I'd like to say sorry to getbig

[lovemonkey]

Asking why is our instinct since our chilhood isnt it?

Can you say lie to you and keep on quiet and deceive yourself?

I see your point but if you wanna take it as far as buddhism what is the point? If you never accept any type of information or knowledge where will it take you? No where.
To claim buddhism gives you insight or makes you more knowledgeable seems like bullshit, honestly.

Again, as I've said before: who has made the best effort to understand the true nature of the universe and what makes it tick; western scientists or far eastern philosophers?

[lovemonkey]

Think.... Improve for what? Why should we improve? We are not perfect?

You like to become a better bodybuilder.

I like to become a more knowledgeable and nicer person (not necessarily more tolerant).

Maybe I was under the false impression that buddhism is supposed to make you wiser and more knowledgeable?

[DK II]

Ok this is what ticks me off a bit. If buddhism has a nice and clear message to improve/get to know yourself, why does it need all that extra superstitious junk in the trunk?

You seem to benefit from buddhism without believing in a bunch of crap, if you don't mind could you in short explain how buddhism has helped you and in what way?

the extra superstitous junk in the trunk is meaningless yet important.

There's a famous story that shows what i mean....

2 american guys went to Japan to stay in a Zen monastery for a few months. Upon arrival, they were send to the abbot. The first american asked the abbot: "when do i get my head shaved so i can be a monk?" the other one said "if it was possible, i would like to keep my hair, i don't want to get my head shaved".
The abbot said, "ok, the first one can keep his hair, the second one has to shave right now". The second one got angry and asked why the one who wanted his head shaved could keep his hair. The abbot said: "Because he doesn't care about it".

So basically, the chants and sutras aren't necessary, but when you understand it and "are awake", you will see that it doesn't matter at all. All you do is live life, or die continously, second after second. You cannot change that (maybe only by killing yourself, but this opens another big barrel), so once you understand that, you can chant and recite sutras again. Then you might also understand why god or not god is unimportant.

[DK II]

You like to become a better bodybuilder.

I
like to become a more knowledgeable and nicer person (not necessary more tolerant).

Maybe I was under the false impression that buddhism is supposed to make you wiser and more knowledgeable?

Yes. Buddhism gives you nothing.

[lovemonkey]

the extra superstitous junk in the trunk is meaningless yet important.

There's a famous story that shows what i mean....

2 american guys went to Japan to stay in a Zen monastery for a few months. Upon arrival, they were send to the abbot. The first american asked the abbot: "when do i get my head shaved so i can be a monk?" the other one said "if it was possible, i would like to keep my hair, i don't want to get my head shaved".
The abbot said, "ok, the first one can keep his hair, the second one has to shave right now". The second one got angry and asked why the one who wanted his head shaved could keep his hair. The abbot said: "Because he doesn't care about it".

So basically, the chants and sutras aren't necessary, but when you understand it and "are awake", you will see that it doesn't matter at all. All you do is live life, or die continously, second after second. You cannot change that (maybe only by killing yourself, but this opens another big barrel), so once you understand that, you can chant and recite sutras again. Then you might also understand why god or not god is unimportant.

From what I've just read I think buddhism should be avoided at all costs(at least for myself). It seems to be nothing else but the lame attempt to strip away everything human from humans. Is this why all the monks you see on the television seem so bored?

I know I'm sounding a bit stupid and naive here, but honestly I will never agree that we can never know.

[DK II]

From what I've just read I think buddhism should be avoided at all costs(at least for myself). It seems to be nothing else but the lame attempt to strip away everything human from humans. Is this why all the monks you see on the television seem so bored?

I know I'm sounding a bit stupid and naive here, but honestly I will never agree that we can never know.

lol, you are WAY off!!

Buddhism embraces life, and shows you exactly how to ship around the pain and misery that is life.

You should read up a bit, seriously. You are a curious person, that's great.

[DK II]

okay, i'm off to bed, thanks to you all for the great discussion!

[lovemonkey]

lol, you are WAY off!!

Buddhism embraces life, and shows you exactly how to ship around the pain and misery that is life.

You should read up a bit, seriously. You are a curious person, that's great.

I think that is a disgusting way of thinking. Seems like a long lost cousin to abrahamic faiths where you are imperfect and full of dirty "sins".

Please correct me if I'm wrong but whenever a philosophy or religion says that life is a misery I get VERY suspicious.

[kyomu]

I think that is a disgusting way of thinking. Seems like a long lost cousin to abrahamic faiths where you are imperfect and full of dirty "sins".

Please correct me if I'm wrong but whenever a philosophy or religion says that life is a misery I get VERY suspicious.

Philosopher would ask even what the meaning of misery.

[Fatpanda]

feeling the love from gene and shadow 

Ok, buddhism doesn't have any sort of gods.

But what I was referring to is statements like this:
Those are metaphoric gods.

Buddha has spoken about god and various other gods (Hindu). When asked about is there one almighty god he always said it doesn't matter, because if there is a god or not humans still have to gain enlightenment for themselves, god or gods wont help.

he also spoke of the Hindu gods kyomu mentioned, and heaven and hell as we know it. He said there are various levels of beings, some on higher planes some on lower planes, ( Krishna, Mara, demons, angels, ghosts, etc - he didn't use all these terms, I'm writing in terms a Christian would understand) each one on that level due to their karma, but they are also striving for enlightenment as they, like us, still have the endless cycle of death and life.

some were present as Buddha gave talks about enlightenment to listened to Buddha themselves - but humans could not see them as they were on different planes.

i hope this helps clarify some things for you.

[DK II]

I think that is a disgusting way of thinking. Seems like a long lost cousin to abrahamic faiths where you are imperfect and full of dirty "sins".

Please correct me if I'm wrong but whenever a philosophy or religion says that life is a misery I get VERY suspicious.

lol, it's TOTALLY different from the original sin, it's simply the truth!

These are the "four noble truths":

   1. The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha):
      "This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."[9][10]
   2. Suffering's Origin (Samudaya):
      "This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."[9][10]
   3. Suffering's Cessation (Nirodha):
      "This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."[9][10]
   4. The Way (Mārga) Leading to the Cessation of Suffering:
      "This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."[11][12]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

[Rami]

What I gathered so far: Buddha was feeling bad, so he went crazy instead. What's so bad about feeling bad, it ain't worth it going totaly high and holy from it. I have concluded it's a bunch of crap. Why study something that doesn't exists.

[Fatpanda]

What I gathered so far: Buddha was feeling bad, so he went crazy instead. What's so bad about feeling bad, it ain't worth it going totaly high and holy from it. I have concluded it's a bunch of crap. Why study something that doesn't exists.

well rami, whatever path you chose, if you focus on helping others and doing no harm then you will advance your spirit/karma regardless of what you believe.

[Rami]

well rami, whatever path you chose, if you focus on helping others and doing no harm then you will advance your spirit/karma regardless of what you believe.

that is rather heartwarming to hear

[DK II]

well rami, whatever path you chose, if you focus on helping others and doing no harm then you will advance your spirit/karma regardless of what you believe.

agreed, i doesn't even matter. you don't have to believe in anything.

[lovemonkey]

agreed, i doesn't even matter. you don't have to believe in anything.

You obviously have to believe in karma, don't you? How can you gain good karma if it doesn't exist?

Sorry to be so picky about these things but I can not for the life of me understand why people insist on complicating these simple matters and invoke all kinds of "superstitious" or imaginary things. I have never "believed" or given this karma thing credit for more than a few seconds and my life and attitude doesn't seem to have suffered.

[DK II]

You obviously have to believe in karma, don't you? How can you gain good karma if it doesn't exist?

Sorry to be so picky about these things but I can not for the life of me understand why people insist on complicating these simple matters and invoke all kinds of "superstitious" or imaginary things. I have never "believed" or given this karma thing credit for more than a few seconds and my life and attitude doesn't seem to have suffered.

how is karma superstitous?

MAybe you do not understand what karma is? it's only cause and reaction. simple physics, or simplest philosophy.

I don't want to be picky myself, but YOU are the one making it all complicated, because you simply do not know much about these things and they are all new to you.

It's like explaining the Alphabet to a child or an adult. For the adult, it's easy, simple, basic, for the child it's a whole new world.

[Deicide]

feeling the love from gene and shadow 

Buddha has spoken about god and various other gods (Hindu). When asked about is there one almighty god he always said it doesn't matter, because if there is a god or not humans still have to gain enlightenment for themselves, god or gods wont help.

he also spoke of the Hindu gods kyomu mentioned, and heaven and hell as we know it. He said there are various levels of beings, some on higher planes some on lower planes, ( Krishna, Mara, demons, angels, ghosts, etc - he didn't use all these terms, I'm writing in terms a Christian would understand) each one on that level due to their karma, but they are also striving for enlightenment as they, like us, still have the endless cycle of death and life.

some were present as Buddha gave talks about enlightenment to listened to Buddha themselves - but humans could not see them as they were on different planes.

i hope this helps clarify some things for you.

Does it bother you that there was likely no historical Buddha?

[lovemonkey]

how is karma superstitous?

MAybe you do not understand what karma is? it's only cause and reaction. simple physics, or simplest philosophy.

I don't want to be picky myself, but YOU are the one making it all complicated, because you simply do not know much about these things and they are all new to you.

It's like explaining the Alphabet to a child or an adult. For the adult, it's easy, simple, basic, for the child it's a whole new world.

Well, do you believe karma exists as a real force? That you're gonna get what you deserve? Are they somehow linked with Newtonian physics? Does it require reincarnation? Fatpanda believes all these things without a shred of proof. Do you?

[DK II]

Well, do you believe karma exists as a real force? That you're gonna get what you deserve? Are they somehow linked with Newtonian physics? Does it require reincarnation? Fatpanda believes all these things without a shred of proof. Do you?

Lovemonkey, you do not understand karma. What you see as karma is what 80s american tv series and disney animation told you is karma.

Karma is cause and reaction, if you want to call this a "force", feel free to do it, it doesn't matter.

Just live your life, one moment at a time. All that matters is this moment, in fact it's all you have. And you will eventually realize that this little moment is a damn good moment. THAT is the way to live life.

[lovemonkey]

Lovemonkey, you do not understand karma. What you see as karma is what 80s american tv series and disney animation told you is karma.

Karma is cause and reaction, if you want to call this a "force", feel free to do it, it doesn't matter.

Just live your life, one moment at a time. All that matters is this moment, in fact it's all you have. And you will eventually realize that this little moment is a damn good moment. THAT is the way to live life.

Ok, so your way of looking at karma is as a metaphor? I've noticed as soon I push you guys on the "reality" of your philosophies you never give a proper answer and say "it doesn't matter". Then what's the point to begin with?

What you see as karma is what 80s american tv series and disney animation told you is karma.

Well no, I've thought of karma as a metaphor for "justice" if you will(non-existent force), but I got a bit confused when I discussed it with Fatpanda when he said he believed all things mentioned above(which require supernatural intervention). I was just curios if you did as well.

[DK II]

Ok, so your way of looking at karma is as a metaphor? I've noticed as soon I push you guys on the "reality" of your philosophies you never give a proper answer and say "it doesn't matter". Then what's the point to begin with?

Well no, I've thought of karma as a metaphor for "justice" if you will(non-existent force), but I got a bit confused when I discussed it with Fatpanda when he said he believed all things mentioned above(which require supernatural intervention). I was just curios if you did as well.

You have to let loose all those words and definitions. karma is karma. Stop trying to push it into "metaphor", "force", "superstitious", "god". This is western thinking, and it fails to describe karma.

[lovemonkey]

You have to let loose all those words and definitions. karma is karma. Stop trying to push it into "metaphor", "force", "superstitious", "god". This is western thinking, and it fails to describe karma.

Alright, then I suppose there's not much more to discuss. Karma is nothing and at the same time everything?

[DK II]

Alright, then I suppose there's not much more to discuss. Karma is nothing and at the same time everything?

somehow, yes.

It's there, but you don't have to think about it, as it is the basic of life. It's connected to the four noble truths i wrote above.

[Deicide]

somehow, yes.

It's there, but you don't have to think about it, as it is the basic of life. It's connected to the four noble truths i wrote above.

The Four Noble truths are nice but in practice virtually impossible to live by. Anyone living a normal life does NOT.