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Author Topic: Push press vs military press / dumbell press  (Read 4247 times)
Domthemilky
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« on: January 04, 2012, 07:35:31 AM »

Which is more effective in the long run for developing shoulder strength and size? I have always found that push press helps bring up my shoulders but more importantly helps increase lockout strength so I can lift heavier on other pressing exercises. Do push presses with controlled negatives induce shoulder hypertrophy? It's very hard to get stronger with military pressing when you get to around bodyweight but then again I always do military press standing never seated.

As an example, which would be more effective; doing 8 hard reps with 60 kg with military press or doing 10 reps with 100 kg performing a push press with slow negatives?
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 10:09:08 AM »

serge nubret used 80 to 100 lbs ffor military presses so if your goal is  muscle developement......


* serge nub.jpg (28.09 KB, 399x621 - viewed 1710 times.)
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 12:42:16 PM »

Which is more effective in the long run for developing shoulder strength and size? I have always found that push press helps bring up my shoulders but more importantly helps increase lockout strength so I can lift heavier on other pressing exercises. Do push presses with controlled negatives induce shoulder hypertrophy? It's very hard to get stronger with military pressing when you get to around bodyweight but then again I always do military press standing never seated.

As an example, which would be more effective; doing 8 hard reps with 60 kg with military press or doing 10 reps with 100 kg performing a push press with slow negatives?

why limit your self to one or the other, do your last set of military's as a heavy push press

you wont get any big numbers up until you do them seated tho
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 02:29:04 PM »

I have always liked the standing military presses over the push presses. I don't think there is a better excercise out there for delt development. Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 02:37:21 PM »

why limit your self to one or the other, do your last set of military's as a heavy push press

you wont get any big numbers up until you do them seated tho

why do you think that?
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 03:05:02 PM »

why do you think that?
you can brace yourself against the back of the seat and arch creating more of a high incline angle to the exercise and throw some upper chest into it, the increased stability and leverage equals bigger weights.
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 05:10:24 PM »

[quote author=QuakerOats link=topic=4
you can brace yourself against the back of the seat and arch creating more of a high incline angle to the exercise and throw some upper chest into it, the increased stability and leverage equals bigger weights.
[/quote]

ok but a military press is from behind the neck so while arching your chest forward you compress your mid and lower back, the mid back spine having limited flexibility. I can see its worth as having a spring momentup to push that weight up but then its the back erector muscles that do much of the work.
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 06:56:38 PM »

The Push press is where the bar is resting on the heals of the hand, with the thumbs back where the fingers are (quite a few heavy benchers prefer this grip also). This allows the bar to be more inline with the forearms, giving better leverage/power and "push" to the movement. There will be a slight knee kick/dip to begin the movement. Can use quite a bit more weight in the Push press than the standard military/front press.

The Military press is where the bar is griped (thumbs aroung the bar) and  the bar resting on the palms of the hands, offsetting the direct leverage/power a bit. Usually there is a slight bend in the knees to begin the press. The Military press is not started from behind the neck. That is another exercise called the press behind the neck or behind the neck press  (take youe pick of either name to call it). The original idea of the military press was to have both heels together, locked knees and the back ramrod straight. That was considered being done in a military manner (by the military handbood).

In my experience (take it for what that may be worth...if anything) the Push press  (like it's brother, the jerk press) is one of the most effected ways to build thick shoulder mass, and in a somewhat shorter period of time. Can also effect the traps/upper pecs/triceps.. Very heavy weight can be "pushed' overhead, sooner than you think. You should be buying larger size shirts if approaching, with serious intent, the Push press.

Sitting , while overhead pressing, is more suitable to the military/front press it's self. Because the body English from the knees/hips is taken away.  If you are using one of what may be called shoulder/pressing benches, you are really doing a high angle incline press. If you are doing overhead presses with a 90 degree angle sit down bench, then you are doing a real overhead press, influencing the shoulders more directly.

DB presses are also a superior movement for the whole shoulder girdle. Suggest them being done standing and one arm at a time, for a better focus on this exercise. Bracing the free arm, while overhead pressing, seems to help with this exercise greatly.

Training for partial reps (prefered on a PR), in any form of overhead pressing, can build exceptional shoulder and give unbelieviable results in size and power to some. Good Luck..

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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 07:13:51 PM »

..
 ( The Military press is not started from behind the neck. That is another exercise called the press behind the neck or behind the neck press  (take youe pick of either name to call it). The original idea of the military press was to have both heels together, locked knees and the back ramrod straight. That was considered being done in a military manner (by the military handbood).

...



thanks for that mate, will have to relect and practice on
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2012, 05:36:40 AM »

serge nubret used 80 to 100 lbs ffor military presses so if your goal is  muscle developement......

ah.... it must be the best exercise then!!!!!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 02:42:27 AM »

why limit your self to one or the other, do your last set of military's as a heavy push press


  agreed Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 06:09:53 AM »

why do you think that?

ive never seen anyone in any gym ive frequented using more then 2 plates per side, ever... i know the olympic lifting type gyms would piss on this, but im talking every day run of the mill gyms and trainees

i have seen plenty use much more seated with a bb or much much more in the smith, with alot stricter/smoother reps than they could standing

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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2012, 06:38:09 AM »

ive never seen anyone in any gym ive frequented using more then 2 plates per side, ever... i know the olympic lifting type gyms would piss on this, but im talking every day run of the mill gyms and trainees

i have seen plenty use much more seated with a bb or much much more in the smith, with alot stricter/smoother reps than they could standing



undoubtedly but particularly in the case of the smith machine where is the work being done?
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2012, 06:51:13 AM »

that depends on the trainee.......... if he wants to actualy build his delts he'll be lowering under control, and concentrating on his delts... if he's a knob he'll force his back against the seat and force out reps in any fashion
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 02:14:27 PM »

Any DB overhead movement is gonna be hard as shit to stabilize and set up, dont even try...stick to barbell or even smiths for such a movement.  And no, I am not a machinehead, its just this particular one, specially if you like to train heavy.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 05:07:09 PM »

Several weeks ago I started doing standing db shoulder presses. I have always done them seated in the past, but my gym got rid of the shoulder press bench I always  used to use.

I was shocked how comfortable the movement is and how much more you feel it in your delts. I also love the standing barbell presses, and now I dont think I will ever go back to seated overhead pressing.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 05:40:30 PM »

Several weeks ago I started doing standing db shoulder presses. I have always done them seated in the past, but my gym got rid of the shoulder press bench I always  used to use.

I was shocked how comfortable the movement is and how much more you feel it in your delts. I also love the standing barbell presses, and now I dont think I will ever go back to seated overhead pressing.

and gets the abs working as well
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 05:56:33 PM »

and gets the abs working as well
It doesnt, or at least not what you seem to imply, its isometric contractions for stabilization, trainiing abdominals for dynamic stimulii (ie, growth, strength, etc) takes flexion of the lumbar area, which is not happening in a pressing movement of this type.
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 06:05:29 PM »

It doesnt, or at least not what you seem to imply, its isometric contractions for stabilization, trainiing abdominals for dynamic stimulii (ie, growth, strength, etc) takes flexion of the lumbar area, which is not happening in a pressing movement of this type.

you are right, it doesnt get them to grow but almost any exercise that calls them to attention whither statically or dynamically does them good. Many people spend so much of their daily lives hunched forward that the abdominal muscles get relieved of much of their function 
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 07:01:56 PM »

It doesnt, or at least not what you seem to imply, its isometric contractions for stabilization, trainiing abdominals for dynamic stimulii (ie, growth, strength, etc) takes flexion of the lumbar area, which is not happening in a pressing movement of this type.
Are you saying that incorporating the abs to stabilize a couple hundred+ pounds overhead while you press it is not gowing to have any effect on them? I dunno, after some heavy military presses and some push presses I can sure feel my abs the next day.....

Several weeks ago I started doing standing db shoulder presses. I have always done them seated in the past, but my gym got rid of the shoulder press bench I always  used to use.

I was shocked how comfortable the movement is and how much more you feel it in your delts. I also love the standing barbell presses, and now I dont think I will ever go back to seated overhead pressing.
I rarely do overhead pressing seated, db's or barbells, almost always standing. Strict military press is a favorite.
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 07:35:17 AM »

Are you saying that incorporating the abs to stabilize a couple hundred+ pounds overhead while you press it is not gowing to have any effect on them? I dunno, after some heavy military presses and some push presses I can sure feel my abs the next day.....
I rarely do overhead pressing seated, db's or barbells, almost always standing. Strict military press is a favorite.

Any of the bodybuilding effects you want, either stronger muscle fibers or bigger, yes thats exactly how it is.  If the case is that youre feeling your abs its not because they are getting "bigger", they were just isometrically trained hence, they are better at holding weight at above your head in a pushing movement, which you may or may not feel (it may also be bad positioning).  That is the only advantage of isometric training, strengthening the muscle in the position it is stimulated, aka, you will not get stronger abs for stabilizing squats, thats why squatting, OHPing, etc, are NOT abs exercises.

What Im trying to say is that isometrical training is not what people think it is, squats and ohps will not get you stronger abs and the stimulii is different to the one inflicted to the delts in the case of OHP and its not really useful, you need to work your abs and general core dinamically to avoid further imbalancesk and possible injuries.

Also, feeling a muscle the day after is not a measure of good or bad work.
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 10:11:35 AM »

Funny. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2012, 10:52:37 AM »

Any of the bodybuilding effects you want, either stronger muscle fibers or bigger, yes thats exactly how it is.  If the case is that youre feeling your abs its not because they are getting "bigger", they were just isometrically trained hence, they are better at holding weight at above your head in a pushing movement, which you may or may not feel (it may also be bad positioning).  That is the only advantage of isometric training, strengthening the muscle in the position it is stimulated, aka, you will not get stronger abs for stabilizing squats, thats why squatting, OHPing, etc, are NOT abs exercises.

What Im trying to say is that isometrical training is not what people think it is, squats and ohps will not get you stronger abs and the stimulii is different to the one inflicted to the delts in the case of OHP and its not really useful, you need to work your abs and general core dinamically to avoid further imbalancesk and possible injuries.

Also, feeling a muscle the day after is not a measure of good or bad work.


Well since the main function of the abdominals is to stabilize and efficiently transfer power in heavy compound movements I would say that Isometric strength plays an important role when it comes to abs. And since movements like the overhead press, squats, deadlifts, rows require the abdominals to perform a alot of work it's safe to say that there is going to be some strength adaptions there. As far as size is concerned, the abs don't have that much size potential. You can certaintly develop them, but the overall size and thickness will get topped out fairly quickly.

Probably the most challenging direct ab excercise out there is the abwheel roll out ( on your feet not knees ), the majority of the movement the abs are used as stabilizers.
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 10:57:29 AM »

I rarely work abs, but when I do, I use that stupid wheel. Angry
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 12:16:30 PM »

Well since the main function of the abdominals is to stabilize and efficiently transfer power in heavy compound movements I would say that Isometric strength plays an important role when it comes to abs. And since movements like the overhead press, squats, deadlifts, rows require the abdominals to perform a alot of work it's safe to say that there is going to be some strength adaptions there. As far as size is concerned, the abs don't have that much size potential. You can certaintly develop them, but the overall size and thickness will get topped out fairly quickly.

Probably the most challenging direct ab excercise out there is the abwheel roll out ( on your feet not knees ), the majority of the movement the abs are used as stabilizers.


It does play a role, isometrically, not dinamically, meaning, you need decent core to stabilizae big weights, but that is not enough if you want stronger over all abs etc.  Some strength adaptations, yes, ONLY at the angle of force in which it was isometrically stimulated, that is the big draw back of isometric contractions.

And yes, abs grow little, but strength wise youre far better off in dynamic contractions, ie, lumbar flexion.
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