Police State - Official Thread

[Agnostic007]

It's not a body cavity search. She didn't stick her finger up an anus or a vagina. That part of the claim will likely fall off. But it is intrusive and it is beyond reasonable . When I worked the streets it was common knowledge crack dealers often times kept their stash in a baggie either stuffed in the crack of their butts or under their balls. I always figured if that's where they are keeping it, they win. It wasn't important enough for me to lower myself to the level of sticking my hands down someones pants to find the dope. If they got arrested then a cavity search would be done at the jail intake upon request    

[Agnostic007]

Dude... Do you even hear yourself?

Of course the chick stuck her finger down her pants like that not to stick it in her anus... I mean, who doesn't just want to get close.

Dude, did you even read my post? Baggie are often times shoved down butt cracks and under testicles. females carry them in their panties. More likely than a cavity search on the side of the rode, it was verifying there were no drugs hidden in those areas. Regardless, the act was in poor judgment, likely violated their policy and should be stopped. It is intrusive and in my opinion, highly offensive. 

[Agnostic007]

I did... it's a 1/2 agreement on your part.

You make it sound like it's "bad", but it's not what the people are saying it is... So it's not THAT bad.

Yes, exactly. It is bad, it is something that should be stopped, it's over the line.. but.. it's not that bad. Make sense?

[avxo]

It's not a body cavity search. She didn't stick her finger up an anus or a vagina.

How do you know where she stuck her finger up into?

[Skip8282]

That's why you are on THAT side of the blue line... See, regular people DO see it as THAT BAD.

How much of this shit is do the courts as well I wonder?  I mean, when a cop can just claim someone is 'acting weird' without having any clue what their normally like, and justify searching over something that flimsy.....

Nuckin Futz

[Agnostic007]

How much of this shit is do the courts as well I wonder?  I mean, when a cop can just claim someone is 'acting weird' without having any clue what their normally like, and justify searching over something that flimsy.....

Nuckin Futz

acting weird is a sucky articulation of the circumstances. Not an acceptable standard for sure. To tell a partner who arrives on scene someone is acting weird is one thing, but if that ended up on a report or PC a judge would/should laugh it out of court. "Acting weird" might be short for "When I approached the drivers side I saw the driver was bent over, hands under the seat as if concealing something there. I smelled the odor of burned marijuana when the window rolled down and the drivers eyes were glassy and blooshot and she fumbled with her license and slurred her speach." when talking to your partner, but thats about it.     

[Skip8282]

Yeah and that's uncomfortable either way.

You automatically make it nefarious to start with reaching under the seat "as if to conceal something".

[Agnostic007]

His paranoia does not equate to sound logic.

If you are so paranoid as to constantly think someone is hiding someone, can you imagine how trigger happy you can get?

Fortunatley you guys don't depend on common sense and good judgement to live. So you'll probably do fine. For those of us who do, you won't live long if you assume someone reaching under the seat as you approach the car is hiding a playboy. If you have a drivers license, and you haven't figured out all by your little lonesome that it is a bad idea to start reaching under things when a cop is walking up, then shame on you.

[Skip8282]

Fortunatley you guys don't depend on common sense and good judgement to live. So you'll probably do fine. For those of us who do, you won't live long if you assume someone reaching under the seat as you approach the car is hiding a playboy. If you have a drivers license, and you haven't figured out all by your little lonesome that it is a bad idea to start reaching under things when a cop is walking up, then shame on you.

See...this is the type of general stupidity you bring to the discussion.

Considering that FAR more people will die in car accidents then cops getting killed on traffic stops...you can drop portraying yourself as some brave, heroic icon because a SMALL amount of traffic stops result in life threatening danger.


Since the issue I was referring to went well over your head...it's that any action can be made to sound as though a person is a dangerous criminal and a search is justified. 

So, presumably a court system which is supposed to protect me from people like you (dumb, dishonest, egotistical, power happy) seems to actually encourage your behavior. 

In other words, I'm forced to wonder if what constitutes reasonable suspicion and probable cause needs to be reevaluated or more stringtly applied, along with greater checks and balances, by the courts.

Simple enough?

[Soul Crusher]

Until cops and da are held personally responsible nothing will change.




[


quote author=Skip8282 link=topic=329944.msg6510260#msg6510260 date=1356539004]


See...this is the type of general stupidity you bring to the discussion.

Considering that FAR more people will die in car accidents then cops getting killed on traffic stops...you can drop portraying yourself as some brave, heroic icon because a SMALL amount of traffic stops result in life threatening danger.


Since the issue I was referring to went well over your head...it's that any action can be made to sound as though a person is a dangerous criminal and a search is justified. 

So, presumably a court system which is supposed to protect me from people like you (dumb, dishonest, egotistical, power happy) seems to actually encourage your behavior. 

In other words, I'm forced to wonder if what constitutes reasonable suspicion and probable cause needs to be reevaluated or more stringtly applied, along with greater checks and balances, by the courts.

Simple enough?


[/quote]

[Agnostic007]

See...this is the type of general stupidity you bring to the discussion.

Considering that FAR more people will die in car accidents then cops getting killed on traffic stops...you can drop portraying yourself as some brave, heroic icon because a SMALL amount of traffic stops result in life threatening danger.


Since the issue I was referring to went well over your head...it's that any action can be made to sound as though a person is a dangerous criminal and a search is justified. 

So, presumably a court system which is supposed to protect me from people like you (dumb, dishonest, egotistical, power happy) seems to actually encourage your behavior. 

In other words, I'm forced to wonder if what constitutes reasonable suspicion and probable cause needs to be reevaluated or more stringtly applied, along with greater checks and balances, by the courts.

Simple enough?

See this is the type of stupid responses you bring to the discussion...

The original response of mine addressed the paranoia allegation. It is NOT paranoia to be concerned when someone is reaching under a car seat. That you or anyone thinks being concerned about that just shows the utter lack of knowledge you have about the job.

[Jack T. Cross]

See this is the type of stupid responses you bring to the discussion...

The original response of mine addressed the paranoia allegation. It is NOT paranoia to be concerned when someone is reaching under a car seat. That you or anyone thinks being concerned about that just shows the utter lack of knowledge you have about the job.

You have to be aware of how a person is using his or her hands at all times, because you don't want a weapon to be used against you.  It begins and ends with that.

Let me ask if you've ever given much thought to why cops are so widely despised and distrusted.

[Skip8282]

Until cops and da are held personally responsible nothing will change.




[


quote author=Skip8282 link=topic=329944.msg6510260#msg6510260 date=1356539004]


See...this is the type of general stupidity you bring to the discussion.

Considering that FAR more people will die in car accidents then cops getting killed on traffic stops...you can drop portraying yourself as some brave, heroic icon because a SMALL amount of traffic stops result in life threatening danger.


Since the issue I was referring to went well over your head...it's that any action can be made to sound as though a person is a dangerous criminal and a search is justified. 

So, presumably a court system which is supposed to protect me from people like you (dumb, dishonest, egotistical, power happy) seems to actually encourage your behavior. 

In other words, I'm forced to wonder if what constitutes reasonable suspicion and probable cause needs to be reevaluated or more stringtly applied, along with greater checks and balances, by the courts.

Simple enough?

Agreed but they should have a limited immunity so that everyone and anyone can't just keep tying them up with nonsense.

A good example is when the cop arrested the firefighter for not moving the truck.  Jury found for the firefighter and I think it was like 25k against the cop or so?

Cop should've had to pay that as he was way out of line.

[Skip8282]

See this is the type of stupid responses you bring to the discussion...

The original response of mine addressed the paranoia allegation. It is NOT paranoia to be concerned when someone is reaching under a car seat. That you or anyone thinks being concerned about that just shows the utter lack of knowledge you have about the job.

Please, drop the pathetic backtracking spin.

This whole discussion has been focused on the court's interpretation of what cops are claiming so that they can search people.

I would doubt even Tu thinks you shouldn't be 'concerned' or act cautiously in those situations.  When you start embellishing, I think it definitely comes off as paranoid.



As for the danger you claim,

Let's see, 50 officers died in 2012 due to traffic fatalities, and I don't know if that's incidental to criminal activities...or some may be traffic accident related.  Let's assume all 127 cops who died in 2012 was due to traffic stops.  I'm using NLEO figures.

Out of how many millions of traffic stops each year?


So the probability of you getting hurt is .0000000 something?

Obviously it's dangerous (127 officers), but that doesn't change the fact that your words and your claims are not beyond reproach. 

[freespirit]

.

[avxo]

Of course I'm not saying you should not be cautious... That's ridiculous.

But if you look at the numbers, his concern is paranoia... Don't we have more people killed in plane crashes?

Maybe we should all just stop flying? Or wait... How many people are killed walking down the street every year?

Stop walking?

It's not about caution... It's about the paranoia and the far reaching reasons that cops use to claim someone is "acting suspicious".

It's all sad really.

I will again point out that "acting suspicious" generally means jackshit.  Cops must have at least reasonable suspicion to do most anything, and they cannot have that without specific, articulable facts to rationally justify that suspicion. "Acting weird", "funny" or even "suspicious" don't meet that standard. Reaching under a seat certainly qualifies, at least according to the only authorities that matter: the Courts.

Generally speaking, I think it's stupid to make any sudden moves around cops; their work environment is stressful, and most are stretched to taut that even an accidental sneeze can escalate rapidly and end badly. Add to the mix that many of them tend to be people who enjoy being in positions of authority over others and yeah... Not a good combo.

[Soul Crusher]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/12/26/hazel-crest-cops-shoot-kill-dog-during-search-for-fugitive


Makes me sick. 

[Agnostic007]

Please, drop the pathetic backtracking spin.

This whole discussion has been focused on the court's interpretation of what cops are claiming so that they can search people.

I would doubt even Tu thinks you shouldn't be 'concerned' or act cautiously in those situations.  When you start embellishing, I think it definitely comes off as paranoid.



As for the danger you claim,

Let's see, 50 officers died in 2012 due to traffic fatalities, and I don't know if that's incidental to criminal activities...or some may be traffic accident related.  Let's assume all 127 cops who died in 2012 was due to traffic stops.  I'm using NLEO figures.

Out of how many millions of traffic stops each year?


So the probability of you getting hurt is .0000000 something?

Obviously it's dangerous (127 officers), but that doesn't change the fact that your words and your claims are not beyond reproach. 

Just got this email this morning...

All,

Corporal Jimmie Norman, age 53, of the Bellaire Police Department was shot and killed by a suspect at the end of a vehicle pursuit on the morning of Christmas Eve.  Corporal Norman, a 24-year veteran of the Bellaire Police Department, was married with two children and remembered as an officer who “had a big heart.”
Arrangements are as follows:
Visitation
Friday, December 28, 2012
3:00 pm-7:00 pm

Bellaire Central Baptist Church
7115 Mapleridge Street
Bellaire, Texas 77401

Funeral
Saturday, December 29, 2012,
2:00 pm

Houston's First Baptist Church
7401 Katy Freeway
Houston, Texas (at IH610)
The family requests donations be made to the Peace Officers Memorial Foundation, 400 West 14th St. Austin, Texas 78701.
 All sworn personnel shall display their Tribute of Mourning Ribbon until sunset on the day of interment.

[Agnostic007]

acting weird is a sucky articulation of the circumstances. Not an acceptable standard for sure. To tell a partner who arrives on scene someone is acting weird is one thing, but if that ended up on a report or PC a judge would/should laugh it out of court. "Acting weird" might be short for "When I approached the drivers side I saw the driver was bent over, hands under the seat as if concealing something there. I smelled the odor of burned marijuana when the window rolled down and the drivers eyes were glassy and blooshot and she fumbled with her license and slurred her speach." when talking to your partner, but thats about it.     

Even when I agree with you Skip, you argue. Have you wondered why that is?

[Soul Crusher]

When I get pulled over - two hands on the wheel , respectful, if I have to grab something I tell the officer first etc. 

Nothing to be gained by starting a confrontation and it makes it easier to get the item tossed later on.

[Agnostic007]

You have to be aware of how a person is using his or her hands at all times, because you don't want a weapon to be used against you.  It begins and ends with that.

Let me ask if you've ever given much thought to why cops are so widely despised and distrusted.

Jack, the question is loaded to a certain extent. I don't agree they are widely despised and distrusted. I've seen local polls that back me up. I'd be living in a dream world if I wasn't aware that there are people that despise and distrust the police. In my opinion, some of them have reason to feel that way because of personal experiences they have had. When I was 16 I had a horrible experience with a small town police department that disgusted me. Completely unprofessional and abusive. Then there are those who have grown up in a culture that distrusts and hates police, and while they have no personal experience one way or the other, they hate the police. Then there are people wired to dislike authority of any kind. Parents, police, teachers, government etc. Not a thing you can do to change their minds.

I don't think the police did themselves any favors over the last 50 yrs as far as building trust. It seems everytime we take a step foward, some moron with a badge sets up back 10 yrs.

What are your thoughts on it?

[Agnostic007]

When I get pulled over - two hands on the wheel , respectful, if I have to grab something I tell the officer first etc. 

Nothing to be gained by starting a confrontation and it makes it easier to get the item tossed later on.

I'm the same way.. I don't see a reason to make him or her any more nervous/cautious than they should already be.

[Soul Crusher]

I'm the same way.. I don't see a reason to make him or her any more nervous/cautious than they should already be.

If someone is a rude arrogant prick and causes a confrontation te officer will remember and force the matter trial.  It is what it is and everyone sort of has a role to play.

[Shockwave]

See this is the type of stupid responses you bring to the discussion...

The original response of mine addressed the paranoia allegation. It is NOT paranoia to be concerned when someone is reaching under a car seat. That you or anyone thinks being concerned about that just shows the utter lack of knowledge you have about the job.

STOP TRYING TO CAVITY SEARCH ME JUST BECAUSE I REACH INTO MY GLOVE BOX TO HAVE MY REGISTRATION AND PROOF OF INSURANCE READY FOR YOU!

[Agnostic007]

STOP TRYING TO CAVITY SEARCH ME JUST BECAUSE I REACH INTO MY GLOVE BOX TO HAVE MY REGISTRATION AND PROOF OF INSURANCE READY FOR YOU!

You say that now.... but at 1am, on a dark road after you've had a few drinks, I'm sure it's a different story