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Author Topic: To Christians: Since he doesn`t worship Jesus Romney is going to hell correct?  (Read 7505 times)
bigbobs
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« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2012, 01:06:13 PM »

John 14:1-6
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.

Had to first stop here and point out that the second phrase in the quote clearly tells me Jesus is not God, as he's differentiating himself by saying believe "also" in me.  I was looking for evidence for your claim not evidence counter to your claim Smiley
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bigbobs
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« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2012, 01:17:06 PM »

Seriously? did you not read my post above? Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

You guys really need to read your Bible here, you appear as someone who has never picked up the Bible especially when you say Jesus never claimed to be God, of course he did, not only he did but 10 times, I will make a thread soon in the religious section

I read the verse, which is why I asked for scriptural evidence. Please bold where he says he is God in that verse
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« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2012, 01:19:32 PM »

Had to first stop here and point out that the second phrase in the quote clearly tells me Jesus is not God, as he's differentiating himself by saying believe "also" in me.  I was looking for evidence for your claim not evidence counter to your claim Smiley

You are thinking inside the box and giving spiritual matters restrictions, God is God outside of space time and matter something impossible to the human brain and Jesus is God as a man inside the domain of space, time and matter. So for you to think Jesus and God can not be one because they are 2 separate beings you are putting God inside of time. So while Jesus is Jesus he is also God outside of time so it is not like God is playing 2 roles at the same time cause he is outside of time, stop putting God in a little box.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2012, 01:20:25 PM »

'Christian' is a modern word associated with Jesus, 1 definition is following his teaching, of course what else would you call someone who follows his teachings but theologians accept that the real meaning behind behind a Christian is to accept Jesus as your saviour, which includes him dying and resurrecting, this is a fact. You are always trying to twist a man made terminology to fit your argument? lol but that is not how things work my friend.

Lol you're accusing me of using "man made terminology" when your post here needs to argue "theologists accept the real meaning...". Theologins are men who have their own interpretations.
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Onetimehard
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« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2012, 01:23:38 PM »

I read the verse, which is why I asked for scriptural evidence. Please bold where he says he is God in that verse
How can I bold the impossible, he does not say he is God in that verse, nor did anyone claim he said he was God in that verse.
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« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2012, 01:26:30 PM »

Lol you're accusing me of using "man made terminology" when your post here needs to argue "theologists accept the real meaning...". Theologins are men who have their own interpretations.
I am using theologians as an example of what the general consensus are on what it means to be a Christian and explaining it to you cause you have a misconception of what it means to be a Christian, a self made perception that is inaccurate
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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2012, 01:27:04 PM »

Had to first stop here and point out that the second phrase in the quote clearly tells me Jesus is not God, as he's differentiating himself by saying believe "also" in me.  I was looking for evidence for your claim not evidence counter to your claim Smiley


Speaking of encounters, I've encountered the risen Christ....the Holy Spirit is made manifest in my life daily.   Your verse interpretation is simply based on a lack of relationship with the risen Lord.  It's not that you're ignorant, you just don't know God on a personal level; hence no personal, tangible proof.  The bible is the living word of God made evident to believers.....no belief in Christ, then all you have is flat text.
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« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2012, 01:29:26 PM »

Just provided scripture 2-3 posts up.

Yes you did provide scripture no doubting that, but my request was that you provide scripture saying that I will go to hell for not believing in Jesus. That you have not done.
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »

I am using theologians as an example of what the general consensus are on what it means to be a Christian and explaining it to you cause you have a misconception of what it means to be a Christian, a self made perception that is inaccurate

Its not just my self made perceptions. Unitarian Christians identify themselves as christian as well, but do not believe Jesus is God.

Instead of letting the next predictable exchange ensue I'll summarize it here:

You: "Unitarians are wrong, I am right."
Me: "Provide scriptural evidence?"
You "You won't find Jesus claiming to be God" or will provide ambigious scripture which can be interpreted either way.
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2012, 01:38:07 PM »

Yes you did provide scripture no doubting that, but my request was that you provide scripture saying that I will go to hell for not believing in Jesus. That you have not done.

Oh so again, you want a verse of scripture written exactly as you want it written, not in the many, many forms it is already written which means the same thing.  And if I don't produce your specific version of the scription the concept is thrown out right?

You and ahmed have played this little game before.  I produce a scripture and y'all waved it off with "this isn't what I said".......it means the same thing of course.....but "this isn't what I said I wanted scripture to say."
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« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2012, 01:40:05 PM »

Speaking of encounters, I've encountered the risen Christ....the Holy Spirit is made manifest in my life daily.   Your verse interpretation is simply based on a lack of relationship with the risen Lord.  It's not that you're ignorant, you just don't know God on a personal level; hence no personal, tangible proof.  The bible is the living word of God made evident to believers.....no belief in Christ, then all you have is flat text.

So I take it that's a "no" to my original question, asking for scriptural support for your belief that anyone who does not believe Jesus is God will go to hell (such as myself, Romney, Muslims and Unitarian Christians."
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« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2012, 01:41:59 PM »

So I take it that's a "no" to my original question, asking for scriptural support for your belief that anyone who does not believe Jesus is God will go to hell (such as myself, Romney, Muslims and Unitarian Christians."

You just don't understand what I'm saying, but that's ok.....I can't expect you to understand until you desire to truly understand yourself. 
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« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2012, 01:42:50 PM »

Oh so again, you want a verse of scripture written exactly as you want it written, not in the many, many forms it is already written which means the same thing.  

There aren't a lot of possible forms to state that one goes to Hell for not believing Jesus is God. The few you post are up for interpretation because they don't clearly sstate something which is so fundamental to your interpretation of Christianity.
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« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2012, 01:45:41 PM »

You just don't understand what I'm saying, but that's ok.....I can't expect you to understand until you desire to truly understand yourself. 

Now the strategy of responding to rational questions with non-rational emotional arguments.  "Can't provide the scripture, you just have to have faith to understand it"
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« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2012, 01:50:02 PM »

Its not just my self made perceptions. Unitarian Christians identify themselves as christian as well, but do not believe Jesus is God.

Instead of letting the next predictable exchange ensue I'll summarize it here:

You: "Unitarians are wrong, I am right."
Me: "Provide scriptural evidence?"
You "You won't find Jesus claiming to be God" or will provide ambigious scripture which can be interpreted either way.
Listen, you are always adding things I did not say, Not all Christian believe in the Holy trinity, most do, but I think the ones that don't but still believe in Jesus dying for their sins and the resurrection are saved.

The scripture say Jesus is God many times, Jesus says he is God too, if you think he did not you have not read the Bible plain and simple. What do you think Emmanuel means, "God with us"
 
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« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2012, 01:55:42 PM »

Now the strategy of responding to rational questions with non-rational emotional arguments.  "Can't provide the scripture, you just have to have faith to understand it"

Oh certainly having faith is crucial, but what I'm speaking of in this instance is experiencing the Holy Spirit in a tangible way.  Truly feeling the divine presence of God....sometimes so thick and enveloping it's amazing...that's what I'm saying.   Ignoring emotional appeals is par for the course for nonbelievers, but that's because the experential proof is only available to believers.  Wanna experience the risen God? Then you have to believe and confess with your mouth...then will you understand what I'm saying.   But, if you wanna wave it off with a "Bah....emotional appeals....meaningless.. ..I've got em on the run" approach....then so be it.  It's not my soul at stake, it's yours.
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« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2012, 01:57:29 PM »

Oh certainly having faith is crucial, but what I'm speaking of in this instance is experiencing the Holy Spirit in a tangible way.  Truly feeling the divine presence of God....sometimes so thick and enveloping it's amazing...that's what I'm saying.   Ignoring emotional appeals is par for the course for nonbelievers, but that's because the experential proof is only available to believers.  Wanna experience the risen God? Then you have to believe and confess with your mouth...then will you understand what I'm saying.   But, if you wanna wave it off with a "Bah....emotional appeals....meaningless.. ..I've got em on the run" approach....then so be it.  It's not my soul at stake, it's yours.
They won't get it until they experience something nearly impossible to describe.
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« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2012, 02:00:19 PM »

I'll play ref.... post the scripture... I'll give a ruling ;-)
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« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2012, 02:06:58 PM »

I'll play ref.... post the scripture... I'll give a ruling ;-)

Did you see the scriptures above that onetimehard and man of steel posted?  Does either tell you that if you don't believe Jesus is God you are going to hell?
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« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2012, 02:09:41 PM »

Listen, you are always adding things I did not say, Not all Christian believe in the Holy trinity, most do, but I think the ones that don't but still believe in Jesus dying for their sins and the resurrection are saved.

The scripture say Jesus is God many times, Jesus says he is God too, if you think he did not you have not read the Bible plain and simple. What do you think Emmanuel means, "God with us"
 

Again, please provide proof of the bolded verse. 
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« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2012, 02:10:13 PM »

I'll play ref.... post the scripture... I'll give a ruling ;-)
Are you sure you are up to the task OK here goes

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.


John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.


Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”


Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”


John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,


John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”


John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.


John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”


Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)


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« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2012, 02:11:21 PM »

Oh certainly having faith is crucial, but what I'm speaking of in this instance is experiencing the Holy Spirit in a tangible way.  Truly feeling the divine presence of God....sometimes so thick and enveloping it's amazing...that's what I'm saying.   Ignoring emotional appeals is par for the course for nonbelievers, but that's because the experential proof is only available to believers.  Wanna experience the risen God? Then you have to believe and confess with your mouth...then will you understand what I'm saying.   But, if you wanna wave it off with a "Bah....emotional appeals....meaningless.. ..I've got em on the run" approach....then so be it.  It's not my soul at stake, it's yours.

I could also answer questions about Islam with "You wont get it unless you become Muslim first, then it will make sense" but of course that would do nearly nothing to attract anyone to my religion.
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« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2012, 02:16:38 PM »

Are you sure you are up to the task OK here goes

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.


John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.


Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”


Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”


John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,


John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”


John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.


John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”


Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)




I'll get to work on those.. The Emmanuel scripture we can dismiss out of hand... His name was Jesus, they called him Jesus.
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« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2012, 02:16:51 PM »

I could also answer questions about Islam with "You wont get it unless you become Muslim first, then it will make sense" but of course that would do nearly nothing to attract anyone to my religion.

A Muslim and Allah is not even comparable to a Christian and God.....one impersonal, one personal.  Nothing indwells the Muslim.  The Holy Spirit indwells the Christian.
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« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.


1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.


Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ


Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”


Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.


Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”


Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
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