Boxer or UFC fighter? Mayweather says boxers would punish UFC champs!!

[americanbulldog]

That's like saying that a high level golfer can't beat an amateur bowler at bowling. It's a different sport.

A MMA fighter can beat a boxer in the MMA ring but not a boxing ring.
A MMA fighter can beat a wrestler in the MMA ring but not a wrestling mat.
A MMA fighter can beat a kickboxer in the MMA ring but not a kickboxing ring. (Example Cro Cop)

When people argue on MMA vs boxer it's always with MMA rules.

Here's are some questions : Would a MMA fighter beat a boxer if you were allowed to take down but can't hit on the ground? Is the boxer wearing the 2 oz. gloves or boxing gloves? Is the fight in a ring with ropes or the octagon with a fence?

No one is asking these questions before making the comparison. That's my point. I really respect all forms of "fighting" but you can't compare two sports that are so different.

A fight between a boxer and a MMA fighter will never happen. Would you want to fight under someone else's rules in their house? No.

A boxer should never fight in a MMA fight cause he would lose and a MMA fighter should never fight in a boxing match cause he would lose.

It's two different sports.

Controversey arose from PBF saying that UFC fighters aint chit.  Reality is, HE KNEW that he wasn't going to fight an MMA fighter under MMA rules.  He is suggesting they fight under boxing rules, which of course, the boxer would win.  With NO TAKEDOWN defense to speak of, he like all other boxers would get off a flicking jab only to be backed up to the fence, and GNPed, then submitted. 

[MisterMagoo]

the problem with this argument is that everyone assumes that they're all separate sports. there are many things you can do in MMA that you can't do in boxing, but as far as i know anything you can do in a boxing ring can be done in the cage.

the question is not who can beat who under whose rules. the question is who can beat who under NO rules, or rules that encompass everything both would like to do.

forcing an MMA fighter to box only is limiting him. forcing a boxer to fight MMA is allowing more. put in an arena and allowing both the boxer and the MMA fighter to use all the tools they have, the MMA fighter would simply annihilate the boxer. why? he has more to work with. it's simple logic.

[BigAlski]

Of course, ancient PANKRATION was/is(?) the "absolute ultimate" empty-handed fighting art...

Pankration, as practiced in the ancient world, combined elements of both boxing (pygme/pygmachia) and wrestling (pale) to create a broad fighting sport similar to today's mixed martial arts. A match was won by submission of the opponent or if the opponent was incapacitated. A contestant could signal submission by raising his hand, but sometimes the only form of submission was unconsciousness or death. Joint locks and choke holds were common techniques of accomplishing this. In fact, there were only two rules: contestants were not allowed to gouge eyes or to bite. Grave, even permanent injuries were common as an accepted means of disabling the adversary: mainly breaking limbs, fingers or even the neck. Pankration bouts were quite brutal and sometimes life-threatening to the competitors. There were no weight divisions and no time limits. The fighting arena or "ring" was no more than twelve by fourteen feet to encourage close-quarter action. Referees were armed with stout rods or switches to enforce the rules against biting and gouging. The rules, however, were often broken by some participants who, realizing they were outclassed by a heavier and stronger foe, would resort to such measures to escape being seriously maimed. The contest itself continued uninterrupted until one of the combatants either surrendered, suffered unconsciousness, or was killed. Although knockouts were common, most pankration battles were decided on the ground where both striking and submission techniques would freely come into play. Pankratiasts were highly-skilled grapplers and were extremely effective in applying a variety of takedowns, chokes, and punishing joint locks. Strangulation was most feared during ground combat, and was the leading cause of death in matches. A fighter would immediately raise his arm in defeat once his opponent's forearm had secured a firm grip across the windpipe or carotid artery (though there are stories of fighters who chose to die rather than surrender.)

If there was no winner by sunset, the judges would declare Klimax and the fighters would start taking alternating undefended blows until one was defeate
 

The feats of the ancient pankratiasts became legendary in the annals of Greek athletics. Stories abound of past champions and masters who were considered invincible beings. Arrichion, Dioxippus and Polydamas are among the most highly-recognized names, their accomplishments defying the odds by besting multiple armed opponents in life-and-death combat.

Among pankration fighters, Dioxippus was the most famous. He won several Olympic games as no one dared challenge him, became friends with Alexander the Great and some accounts claim he defeated one of Alexander the Great's soldiers named Coragus (who fought with weapons and full armour), armed only with a club. Later, Dioxippus was framed of theft, which led him to commit suicide.

In the lead-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, a modern version of pankration (not naked, usually wearing only shorts or a type of loin cloth, sometimes also T-shirts) was tipped as being a new sport in the Olympiad, especially due to its being an event in the ancient games. However, its application (along with that of inline skating) was not approved. Rumours were that it was rejected due to its inherently violent nature, even though the modern version is significantly less violent than the original, and like boxing and wrestling, also ancient Olympic sports, there is an international set of humane rules governing the modern sport.

Influence:
Because of Alexander the Great's impact on the Middle East and India, there is a belief by some that cultural exchange may have occurred in these civilizations. It has been suggested that the fighting systems of India were influenced by the invasions of Alexander, but this has not been substantiated by firm scientific evidence. It is still unknown what cultural influence he may have had on India. A thorough anthropological study of this history would be required.

Pankration's influence on modern culture is still debatable as the modern version of Pankration is not the original form as practiced by the ancient Greeks. The original ancient Greek form of Pankration was not fully transmitted to later generations due to the fall of the Greek and Roman civilizations and the subsequent European Dark Ages. Most modern versions of Pankration are influenced by Western boxing, catch and freestyle wrestling, ancient Greek artifacts (i.e. pottery, vases, sculptures, writings), as well as East Asian martial arts like karate, kung-fu, jujitsu, and muay thai.

Advocates for the sport have formed a US Pankration Team, and it is possible that a modern version of the sport could be introduced at the Olympics in the future.

Some modern pankration groups are seeking to re-introduce classical Hellenistic culture into contemporary martial arts (sport, athleticism, philosophy, ethics, and all round personal development). One such system of "contemporary" Pankration, known as "Mu Tau Pankration," was founded by Demetrios "Jim" Arvanitis in the latter half of the 20th Century. The first modern palaistra (school) was established in 1971.

Mr. Arvanitis has published three non-fictional books on modern pankration: MU TAU: The Modern Greek Karate, Todd & Honeywell, NY, 1979; MU TAU PANKRATION: Volume 1/Concepts and Skills of "All-Powers" Combat, Spartan Publications, Boston, MA, 1997; PANKRATION: The Traditional Greek Combat Sport and Modern Mixed Martial Art, Paladin Press, Boulder, CO, 2003.

Thank you, very informative post. I always try to look at history from outside my owned biased "lens" so to speak and cast it in a more neutral setting.  Certainly combat, even to the death, was more of a feasable alternative than all the other ills that beset a man or woman in these earlier times.  One great book I would suggest reading, although short, is the 1950's classic "For those about to die" which was the cutting edge in gladiatorial history of the time.  Much of "Gladiator" was borrowed from it.  A gladiator fought maybe 4 or 5 times a year once he was renowned and even a loser stood maybe a 20% chance of actually bieng killed so the fighting game was pretty good back in the day compared to the common man's woes.

[americanbulldog]

the problem with this argument is that everyone assumes that they're all separate sports. there are many things you can do in MMA that you can't do in boxing, but as far as i know anything you can do in a boxing ring can be done in the cage.

the question is not who can beat who under whose rules. the question is who can beat who under NO rules, or rules that encompass everything both would like to do.

forcing an MMA fighter to box only is limiting him. forcing a boxer to fight MMA is allowing more. put in an arena and allowing both the boxer and the MMA fighter to use all the tools they have, the MMA fighter would simply annihilate the boxer. why? he has more to work with. it's simple logic.

This is the EXACT POINT.  An MMA fighter wins under no rules.  IF a big name boxer fought under unified MMA rules EVERYONE would see that. 

[MisterMagoo]

This is the EXACT POINT.  An MMA fighter wins under no rules.  IF a big name boxer fought under unified MMA rules EVERYONE would see that. 

it's kinda stupid to look at it any other way, really. hell that's why MMA is so popular, because boxing is a weird combination of brawling and dumb rules. MMA lets guys use everything at their disposal to knock out or submit the opponent.

people who argue on the side of boxers are sorta like the brits getting all pissy in the revolutionary war because those dang Americans wouldn't stand in lines out in the open field like "civilized" soldiers. sure the british would win if that was the case, but that's dumb. use ALL your resources.

[Richard2004]

Hey Richard...  yeah, the tough guy comment wasn't necessary, my apologies.

Either way, this discussion isn't really fair unless we're just talking skills that both guy train.

can a pitcher hit like a outfielder?  They're both pros but you know the difference.

Here you have boxers that never even trained for any of these other skills, but you also have mma guys that train standup hours each day as do boxers.

Why not then put them in a ring and throw hands to see what's up?

Muay thai would be better compared to k1, I believe.

Legbreaker, in my "long 40+ year MMA journey" struggling to learn the MANY fascinating martial-arts disciplines...progressin g through golden gloves boxing (uhhh...by the way, getting "knocked out/down" several times!), intercollegiate freestyle wrestling, judo, additional "hard-arts" (TKD, Karate, Kung-Fu, JKD), military CCC/hand-to-hand-combat), and finally GJJ...I've realized that you never master an art, and no matter how good you think you are there is always (of course!) someone better.  Was it Bruce Lee who is supposed to have said (words to the effect), "the goal it is not in reaching the destination, but in persevering to make the journey"!?

For the "average joe" like myself working a regular job, rearing children, etc., just struggling to stay-in-shape, and finding time to only practice the MMA approx. 4 hours a week, I learned long ago that to enter competiton was really dangerous/unhealthy when you are competing against guys who compete for a living and can train some 8 hrs. a day 6-7 days a week!

You can only hope and pray that if you are ever faced with a real life-and-death situation that you will have developed enough MMA skills to successfully defend yourself adequately to avoid serious injury or death!

I imagine the ancient MMA art of Greek Pankration was the closest thing to REAL life-and-death empty-handed MMA combat and, if you added eye-strikes/gouging, biting, groin attacks w/o a cup, head butts, etc....then you have all of the aspects of true military empty-handed close-quarter combat!?   Of course, this is considerably removed from today's Pride/UFC/KoC MMA sporting competition rules. 

As mentioned, the argument/debate between the relative superiority of the strictly submission wrestler vs. boxer has gone on for centuries and I have personally witnessed (competed-in) several mixed-matches.  I say this because my intercollegiate wrestling team competed in the same gym (at similar times) with our intercollegiate boxing team and we had several mixed challenge matches!  It's just that the boxers always wanted us to wear boxing gloves and step in the ring with them, and we wrestlers, in turn, wanted them to step on the mat with us and let us remain bare-handed...looking back though, it was a lot of fun and quite a learning experience.

Usually the pure submission/freestyle wrestler was successful in closing the gap with a successful clinch and throw, or a successful shoot for a takedown.  Occasionally, the boxer would land a successful combo. and knockout his wrestling-trained opponent in the wrestler's unsuccessful attempt to close the gap.  As we know, some people "can take a punch" and some can't!  Once again, it depends upon the individual's martial-arts skills and his ability to take-a-punch.

I'll tell you that in my observations/experiences, the guys who could really "take out" the boxers were the old-school submission professional wrestlers who were REALLY good at covering-up and blocking/trapping a boxers' punches while simultaneously closing-the-gap with a clinch/shoot, getting the boxer quickly on the ground, and applying the chokes/bars/locks/etc. in short order to submit them! 

[americanbulldog]

Legbreaker, in my "long 40+ year MMA journey" struggling to learn the MANY fascinating martial-arts disciplines...progressin g through golden gloves boxing (uhhh...by the way, getting "knocked out/down" several times!), intercollegiate freestyle wrestling, judo, additional "hard-arts" (TKD, Karate, Kung-Fu, JKD), military CCC/hand-to-hand-combat), and finally GJJ...I've realized that you never master an art, and no matter how good you think you are there is always (of course!) someone better.  Was it Bruce Lee who is supposed to have said (words to the effect), "the goal it is not in reaching the destination, but in persevering to make the journey"!?

For the "average joe" like myself working a regular job, rearing children, etc., just struggling to stay-in-shape, and finding time to only practice the MMA approx. 4 hours a week, I learned long ago that to enter competiton was really dangerous/unhealthy when you are competing against guys who compete for a living and can train some 8 hrs. a day 6-7 days a week!

You can only hope and pray that if you are ever faced with a real life-and-death situation that you will have developed enough MMA skills to successfully defend yourself adequately to avoid serious injury or death!

I imagine the ancient MMA art of Greek Pankration was the closest thing to REAL life-and-death empty-handed MMA combat and, if you added eye-strikes/gouging, biting, groin attacks w/o a cup, head butts, etc....then you have all of the aspects of true military empty-handed close-quarter combat!?   Of course, this is considerably removed from today's Pride/UFC MMA sporting competition rules. 

As mentioned, the argument/debate between the relative superiority of the strictly submission wrestler vs. boxer has gone on for centuries and I have personally witnessed (competed-in) several mixed-matches.  I say this because my intercollegiate wrestling team competed in the same gym (at similar times) with our intercollegiate boxing team and we had several mixed challenge matches!  It's just that the boxers always wanted us to wear boxing gloves and step in the ring with them, and we wrestlers, in turn, wanted them to step on the mat with us and let us remain bare-handed...looking back though, it was a lot of fun and quite a learning experience.

Usually the pure submission/freestyle wrestler was successful in closing the gap with a successful clinch and throw, or a successful shoot for a takedown.  Occasionally, the boxer would land a successful combo. and knockout his wrestling-trained opponent in the wrestler's unsuccessful attempt to close the gap.  As we know, some people "can take a punch" and some can't!  Once again, it depends upon the individual's martial-arts skills and his ability to take-a-punch.

I'll tell you that in my observations/experiences, the guys who could really "take out" the boxers were the old-school submission professional wrestlers who were REALLY good at covering-up and blocking/trapping a boxers' punches while simultaneously closing-the-gap with a clinch/shoot, getting the boxer quickly on the ground, and applying the chokes/bars/locks/etc. in short order to submit them! 

Uh Oh, someone will be bringing up the name of Billie Robinson and Karl Gotch soon. 

[legbreaker]

Good stuff, Richard.

American B,   I love Karl Gotch and have his incredible bodyweight combat training video, which is incredible.  I use many of his training techniques and it's helped tremendously in my own pro wrestling training.
have you ever watched this training dvd?

[Benny B]

Good stuff, Richard.

American B,   I love Karl Gotch and have his incredible bodyweight combat training video, which is incredible.  I use many of his training techniques and it's helped tremendously in my own pro wrestling training.
have you ever watched this training dvd?

I believe you can just buy some of Matt Furey's stuff. He is a believer in the bodyweight exercises of Gotch. I have to say we used them at my school for pre-training conditioning exercises and they are pretty good. However, unlike Furey I have no interest in abandoning weight training.

[legbreaker]

I believe you can just buy some of Matt Furey's stuff. He is a believer in the bodyweight exercises of Gotch. I have to say we used them at my school for pre-training conditioning exercises and they are pretty good. However, unlike Furey I have no interest in abandoning weight training.

I agree Benny, ya gotta keep the weight lifting in there as well.  That's great info though I'll check it out.

[americanbulldog]

I agree Benny, ya gotta keep the weight lifting in there as well.  That's great info though I'll check it out.

My own personal workouts have been a combination of bodyweight exercises, sports specific stuff (I love JC Santana, Rhadi Ferguson's stuff) and olympic lifts with very little specialty stuff.  Cleans, squats, deadlifts, rows.  Old school/new school.  Lots of grip work for my judo as well. 

[americanbulldog]

Sherk responds to PBF.

http://www.randomspeak.com/

"RS: Floyd Mayweather, Jr. came out the last couple weeks completely bashing the UFC and stating that any boxer would demolish a UFC fighter in the cage. Dana White (UFC President) came back at Mayweather and named you as the guy who he'd put Mayweather up against, and that you would handle him no problem. What are your thoughts on the whole situation?

Sean: Well, you know honestly in a boxing match, of course he'd beat me in a boxing match. In an MMA fight, he would be in for a beating. I mean, he's not going to knock me out with one punch; I've got a hard head and have been boxing for 13 years so it's not like I don't know how to box. So, he'd have to land a lot of punches to stop me from taking him down, and me being one of the best wrestlers in the sport, there's no way he could stop me from taking him down.

I don't think that fight would last longer than a minute, to be honest with you. And I don't think he should be talking about something that he can't back up, because I'll fight him tomorrow. I literally would, if they called and asked me to fight Floyd Mayweather, Jr. tomorrow, it's done. He's not going to fight me though, and he's just running his mouth. I don't really respect that a whole lot.

RS: It seems like a lot of boxers are starting to fear the rise of MMA by the way they keep speaking out against it. Do you think MMA has taken over?

Sean: Well it has, the numbers for the UFC are absolutely phenomenal. The numbers are unbelievable, and it's only getting bigger. A fight with me and Mayweather would obviously draw all the boxing fans, and after they see what happens to Floyd they would immediately jump on the UFC bandwagon and say "hey, what the hell are we watching boxing for". So it's a losing situation for boxing."

[legbreaker]

People watch boxing because it is an amazing sport that requires MUCH MORE skill than mma to be the best.

If you doubt that then i simply say, how many years does it take to be the best boxer vs how many years does it take to be the best mma guy?

Answer JUST that question and the answer is there.

Both are great sports, but EVEN sherk just said, "I've been boxing for 13 years"  did you read that?  13 years.....I would bet that Sherk couldn't STILL after 13 years win the NOVICE nystate golden gloves, period.

If I wrestled 13 years I would be a top level wrestler, no doubt!!

I DO think Mayweather disrespected mma, though.  Fighters shouldn't do that because any fighting sport is a tough one and they all get my respect.

I can't get over that 13 years and he still couldn't win the ny gleasons gym fight tournament let alone novice nystate golden gloves....amazing sport is boxing.

Everyone try to catch the delahoya/mayweather specials on hbo leading up to their fight. The training and the skill is truely [phenominal.....man, ten ounce gloves and those hands move so fast and technical it's simply amazing.

Just to bring something up.  I remember the varsity wrestling coach at my school wanting me to wrestle for him when I was in the 8th grade.  He was a heavy weight and about 40, I was 14.  he was showing us different cradles and grapevines.  he had everyone try to hold him in a cradle as he kicked out of everyone.  then came me and he couldn't kick out...the class cracked up.  I went over to the high school practice and out wrestled a a heavyweight varsity wrestler the next week....and I was in the 8th grade and only wrestled for 3 months in junior high school, hahaha.  The guy was so embarrassed.   I loved wrestling but stayed with bodybuilding so I could look like the pro wrestlers I loved, superfly....now I pro wrestle.

Not taking anything from wrestlers or mma guys...I grew up with a well known wrestler and coach, Tommy ryan and know the devotion. 

the elvis (spike tv)match the other day was truely INCREDIBLE with amazing jui jitsu of the highest caliber....you need years to get that great and most still never will, but boxing at mayweathers level is one of a kind.

 

[BEAST 8692]

true, but pbf has always, does and always will do this shit.

come to think of it, all the mayweather clan do. it's their m.o

hype, that's all. not to be taken seriously.

[americanbulldog]

People watch boxing because it is an amazing sport that requires MUCH MORE skill than mma to be the best.

If you doubt that then i simply say, how many years does it take to be the best boxer vs how many years does it take to be the best mma guy?

Answer JUST that question and the answer is there.

Both are great sports, but EVEN sherk just said, "I've been boxing for 13 years"  did you read that?  13 years.....I would bet that Sherk couldn't STILL after 13 years win the NOVICE nystate golden gloves, period.

If I wrestled 13 years I would be a top level wrestler, no doubt!!

I DO think Mayweather disrespected mma, though.  Fighters shouldn't do that because any fighting sport is a tough one and they all get my respect.

I can't get over that 13 years and he still couldn't win the ny gleasons gym fight tournament let alone novice nystate golden gloves....amazing sport is boxing.

Everyone try to catch the delahoya/mayweather specials on hbo leading up to their fight. The training and the skill is truely [phenominal.....man, ten ounce gloves and those hands move so fast and technical it's simply amazing.

Just to bring something up.  I remember the varsity wrestling coach at my school wanting me to wrestle for him when I was in the 8th grade.  He was a heavy weight and about 40, I was 14.  he was showing us different cradles and grapevines.  he had everyone try to hold him in a cradle as he kicked out of everyone.  then came me and he couldn't kick out...the class cracked up.  I went over to the high school practice and out wrestled a a heavyweight varsity wrestler the next week....and I was in the 8th grade and only wrestled for 3 months in junior high school, hahaha.  The guy was so embarrassed.   I loved wrestling but stayed with bodybuilding so I could look like the pro wrestlers I loved, superfly....now I pro wrestle.

Not taking anything from wrestlers or mma guys...I grew up with a well known wrestler and coach, Tommy ryan and know the devotion. 

the elvis (spike tv)match the other day was truely INCREDIBLE with amazing jui jitsu of the highest caliber....you need years to get that great and most still never will, but boxing at mayweathers level is one of a kind.

 

Time involved in a sport doesn't guarantee success.  Physical attributes, mental preparedness and attitude all play roles in sucess in combat sports.  Although I trained judo for a length of time (since I was 12), I couldn't compete at the higher levels because my body couldn't absorb the punishment that judo inflicted.  Skillset wise, I was one of the better judokas at my club, but a couple of shoulder and back injuries derailed my chances of competing at high levels.  

What seperates the good from the great are those blessed with the physical attributes necessary, the willingness, the skillset.  Obviously PBF is one of those.  However the controversey stems from his statement that MMA aint chit.  Could Floyd be a great mma fighter, prolly.  Is he, NO!  He belittled the process of becoming good, or great at mma.  To be good at MMA.  One must be functional at all ranges, and excellent in one.  Most of the time, it takes someone ten years to get their black belt in BJJ (unless you are BJ Penn).  That is a significant time commitment.  Most of the time, most MMA fighters come from a backround preceding MMA.  IE wrestlers, strikers, etc.  So the time commitment to become the top fighters are already there, to discount that is foolish.  

PBF would beat any MMA fighter in a boxing ring.  But in an NHB fight (notice I didn't say MMA), PBF or any world class level boxer would be on the ground receiving a wicked GNP, then get choked out and piss their pants ala Steven Seagull.  

BTW, the jits exhibited in the Elvis/Bisping fight can hardly be compared to watching Roger Gracie, Jacare, Marcelo Garcia. 

[legbreaker]

of course I couldn't compare the JJ in the elvis match with the names you mentioned.  What do you think of Eric Paulsen (sp?)?  I got a incredible leglockes dvd of his.

How many top guys (top 3 each weight class) are black belts in Jui Jistu or abu dabi champs,, or ncaa champs, or top 5 contenders for a boxing title?   

[americanbulldog]

of course I couldn't compare the JJ in the elvis match with the names you mentioned.  What do you think of Eric Paulsen (sp?)?  I got a incredible leglockes dvd of his.

How many top guys (top 3 each weight class) are black belts in Jui Jistu or abu dabi champs,, or ncaa champs, or top 5 contenders for a boxing title?   

Paulsen is a BB under the Machados, won the Pan Ams in 1996, was shooto champ for five years.  He is legit. 

Ricardo Arona, BB, AD open weight champ
BJ Penn, BB (two years at that), Mundial champ, not a single point scored against him
Shinya Aoki, BB, Specatcular use of the rubber guard in MMA.
Kenny Florian, BB, decent muay thai as well
Matt Serra, BB, BJJ world Champ, UFC welterweight champ
Nog, BB, top five fighter and former Pride Heavyweight champ
Murilo Bustamante, BB, former UFC middleweight champ.
Anderson Silva, BB, current UFC middleweight champ.
Paulo Filho, BB, top five in Pride

Too many more to list. 

[bmacsys]

ha ha i had to check what you said a few times there. I thought you were making reference to Paul Varleans! 

I remember "the polar bear" Marco Ruas beat him by stomping on Varleans feat in the UFC back around 1995.

[bmacsys]

Well, it has become to be like that. The first UFC was awesome. Bare knuckles, and the only things you couldn't do were eye-gouge, bite, and strike to the groin.

Guys did punch each other in the balls. That was legal. Keith Hackey hammered Joe Son's. You couldn't fish hook.

[Richard2004]

Surely, we all agree that boxing is a great competitive SPORT with a fantastic historical tradition and, if you carefully tape your hands and wear protective gloves (to prevent the all too common hand-bone fractures) in your limited punching combo. attacks to the upper body...it is a great self-discipline...however, it is also VERY damaging to the body...particularly the brain, as the legions-upon-legions of punch-drunk retired boxers (and some not retired!) can vailidate.

However, if you are going to start mixing martial-arts competitions (hell, forget the "soft" arts...Judo, Jiu/Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, etc...and taking the boxer to the ground, etc.) surely, the magnificent pure hard-art sport of Muay Thai (even eliminiating the art's throwing segment!) is probably the most competitive hard-art.

Muay Thai kickboxers, along with those of comparable K-1 caliber, would do very well in a sporting boxing ring against a boxer with their ADDED devastating battery/array of open-hand strikes, elbow strikes, head butts, leg kicks, knee strikes, and vicious mid-line (body) and high-line (head) roundhouse kicks.! 

I mean, I really cannot see any boxer even surviving in the ring against the best Muay Thai fighters (uhhh...very well trained to "take a punch" and deliver one!)...generally speaking...forgetting the excellent "ground game fighting art experts", altogether!   

[americanbulldog]

Surely, we all agree that boxing is a great competitive SPORT with a fantastic historical tradition and, if you carefully tape your hands and wear protective gloves (to prevent the all too common hand-bone fractures) in your limited punching combo. attacks to the upper body...it is a great self-discipline...however, it is also VERY damaging to the body...particularly the brain, as the legions-upon-legions of punch-drunk retired boxers (and some not retired!) can vailidate.

However, if you are going to start mixing martial-arts competitions (hell, forget the "soft" arts...Judo, Jiu/Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, etc...and taking the boxer to the ground, etc.) surely, the magnificent pure hard-art sport of Muay Thai (even eliminiating the art's throwing segment!) is probably the most competitive hard-art.

Muay Thai kickboxers, along with those of comparable K-1 caliber, would do very well in a sporting boxing ring against a boxer with their ADDED devastating battery/array of open-hand strikes, elbow strikes, head butts, leg kicks, knee strikes, and vicious mid-line (body) and high-line (head) roundhouse kicks.! 

I mean, I really cannot see any boxer even surviving in the ring against the best Muay Thai fighters (uhhh...very well trained to "take a punch" and deliver one!)...generally speaking...forgetting the excellent "ground game fighting art experts", altogether!   

I agree with this assertion, but western boxers do have better hands.  So a combinaiton of freestyle, greco, judo, bjj, muay thai and boxing would give you a complete game to deal with most situations. 

[Richard2004]

I agree with this assertion, but western boxers do have better hands.  So a combinaiton of freestyle, greco, judo, bjj, muay thai and boxing would give you a complete game to deal with most situations. 

Of course, Mayweather doesn't know what he is talkng about when he bashes other martial-arts besides boxing.  Yes, I agree that when it comes to the fine art of punching and blocking/slipping/ducking strictly punches...then Western-style boxing is the best of its limited art.

And, of course, on paper a boxer would not survive at all in an MMA match...as was well-proven in the early days of the UFC (e.g. '93) when Royce Gracie took out boxers in short order (e.g. remember the boxer who stepped in the UFC cage with Royce wearing only one glove?).  It's pretty obvious that once the boxer is brought to the ground by a skilled JJ/submission fighter, he is essentially finished.

However, where do you "draw the line" otherwise!?? 

IMO, the typical well-trained/conditioned MMA fighter can still consistently beat a typical Western-style boxer even while omitting the MMA fighter's use of the clinch/throw/takedown/ground-fighting/submission-wrestling game altogether.  I'm contending that in a strictly stand-up match Muay Thai fighters (in particular) would have the best chance (I guess we should eliminate the head butts as being illegal) provided they would be allowed to use their full range of hand/elbow/knee/leg/foot strikes. 

I mean strictly stand-up...could you see Mayweather surviving a rear-leg full power high-line roundhouse kick to the temple delivered following a punch/strike combo. that would "blind him to this follow-up kick!??  What about the Muay Thai fighters who are so adept at clinching, pulling the head down, and then delivering a battery of body/jaw/face knee strikes!?  Or, the series of withering low-line roundhouse kicks to the outer thighs or, worse yet, to the inner thighs (ala Bas Rutten)!?  Bye bye Mayweather!!

But again, in a fight (empty-handed or even otherwise) anything can happen!  In the ring, it all depends upon the individual, his athletic skills/condition, his heart, and his abilty to survive the punishment...in the ring "you gotta be able to take a shot/punch/strike before you can throw one (always)"...since, we all have a "fight plan" until we get hit!!

[legbreaker]

IMO, the typical well-trained/conditioned MMA fighter can still consistently beat a typical Western-style boxer even while omitting the MMA fighter's use of the clinch/throw/takedown/ground-fighting/submission-wrestling game altogether. 

Just to get it right, did you just say that if the ONLY thing was standup fist (queens of marcbury(sp) rules...typical boxing, that a top mma guy would beat a top boxer?

[BEAST 8692]

Richard, you obviously don't place much value in boxing in mma competitions and looking at it on paper, you seem correct ie less weapons = less performance. real simple. no need for essay after essay.

your simplistic nature is taking a lot of things for granted though, things that i pointed out earlier in the thread.

unfortunately you're also extremely ignorant of the importance of boxing in a typical mma bout.

hand skills (boxing) are the most essential striking skill component in the arsenal of an mma athlete.

that's right, far more important than elbows and lower body attacks or use of the head (obviously covertly because blatant head butting will get you disqualified).

if you haven't done a lot of work on boxing training and sparring then you are NOT going to rise to the top of the current legal mma competitions.

as pointed out by leg breaker and others numerous times, boxing is a skill that you don't just learn as part of your 'mma training'.

i find it amazing that some of you who have supposedly had extensive training in mma competition don't get this point.

pointing to gracie 'owning' boxers in the early days of ufc is disingenuous when you:

1. fail to mention the fact that he was 'owning' everyone in the early days of ufc and

2. don't mention that said boxers wouldn't have won a novice amateur bout at a local boxing event.

3. you mentioned the michael jackson wannabe (1 glove) but you, again, failed to mention that the poor  guy was a punch drunk nobody and had a severe mental illness.

[legbreaker]

I just had to post it again, BEAST 8692, haha...great post.

Richard, you obviously don't place much value in boxing in mma competitions and looking at it on paper, you seem correct ie less weapons = less performance. real simple. no need for essay after essay.

your simplistic nature is taking a lot of things for granted though, things that i pointed out earlier in the thread.

unfortunately you're also extremely ignorant of the importance of boxing in a typical mma bout.

hand skills (boxing) are the most essential striking skill component in the arsenal of an mma athlete.

that's right, far more important than elbows and lower body attacks or use of the head (obviously covertly because blatant head butting will get you disqualified).

if you haven't done a lot of work on boxing training and sparring then you are NOT going to rise to the top of the current legal mma competitions.

as pointed out by leg breaker and others numerous times, boxing is a skill that you don't just learn as part of your 'mma training'.

i find it amazing that some of you who have supposedly had extensive training in mma competition don't get this point.

pointing to gracie 'owning' boxers in the early days of ufc is disingenuous when you:

1. fail to mention the fact that he was 'owning' everyone in the early days of ufc and

2. don't mention that said boxers wouldn't have won a novice amateur bout at a local boxing event.

3. you mentioned the michael jackson wannabe (1 glove) but you, again, failed to mention that the poor  guy was a punch drunk nobody and had a severe mental illness.