have lost the ability entirely, which is why I eventually stopped lifting. I think it was from so many years of abuse. I wonder if I'll ever recover?
of course you will...but you need a positive attitude when you workout. after a workout you should feel full of energy...so avoid the super heavy grindy shit..it will make you depressed and not wanna train. you can do sets of 4-5 sometimes but most of them time do not go under 6 reps. fast paced workouts....don't do for example 3x5....do 5x8 smooth reps (using a weight you can do maybe 12 reps)...so first sets feel kind light but on 4-5 you really have to push it. you can also pyramid up..but make sure you have a good pump going as you get to the heaviest set (6-8 reps)...and then follow up with a second exercise where you use same weight on all sets.
you shouldn't feel scared of the weights before the workout...if you do..then you are lifting to heavy. super heavy should only bee done sometimes. too much of super heavy training = high risk of anxiety unless you have a bullit proof cns
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of course you will...but you need a positive attitude when you workout. after a workout you should feel full of energy...so avoid the super heavy grindy shit..it will make you depressed and not wanna train. you can do sets of 4-5 sometimes but most of them time do not go under 6 reps. fast paced workouts....don't do for example 3x5....do 5x8 smooth reps (using a weight you can do maybe 12 reps)...so first sets feel kind light but on 4-5 you really have to push it. you can also pyramid up..but make sure you have a good pump going as you get to the heaviest set (6-8 reps)...and then follow up with a second exercise where you use same weight on all sets.
you shouldn't feel scared of the weights before the workout...if you do..then you are lifting to heavy. super heavy should only bee done sometimes. too much of super heavy training = high risk of anxiety unless you have a bullit proof cns
thanks, i really wish i had people to tell me these things a decade ago
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thanks, i really wish i had people to tell me these things a decade ago
i see kids who wanna look good naked doing starting strength and shit like that...lifting too heavy and very limited routines in terms of exercise selection and volume. that's not bodybuilding that ego lifting or powerlifting. not the same thing.
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disgusted, what's your take on vitamin C?
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thanks, i really wish i had people to tell me these things a decade ago
the powerlifters who do the super heavy lifting very often use stimulants and other type of drugs (including specific types of aas) to combat the workout anxiety.
a natural who wants to lift for many years can't train like that...at least not all the time. need to be smart.
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i see kids who look good naked doing starting strength and shit like that...lifting too heavy and very limited routines in terms of exercise selection and volume. that's not bodybuilding that ego lifting or powerlifting. not the same thing.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Disgusted is one of my favorite posters on GETBIG.... I'd definitely like to get more information from him!
So here's a question, what do you think is optimal protein intake for natural bodybuilders tryink to add mass?
I've always been a supporter of high high high protein consumption, like 2-2.5 g per pound of bodyweight! I made my best results following that method. But so many things I'm reading now is moving away from that idea.
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Disgusted is one of my favorite posters on GETBIG.... I'd definitely like to get more information from him!
So here's a question, what do you think is optimal protein intake for natural bodybuilders tryink to add mass?
I've always been a supporter of high high high protein consumption, like 2-2.5 g per pound of bodyweight! I made my best results following that method. But so many things I'm reading now is moving away from that idea.
"I've always been a supporter of high high high protein consumption, like 2-2.5 g per pound of bodyweight!"...Not needed...overkill
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I like anywhere from 8 to 12 on average, but tend to stay around 12. I love to do high reps on legs on occasion 50 to 100 reps just for fun. I can get by with 10 sets for arms and 12 or slightly more for larger parts. I move pretty quick too. One thing you will notice is that if you rest just even 10 seconds more you are going to be a lot stronger the next set.
About volume, you seem to be somewhere in between low and high volume right?
Also I was wondering about what would be better.
For example for arms. 6 sets for bis and 6 for tris (with failure, forced reps etc)
OR
12 for bis and 12 for tris WITHOUT going to failure AT all. Just stop 2-3 reps away from "true failure".
What do you have to say, thanks.
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About volume, you seem to be somewhere in between low and high volume right?
Thats called Medium :D
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About volume, you seem to be somewhere in between low and high volume right?
Also I was wondering about what would be better.
For example for arms. 6 sets for bis and 6 for tris (with failure, forced reps etc)
OR
12 for bis and 12 for tris WITHOUT going to failure AT all. Just stop 2-3 reps away from "true failure".
What do you have to say, thanks.
Why not do both? Just switch it around, nothing is worse than doing the same shit all the time.
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Subscribe.
Don't want to miss anything by Disgust.
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Thats called Medium :D
lol ;D rocket science.
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All of his advice seems to be spot on to my knowledge.
I also know he is a big supporter of high Vit C intake for health reasons. He recommended a book to me a few years ago that really opened my eyes to the benefits of Vit C.
Here is one of the books.
"Why animals don't get heart attacks but people do"
http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Attacks-People-Fourth-Revised/dp/0967954681
8)
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All of his advice seems to be spot on to my knowledge.
I also know he is a big supporter of high Vit C intake for health reasons. He recommended a book to me a few years ago that really opened my eyes to the benefits of Vit C.
Here is one of the books.
"Why animals don't get heart attacks but people do"
http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Attacks-People-Fourth-Revised/dp/0967954681
8)
So true, almost every animal makes Vitamin C except for humans primates and guinea pigs
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About volume, you seem to be somewhere in between low and high volume right?
Also I was wondering about what would be better.
For example for arms. 6 sets for bis and 6 for tris (with failure, forced reps etc)
OR
12 for bis and 12 for tris WITHOUT going to failure AT all. Just stop 2-3 reps away from "true failure".
What do you have to say, thanks.
for that shit just site inject them like a real man would ! >:(
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disgusted, what's your take on vitamin C?
I like to take 4 to 6 grams a day. You'll have to so your own research and make up your mind as to whether you think it is worth it.
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All of his advice seems to be spot on to my knowledge.
I also know he is a big supporter of high Vit C intake for health reasons. He recommended a book to me a few years ago that really opened my eyes to the benefits of Vit C.
Here is one of the books.
"Why animals don't get heart attacks but people do"
http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Attacks-People-Fourth-Revised/dp/0967954681
8)
Yes its one of the main reason I believe my arteries are all clear.
http://store.ourhealthcoop.com/Heart_Plus_p/he.htm
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Ground Breaking Information here
::) ::) ::)
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Disgusted is one of my favorite posters on GETBIG.... I'd definitely like to get more information from him!
So here's a question, what do you think is optimal protein intake for natural bodybuilders tryink to add mass?
I've always been a supporter of high high high protein consumption, like 2-2.5 g per pound of bodyweight! I made my best results following that method. But so many things I'm reading now is moving away from that idea.
If you ask that questions to 10 different people you will get 10 different answers and be more confused than ever. General rule 1 gram per pound and I stress general. My people believe that a natural would need even more protein, but there is also the argument that a natural can not process protein as well as someone using anabolics. If you feel that you gains are better when your protein levels are higher than by all means stick to that! Bottom line is this. A natural is only going to get so big and forcing extra protein in WILL NOT FORCE GROWTH.
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Yes its one of the main reason I believe my arteries are all clear.
http://store.ourhealthcoop.com/Heart_Plus_p/he.htm
gold right there! damn why dont you share some more info like this?
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i agree with most everything being said in this thread except training frequency and rep range.
once per week isnt often enough. if your still sore 4 days after training you overtrained. twice a week is about right, but more like 6-7 times per month .. (take a few days off every now and then).
reps 10-15 are good, reps above 20 are not. reps 5-10 are very good, just dont go to failure and dont do too many. if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally. even just one set in the lower rep range is good. dont exclude heavy lifting just be smart about it. good form.
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i agree with most everything being said in this thread except training frequency and rep range.
once per week isnt often enough. if your still sore 4 days after training you overtrained. twice a week is about right, but more like 6-7 times per month .. (take a few days off every now and then).
reps 10-15 are good, reps above 20 are not. reps 5-10 are very good, just dont go to failure and dont do too many. if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally. even just one set in the lower rep range is good. dont exclude heavy lifting just be smart about it. good form.
x2
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i agree with most everything being said in this thread except training frequency and rep range.
once per week isnt often enough. if your still sore 4 days after training you overtrained. twice a week is about right, but more like 6-7 times per month .. (take a few days off every now and then).
reps 10-15 are good, reps above 20 are not. reps 5-10 are very good, just dont go to failure and dont do too many. if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally. even just one set in the lower rep range is good. dont exclude heavy lifting just be smart about it. good form.
To each his own bro. I'm not a small guy and I've been training a body part once per week for over 20 years. As far as legs go, again they are not small and I rarley go below 15 reps on anything. Now, the two quotes by you below are just dead wrong.
"once per week isnt often enough" "if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally" (pure balogna)
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To each his own bro. I'm not a small guy and I've been training a body part once per week for over 20 years. As far as legs go, again they are not small and I rarley go below 15 reps on anything. Now, the two quotes by you below are just dead wrong.
"once per week isnt often enough" "if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally" (pure balogna)
tbombz u should know better than to say that
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I agree with everything Disgusted has said with the exception of training requency - 4-5 times a week is too much for a natural in my opinion and you'll burn out sooner rather than later.
Training for a natural should be pretty instinctive - if you are tired from the previous day's workout (assuming you're also working a full-time job as well), then don't go to the gym - only go back once your energy levels have returned, usually by the following day. I've been training one on, one off for the last year now and have had better results, am more rested, and have an improved quality of life as well to do other things because not all my time is spent in the gym like it used to be. Occasionally I'll do two workouts on consecutive days depending on what bodyparts I'm doing, but I will NEVER train three days in a row no matter how I feel.
But having said all that, everyone's different and you've got to find out for yourself what works best for you.
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I agree with everything Disgusted has said with the exception of training requency - 4-5 times a week is too much for a natural in my opinion and you'll burn out sooner rather than later.
Training for a natural should be pretty instinctive - if you are tired from the previous day's workout (assuming you're also working a full-time job as well), then don't go to the gym - only go back once your energy levels have returned, usually by the following day. I've been training one on, one off for the last year now and have had better results, am more rested, and have an improved quality of life as well to do other things because not all my time is spent in the gym like it used to be. Occasionally I'll do two workouts on consecutive days depending on what bodyparts I'm doing, but I will NEVER train three days in a row no matter how I feel.
But having said all that, everyone's different and you've got to find out for yourself what works best for you.
Jason, let me clarify something. I am not saying that one should train a body part once per week. I'm saying that you can grow training a body part once per week. I'm really not a big fan of the term over training. I also think that training should be instinctive for everyone once they develop an understading of the basics.
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To each his own bro. I'm not a small guy and I've been training a body part once per week for over 20 years. As far as legs go, again they are not small and I rarley go below 15 reps on anything. Now, the two quotes by you below are just dead wrong.
"once per week isnt often enough" "if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally" (pure balogna)
Spot on!
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If you ask that questions to 10 different people you will get 10 different answers and be more confused than ever. General rule 1 gram per pound and I stress general. My people believe that a natural would need even more protein, but there is also the argument that a natural can not process protein as well as someone using anabolics. If you feel that you gains are better when your protein levels are higher than by all means stick to that! Bottom line is this. A natural is only going to get so big and forcing extra protein in WILL NOT FORCE GROWTH.
Sometimes it baffles me to see guys 160-170lbs single digit BF, down 350 grams protein per day.
Personally i'm around 230g per day, 250g tops. Never been over 300g.
I think Cutler said he eats 300-500g protein per day depending on his carb intake. and he is what, 280lbs? single digit
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Jason, let me clarify something. I am not saying that one should train a body part once per week. I'm saying that you can grow training a body part once per week. I'm really not a big fan of the term over training. I also think that training should be instinctive for everyone once they develop an understading of the basics.
Ah right - I'm with you - thanks for clarifying. 8)
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Yep, I've seen them all and while it looks cool to throw around big weight in the end by the time you are 45 you are a complete mess of injuries. Extreme size comes from hormones anyway so why not enjoy training till you are old.
Jim, would you say that that extreme size comes from the length of time you have been training and on hormones or from the amount of hormones you take?
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&guy guys in their teens and twenties should train for strength. Doing routines like three to four exercises per body part with two work sets per exercise. Reps around 6 to 8 with legs getting higher reps. So a chest workout could look something like this: Flat bench 2 x 6; Incline barbell 2 x 6; and flat flies 2 x 10. Use a warm up set as needed but 2 work sets per exercise. Try to get stronger in every workout. When you burn out take a week off and maybe change around exercises like using dumbbell inclines instead of barbell. One body part every 5 to 7 days.
The problem with using a high intensity type of routine is that you can't get strong forever. You can't go up in a linear fashion. High intensity trainer should attempt an extra rep or adding weight every workout. High intensity leads to burn out but quick results. I can't count how many times through my life I've gotten into great shape in three weeks using high intensity.
The problem with high intensity is burning out from hitting your head so to speak against the wall. No one can train forever using HIT. That's why you got some HIT nuts saying they just train twice a week for 20 minutes. They made their training so hard that it's all they can stand.
Having said all this stuff about HIT and trying to gain strength, a long term strategy is to use volume. I call volume endurance training. Using 4 to 6 sets per exercise with moderate weights will keep you gaining for a long time because your adaptation to volume has a longer threshold ceiling compared to HIT.
One way I found to use volume is this example. If your are doing Bench for 5 x 12 reps; the first set you could get 20 but you do 12. The second maybe you could get 15 but you do 12. Third maybe 13 but do 12. Forth you hit 12 which is about failure. On the fifth you reach a failure at 8 reps. When you can get all 5 sets of 12 you up the weight or try to do the 5 sets quicker. Your second chest exercise inclines you follow the same system. Obviously this quick volume training will severely limit the weight used but many HIT guys find themselves rapidly growing again using this type training.
Lastly Bill Pearl says on this site don't train to failure. He said it leads to burn out then to many lost training days. I understand what Pearl is saying. Heavy slow brutal training leads to quick results but quick burn out.
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''do not train to failure''... every time i hear this i which i could punch the shit out of the dumbass who said that
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If you did one set to real failure say one set of benches for 8 reps you couldn't do a second set for 8 reps. If you could do another 8 reps in your second set you didn't truly train to failure in the first.
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I agree with Jones when he said that you should do the absolute minimum the will give you OPTIMAL results. Anything more is wasted effort at best and counter productive at worse. The question is what is the absolute minimum required? What is optimal? It is my belief, for the recreational trainee, it is better to err on the side of under training rather than over training. With under training results come slower or not at all. With over training you are putting in extra effort to regress. When it gets to the point where you dread going to the gym you are going too much. You should think in terms of the long haul. I've been training with weights non stop for 39 years straight. I've stuck to a 3x/wk schedule for around the last 20 years. There's been times when I bump it up to 4x/wk (instead of chest/delts/tris I'd break it up to chest one day then delts/tris the next) but I'd soon get burnt out in a few weeks. I know that sounds strange and I'm not really doing more exercises as such. Just breaking a one day routine into a two day routine. But it seems to make a difference. With 3x/wk I can always grind through a workout because I know I get the next day off. And those two day rest after legs is always welcome.
I posted these in another thread as they were taken a couple of days ago. There was no prepping, dialing it in, dieting, pumping up, elaborate photo session. Just a couple of pics of my everyday walk around condition while I was debating with Basile in another thread. I'm 51 years old now.
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Somehow I knew this would lead to a volume vs hit debate.
I believe you need both heavy training and volume endurance type training.
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''do not train to failure''... every time i hear this i which i could punch the shit out of the dumbass who said that
It is my belief, and I got this from A. Jones, that as long as you are doing something that is already easy it will do very little or nothing to stimulate and adaptive response. To me that makes intuitive sense. As long as you do 8 reps at 205lbs never trying for the 9th rep what reason does your body have to adapt and get stronger and therefore bigger.
Tbombz doesn't even believes this as he believes in progressive over load. It doesn't matter if that over load is an additional rep at the same weight or the same reps at a heavier weight.
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Somehow I knew this would lead to a volume vs hit debate.
I believe you need both heavy training and volume endurance type training.
Doesn't have to be all or nothing. One set versus fifteen sets. There's a middle ground. Two sets versus fourteen sets.
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If you did one set to real failure say one set of benches for 8 reps you couldn't do a second set for 8 reps. If you could do another 8 reps in your second set you didn't truly train to failure in the first.
your way; 1st set:8 reps, 2nd set: 8reps. my way: 1st set: 9reps 2nd sets:7. total reps for both ways are 16, but with my way, you stimulate your body to ADAPT to what he FAILED to achieve, therefore coming back stronger next time, if proper rest was included
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your way; 1st set:8 reps, 2nd set: 8reps. my way: 1st set: 9reps 2nd sets:7. total reps for both ways are 16, but with my way, you stimulate your body to ADAPT to what he FAILED to achieve, therefore coming back stronger next time, if proper rest was included
Exactly. After a warm up and beginning your work set, if you can do the same number of reps with the same weight on the second set as you did on the first it just tells me you didn't really push yourself on the first set. I mean, I guess if you push the first set to failure and rest ten minutes maybe you can duplicate the performance. But what's the point?
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Jones always seemed to me to be out of shape to me. He has that one picture of him doing a most muscular but most pictures he looks like a 145lb out of shape guy. All that bs about him weighing 200lbs back in the day is something I don't believe.
I have heard the Jones rhetoric for ever. I'm 52 and I have read almost everything he as written. I have his original training books and every article he has ever written in Ironman. I have been a hit trainer most of my life.
Volume training isn't easy and it does lead to adaptation. Try doing 5 sets of squats.
Could you imagine a sprinter saying a marathoner doesn't train hard because he runs all those sub maximal miles? I hear low set trainers say this all the time about volume trainers. 5 sets of chins is tough just as one set of chins to failure is tough but you are comparing apples to oranges.
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Jones always seemed to me to be out of shape to me. He has that one picture of him doing a most muscular but most pictures he looks like a 145lb out of shape guy. All that bs about him weighing 200lbs back in the day is something I don't believe.
I have heard the Jones rhetoric for ever. I'm 52 and I have read almost everything he as written. I have his original training books and every article he has ever written in Ironman. I have been a hit trainer most of my life.
Volume training isn't easy and it does lead to adaptation. Try doing 5 sets of squats.
Could you imagine a sprinter saying a marathoner doesn't train hard because he runs all those sub maximal miles? I hear low set trainers say this all the time about volume trainers. 5 sets of chins is tough just as one set of chins to failure is tough but you are comparing apples to oranges.
I've certainly done fives sets and more of squats during in my time. It depends solely on intensity. If I can do, say, 12 reps at 225 lbs failing on the 13th rep but, instead of 12 reps, I decided to do just 6 reps. I could easily preform 5 or more sets no problem. About a month ago, after being stuck at a certain rep range forever (19 reps), I decided I was going to break that plateau or die trying (lol) which was 20 reps. I did those 20 reps but immediately collapsed on the floor and laid on my back for a full ten minutes. I couldn't continue with the rest of my training. I just went home and was on the couch for the rest of the day and evening just drinking Up Your Mass drink as I really didn't feel like eating. By around 10 pm I was beginning to feel better and at least took a shower. My workout that day consisted of just that one work set of squats.
Nobody said that marathoners don't work hard. But don't conflate hard work with intensity. Jones was very clear about that and claimed that for the purpose of increasing strength and muscle mass intensity was the most important factor in preforming an exercise. It is like comparing apples to oranges. Just like the physiques of a sprinter compared to a long distance runner is apples to oranges. I prefer to look and perform like a sprinter.
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Jones always seemed to me to be out of shape to me. He has that one picture of him doing a most muscular but most pictures he looks like a 145lb out of shape guy. All that bs about him weighing 200lbs back in the day is something I don't believe.
I have heard the Jones rhetoric for ever. I'm 52 and I have read almost everything he as written. I have his original training books and every article he has ever written in Ironman. I have been a hit trainer most of my life.
Volume training isn't easy and it does lead to adaptation. Try doing 5 sets of squats.
Could you imagine a sprinter saying a marathoner doesn't train hard because he runs all those sub maximal miles? I hear low set trainers say this all the time about volume trainers. 5 sets of chins is tough just as one set of chins to failure is tough but you are comparing apples to oranges.
BTW, what type of routine are you doing these days? Not specifically: but frequency, duration and intensity? How many sessions/wk? How long/session? How intense?
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I don't believe Jones was right about the magic bullet being the intensity of one set. The overwhelming amount of bodybuilders, power lifters, Olympic lifters and athletes using weight use mulitple sets. If doing one set was all that was needed to exhaustion was the magic trigger all would be doing that. I do believe two sets is better than one. Three sets is better than two but the gains diminish with each set.
I currently use a four way split. Monday is chest. Tuesday is back. Wednesday is off. Thursday is legs. Friday is delts and arms. Weekend is off. I also use cardio using biking and running. I use three to four exercises per body part and two work sets per exercise not counting warm ups. So biceps could be 2 x8 for barbell curls. 2 x 8 alternate dubbell curls and 2 x10 of concentration curls. This is similar to the type routine Dorian Yates used prior to him going to his one work set per exercise.
I do change up my routines a lot.
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I like reading the advice in this thread, but I feel like people use the same word to mean different things.
For instance "failure". I remember reading something Arnold wrote in his encyclopedia along the lines of: "Many trainers tell me they cant squat another rep, but I force them to and guess what, they always can!"
I took this sentence very seriously and would take my squat sets to excruciating extremes. I would feel terrified of doing another rep, but I always forced myself to get one or two more... and then another one or two, until I couldn't even do a rep with bad form and collapsed onto the pins. This is what I think of when I think of going to failure.
And now people will probably say, "well of course stupid, you broke form to get those extra reps." But doesn't everyone? After all, if you absolutely refuse to budge on form at all, going "to failure" is actually pretty easy. Where do you draw the line on this? Do you go all out, and do anything to get the extra reps? Do you stop as soon as you can't accelerate the weight perfectly smoothly? Or somewhere in between?
The more I watch professional bbers actual training vids (not the DVD performances) and pay attention to these things, the more it seems like they stop almost just as soon as the going gets a little tough. If this is "failure" then I had quite the wrong impression for many years...
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I don't believe Jones was right about the magic bullet being the intensity of one set. The overwhelming amount of bodybuilders, power lifters, Olympic lifters and athletes using weight use mulitple sets. If doing one set was all that was needed to exhaustion was the magic trigger all would be doing that. I do believe two sets is better than one. Three sets is better than two but the gains diminish with each set.
I currently use a four way split. Monday is chest. Tuesday is back. Wednesday is off. Thursday is legs. Friday is delts and arms. Weekend is off. I also use cardio using biking and running. I use three to four exercises per body part and two work sets per exercise not counting warm ups. So biceps could be 2 x8 for barbell curls. 2 x 8 alternate dubbell curls and 2 x10 of concentration curls. This is similar to the type routine Dorian Yates used prior to him going to his one work set per exercise.
I do change up my routines a lot.
I don't believe that either. But there is a difference between once set per exercise and one set per body part. But the principles of intensity vs duration are sound and they are inversely proportional. The harder you train the less you can train. You can jog for an hour or more. How long can you full all out sprint? That is measures in seconds.
So if two is better than one, three is better than two is four better than three? How about twenty better than three? Or thirty? Fourty? Fifty?
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I like reading the advice in this thread, but I feel like people use the same word to mean different things.
For instance "failure". I remember reading something Arnold wrote in his encyclopedia along the lines of: "Many trainers tell me they cant squat another rep, but I force them to and guess what, they always can!"
I took this sentence very seriously and would take my squat sets to excruciating extremes. I would feel terrified of doing another rep, but I always forced myself to get one or two more... and then another one or two, until I couldn't even do a rep with bad form and collapsed onto the pins. This is what I think of when I think of going to failure.
And now people will probably say, "well of course stupid, you broke form to get those extra reps." But doesn't everyone? After all, if you absolutely refuse to budge on form at all, going "to failure" is actually pretty easy. Where do you draw the line on this? Do you go all out, and do anything to get the extra reps? Do you stop as soon as you can't accelerate the weight perfectly smoothly? Or somewhere in between?
The more I watch professional bbers actual training vids (not the DVD performances) and pay attention to these things, the more it seems like they stop almost just as soon as the going gets a little tough. If this is "failure" then I had quite the wrong impression for many years...
Jones formally defined training to failure as unable to do another rep in good form. It was Mentzer that started introducing (not creating or inventing) intensity variables such as forced reps, drop sets, rest pause... It was Mentzer's belief that just because you couldn't do that 9th rep at 200lbs doesn't mean you had nothing left. You can still generate, say, 190lbs, and then 175 lbs... hence the force reps. And when you can no longer generate the positive portion of a rep (concentric contraction) you still can generate force via the negative portion of the rep (eccentric contraction). I guess when you can no longer initiate any movement whatsoever, when muscle is completelyunable to contract, I guess that would be total failure.
Don't know if that is even possible or sustainable let alone necessary but I would think the scanty minimum would be Jone's original definition.
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Jim, would you say that that extreme size comes from the length of time you have been training and on hormones or from the amount of hormones you take?
Leaf that is an excellent question. I have always said that people never give themselves time to GROW INTO THEIR CYCLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many people will get on 500 mgs of whatever and then after 12 weeks when they stop putting on "scale weight" they think they have to up the dose. Hell doing it this way one is going to be using 3000 mgs a week and then wonder why they don't look like Mr Pro.
Leaf if I were you I would pick 5 or 6 of my favorite supps and rotate 3 on at a time. I personally would not go above 1000 mgs per week and just use the basics. I don't like test, but that is a personal choice. Be consistant!! There is a lot to be said for the effectives of EQ, Deca, Dbol, Winny, Anadrol. Be careful though cause you might end up looking like this.
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I like reading the advice in this thread, but I feel like people use the same word to mean different things.
For instance "failure". I remember reading something Arnold wrote in his encyclopedia along the lines of: "Many trainers tell me they cant squat another rep, but I force them to and guess what, they always can!"
I took this sentence very seriously and would take my squat sets to excruciating extremes. I would feel terrified of doing another rep, but I always forced myself to get one or two more... and then another one or two, until I couldn't even do a rep with bad form and collapsed onto the pins. This is what I think of when I think of going to failure.
And now people will probably say, "well of course stupid, you broke form to get those extra reps." But doesn't everyone? After all, if you absolutely refuse to budge on form at all, going "to failure" is actually pretty easy. Where do you draw the line on this? Do you go all out, and do anything to get the extra reps? Do you stop as soon as you can't accelerate the weight perfectly smoothly? Or somewhere in between?
The more I watch professional bbers actual training vids (not the DVD performances) and pay attention to these things, the more it seems like they stop almost just as soon as the going gets a little tough. If this is "failure" then I had quite the wrong impression for many years...
BTW, did you see Jay's latest Chest workout that was posted here? I thought he was training pretty hard and intensely. Took every set to positive failure along with some partials and even drop sets. Just because you aren't screaming and swearing and making contorted facial expressions doesn't mean you aren't training hard.
I consider Ed Corney's set of squats in Pumping Iron to be high intensity and about as hard as you want to go on squats. I don't believe he could have done many more sets with that type of effort so it would have been pointless.
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Leaf that is an excellent question. I have always said that people never give themselves time to GROW INTO THEIR CYCLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many people will get on 500 mgs of whatever and then after 12 weeks when they stop putting on "scale weight" they think they have to up the dose. Hell doing it this way one is going to be using 3000 mgs a week and then wonder why they don't look like Mr Pro.
Leaf if I were you I would pick 5 or 6 of my favorite supps and rotate 3 on at a time. I personally would not go above 1000 mgs per week and just use the basics. I don't like test, but that is a personal choice. Be consistant!! There is a lot to be said for the effectives of EQ, Deca, Dbol, Winny, Anadrol. Be careful though cause you might end up looking like this.
How do you feel about hgh? What dosages do you think is good?
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Leaf that is an excellent question. I have always said that people never give themselves time to GROW INTO THEIR CYCLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many people will get on 500 mgs of whatever and then after 12 weeks when they stop putting on "scale weight" they think they have to up the dose. Hell doing it this way one is going to be using 3000 mgs a week and then wonder why they don't look like Mr Pro.
Leaf if I were you I would pick 5 or 6 of my favorite supps and rotate 3 on at a time. I personally would not go above 1000 mgs per week and just use the basics. I don't like test, but that is a personal choice. Be consistant!! There is a lot to be said for the effectives of EQ, Deca, Dbol, Winny, Anadrol. Be careful though cause you might end up looking like this.
You sound like Dr. Walczak from back in the 1980s. Didn't even believed in cycling like you don't cycle calories. It's a long term gradual thing. He started at 200mgs deca every two weeks along with 3 tabs of dbol. And just like you gradually increase calories you gradually increase the dose. And he didn't believe in using testosterone. He said the whole reason AAS was developed in the first place was as a refinement of testosterone. To minimize the androgenic properties (defined then as the primary and secondary sexual characteristics) while maintaining or enhancing the anabolic (muscle building) properties. He considered steroids to be much safer with less sides than testosterone.
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BTW, did you see Jay's latest Chest workout that was posted here? I thought he was training pretty hard and intensely. Took every set to positive failure along with some partials and even drop sets. Just because you aren't screaming and swearing and making contorted facial expressions doesn't mean you aren't training hard.
Can't find it, would you mind posting the link?
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You sound like Dr. Walczak from back in the 1980s. Didn't even believed in cycling like you don't cycle calories. It's a long term gradual thing. He started at 200mgs deca every two weeks along with 3 tabs of dbol. And just like you gradually increase calories you gradually increase the dose. And he didn't believe in using testosterone. He said the whole reason AAS was developed in the first place was as a refinement of testosterone. To minimize the androgenic properties (defined then as the primary and secondary sexual characteristics) while maintaining or enhancing the anabolic (muscle building) properties. He considered steroids to be much safer with less sides than testosterone.
i have read about that guy...he knew his shit...he said that as a natural you wont grow much more after 3-5 years of proper training. and it's pretty much spot on...IF you have been training somewhat seriously. you can keep getting stronger but you will hardly grow after that. alot of people fool themselves tho by simply becoming fatter.
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Can't find it, would you mind posting the link?
I tired. The search engine sucks. I'm sure it's on one of his sites or on MD. I think it's 4 weeks out. It was posted by Muscle Center whom I'm sure would repost it for you or give you the link.
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How do you feel about hgh? What dosages do you think is good?
OK here's the thing. There are tons of guys from years ago walking around huge with out GH. Most guys on this board complain about how shitty the guys of today look, but they all want to take the drugs like they do? You can't have both. You got guys who weigh 190 and think they need to get on 6 iu's of GH 1000 mgs of test and insulin to get big. Go ahead and see how you look at 6 months. Pellius is right as I don't like test. If you want to use it go ahead, but I laugh when I hear about people using 2 to 3 grams a week. I feel sorry for some of these guys who are spending their last dime on all this GH. Look at the pic of Robby I posted. Do you think he was taking Gh, tons of test and slin? Hell no, there was lots of Deca and Dbol back then with some winny and primo. Yeah there were some other things, but deca and dbol built most of what you see in the 70's and early 80's.
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OK here's the thing. There are tons of guys from years ago walking around huge with out GH. Most guys on this board complain about how shitty the guys of today look, but they all want to take the drugs like they do? You can't have both. You got guys who weigh 190 and think they need to get on 6 iu's of GH 1000 mgs of test and insulin to get big. Go ahead and see how you look at 6 months. Pellius is right as I don't like test. If you want to use it go ahead, but I laugh when I hear about people using 2 to 3 grams a week. I feel sorry for some of these guys who are spending their last dime on all this GH. Look at the pic of Robby I posted. Do you think he was taking Gh, tons of test and slin? Hell no, there was lots of Deca and Dbol back then with some winny and primo. Yeah there were some other things, but deca and dbol built most of what you see in the 70's and early 80's.
Can you go into specific on why don;t like test? I am planning my first cycle and your advice is appreciated. Also, if deca and dbol built guys back then, why were they always so dry, why don't they look like the marshmallow men of todayin the off season. Primo? thx
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Disgusted: what are some of your favourite back exercises? How would you rate deadlifts from the floor?
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OK here's the thing. There are tons of guys from years ago walking around huge with out GH. Most guys on this board complain about how shitty the guys of today look, but they all want to take the drugs like they do? You can't have both. You got guys who weigh 190 and think they need to get on 6 iu's of GH 1000 mgs of test and insulin to get big. Go ahead and see how you look at 6 months. Pellius is right as I don't like test. If you want to use it go ahead, but I laugh when I hear about people using 2 to 3 grams a week. I feel sorry for some of these guys who are spending their last dime on all this GH. Look at the pic of Robby I posted. Do you think he was taking Gh, tons of test and slin? Hell no, there was lots of Deca and Dbol back then with some winny and primo. Yeah there were some other things, but deca and dbol built most of what you see in the 70's and early 80's.
so most of what gh15 has been posting is bullshit?
:D
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so like gh15 said, lift to stimulate not annihilate? my cousin's routine used to be: 3 sets flat bench, 3 sets flat dumbbell bench, 3 sets incline, 3 sets incline db, 3 sets incline flies, 3 sets cable flies and every now and then some decline ;D ;D
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so like gh15 said, lift to stimulate not annihilate? my cousin's routine used to be: 3 sets flat bench, 3 sets flat dumbbell bench, 3 sets incline, 3 sets incline db, 3 sets incline flies, 3 sets cable flies and every now and then some decline ;D ;D
lots of redundancy in that routine ;D
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Can you go into specific on why don;t like test? I am planning my first cycle and your advice is appreciated. Also, if deca and dbol built guys back then, why were they always so dry, why don't they look like the marshmallow men of todayin the off season. Primo? thx
Another huge misconception. Most guys swell up with some water in the beginning on Dbol, but that goes away after some time.
Test has lots of sides. I am going to quote Pellius who quoted Dr Walczak, " To minimize the androgenic properties (defined then as the primary and secondary sexual characteristics) while maintaining or enhancing the anabolic (muscle building) properties. He considered steroids to be much safer with less sides than testosterone."
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first blood where have you been?
what happened to "i wanna mutate!"??
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Disgusted: what are some of your favourite back exercises? How would you rate deadlifts from the floor?
Used to do deads years ago, but most people like width cause that's impressive right? Work the outer lats with stiff arm pulldowns, seated pulldowns to rear and front. DB pullovers too.
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so most of what gh15 has been posting is bullshit?
:D
Actually no, GH15 is telling you how to look like the guys on stage today.
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To each his own bro. I'm not a small guy and I've been training a body part once per week for over 20 years. As far as legs go, again they are not small and I rarley go below 15 reps on anything. Now, the two quotes by you below are just dead wrong.
"once per week isnt often enough" "if you never do low reps you wont gain strength optimally and thus wont grow optimally" (pure balogna)
once per week just isnt optimal, thats all. your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it.
and not doing low reps isnt optimal either. you will get bigger faster by incorporating low reps. now, drug intake and genetics determine your maximum muscular potential.. and one could reach their full potential by only dong high reps and only training once a week. but it will take longer than if they were to train more optimally. same end result just get there quicker by doing things better.
It is my belief, and I got this from A. Jones, that as long as you are doing something that is already easy it will do very little or nothing to stimulate and adaptive response. To me that makes intuitive sense. As long as you do 8 reps at 205lbs never trying for the 9th rep what reason does your body have to adapt and get stronger and therefore bigger.
Tbombz doesn't even believes this as he believes in progressive over load. It doesn't matter if that over load is an additional rep at the same weight or the same reps at a heavier weight.
there is nothing special about reaching failure. what makes a muscle grow is time under tension and progressive overload. over working a muscle by pushing it to failue repeatedly only inhibits your bodies ability to grow as it has to deal with the damage caused by those sets. one set to failure is ok and can work but the idea is to get your muscle able to lift heavy weight for a bunch of sets in multiple rep ranges. whats going to be bigger, a muscle that can do one set to failure at 10 reps with 300lbs or a muscle that can do 10 easy sets of 6 with 300lbs. the muscle capable of doing multiple sets will be bigger than the one which can only do one set.
also, and this is a key point, just because your not pushing your muscle to the point of failure, does not mean the weight was easy to lift or that your muscle hasnt been taxed/stimulated. every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. more reps without over training= more growth. the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form, but not to tax your cns and muscle fibers to the point where they have to focus on repairing damage instead of growing.
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first blood where have you been?
Very busy, I'm afraid. So no bible studies lately ;). I was gonna do a gh15 nutrition bible but simply haven't had the time...
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Used to do deads years ago, but most people like width cause that's impressive right? Work the outer lats with stiff arm pulldowns, seated pulldowns to rear and front. DB pullovers too.
Thanks. I feel that deadlifts steal alot of energy from your overall recovery pool and don't necessarily give the growth that you could believe just from looking at poundages.
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once per week just isnt optimal, thats all. your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it.
and not doing low reps isnt optimal either. you will get bigger faster by incorporating low reps. now, drug intake and genetics determine your maximum muscular potential.. and one could reach their full potential by only dong high reps and only training once a week. but it will take longer than if they were to train more optimally. same end result just get there quicker by doing things better.
there is nothing special about reaching failure. what makes a muscle grow is time under tension and progressive overload. over working a muscle by pushing it to failue repeatedly only inhibits your bodies ability to grow as it has to deal with the damage caused by those sets. one set to failure is ok and can work but the idea is to get your muscle able to lift heavy weight for a bunch of sets in multiple rep ranges. whats going to be bigger, a muscle that can do one set to failure at 10 reps with 300lbs or a muscle that can do 10 easy sets of 6 with 300lbs. the muscle capable of doing multiple sets will be bigger than the one which can only do one set.
also, and this is a key point, just because your not pushing your muscle to the point of failure, does not mean the weight was easy to lift or that your muscle hasnt been taxed/stimulated. every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. more reps without over training= more growth. the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form, but not to tax your cns and muscle fibers to the point where they have to focus on repairing damage instead of growing.
I see that you spend time reading lyle mcdonalds material. Very good stuff for a natural (his site).
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I see that you spend time reading lyle mcdonalds material. Very good stuff for a natural (his site).
nope dont read his site im speaking from personal experience and what i see in the gym. i actually think naturals are probably better off training to failure repeatedly.
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once per week just isnt optimal, thats all. your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it.
and not doing low reps isnt optimal either.
Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.
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Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.
huge as fuck 8)
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also, and this is a key point, just because your not pushing your muscle to the point of failure, does not mean the weight was easy to lift or that your muscle hasnt been taxed/stimulated. every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. more reps without over training= more growth. the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form, but not to tax your cns and muscle fibers to the point where they have to focus on repairing damage instead of growing.
Interesting post. Many believe you MUST damage the muscle so that it "rebuilds bigger than ever." This is repeated everywhere, but I think is just another unfounded prejudice.
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Very busy, I'm afraid. So no bible studies lately ;). I was gonna do a gh15 nutrition bible but simply haven't had the time...
We miss you, FB!!
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Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.
dude where are you from? you look familiar...
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nope dont read his site im speaking from personal experience and what i see in the gym. i actually think naturals are probably better off training to failure repeatedly.
Ok, I'm not looking to argue but it's pretty obvious from several of your posts. He is very knowledgeable, certainly a great resource for natural lifters. Progressive tension overload + a certain amount of fatigue stimulus.
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Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.
:o You look like a tank Mr Magnone! Wiiiiide.
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Interesting post. Many believe you MUST damage the muscle so that it "rebuilds bigger than ever." This is repeated everywhere, but I think is just another unfounded prejudice.
Failure is not a must for growth. Progressive tension overload is the main thing. In many cases failure training can be detrimental. But there is a lot of individual variation as to how much failure training you can handle. The break down and rebuild concept is flawed.
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Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.
what did i say ? i said you could get there faster, but it would be the same end result, and that genetics and drug intake determine your maximum.. you could post a picture of ronnie coleman in 2003 and make the same argument.. but im not saying ronnie could have gotten any bigger had he trained more often.. what im saying is he probably could have gotten to that point in less time
Interesting post. Many believe you MUST damage the muscle so that it "rebuilds bigger than ever." This is repeated everywhere, but I think is just another unfounded prejudice.
bro science. damaging the muscle is a bad thing. stimulating is good.
Ok, I'm not looking to argue but it's pretty obvious from several of your posts. He is very knowledgeable, certainly a great resource for natural lifters. Progressive tension overload + a certain amount of fatigue stimulus.
maybe we just think alike cuz i really dont ever go to his site, the last time i read anything from his was four years ago about keto dieting.
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Tbombz Even if this is true "your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it." It doesn't mean that your muscle immediately start to shrink after 3 days. Also you need to take into account that you are getting secondary stimulus from doing other exercises.
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Tbombz Even if this is true "your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it." It doesn't mean that your muscle immediately start to shrink after 3 days. Also you need to take into account that you are getting secondary stimulus from doing other exercises.
agreed.
maybe its beneficial to cycle between twice a week and once a week training. i know that with twice per week training my volume is very limited even though i dont go to failure (4-6 sets per body part). i could see doubling or tripling volume while decreasing frequency to once per week working good.
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Tbombz Even if this is true "your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it." It doesn't mean that your muscle immediately start to shrink after 3 days. Also you need to take into account that you are getting secondary stimulus from doing other exercises.
And in regards to training there are other variables you need to take into account a part from how long protein synthesis is elevated. Neural recovery etc (which is one reason why you don't wanna overdo it with failure training)
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Failure is not a must for growth. Progressive tension overload is the main thing. In many cases failure training can be detrimental. But there is a lot of individual variation as to how much failure training you can handle. The break down and rebuild concept is flawed.
Agreed, failure is not a must. I used to go to failure years ago, I'm bigger now that that I don't.
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agreed.
maybe its beneficial to cycle between twice a week and once a week training. i know that with twice per week training my volume is very limited even though i dont go to failure (4-6 sets per body part). i could see doubling or tripling volume while decreasing frequency to once per week working good.
That actually sounds like a good idea. Main thing is keep it fun and interesting.
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I agree with Jones when he said that you should do the absolute minimum the will give you OPTIMAL results. Anything more is wasted effort at best and counter productive at worse. The question is what is the absolute minimum required? What is optimal? It is my belief, for the recreational trainee, it is better to err on the side of under training rather than over training. With under training results come slower or not at all. With over training you are putting in extra effort to regress. When it gets to the point where you dread going to the gym you are going too much. You should think in terms of the long haul. I've been training with weights non stop for 39 years straight. I've stuck to a 3x/wk schedule for around the last 20 years. There's been times when I bump it up to 4x/wk (instead of chest/delts/tris I'd break it up to chest one day then delts/tris the next) but I'd soon get burnt out in a few weeks. I know that sounds strange and I'm not really doing more exercises as such. Just breaking a one day routine into a two day routine. But it seems to make a difference. With 3x/wk I can always grind through a workout because I know I get the next day off. And those two day rest after legs is always welcome.
I posted these in another thread as they were taken a couple of days ago. There was no prepping, dialing it in, dieting, pumping up, elaborate photo session. Just a couple of pics of my everyday walk around condition while I was debating with Basile in another thread. I'm 51 years old now.
Good solid build.... Scrath that. Great build.
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And in regards to training there are other variables you need to take into account a part from how long protein synthesis is elevated. Neural recovery etc (which is one reason why you don't wanna overdo it with failure training)
Tell me about it. Years ago when I did the beyond failure stuff I felt like shit all the time. Hard to recover and could barely do anything other than lift. Good way to burn out your adrenal glands.
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Tbombz Even if this is true "your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it." It doesn't mean that your muscle immediately start to shrink after 3 days. Also you need to take into account that you are getting secondary stimulus from doing other exercises.
Excellent point! This is another thing that is repeated everywhere.
I haven't lifted a weight in a month and a half and I'm not much smaller yet... makes you wonder how much we really need to work out...
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I was doing smith squats with 405 for 10 and as high as 475 for 6. I switched this week (my first week back since the show) to free weight and just started with 225 and i could really feel a huge difference in the amount of muscle fibers incorporated. My legs were burning for once so i think this year ill try to build my free weight squat to that level.
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Tell me about it. Years ago when I did the beyond failure stuff I felt like shit all the time. Hard to recover and could barely do anything other than lift. Good way to burn out you adrenal glands.
Can you tell me what the symptoms the symptoms are of adrenal fatigue? I think I might be affected by this. I've had to stop lifting entirely.
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I like the beyond failure approach to biceps and calves, actually with calves I go heavy as I can twice a week, maybe he only body part Ireally like to go heavy with
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It's great to discuss training with someone who has as much practical experience as Disgusted. I have been reading massive amounts of 'theory' but it's obvious to me that a lot of the research that is relevant for hypertrophy is flawed and of poor quality.
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I was doing smith squats with 405 for 10 and as high as 475 for 6. I switched this week (my first week back since the show) to free weight and just started with 225 and i could really feel a huge difference in the amount of muscle fibers incorporated. My legs were burning for once so i think this year ill try to build my free weight squat to that level.
I imagine if you had been free squatting with 405 for years and went and did smith squat with 225 you'd feel the same way. I bet after a couple sessions you'll feel no special extra result from free squatting.
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That actually sounds like a good idea. Main thing is keep it fun and interesting. drug intake as high as possible
:P
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Tell me about it. Years ago when I did the beyond failure stuff I felt like shit all the time. Hard to recover and could barely do anything other than lift. Good way to burn out your adrenal glands.
Exactly, as someone else mentioned in the thread you should feel energized after a workout not like you have been run over by a truck (most of the time). I believe in cycling heavier loading with a bit lighter loading. Accumulation - intensification as poliquin calls it (although he certainly didn't come up with the name or the concept).
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Can you tell me what the symptoms the symptoms are of adrenal fatigue? I think I might be affected by this. I've had to stop lifting entirely.
Well extreme fatigue like you feel after you've done one of those workouts but it never going away fully. I was big into the Mentzer Jones Nautilus stuff years ago. I dreaded those workouts, but also loved them too. ??? Yeah I was mental back then. When I got done with one of those torture sessions I felt like I was hit by a truck, OK maybe more than one truck. This feeling never fully went away. Some days felt better than others, but for the most part just tired and I was in my teens and 20's back then so I should not have felt that way.
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I imagine if you had been free squatting with 405 for years and went and did smith squat with 225 you'd feel the same way. I bet after a couple sessions you'll feel no special extra result from free squatting.
Possible. My problem is i get addicted to the weight and when i plateau i don't change things. Even if im doing the same thing every week its hard to make me change. I like having a work out partner sometimes because i let them lead and usually don't care. It forces me to change things but im alone when i train 99% of the time.
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Can you tell me what the symptoms the symptoms are of adrenal fatigue? I think I might be affected by this. I've had to stop lifting entirely.
The 'usual' overtraining/overreaching symptoms. Lack of motivation, depression, irritability, joint pain, general tiredness, lack of results (or even regression) etc
edit: not necessarily all of them.
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Possible. My problem is i get addicted to the weight and when i plateau i don't change things. Even if im doing the same thing every week its hard to make me change. I like having a work out partner sometimes because i let them lead and usually don't care. It forces me to change things but im alone when i train 99% of the time.
back off the intensity and just do a few sets of low reps, then go back to your old training.. you should experience a bump in strength about 2 weeks after.
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It's great to discuss training with someone who has as much practical experience as Disgusted. I have been reading massive amounts of 'theory' but it's obvious to me that a lot of the research that is relevant for hypertrophy is flawed and of poor quality.
Whenever I read about training from an instructional document, whether written by some "guru" trying to push their system, or some scientific type trying to interpret a study, the same thing always occurs to me: the information is incomplete and worthless! In the former case, these people have no ability to critically examine their experiences, and in the latter, the person seems to believe that because they are backing up their statements with "scientific studies" (usually an extremely specific study that says little to nothing) they can make make whatever inference they want.
in any case i think these people are too incautious, and unwittingly take many things for granted when writing their guides. asking people for advice and observing their workouts as much as possible is going to help you far more.
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:P
Haha ;D Yeah after all these years I still love to lift. Drugs or no drugs in the end we have to enjoy it cause if not then it's all about the drugs.
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Well extreme fatigue like you feel after you've done one of those workouts but it never going away fully. I was big into the Mentzer Jones Nautilus stuff years ago. I dreaded those workouts, but also loved them too. ??? Yeah I was mental back then. When I got done with one of those torture sessions I felt like I was hit by a truck, OK maybe more than one truck. This feeling never fully went away. Some days felt better than others, but for the most part just tired and I was in my teens and 20's back then so I should not have felt that way.
This describes me. When you say "never fully went away," do you mean EVER or after you changed your workout style did it just take a long time to get back to normal?
Also are there any medical tests which can help discover things like this?
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From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are. You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.
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Haha ;D Yeah after all these years I still love to lift. Drugs or no drugs in the end we have to enjoy it cause if not then it's all about the drugs.
Enjoy the journey ;)...not just the end result.
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From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are. You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.
You need to find a balance. Not too little or too much...although in many cases it's best to err on the side of caution.
And as a natural you don't have the same margin of error as a hormonized lifter has.
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Well extreme fatigue like you feel after you've done one of those workouts but it never going away fully. I was big into the Mentzer Jones Nautilus stuff years ago. I dreaded those workouts, but also loved them too. ??? Yeah I was mental back then. When I got done with one of those torture sessions I felt like I was hit by a truck, OK maybe more than one truck. This feeling never fully went away. Some days felt better than others, but for the most part just tired and I was in my teens and 20's back then so I should not have felt that way.
Each day I do the Adonis 100.
I train one bodypart a day and do 3-4 exercises 4 sets each and once I finish with that, I go to the first exercise I did and start with a little more weight than I did on my first set and the goal is to get to 100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes. The weight is heavy enough to where I can just get 10-13 reps.
If I have to drop the weight a bit during the Adonis 100, I do it once I reach 25 reps.
I did it for squats today, after going very heavy, and I don`t think I have ever had a more difficult workout.
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You need to find a balance. Not too little or too much...although in many cases it's best to err on the side of caution.
And as a natural you don't have the same margin of error as a hormonized lifter has.
Complete bullshit in my opinion. The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume. There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion.
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Each day I do the Adonis 100.
I train one bodypart a day and do 3-4 exercises 4 sets each and once I finish with that, I go to the first exercise I did and start with a little more weight than I did on my first set and the goal is to get to 100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes. The weight is heavy enough to where I can just get 10-13 reps.
If I have to drop the weight a bit during the Adonis 100, I do it once I reach 25 reps.
I did it for squats today, after going very heavy, and I don`t think I have ever had a more difficult workout.
That means you can do 4 sets of 25 reps with minimal break inbetween with a weight you think you can rep for 10?
Maybe you lie to yourself a bit there?
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Complete bullshit in my opinion. The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume. There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion.
for a natural, i think you might be right. but for a juicer overtraining is a very serious problem. hard to explain, i think maybe the drugs make you very sensitive to resistance exercise and in turn some negative feedback loops are created.
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That means you can do 4 sets of 25 reps with minimal break inbetween with a weight you think you can rep for 10?
Maybe you lie to yourself a bit there?
No you missed what I said completely.
I do 10-13. Rest just barely enough to get another 10-13 to make 25 reps. Then I May lower the weight, or I may not. If I don`t lower the weight, the reps become less and less and the sets increase. I don`t care how many sets it takes as the goal is 100 reps.
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No such thing as too much weight training? So take a weight you can do 10 fairly comfortable reps with, and do 2000 reps each day -- this will help?
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Complete bullshit in my opinion. The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume. There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion.
I strongly disagree. Overtraining exists, althought it's not as common as some people claim because most people don't train hard enough for a long enough time period to get overtrained. They may overreach (overtraining light) but not many normal trainees overtrain. But there are certainly psycho bodybuilders who do overtrain.
The best life time naturals are freaks and can get away with stuff the average lifter can't. And many times these guys lie about their 'supplementation'.
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No you missed what I said completely.
I do 10-13. Rest just barely enough to get another 10-13 to make 25 reps. Then I May lower the weight, or I may not. If I don`t lower the weight, the reps become less and less and the sets increase. I don`t care how many sets it takes as the goal is 100 reps.
Ah ok, got you.
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Yep, I've seen them all and while it looks cool to throw around big weight in the end by the time you are 45 you are a complete mess of injuries. Extreme size comes from hormones anyway so why not enjoy training till you are old.
this ^
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Bump for the bump and full exaustion of the muscle.
Correct Training - recovery - Correct Hormones - plus Correct Diet 8)
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for a natural, i think you might be right. but for a juicer overtraining is a very serious problem. hard to explain, i think maybe the drugs make you very sensitive to resistance exercise and in turn some negative feedback loops are created.
experience led me to a similar conclusion
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there is nothing special about reaching failure. what makes a muscle grow is time under tension and progressive overload. over working a muscle by pushing it to failue repeatedly only inhibits your bodies ability to grow as it has to deal with the damage caused by those sets. one set to failure is ok and can work but the idea is to get your muscle able to lift heavy weight for a bunch of sets in multiple rep ranges. whats going to be bigger, a muscle that can do one set to failure at 10 reps with 300lbs or a muscle that can do 10 easy sets of 6 with 300lbs. the muscle capable of doing multiple sets will be bigger than the one which can only do one set.
I agree with the concept of TUT being a far more accurate method than counting reps (though it is not practical). Your muscles don't count numbers but it does know (metaphorically speaking) how long it is under tension. If you do, say 8 reps on the bench without fully locking out your muscle are under constant tension during that set. If instead you lock out after each rep and pause for a second or so that is quite different. But TUT, in and of itself is not enough, it is a necessary but insufficient condition for stimulating an adaptive reponse. If I pick up a five pound dumbbell and curl it for five minutes I don't think it will stimulate an adaptive response in regard to stimulating size and strength, then if I took a 45 lb dumbbell and crank out 10 clean reps failing to get the 11th.
And you are quite right that "over working a muscle by pushing it to failue repeatedly only inhibits your bodies ability to grow as it has to deal with the damage caused by those sets."
The operative phrases here are "repeatedly" and "over working" which is the reason the training sessions are kept brief and allowing for sufficient recovery. And this varies from individual to individual, age, life styles, etc. To make a blanket statement that it takes x number of days for a muscle to grow and recover doesn't seem accurate. Even if you take identical twins, better yet clones, but all one does is lift weights and lays around all day and sleeps 10-12 hours a night as opposed to his unfortunate twin who works construction 12 hours a day in the hot sun and sleeps six hours a day. And this assumes that calories are NOT the same but that the more active individual consumes far more so that his caloric surplus matches his twin.
also, and this is a key point, just because your not pushing your muscle to the point of failure, does not mean the weight was easy to lift or that your muscle hasnt been taxed/stimulated. every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. more reps without over training= more growth. the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form, but not to tax your cns and muscle fibers to the point where they have to focus on repairing damage instead of growing.
This corresponds to your initial point that "there is nothing special about reaching failure." It is special in the sense that you are working more intensely than if you were to stop, say, two reps from failure. And, yes, it does not mean that the weight was easy to lift (though you could say "easier" of that your muscle "hasn't been taxed/stimulated." Mentzer addressed this possibility. Who is to say that it ONLY takes 100% momentary maximal effort? Maybe it's 95% or 90%? Maybe even just 70%? I think even you, yourself, suggested, 85%(?). But the problem is, how do you measure it? How do you know if you are working at 92% of your maximum effort? Mentzer propose that you can only accurately measure two values of intensity: Zero and a 100.
But unlike zero percent of intensity which I think can be measured exactly; 100% is still a subjective evaluation. There's 100% of effort and there's 100% of effort with Jones pointing a pistol at your head as he allegedly did to Viator. But it's still measured much more accurately than some midrange percent of intensity of effort.
And I don't think it make intuitive sense that every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. In fact, this is disproved everywhere at every time at all gyms throughout the world. I've trained in a lot of different gym throughout my 39 years of continuous training and the vast majority of the trainees in there don't look like they've ever exercised a day in their life. Say, your best bench lift is 315 lbs for 8 reps. But instead you just do one to two reps every time you bench. Do you think you'll make any progress at all?
"the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form"
Yes: intensity, progression, and varying the stimuli.
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Thanks. I feel that deadlifts steal alot of energy from your overall recovery pool and don't necessarily give the growth that you could believe just from looking at poundages.
I agree from a bodybuilding perspective. I do believe it has considerable value in real world conditions. Everyone at some time or another will be required to pick up something heavy from the ground. So once a week, on back day, I very reluctantly, and always under protest, do one warm up set at 135 lbs (6 reps) and then another set with 225lbs for as many reps as I feel like. I don't go balls to the wall on this or pay attention to progression. And my grip isn't the traditional deal lift staggered grip. Both palms face my shins.
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nope dont read his site im speaking from personal experience and what i see in the gym. i actually think naturals are probably better off training to failure repeatedly.
Just the opposite as they don't have the recovery ability as juiced guys have.
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Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.
Holy shit! That's not how I pictured you at all. I always pictured you as sort of a younger looking Arthur Jones minus the guns (as in firearms).
Very impressive.
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Just the opposite as they don't have the recovery ability as juiced guys have.
I find the complete opposite of that to be true.
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Interesting post. Many believe you MUST damage the muscle so that it "rebuilds bigger than ever." This is repeated everywhere, but I think is just another unfounded prejudice.
It never made sense to me this whole "tearing and damaging the muscle" so that it will buildup even stronger. I've had muscle tears before and when it fully healed it certainly didn't get any bigger or stronger.
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From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are. You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.
Depends on what you are talking about. I know most do not like to hear this, but if you are natural then you are going to stop growing eventually, the end. NO I mean the END!!! Yeah but what if I? NO THE END!!!!!!! So when this happens there is really no point in doing anything more than it takes to maintain your size.
There is also no logical reason to think that if you are natural that you have to "train more". Steroids do not work because you train less or more. People who are natural always seem to try and condone what they do based on the opposite of what people who use steroids do. There is nothing wrong with mixing things up for fun sake if you enjoy training, but keep things in perspective and realize that what you are doing is not stimulating any new growth. People who are truely natural will never make any gains past a certain point and if they do it's bacause of drugs. I love how some of these so called naturals try and explain how they gained X amount of muscle for this years show after being natural for years. Well, last year I trained real hard this year I trained reeeeeally hard, I ate more protein, I slept more, I trained a new way. How bout I doubled my Anadrol dose.
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Good solid build.... Scrath that. Great build.
Thanks for not putting in that "for your age" qualifier. I still don't think of myself as 51 years old. I certainly don't act it though I'm not sure that's a good thing. I mean, I'm flirting with a 17 yr old at work. She even asked me if I would "do her" if she were legal. I said that I would "Do her" and "Do her hard. Very hard." Then she said I would have to wait until November. lol!
When her dad, who is about five years younger than me, came by to pick her up and said "Hi!" to me like he does everyday. It just felt different. Poor guy. That's why I'm glad I don't have kids. Especially a daughter.
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I imagine if you had been free squatting with 405 for years and went and did smith squat with 225 you'd feel the same way. I bet after a couple sessions you'll feel no special extra result from free squatting.
BINGO!
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Each day I do the Adonis 100.
I train one bodypart a day and do 3-4 exercises 4 sets each and once I finish with that, I go to the first exercise I did and start with a little more weight than I did on my first set and the goal is to get to 100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes. The weight is heavy enough to where I can just get 10-13 reps.
If I have to drop the weight a bit during the Adonis 100, I do it once I reach 25 reps.
I did it for squats today, after going very heavy, and I don`t think I have ever had a more difficult workout.
thanks for sharing, pansy. who the fuck- if your little 'system' works- would want to look anything remotely close to you anyway.
:D
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From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are. You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.
But you just contradicted yourself when you put in the qualifier "4-7 day a week range." Basile once suggested that if you could, training 8 hours a day everyday would be good. I personally got zero progress when I was doing the 6day/wk training each body part three times per week. And this was in my late teens early twenties -- supposedly my peak recovery years. I'm convinced that training just 3x/wk is what has keep me so consistent over the decades. Even 4x/wk was too much and I'd get burned out after about a month. I can't believe just one extra day (and really not much more actual training/sets) made such a difference.
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Depends on what you are talking about. I know most do not like to hear this, but if you are natural then you are going to stop growing eventually, the end. NO I mean the END!!! Yeah but what if I? NO THE END!!!!!!! So when this happens there is really no point in doing anything more than it takes to maintain your size.
There is also no logical reason to think that if you are natural that you have to "train more". Steroids do not work because you train less or more. People who are natural always seem to try and condone what they do based on the opposite of what people who use steroids do. There is nothing wrong with mixing things up for fun sake if you enjoy training, but keep things in perspective and realize that what you are doing is not stimulating any new growth. People who are truely natural will never make any gains past a certain point and if they do it's bacause of drugs. I love how some of these so called naturals try and explain how they gained X amount of muscle for this years show after being natural for years. Well, last year I trained real hard this year I trained reeeeeally hard, I ate more protein, I slept more, I trained a new way. How bout I doubled my Anadrol dose.
I agree, but here is what I mean when I say Training More is better.
1. You achieve your best possible natural physique in a much shorter amount of time.
2. You Maintain your best possible shape.
3. You are able to eat a lot more calories.
4. Overall Health improves with more frequent training- Greater usage of Neural connections which prevent cognitive decline in later years as well as preventing Neuro-Muscular diseases. Improved VO2, improved blood flow. Lower resting heart rate, improved coordination (especially important as a person ages), Increased Bone Density etc...
5. If you ever fall out of shape, increasing your training to max frequency will put you back to your very best in a much shorter amount of time.
You can get by training less of course, but you may not get the optimum benefits of 1-5 in my opinion.
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Complete bullshit in my opinion. The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume. There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion.
You haven't tried Basile's 8hr/day ed training program
You can over do ANYTHING. You can even over do just staying awake. Even when you have no additional outside stress, both physical or mental, put on your body you still have to sleep every night to recover from the stress and energy required just to remain conscious and alive.
I'm surprise you would make such a blanket statement.
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Just the opposite as they don't have the recovery ability as juiced guys have.
thats what intuition would lead you to but in my experience the best naturals are the guys who work out like crazy, going to failure every set, training 5-7 days a week.
i didnt quote your other post cuz i dont really disagree with anything you said i just think its better to stay away from failure and do more sets as oposed to trying to hit failure and doing one set.
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I find the complete opposite of that to be true.
Well then, in the tradition of the Knights of Round table we shall fight and let God determine the victor and by default who is in the right.
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Concerning Adonis. I can't anyone on my Mac for someone reason. OK your 1-5 has little to do with muscle size so now you are talking about a totally different reason to train more. At this point it sounds like you are using the weights not for muscle growth but for other reasons. Lets talk about #4.
Overall Health improves with more frequent training- Greater usage of Neural connections which prevent cognitive decline in later years as well as preventing Neuro-Muscular diseases. Improved VO2, improved blood flow. Lower resting heart rate, improved coordination (especially important as a person ages), Increased Bone Density etc...
Using resistance training to prevent cognitive decline will do little to prevent brain function from declining. The nigrostriatal tract in the brain typically dies off at an average rate of 13% per decade starting at around age 45. The death rate of the brains neurons is inevitable. Once the nigral neuron population has dropped below 10% of its original number death ensues NO MATTER HOW HEALTHY THE BODY! There are other ways to prevent this from happening that are way more effective than exercise. This is a whole different subject.
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Disgusted: What types of rows do you like? Do you like barbell rows or do you prefer more isolated chest supported rows?
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One arm DB rows are great but you need to find that groove that best hits the lat. It's tuff to describe without showing you. I also liked to do bent rows on a block ala Columbo years ago.
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Thanks for not putting in that "for your age" qualifier. I still don't think of myself as 51 years old. I certainly don't act it though I'm not sure that's a good thing. I mean, I'm flirting with a 17 yr old at work. She even asked me if I would "do her" if she were legal. I said that I would "Do her" and "Do her hard. Very hard." Then she said I would have to wait until November. lol!
When her dad, who is about five years younger than me, came by to pick her up and said "Hi!" to me like he does everyday. It just felt different. Poor guy. That's why I'm glad I don't have kids. Especially a daughter.
pics? :D
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thats what intuition would lead you to but in my experience the best naturals are the guys who work out like crazy, going to failure every set, training 5-7 days a week.
i didnt quote your other post cuz i dont really disagree with anything you said i just think its better to stay away from failure and do more sets as oposed to trying to hit failure and doing one set.
Any chance these guys are young? I worked out like this... no one at my university gym worked out harder than me. In fact, no one came close. And then I crashed hard... really hard.
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Disgusted: What types of rows do you like? Do you like barbell rows or do you prefer more isolated chest supported rows?
pulldowns for width, bb rows for thickness.
Any chance these guys are young? I worked out like this... no one at my university gym worked out harder than me. In fact, no one came close. And then I crashed hard... really hard.
maybe its just genetics, some guys can handle tons of training.. check out the physiques on most serious athletes.. most of em are ripped up.. with enough muscle to make the average person go "wow".. i know when i first started working out i had excellent results training that way.. stopped growing after about 2 years but kept all my size and got leaner while training that way... only since ive been juicing have i experienced overtraining and benefitted from decreased intensity/volume.. in the end you just gotta do what works best for you.. try out some different things
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One arm DB rows are great but you need to find that groove that best hits the lat. It's tuff to describe without showing you. I also liked to do bent rows on a block ala Columbo years ago.
Thanks! What is your opinion on Yates style BB rows? The line of pull is kinda weird on those (compared to for example old school 90 degree rows).
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pulldowns for width, bb rows for thickness.
Pulldowns are good for width but rows can definately make the back wider too as they also hit lats (...although it depends on how you pull....lower abs vs chest etc)
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Thanks! What is your opinion on Yates style BB rows? The line of pull is kinda weird on those (compared to for example old school 90 degree rows).
two completely different exercises. 90 degree rows focus on upper back.. rohboids, traps, rear delts. 45 degree rows focus on lats.
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Thanks! What is your opinion on Yates style BB rows? The line of pull is kinda weird on those (compared to for example old school 90 degree rows).
Done them and like them, but don't go heavy at first. In fact go VERY light to learn the move. There is a very hard peak contraction if done right, but most will never realize it because they go too heavy.
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Pulldowns are good for width but rows can definately make the back wider too as they also hit lats (...although it depends on how you pull....lower abs vs chest etc)
eh, yes .. but not nearly to the degree pulldowns do. rows focus more on overall lat thickness.
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two completely different exercises. 90 degree rows focus on upper back.. rohboids, traps, rear delts. 45 degree rows focus on lats.
See my previous post.
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Thanks! What is your opinion on Yates style BB rows? The line of pull is kinda weird on those (compared to for example old school 90 degree rows).
Done them and like them, but don't go heavy at first. In fact go VERY light to learn the move. There is a very hard peak contraction if done right, but most will never realize it because they go too heavy.
Thank you for your answer. Have you ever tried one of those old school nautilus pullover machines? I would love to try one of those!
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There will be plenty of trapezius involevment in 45 degree rows. More upper trapz than middle trapz tho. I believe that you can divide traps into 4 different 'sections' (1-4).
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Thank you for your answer. Have you ever tried one of those old school nautilus pullover machines? I would love to try one of those!
Yes many times. Mixed feelings about that one. Had a hard time feeling it. Nautilus also made a pulldown machine that was one of those pre-exhaust machines. The first part out it was very nice. You did that exercise first to pre-exhaust before the pulldowns. things has cool as Hell. I would bu one in a sec if I could find one.
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Thank you for your answer. Have you ever tried one of those old school nautilus pullover machines? I would love to try one of those!
Yes many times. Mixed feelings about that one. Had a hard time feeling it. Nautilus also made a pulldown machine that was one of those pre-exhaust machines. The first part out it was very nice. You did that exercise first to pre-exhaust before the pulldowns. things has cool as Hell. I would bu one in a sec if I could find one.
Very neat. I know Dorian was a huge fan of nautilus pullovers and that he would often do them before pulldowns (or alternate them from workout to workout).
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thats what intuition would lead you to but in my experience the best naturals are the guys who work out like crazy, going to failure every set, training 5-7 days a week.
i didnt quote your other post cuz i dont really disagree with anything you said i just think its better to stay away from failure and do more sets as oposed to trying to hit failure and doing one set.
Whoa, it's one thing to say what see you other guys doing and the results they're getting and your personal experience. You can't compare yourself to anybody else. All, or as much as possible, variables must be consistent. And you can never be sure what others are doing when not in the gym. JRod and Faildo claim they are natural. I don't believe it for a second.
And just to be clear, HIT was never about doing just one set per body part. Jones never advocated that, never had Casey do it and even Mentzer during his sane days never did that. In fact one of his chest routines was, after warm ups (never sure how he did or defined those), was one set on the pec deck followed immediately with incline press, then repeat for a total of two cycles, four sets total, ending with a set of cable flies. All with intensity variables. That's still pretty much the basic program I still follow. Super set an isolation exercise with a compound exercise, two cycles.
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Whoa, it's one thing to say what see you other guys doing and the results they're getting and your personal experience. You can't compare yourself to anybody else. All, or as much as possible, variables must be consistent. And you can never be sure what others are doing when not in the gym. JRod and Faildo claim they are natural. I don't believe it for a second.
And just to be clear, HIT was never about doing just one set per body part. Jones never advocated that, never had Casey do it and even Mentzer during his sane days never did that. In fact one of his chest routines was, after warm ups (never sure how he did or defined those), was one set on the pec deck followed immediately with incline press, then repeat for a total of two cycles, four sets total, ending with a set of cable flies. All with intensity variables. That's still pretty much the basic program I still follow. Super set an isolation exercise with a compound exercise, two cycles.
i think your probably overtraining then. the only dude i know who trains h.i.t and has success with it only does ONE set after a few very mild warm ups. and he is a fucking beast, walks around at 5'8'' 240 9-10% bodyfat year round.
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Disgusted: Do you believe in heavy barbell and dumbbell curls or do you prefer more isolation style lifting for biceps (BB/db preacher curls or similar machines etc)?
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"That's still pretty much the basic program I still follow. Super set an isolation exercise with a compound exercise, two cycles."
Do this all the time and love it.
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Disgusted: Do you believe in heavy barbell and dumbbell curls or do you prefer more isolation style lifting for biceps (BB/db preacher curls or similar machines etc)?
Still have no idea why I can not quote anyone on my Mac. Anyway, used to do all diffrent things years ago, but in reality the bicep has such a short contraction range anything will do so I personally do more machines, but occasionally DBs for variety.
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two completely different exercises. 90 degree rows focus on upper back.. rohboids, traps, rear delts. 45 degree rows focus on lats.
Wrong again. Amazing how you could get simple concepts wrong. Look at the line of motion in those movements at various angle. At you start to straighten up, decreasing the angle, the contracting muscles move up from lower lat to upper lat and traps until eventually when you are standing completely straight up you are essentially doing an upright row which is a trap and side delt movement and the lats are no longer engaged.
Because I tweaked my lat on the mats I wasn't able to train lats but I had no problem doing upright row movements Kai Green style (wide grip).
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Disgusted: Do you believe in heavy barbell and dumbbell curls or do you prefer more isolation style lifting for biceps (BB/db preacher curls or similar machines etc)?
Still have no idea why I can not quote anyone on my Mac. Anyway, used to do all diffrent things years ago, but in reality the bicep has such a short contraction range anything will do so I personally do more machines, but occasionally DBs for variety.
Once more, thank you. I will stop bugging you for now. I will be back tomorrow tho! :D (if you don't mind)
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Wrong again. Amazing how you could get simple concepts wrong. Look at the line of motion in those movements at various angle. At you start to straighten up, decreasing the angle, the contracting muscles move up from lower lat to upper lat and traps until eventually when you are standing completely straight up you are essentially doing an upright row which is a trap and side delt movement and the lats are no longer engaged.
Because I tweaked my lat on the mats I wasn't able to train lats but I had no problem doing upright row movements Kai Green style (wide grip).
LOL
no
if you tried doing barbell rows standing straight up you wouldnt be able to
when you lean farther forward the bar moves farther out in front of you, bringing the line of motion up through your upper back. as you stand more upright the bar comes closer to the body, bringin the line of motion through your lower lats.
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First Blood, I don't mind at all. :)
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"That's still pretty much the basic program I still follow. Super set an isolation exercise with a compound exercise, two cycles."
Do this all the time and love it.
Yes, Jones use to say "Train your muscles anaerobically and you body aerobically at the same time." That's why he insisted that you keep moving from one exercise to another as quickly as you can without compromising anaerobic intensity. But I don't think this is ideal for pure bodybuilding but more for athletic conditioning. Boyer Cole once remarked that he needed a bit of time, even just 15-20 seconds to focus and psyche up for his next set. He couldn't do that with Jones hovering around him telling him to keep moving.
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Bad pic but loved this machine.
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LOL
no
if you tried doing barbell rows standing straight up you wouldnt be able to
when you lean farther forward the bar moves farther out in front of you, bringing the line of motion up through your upper back. as you stand more upright the bar comes closer to the body, bringin the line of motion through your lower lats.
OK, now I see the difference here. It matters greater how your elbows are positioned. If you are bent over at 90 degrees and are pulling the dumbbell with your elbows out so that it is perpendicular to your torso you will be working your rear delt/traps. If you pull the dumbbell so that your elbow is held close to your torso then it will be a lat exercise.
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Here's just the lat isolator part. You could fry your lats without involving any other muscle that may give out first.
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OK, now I see the difference here. It matters greater how your elbows are positioned. If you are bent over at 90 degrees and are pulling the dumbbell with your elbows out so that it is perpendicular to your torso you will be working your rear delt/traps. If you pull the dumbbell so that your elbow is held close to your torso then it will be a lat exercise.
right but thats going to be very hard to do with a barbell, inevitably guys trying to do 90 degree bb rows work their upper backs to the exclusion of lats.
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Bad pic but loved this machine.
What the hell ever happened to that machine. They use to have that at Gold's Venice back in the early 1990's. The concept was perfect in that it was like a behind the neck pulldown except full range of motion (your elbows literally starts at your ear) and complete isolation. A perfect compliment with the pullover.
The problem people have with the pullover is almost everyone does it wrong. Most pull with their hands when you should drive back with your elbows. In fact, I would dispense entirely with grasping the front part of the bar and would just position my elbows on the pad, cup my right fist in my left palm (like when martial artist salute each other before combat), so only my elbows are making contact with the pad. Eventually when I got use to the movement I wouldn't even bother with cupping my hands but just leave it out free and position it at various angles for a different effect.
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Here's just the lat isolator part. You could fry your lats without involving any other muscle that may give out first.
Yup, that's it. You can see how you can get full range of motion. Jones was a genius. No one makes that machine anymore but I think anybody who is familiar with weight training can see the advantages to that machine.
BTW, I believe that is Joe Means on that machine. He's one of the physiques I aspired to back in the day.
(http://cdn1.iofferphoto.com/img3/item/206/690/390/9czf.jpg)
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right but thats going to be very hard to do with a barbell, inevitably guys trying to do 90 degree bb rows work their upper backs to the exclusion of lats.
Agreed.
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I have no idea and you're right you started with your biceps pinned against your ears. ;D M lats used to cramp from that machine. On the pullover machine I also learned to just keep my hands off the bar.
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Yup, that's it. You can see how you can get full range of motion. Jones was a genius. No one makes that machine anymore but I think anybody who is familiar with weight training can see the advantages to that machine.
BTW, I believe that is Joe Means on that machine. He's one of the physiques I aspired to back in the day.
(http://cdn1.iofferphoto.com/img3/item/206/690/390/9czf.jpg)
I guess i'm a genius too then ;D....I've been doing those in a makeshift way for 15 years.
I use the freemotion cable setup, put those ankle loop things on it, slip my arms through them and viola...same thing.
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Damn Joe Means, you got a good memory. ;D
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LOL
no
if you tried doing barbell rows standing straight up you wouldnt be able to
when you lean farther forward the bar moves farther out in front of you, bringing the line of motion up through your upper back. as you stand more upright the bar comes closer to the body, bringin the line of motion through your lower lats.
nope...you are saying that the more upright you get, you hit your lower lats more ???
explain shrugs to me then, am i hitting my lower back with them ??? ;D
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I guess i'm a genius too then ;D....I've been doing those in a makeshift way for 15 years.
I use the freemotion cable setup, put those ankle loop things on it, slip my arms through them and viola...same thing.
Holy shit! You're not as dumb as you look! ;D I never thought of that! That might work. That just might fucking work. The problem with those freemotion machines is that you can't get a lot of resistance on those. Even the stack ain't that heavy. But I'm going to try it this Sunday.
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Holy shit! You're not as dumb as you look! ;D I never thought of that! That might work. That just might fucking work. The problem with those freemotion machines is that you can't get a lot of resistance on those. Even the stack ain't that heavy. But I'm going to try it this Sunday.
I works PERFECTLY...think of those arms thing you hang and train your abs with attaches to two cables over your head...now bring your elbows down and back as far as you can...it rules dude
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Disgusted what do you think of Deca? and for how long is it "safe" for your system to use it..
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Disgusted what do you think of Deca? and for how long is it "safe" for your system to use it..
NPP better ;D
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Disgusted what do you think of Deca? and for how long is it "safe" for your system to use it..
Safety is no different than any other at the relative dose for that drug. I always liked EQ better. Deca is one of those that you have to try and see how you like it.
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nope...you are saying that the more upright you get, you hit your lower lats more ???
explain shrugs to me then, am i hitting my lower back with them ??? ;D
yes, thats exactly what im saying. its not just me saying that though, its simple biomechanics.
you need to keep your lower back arched and pull the weight into your navel, its a short range of motion, the line of movement directly through your lower back. when you bend over more, the bar moves farther away from your body, bringin the line of movement through your upper back. if you try to hit your llats doing 90 degree barbell rows by keeping the bar close to your body and pulling it up to your navel, which would be the only way you could hit the lats in that position, you will end up working your glutes and spinal erectors in order to stabilize all that weight , not really your lats.
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Another huge misconception. Most guys swell up with some water in the beginning on Dbol, but that goes away after some time.
Test has lots of sides. I am going to quote Pellius who quoted Dr Walczak, " To minimize the androgenic properties (defined then as the primary and secondary sexual characteristics) while maintaining or enhancing the anabolic (muscle building) properties. He considered steroids to be much safer with less sides than testosterone."
Safety is no different than any other at the relative dose for that drug. I always liked EQ better. Deca is one of those that you have to try and see how you like it.
So to summarize:
Minimizing androgenic effect and maximizing anabolic effect = safer and less sides.
Can you talk more about this and what can be expected? Do you combine them EQ + dbol or just use EQ on its own?
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So to summarize:
Minimizing androgenic effect and maximizing anabolic effect = safer and less sides.
Can you talk more about this and what can be expected? Do you combine them EQ + dbol or just use EQ on its own?
EQ and Dbol go together very well and NO they are not the same thing.
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Best stack a first timer can use -IMO. Is Test E 500mg per week and EQ -600mg a week. this is if your 200pds or more. if you way less than 200pds, id go Test E 400mg a week and EQ 400mg a week. and as a kickstart Dbol 30-50mg daily depending how one responds to it. or tbol wich I even like better 30-50mg daily, or start at 30mg a day and jumg up 10 mg a week.
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Concerning Adonis. I can't anyone on my Mac for someone reason. OK your 1-5 has little to do with muscle size so now you are talking about a totally different reason to train more. At this point it sounds like you are using the weights not for muscle growth but for other reasons. Lets talk about #4.
Overall Health improves with more frequent training- Greater usage of Neural connections which prevent cognitive decline in later years as well as preventing Neuro-Muscular diseases. Improved VO2, improved blood flow. Lower resting heart rate, improved coordination (especially important as a person ages), Increased Bone Density etc...
Using resistance training to prevent cognitive decline will do little to prevent brain function from declining. The nigrostriatal tract in the brain typically dies off at an average rate of 13% per decade starting at around age 45. The death rate of the brains neurons is inevitable. Once the nigral neuron population has dropped below 10% of its original number death ensues NO MATTER HOW HEALTHY THE BODY! There are other ways to prevent this from happening that are way more effective than exercise. This is a whole different subject.
Perhaps you will change your mind on this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/stacy-irvine-dc-msc/exercise-your-brain-power_b_964448.html
Stacy Irvine, D.C., M.Sc.Founder and co-owner, Totum Life Science
Using Exercise to Enhance Your Brain Power
Posted: 9/22/11 03:30 PM ET
Over the past decade neuroscientists have made significant gains in their understanding of brain development and function. In my opinion, the most exciting research has been done in the area of neuroplasticity. Based on this research we now understand that the brain has the ability to change itself through the growth of new neuronal structures.
In his bestselling book, Brain Rules, Dr. John Medina lists 12 rules that explain how brains really work.
I am particularly interested in rule #1, stating that: Exercise boosts brain power. Dr. Medina's book explains that exercise will stimulate the birth of additional neurons in the hippocampus of the brain and that this neuronal growth creates a positive environment for your brain development.
Dr. John Ratey, the author of, Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain, has further explored these concepts in an experimental environment, testing children's cognitive abilities with and without exercise. Based on these findings, Dr. Ratey believes that exercise prior to learning or testing is an effective way to optimize the functioning of the neurons in your brain.
Exercise has also demonstrated a positive influence in the prevention of cognitive decline in older populations. University of Illinois neuroscience professor, Arthur F. Kramer in his meta-analysis looking at exercise and the aging brain, concluded that, "the benefits of physical exercise or physical activities promotes brain and cognitive vitality well into older adulthood."
Based on this research, I think we can safely say that, in addition to the many health benefits we already know about exercise, brain development can be enhanced by exercise. For these, and many other obvious reasons, I find it very discouraging to witness the continued decrease in the physical activity levels of children, both in and outside of school.
Currently, the public school systems in Canada, offer physical education classes one to two hours per week for most grades. In many high schools there is no requirement for physical activity. Our growing problem with childhood obesity supports the idea that children are becoming less active.
Inactivity in children is not only negative from a physical health perspective, but I believe it could also have a detrimental impact on students learning and overall brain development. I think our growing population of inactive and obese children will not reach their physical or intellectual potential, if they remain inactive throughout their formative years.
This is a major problem that parents, teachers and all levels of government cannot ignore. I have been involved with many discussions around these issues, but I have yet to see effective solutions. Obesity is still increasing in our country.
The idea of exercise as a tool for brain development should be very attractive to anyone involved in education. A practical solution would be to start each school day with 30 minutes supervised physical activity. Teachers and students could participate together. This would allow everyone to start their day with enhanced brain function. A brisk walk through the neighbourhood, or laps around the school would be enough exercise to provide significant benefits. It is quite possible you would be able to recruit a few parent volunteers to help supervise the students. I am sure most adults would benefit from an extra 30 minutes of activity a day.
A simple way to benefit from these findings, as Dr. Ratey has suggested, would be to use exercise as a "primer" to enhance your brain's ability to function. This is such a simple concept that is rarely utilized in our busy world.
I have a couple of ideas to help get you started with your brain development: The next time you have a very important meeting that requires quick thinking and active listening, head out for a brisk walk 10 minutes before the meeting, climb some stairs or (if you have a private office) try some standing squats alternating with wall push ups.
If you are a student, try exercising prior to your exams and important lectures. If you are a writer or journalist, try exercising right before you sit down to formulate your latest ideas. Finally, if you are a parent and you have something important to discuss with your children, ask them to take a walk with you in a quiet place where you can share ideas, enjoy nature and build some mental strength. The research shows they might actually be listening and absorbing the information more effectively.
The message is simple. Do some exercise and build your brain!
Follow Stacy Irvine, D.C., M.Sc. on Twitter: www.twitter.com/DrStacyIrvine@t
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Disgusted you don't use test at all or you keep it as low as posibble? ???