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Who do you think was able to generate the greatest intensity and why? Any witnesses?
Personally I don't think Mentzer is anywhere close to Arnold training wise.
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Who do you think was able to generate the greatest intensity and why? Any witnesses?
Personally I don't think Mentzer is anywhere close to Arnold training wise.
Alex, Arnold tried to train heavy duty style in Deland, Florida with Arthur Jones. He couldn't hack it. Franco was said to have thrived under it.
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Alex, Arnold tried to train heavy duty style in Deland, Florida with Arthur Jones. He couldn't hack it. Franco was said to have thrived under it.
Maybe that is why Franco was so small compared to Arnold?
Besides I really doubt Arnold couldn't keep up... ::)
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Alex, Arnold tried to train heavy duty style in Deland, Florida with Arthur Jones. He couldn't hack it. Franco was said to have thrived under it.
hahahahaha what a puss.
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Alexxx's development is directly attributable to the Schwarzenegger 8-hour plan.. :-\
I trained for 2 hours a day every body part three times a week for this past month.. ::)
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Here's some sample HIT videos. Although Mike is old and sick in these videos (being filmed soon before his death), this is the style in which he trained.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=109977.375
I would LOVE to see Arnold do 10 sets of leg presses with THAT INTENSITY!!!!
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And here Arnold is seen doing concentration curls, abandoning the set 10 reps shy of failure.
::)
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And here Arnold is seen doing concentration curls, abandoning the set 10 reps shy of failure.
::)
Please! You think intensity is only defined by the amout of second you hold the weight?
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And here Arnold is seen doing concentration curls, abandoning the set 10 reps shy of failure.
::)
Maybe he didn't realize that he was supposed to keep going? ;D
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intensity is not important
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Please! You think intensity is only defined by the amout of second you hold the weight?
Yes, since slowing the speed of your reps is only one way to increase the intensity of your training.
While on HIT, I use the following intensity techniques: slow reps, forced reps, positive failure, static failure, negative failure, pre-exhaust, ZERO rest inbetween sets.
You have no idea what level of difficulty this type of training is on. I really don't think 99% of people could do it, including you.
The only challenge with volume training is clearing your schedule for a 2 hour workout. It's not only easy but it's quite honestly a waste of time.
As Mentzer said, you can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. And it just so happens that it takes hard work to build muscle. If Arnold trained with HIT he would be doing 10 minute workouts like I do.
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intensity is not important
This guy positively reeks of wisdom.
Those Mentzer clips are misleading; there's no use of post-failure techniques there.
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This guy positively reeks of wisdom.
why would it be important? btw, saw that you now are a mod on the training board, i guess they prefer quantity posts over quality posts.
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why would it be important? btw, saw that you now are a mod on the training board, i guess they prefer quantity posts over quality posts.
If you're seriously asking that you should not be on a BB board.
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If you're seriously asking that you should not be on a BB board.
i take it you agree that it doesnt matter then. eod.
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Maybe he didn't realize that he was supposed to keep going? ;D
Even those Mentzer videos are misleading, because there are no post-failure reps involved there.
I really can't imagine what motivated him to drop the weight. Me and my training partner carry a set until not we, but our bodies decide when to stop. I can't just end a set on my first grunt or burning sensation. I have to go and go until I've reached absolute failure!!
Whenever I finish a set I relfect on it and rate my effort and intensity. If I believe I could have done one more seemingly impossible rep I will feel dissappointed.
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Yes, since slowing the speed of your reps is only one way to increase the intensity of your training.
While on HIT, I use the following intensity techniques: slow reps, forced reps, positive failure, static failure, negative failure, pre-exhaust, ZERO rest inbetween sets.
You have no idea what level of difficulty this type of training is on. I really don't think 99% of people could do it, including you.
The only challenge with volume training is clearing your schedule for a 2 hour workout. It's not only easy but it's quite honestly a waste of time.
As Mentzer said, you can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. And it just so happens that it takes hard work to build muscle. If Arnold trained with HIT he would be doing 10 minute workouts like I do.
Ok then what do you call these?
-forced reps
-isolation training
-negative repetitions
-forced negatives
-priority principle
-supersets
-staggered sets
-shocking principle
-stripping method
-isotension principle
-instinctive principle
-pre-exaust training
-running the rack
-I go/ you go
-flushing method
-partial reps
-multi-exercise sets
-one and a half method
-platoon system
-1-10system
-progressive workload
-coumpounding exercises
All of these are from Arnold's encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding so I think it is safe to say he used at least one of those methods during his lifetime. ::)
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why would it be important? btw, saw that you now are a mod on the training board, i guess they prefer quantity posts over quality posts.
Pumpster is one of the most knowledgable posters here. He's a true bodybuilder and doesn't just come here to just fuck around like most of the guys here on G&O.
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Ok then what do you call these?
-forced reps
-isolation training
-negative repetitions
-forced negatives
-priority principle
-supersets
-staggered sets
-shocking principle
-stripping method
-isotension principle
-instinctive principle
-pre-exaust training
-running the rack
-I go/ you go
-flushing method
-partial reps
-multi-exercise sets
-one and a half method
-platoon system
-1-10system
-progressive workload
-coumpounding exercises
All of these are from Arnold's encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding so I think it is safe to say he used at least one of those methods during his lifetime. ::)
He's serious then, doesn't know the difference.
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Pumpster is one of the most knowledgable posters here. He's a true bodybuilder and doesn't just come here to just f**k around like most of the guys here on G&O.
if he's a true bodybuilder where's his picture?
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True failure is impossible. Where your muscles cannot do another set. As long as you can contract it you can keep going. So it wouldn't be wise calling hit failure because after you fail with those weights and wait say 5 seconds you can do another rep. ;)
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Ok then what do you call these?
-forced reps
-isolation training
-negative repetitions
-forced negatives
-priority principle
-supersets
-staggered sets
-shocking principle
-stripping method
-isotension principle
-instinctive principle
-pre-exaust training
-running the rack
-I go/ you go
-flushing method
-partial reps
-multi-exercise sets
-one and a half method
-platoon system
-1-10system
-progressive workload
-coumpounding exercises
All of these are from Arnold's encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding so I think it is safe to say he used at least one of those methods during his lifetime. ::)
I'm sure Arnold had his intense workouts, but his training is still absolutely nothing compared to HIT.
HIT is something you wouldn't be able to understand until you try, I suppose.
And those intensity techniques I posted I employ during each and every set and workout I do. Except for exercises like squats and DL, of course.
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intensity techniques and going to failure is probably the worst things you can do in bodybuilding and should be avoided like the plague.
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True failure is impossible. Where your muscles cannot do another set. As long as you can contract it you can keep going. So it wouldn't be wise calling hit failure because after you fail with those weights and wait say 5 seconds you can do another rep. ;)
We're talking about absolute momentary failure. Absolute failure is failure on the positive (contraction), static (holding in peak contraction position), and negative (lowering). Once a set is carried to the point where all the functions of the skeletal muscle are impossible FOR THAT MOMENT, you have reached absolute momentary failure.
Most people don't even train to positive failure (which is the weakest functional lift of a muscle, and therefore don't even reach 1/3 of absolute failure.
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if he's a true bodybuilder where's his picture?
Where's yours?
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We're talking about absolute momentary failure. Absolute failure is failure on the positive (contraction), static (holding in peak contraction position), and negative (lowering). Once a set is carried to the point where all the functions of the skeletal muscle is impossible FOR THAT MOMENT, you have reached absolute momentary failure.
Most people don't even train to positive failure (which is the weakest functional lift of a muscle, and therefore don't even reach 1/3 of absolute failure.
So you are saying that as long as you do one set where you cannot keep going and say use the partial reps principal, that that is all you need for a muscle to grow?
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intensity techniques and going to failure is probably the worst things you can do in bodybuilding and should be avoided like the plague.
Why?
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Where's yours?
im not a true bodybuilder.
so again i ask, where's his picture? or is he just good at google?
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Why?
for a number of reasons. intensity techniques and going to failure has probably injured more people in bodybuilding than anything else, led to overtraining and stopped people from training alltogether.
and where's the connection between intensity, going to failure, and results? there is none.
in fact, going to failure will fry your CNS which also means you wont be able to train as often and because of that you will get much slower results.
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Yes, since slowing the speed of your reps is only one way to increase the intensity of your training.
While on HIT, I use the following intensity techniques: slow reps, forced reps, positive failure, static failure, negative failure, pre-exhaust, ZERO rest inbetween sets.
You have no idea what level of difficulty this type of training is on. I really don't think 99% of people could do it, including you.
The only challenge with volume training is clearing your schedule for a 2 hour workout. It's not only easy but it's quite honestly a waste of time.
As Mentzer said, you can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. And it just so happens that it takes hard work to build muscle. If Arnold trained with HIT he would be doing 10 minute workouts like I do.
sure you can do 10 minute workouts and probably get the same results. but you do know that your gunna get injured pretty quickly doing HIT. Even max-ot methods are pretty hard on the body, overtime your joints are going to seriously get messed up.
id much rather put that extra 1-2 hours in the gym and get a nice medium to high volume workout and stay injury free then to just go to the gym for 10 minutes and leave with extreemly sore joints and hardly any pump
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So you are saying that as long as you do one set where you cannot keep going and say use the partial reps principal, that that is all you need for a muscle to grow?
If you have read my training log in the training section you would know just how intense my workouts are.
I'll give you an example.
Today I plan to do 1 set of close grip underhand pulldowns as my bicep workout. It should go something like this:
Starting in the stretched position, I start the set with a very slow, rhythmic speed. I bring the bar all the way down until I'm in the peak contraction position for my biceps and I hold for a second or two. I then lower just as slow as I pull back into the fully stretched position. I keep this up until I've gotten about 6 reps on my own and then my training partner will help me just the slightest bit so that I can keep up the same speed and rhythm I had earlier. I keep this up until I've reached the point where I can absolutely no longer accomplish a single positive rep. And at that point I will hold the position of peak contraction until I absolutely can no long hold the weight in a static contraction. And then I will lower the weight as slowly as possible. And if I can still manage at this point to lower the weight in a controlled manner, my training partner will pull the bar down and I will lower as slowly as possible until I reach negative failure.
ONE SET! ONE FUCKIN HELL OF A WORKOUT! My biceps have responded exceptionally well to HIT and I expect to see results after this one workout.
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there's a lot of methods to make your training "harder" and more macho, working out nude in the snow is just one proven technique.
but like all the rest, this technique has nothing to do with result.
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sure you can do 10 minute workouts and probably get the same results. but you do know that your gunna get injured pretty quickly doing HIT. Even max-ot methods are pretty hard on the body, overtime your joints are going to seriously get messed up.
id much rather put that extra 1-2 hours in the gym and get a nice medium to high volume workout and stay injury free then to just go to the gym for 10 minutes and leave with extreemly sore joints and hardly any pump
As a matter of fact, since I'm only training each muscle for a minute or two, it's pretty easy on my joints and tendons. I've never had any unusual pains since I started. I've had more injuries from volume training so far, but it's hard to say at this point since I havn't been using HIT for that long.
I'm VERY careful not to injure myself and so all that's left for me to do is hope I never do.
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If you have read my training log in the training section you would know just how intense my workouts are.
I'll give you an example.
Today I plan to do 1 set of close grip underhand pulldowns as my bicep workout. It should go something like this:
Starting in the stretched position, I start the set with a very slow, rhythmic speed. I bring the bar all the way down until I'm in the peak contraction position for my biceps and I hold for a second or two. I then lower just as slow as I pull back into the fully stretched position. I keep this up until I've gotten about 6 reps on my own and then my training partner will help me just the slightest bit so that I can keep up the same speed and rhythm I had earlier. I keep this up until I've reached the point where I can absolutely no longer accomplish a single positive rep. And at that point I will hold the position of peak contraction until I absolutely can no long hold the weight in a static contraction. And then I will lower the weight as slowly as possible. And if I can still manage at this point to lower the weight in a controlled manner, my training partner will pull the bar down and I will lower as slowly as possible until I reach negative failure.
ONE SET! ONE FUCKIN HELL OF A WORKOUT! My biceps have responded exceptionally well to HIT and I expect to see results after this one workout.
Good, now do 19 more sets and that is what an Arnold Schwarzenegger workout feels like.
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there's a lot of methods to make your training "harder" and more macho, working out nude in the snow is just one proven technique.
but like all the rest, this technique has nothing to do with result.
hahhahaha well what it comes down to is that HIT is definetely not for everyone. It's just an extremely stressful way to train and some people could really suffer from serious pre-workout anxiety.
I consider myself a masochist in the gym. I go all out, which most likely has to do with my personality. I just have to give all of my effort or none at all, especially when it comes to something I have such a passion for like bodybuilding. I have clear goals and am determined to reach them.
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Who do you think was able to generate the greatest intensity and why? Any witnesses?
Personally I don't think Mentzer is anywhere close to Arnold training wise.
i like Arnold's style of training a little better, most people will get bigger than with the HIT method if enough calories are consumed, most people can't generate enough intensity for HIT to work.
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Good, now do 19 more sets and that is what an Arnold Schwarzenegger workout feels like.
LOL! You're crazy.
I think my job is done here.
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i like Arnold's style of training a little better, most people will get bigger than with the HIT method if enough calories are consumed, most people can't generate enough intensity for HIT to work.
Well put!
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if HIT is so good how come hardly noone ever grown on it
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if he's a true bodybuilder where's his picture?
Do you have anything at all to contribute to the thread other than unfunny stabs for attention?
Here's a pic..
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everything works but nothing works forever.
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for a number of reasons. intensity techniques and going to failure has probably injured more people in bodybuilding than anything else.
Based on what evidence? Injuries from training happen from dispirate causes including the use of low reps with weight that's too heavy, which can happen from most forms of training.
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Ignored the troll's desperate pleas for attention.
i've explained in detail why it's bad. you obviously doesnt have enough knowledge to participate in the debate.
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i like Arnold's style of training a little better, most people will get bigger than with the HIT method if enough calories are consumed, most people can't generate enough intensity for HIT to work.
You started DC training haven't you?
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You started DC training haven't you?
no, i'm a volume trainer, i've tried DC before though.
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no, i'm a volume trainer, i've tried DC before though.
How long and what have been your results?
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Based on what evidence? Injuries from training happen from dispirate causes including the use of low reps with weight that's too heavy, which can happen from most forms of training.
intensity techniques are not safe. ask yates. overtraining isnt a good thing. frying your CNS isn't a good thing, would fuck with your immune system and make you sick more often.
why would anyone use worthless intensity techniques, going to failure or beyond when there's no need and when it would only increase changes of injury and slow down or hinder gains?
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How long and what have been your results?
it was a couple of years ago and honestly i got fatter and weaker using the Smith machine for all my pressing movements.
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it was a couple of years ago and honestly i got fatter and weaker using the Smith machine for all my pressing movements.
Nonesense!! Why would you use smith machines???????? I made the best gains of my life using DC and will go back to it now.
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intensity techniques are not safe. ask yates. overtraining isnt a good thing. frying your CNS isn't a good thing, would f**k with your immune system and make you sick more often.
why would anyone use worthless intensity techniques, going to failure or beyond when there's no need and when it would only increase changes of injury and slow down or hinder gains?
All of that's just a function of the amount of weight used, and diet. Yates' problems were based on the use of too much weight and a stringent diet. Yates mentioned that he should have stopped short of failure because he was still using heavy weight pre-contest while dieting. Burning the candle at both ends.
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All of that's just a function of the amount of weight used, and diet. Yates' problems were based on the use of too much weight and a stringent diet.
Yates' real problem was the sultan of symmetry aka flex wheeler! ::)
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intensity techniques are not safe. ask yates. overtraining isnt a good thing. frying your CNS isn't a good thing, would f**k with your immune system and make you sick more often.
why would anyone use worthless intensity techniques, going to failure or beyond when there's no need and when it would only increase changes of injury and slow down or hinder gains?
Because I'm currently being rewarded with the best gains of my life. Not only that, but it's a constant challenge to beat my previous workout, to walk into the gym every time and say I'm going to have the most intense workout to ever take place in this gym and MEAN IT!!!
"Dig deep and find the drive to train harder than you ever have before... exceed yourself!"
-Mike Mentzer
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mike mentzer didnt have a clue
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Nonesense!! Why would you use smith machines???????? I made the best gains of my life using DC and will go back to it now.
it's just safer and more practical with the rest pause to use the Smith, i don't do that any more mind you, i do at least one barbell movement for every bodypart now.
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mike mentzer didnt have a clue
That's just plain nonsense.
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Because I'm currently being rewarded with the best gains of my life. Not only that, but it's a constant challenge to beat my previous workout, to walk into the gym every time and say I'm going to have the most intense workout to ever take place in this gym and MEAN IT!!!
"Dig deep and find the drive to train harder than you ever have before... exceed yourself!"
-Mike Mentzer
yeah mike was a lot into macho bullshit. but you can run 10 miles and that would be even harder. still that doesnt build muscle.
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Last week I did one rep on the bench with 135. I took 100 seconds to lower the weight and 50 to push it back up. The most intense workout I ever had.
I'm sure this type of workout will transfer well to my other athletic endeavors.
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Last week I did one rep on the bench with 135. I took 100 seconds to lower the weight and 50 to push it back up. The most intense workout I ever had.
I'm sure this type of workout will transfer well to my other athletic endeavors.
hahahahahahahaha
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That's just plain nonsense.
what good did he ever teach. hardly noone follows his theories.
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yeah mike was a lot into macho bullshit. but you can run 10 miles and that would be even harder. still that doesnt build muscle.
It's also hard to read Shakespear and that certainly wouldn't build muscle. Only by means of weight lifting can the growth process be activated in muscles.
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what good did he ever teach. hardly noone follows his theories.
It's true. That's the sad part. If no one has the balls to train with HIT, Mike at least created a legitimate science of bodybuilding. And I think that's more important than whether or not people train using his programs.
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It's true. That's the sad part. If no one has the balls to train with HIT, Mike at least created a legitimate science of bodybuilding. And I think that's more important than whether or not people train using his programs.
i dont believe in his science. and the macho attitude doesnt make physiques, it breaks physiques.
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i dont believe in his science. and the macho attitude doesnt make physiques, it breaks physiques.
There's nothing particular "macho" about it. I think Bluto is intimidated by it.
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There's nothing particular "macho" about it. I think Bluto is intimidated by it.
Since I started openly discussing HIT I noticed that those who know for themselves that they're not capable of going through the kind of intensity that HIT demands will, instead of admitting it, will deny the effectiveness (even the science of it in this case) of HIT without even having experienced it for themselves.
The only other Getbiggers I know who are using or have used HIT are nodeal (my training partner), davie and Your MAaaaaaaaaa. And they will not deny it's effectiveness and difficulty.
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There's nothing particular "macho" about it. I think Bluto is intimidated by it.
of course it's macho. every other thread is about not being able to train as hard, train through the pain etc. etc.
the same macho bullshit that sells animal supplements.
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If you're seriously asking that you should not be on a BB board.
You shouldn't be on a bodybuilding board you're not a bodybuilder you're a Boxflex-builder lol
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pumpsters homegym is second to none!
;D
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pumpsters homegym is second to none!
;D
According to him the Box Flex is underrated lol
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well it's a step up for pumpster, he used to work his whole body with one of these:
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You shouldn't be on a bodybuilding board you're not a bodybuilder you're a Boxflex-builder lol
You have got to be shitting me! LOL!!
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Oh it gets better pumpster can ' bench ' 410 pounds for 15 full consecutive reps on the Bow Flex as well lol
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Oh it gets better pumpster can ' bench ' 410 pounds for 15 full consecutive reps on the Bow Flex as well lol
:-X ;D
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Oh it gets better pumpster can ' bench ' 410 pounds for 15 full consecutive reps on the Bow Flex as well lol
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yes he was actually bragging about being able to bench 410 pounds for 15 reps lol I told him he couldn't do ONE rep on a barbell !!
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Yes he was actually bragging about being able to bench 410 pounds for 15 reps lol I told him he couldn't do ONE rep on a barbell !!
lol that must equate to 150 x 15 reps on the barbell!
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lol that must equate to 150 x 15 reps on the barbell!
pumpster issued me a $100 challenge that I couldn't do 15 full consecutive reps with 410 pounds power rods on the Boex Flex lol needless to say when I was done laughing.
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pumpster issued me a $100 challenge that I couldn't do 15 full consecutive reps with 410 pounds power rods on the Boex Flex lol needless to say when I was done laughing.
LOL oh man this is hilarious!
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hahhahaha well what it comes down to is that HIT is definetely not for everyone. It's just an extremely stressful way to train and some people could really suffer from serious pre-workout anxiety.
I consider myself a masochist in the gym. I go all out, which most likely has to do with my personality. I just have to give all of my effort or none at all, especially when it comes to something I have such a passion for like bodybuilding. I have clear goals and am determined to reach them.
Yeah, doing one set of lat pulldowns is incredibly stressful and hard. What a pansy. ::)
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Yeah, doing one set of lat pulldowns is incredibly stressful and hard. What a pansy. ::)
Thanks for sharing. How much HIT experience do you have?
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I have enough experience to know that most HIT trainees couldn't bench 225 or squat 315 if their life depended on it.
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I have enough experience to know that most HIT trainees couldn't bench 225 or squat 315 if their life depended on it.
I already have.
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mentzer didn't train using the methods he later preached, neither did dorian. And even if they did, they're genetic elite so it wouldn't matter at all. Who cares.
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Mentzer on many occassions did not practice what he preached.
As an example of a chest work out that was wittnessed ,he did 4 -5 differant exercises 3-4 sets each ,15-20 sets total.
When asked had he given up on his HIT training methods and started following Arnolds advice he said "No this is HIT but only the last set counts ,so ive only done 4-5 sets" ahh yeah right mikie ::)
On that You tube clip the years of Meth/Speed abuse can clearly be seen with his uncoherent talking , slurring and general spaced out look.I think this abuse had him in a constant state of phsycosis,as he is clearly nuts.
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619rules once mentioned a fucked up Mentzer approaching him and his friends and asking "How do you guys get your arms so big?" Lol.
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You can't compare juicing techinque and natural techniques. When it comes to training.
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HIT training is VERY EFFECTIVE. it utilizes the principle of applying intensity to each and every set for maximum muscle growth. working out is(or should be) based around intensity and pushing yourself to the limits. i dont understand how other bodybuilders see this any other way. even while not on a hit program i still apply a high amount of intensity to my sets(low volume) usually with forced reps. the primitive instinct of a bodybuilder should be to do a set until absolutely failure is reached. wtf is wrong with you people...
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Mentzer on many occassions did not practice what he preached.
As an example of a chest work out that was wittnessed ,he did 4 -5 differant exercises 3-4 sets each ,15-20 sets total.
When asked had he given up on his HIT training methods and started following Arnolds advice he said "No this is HIT but only the last set counts ,so ive only done 4-5 sets" ahh yeah right mikie ::)
On that You tube clip the years of Meth/Speed abuse can clearly be seen with his uncoherent talking , slurring and general spaced out look.I think this abuse had him in a constant state of phsycosis,as he is clearly nuts.
there are a lot of anectdotal reports like this that indicate that what Mentzer acually practiced was pyramiding up to one heavy intense set which is what most of us do anyway
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A lot of us are already doing a 'kind' of HIT, we usually do 2-3 'warm up' sets building up to the heaviest weight that we are going to do on the last set.
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Maybe that is why Franco was so small compared to Arnold?
Besides I really doubt Arnold couldn't keep up... ::)
Alexxx, you gotta bone up on your training history. Arnold couldn't hack the training that Arthur Jones threw at him so he packed his shit and left Deland Florida in a huff. Franco did well. After a bit Sergio adapted and thrived and should have won the 1972 Olympia. He was at his best and he owned Arnold that day.
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After a bit Sergio adapted and thrived and should have won the 1972 Olympia. He was at his best and he owned Arnold that day.
Who won the 72 Olympia :D
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Although relatively nwe to HIt style training theories and practices, i am finding it very challenging adn worthwhile.
I differ from figgs in that my training is based arouhd compound moves done to failure ratehr than pre-exhaust. (except for shoulders and quads).
This doesnt mean i disagree with him, im just experimenting and have taken the advice of 'myesone.'
I dont use static holds or many forced reps. My trainnig is different in that i go to failure.... wen this occurs during a rep my partner helps me complete that rep and mayb another, i then rest for 10-15 seconds or about 10 deep breathes (rest/pause), then try and go again, probably resulting in me only getting like 1-4 more reps, on failure my partner halps me get another 1-2 more reps, then i stop. I then drop the weight about 35% and go again, fail then rest/pause then go again. Once i fail again the set is over, and after about 20 seconds i begin my second exercise for that body part.
(all body parts have 2 exercise for them except quads and back which have 3). On the heavy set b4 and afetr the rest/pause i go to absolute positiv failure, i do the same on the drop set.
I dont feel what i do is better or worse than figgs or nodeal, they train very hard, and with impressive will power.
B/c i am not using static failure (tho i do use sum static holds) and negative failure, that is why i think i am able (tho it is very tuff) to do rest/pause and drop set.
Iv done 15 sest a body part, 12, 8 and now 2 extended sets.
It comes down to different strokes for differnt folks.
davie
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I have enough experience to know that most HIT trainees couldn't bench 225 or squat 315 if their life depended on it.
Because most of them aren't doing it properly.
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I find it funny when someone says HIT training is easy. Either they've never attempted it before or they just don't know how to do it. Go read up on the CAsey Viator colorado experiment training articles that are out there. Go get a couple of Metzers earlier books or even ellington dardens latest HIT book. the workouts if done the right way are very, very hard. Do they produce results? Of course they do in most cases. It comes more down to the things you do outside of the gym that dictate what type of results you're gonna have, eating, resting etc. all play a much bigger role. Volume training works for some people, depends how the program is set up and how heavy and intense they are going to go releative to thier recovery ability.
I've done every type of training in the world you can think of. Back in the late 80's early 90's everybody was about "feeling" the muscle. Nobody trained super heavy-that I knew of-what most guys I knew did was follow more or less what Haney and Gaspari were preaching. Medium wieghts, medium reps for 4-5 sets of each exercise, 4-5 movements per bodypart on a push-pull rotation. I remember doing 4 sets of flat, 4 sets of inline, 4 sets of pec deck and 4 sets of dips for my chest. I weighed about 165lbs, up from 140 a few months earlier-this was the weight I wrestled at throughout highschool. This guy I knew came in and wanted to know why I trained so light, I told him what I was doing and he told me to come train with him. The next day I came in and he had me going nuts moving weight that I never thought I could move. the sets were down but still high by todays standards. I ended up being about 185-190 a few months later-no roids, no supplements just heavy training. I decided to start to get ready for the jr. michigan which my buddy was doing, I was just toying with the idea but 3 weeks before the show I had alot of guys telling me I was gonna win. I got really, really sick 10 days out from an infection that was airborn-I worked with the public alot and the doctors thought someone must have had it and coughed on me without me knowing it. I sepent about a week in the hospital and went from a pretty ripped 175 down to 132lbs by the time I could go out of the house. I was on bedrest for about 4-6 months. To get back up in weight once I started training I did the "dorian type" of training and got very, very strong. I got back up to 190ish.
Since then I've been an on again off again trainer. I went to school fulltime so I cut waaaay back on my training to concentrate on school. In that time I've done a ton of different types of training just to experiment and see what works, I've done tons of reading on different types of training etc. I love to research this type of stuff. I've done HIT, max-ot, volume, double pre-exhaust, push-pull routines, powerlifting type of BB training..you name it.
it's my opinion that a program that is most effective for a natural guy is one that focuses on getting in the gym, going nuts for a short period of time with heavy ass weight and getting out so you can recover. The natural guy must train as heavy as possible always trying to progress, there can be no backwards momentum in terms of training effectiveness. You must learn to let yourself recover and you must learn what works best for you from a dietary standpoint-something I'm still trying to figure out but I have issues that I've had to work aroiund so my situation is a little different than joe average in terms of what I can eat and what I can't.
Volume works for some guys but most natural guys will find that following a HIT type of training routine or at least looking at the protocol with an open mind can get them some great results.
max-ot training is very well laid out, heavy ass weight, sort intense workouts and allowing the body to recover. I used this for awhile and really enjoyed it. I think I did some things wrong in terms of allowing myself to accimilate to the training and maybe my warm ups were not all they could have been.. I would like to try this again in the future if I get a chance.
I'm an advocate of DC training bacause I feel it's a system that is set up almost perfectly for a natural guy. If you take the time out to read up on it and follow it to a "t' you really can't fail. You're weights are always progressing and once they stop you switch movements so you never go stale. You cycle your training so you really can't overtrain on a consistant basis. You limit your number of movements so again you can't overtrain...I could probably write a book on the pro's of this type of training. I can't do the diet as it's laid out for the most part...even though the diet itself has never been posted on the net the basics are high protien etc. I have digestive issues that I have to work around so I have to diet a little differently but the program is still damn effective. I'm not saying I'm gonna win the natural mr. o using this type of training but for what I put into it and what I want ot acomplish at this point in my life this is a great routine.
I'd love to try Trevor Smith's BFT training one day and maybe re-address volume at a later time.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that HIT is not better than volume and volume is not better than hit. it all depends on what you can mentally and physically put into your training that will determine what works for you. If you do volume for 6 months nd it ain't working, switch it up but read about what you are planning to do cause-for instance-most guys who fail at DC say something like "I tried DC and it didn't work for me" Ok, well what did you do? "well I followed the program but I added a couple of movements here and there and I added a training day...I didn't do any cardio and I didn't even read up on the diet...I kept my reps a litttle higher and didnt' bother following the blast and cruise techniques" hmmmmmm....wonder why you failed. Same with max-ot, I wouldn't say I failed using it but I didn't follow it to the letter and that's where the problem probably was.
anyway...that's it for now.
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HIT training is VERY EFFECTIVE. it utilizes the principle of applying intensity to each and every set for maximum muscle growth. working out is(or should be) based around intensity and pushing yourself to the limits. i dont understand how other bodybuilders see this any other way. even while not on a hit program i still apply a high amount of intensity to my sets(low volume) usually with forced reps. the primitive instinct of a bodybuilder should be to do a set until absolutely failure is reached. wtf is wrong with you people...
So you're saying "intensity" itself induces muscle growth?
Define intensity.
Now quantify intensity.
Let this be a starting point.
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So you're saying "intensity" itself induces muscle growth?
Define intensity.
Now quantify intensity.
Let this be a starting point.
I'm not gonna speak for him but if someone asked me to define intesity I'd say something like this:
Lets take a movement everyone knows how to do like leg extensions. If you go into the gym on your first day of training and do...let's say 80lbs. You rep out until you've reached positive failure-or at least what you consider positive failure since it takes awhile to actually learn to hit failure-you get about 15 reps. The next time you go into the gym you try just as hard with the same weight but you only get 15 reps again. Was there intesity? In your mind sure but you didn't progress, gave your muscles nothing new to work with. Now if you go in and you bust your balls don't give up and gete 18 reps you've done an "intense" workout. next time you should strive for more weight...in order for there to be "intesity" you must constantly be moving forward in some aspect of your training.
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I'm not gonna speak for him but if someone asked me to define intesity I'd say something like this:
Lets take a movement everyone knows how to do like leg extensions. If you go into the gym on your first day of training and do...let's say 80lbs. You rep out until you've reached positive failure-or at least what you consider positive failure since it takes awhile to actually learn to hit failure-you get about 15 reps. The next time you go into the gym you try just as hard with the same weight but you only get 15 reps again. Was there intesity? In your mind sure but you didn't progress, gave your muscles nothing new to work with. Now if you go in and you bust your balls don't give up and gete 18 reps you've done an "intense" workout. next time you should strive for more weight...in order for there to be "intesity" you must constantly be moving forward in some aspect of your training.
My target wen doing elg extensions is 15 reps in one go before i will up weight next workout, though i want to get more than 15 reps, and i certainly dont stop wen i get there. Since starting a high intensity workout i have upped the weight each week over the last few weeks, Now i know there is going to be a week wer iv upped the weight and i cant get 15 reps and i fail and cannot get another rep no matter how hard i try. I might fail at 12 reps. thats fine as long as i know i could not have tried harder, and i also know that next workout im gonna get at least one more rep until i reach 15 reps and can up the weight again.
(ON LEG EXCTENSIONS......after i fail i rest/pause then go again, then fail,rest/pause then go again, hopefully getting near 20 sumthing reps by the end of the extended set).
davie
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Who do you think was able to generate the greatest intensity and why? Any witnesses?
Personally I don't think Mentzer is anywhere close to Arnold training wise.
I say whatever works best for you. Personally, I always prefured multiple sets and volume.
PB
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My target wen doing elg extensions is 15 reps in one go before i will up weight next workout, though i want to get more than 15 reps, and i certainly dont stop wen i get there. Since starting a high intensity workout i have upped the weight each week over the last few weeks, Now i know there is going to be a week wer iv upped the weight and i cant get 15 reps and i fail and cannot get another rep no matter how hard i try. I might fail at 12 reps. thats fine as long as i know i could not have tried harder, and i also know that next workout im gonna get at least one more rep until i reach 15 reps and can up the weight again.
(ON LEG EXCTENSIONS......after i fail i rest/pause then go again, then fail,rest/pause then go again, hopefully getting near 20 sumthing reps by the end of the extended set).
davie
that's a good way to look at it. If you set a target rep range and always try to hit it and/or move up in wieght you should progress nicely. If you start with 50lbs-just a number off the top of my head and you get 15 reps but you believe that you hit positive failure on the 15th rep next time you should shoot for 15 reps with 55lbs. now if you get 12 reps with 55lbs I would not get to worked up about it but if you don't hit 15 reps the second time then I'd start to think if I was working as hard as I can or perhaps I'm just not built for this movement and maybe think of using something else that allows me to progress how I want to.
I started hack squatting a few weeks ago for the first time in years. I started really, really light cause I didn't know how my lower back would take it. The weight I started with was kinda pathetic but I shot for 20 reps, next time I upped the weight and got another 20 reps...now I'm still getting higher reps but my weight is getting respectable cause I've pushed myself everytime I do the movement....
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The stuff Menzter says on the video make sense but he sound like a punch drunk boxer.
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The stuff Menzter says on the video make sense but he sound like a punch drunk boxer.
Irrelevant, as unimportant as gauging Schwarzenegger by recent pics.
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Irrelevant, as unimportant as gauging Schwarzenegger by recent pics.
Agreed. In his prime, Mentzer was one of the best out there. He approached bodybuilding from a scientific angle and produce major results. Moreso when he was out of the limelight himself.
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I am going back to volume at the advice of a few people whose opinions I highly regard here. Being a hardgainer ectomorph I found my best results then and with proper nutrition I think I can get the gains I want. I think certain bodt types need to be pushed to the limit like that.
so your an ecto and you feel that volume training would get you best results? If it's posted here sorry but I'd like to see what you were doing if you were doing HIT. seems alot of the concepts are tailor made for the ecto....
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I just don't feel like my muscles get worked. When I went through a good muscle spurt back in the day it was because of volume and a shit load of eating. I'm sure I could try it out again but I dunno...
post an example of what your doing and what your eating and maybe we can find the problem...
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There are usually a number of different approaches that will work for anyone, once they've been discovered. Most don't try enough alternatives to find out which ones, therefore assume that only one approach works. A little experimentation's a huge advantage. Another good approach is to tailor slight variations into existing programs, to see which works best.
The other factor is motivation-if two approaches work but one is much more appealing to do long-term, that's the one to use. The only caveat: there may be other approaches out there that are equally appealing that haven't yet been tried.
Volume as an example: moderate sets with more effective use of each set using higher intensity can be as or more effective, while still being similar enough to appeal to volume trainers. Some who've used volume might appreciate moderate volume even more because there's more intensity & workouts aren't as drawn-out. From experience, i can't say that standard volume proved any discernible advantage over moderate volume, was just more work and more time-consuming. Volume might help when refining for a contest.
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Agreed. In his prime, Mentzer was one of the best out there. He approached bodybuilding from a scientific angle and produce major results.
And Arnold not?? ::) :P Moron :o
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And Arnold not?? ::) :P Moron :o
You didn't pay attention to the context. He was referring to the criticism of Mentzer, so obviously your hero wouldn't need to be mentioned. Silly
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Pump:
I haven't read much about your position but what is about Arnold that you don't like beside the fact that you mentioned he was pompous?
Great guy. More interesting than most public figures. Also an a-hole. Weren't you the one who confirmed the stories about him demanding to have stores closed in LA so that he could shop in private? Anyway, he's interesting as well as personally a load at times; both behaviors were seen by voters in the last year.
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i like Arnold's style of training a little better, most people will get bigger than with the HIT method if enough calories are consumed, most people can't generate enough intensity for HIT to work.
I agree with that. I don't think most people really train to failure. Its too painful. Even many who say they are training to failure aren't. It takes a lot of willpower to keep doing negatives and shit like that.
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well it's a step up for pumpster, he used to work his whole body with one of these:
I would use the Bullworker if she was included with it.
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Who won the 72 Olympia :D
Arnold. But it was a gift. Sergio Oliva was the greatest bodybuilder who ever lived bar none.
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The stuff Menzter says on the video make sense but he sound like a punch drunk boxer.
He was very sick. He actually died the night the video was made.
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Arnold. But it was a gift. Sergio Oliva was the greatest bodybuilder who ever lived bar none.
Sureeeeeeeeeeeeee ::)
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I agree with that. I don't think most people really train to failure. Its too painful. Even many who say they are training to failure aren't. It takes a lot of willpower to keep doing negatives and shit like that.
Any serious BB should be able to at least train to positive failure at the least, which would allow moderate volume to be used instead of classic 20+ set volume with little intensity. Moderate volume's intense in good ways without being gruelling the way HIT is.
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He was very sick. He actually died the night the video was made.
Years of meth/speed abuse did not help him.
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Pump:
I haven't read much about your position but what is about Arnold that you don't like beside the fact that you mentioned he was pompous?
His problem with Arnold is he beat Sergio and pumpster doesn't think thats right , pumpster thinks that Arnold could never beat Sergio without the Weider's fixing the contests ::)
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His problem with Arnold is he beat Sergio and pumpster doesn't think thats right , pumpster thinks that Arnold could never beat Sergio without the Weider's fixing the contests ::)
ND proving over & over again to have no life, following pumpster around other threads like a fag. Even i'm embarassed for him at this point. :-X
He's obsessed with Schwarzenegger over Oliva, even after i told him it was a toss-up, one not clearly better than the other. I mentioned that Serge Nubret saw it the same way, next thing you know ND's on Nubret's thread, unable to second-guess anything i've said about those BBs and BB politics because it's true & confirmed by Nubret.
With nothing to say, ND goes on and on in mindless fashion like a spurned BEEEOTCH looking for a relationship. :-*
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Mentzer uses logic instead of reasearched science as proof and foundation of his training methodology.
That is where it all goes wrong.
He should get a lot of credit for turning people's attention for the need of recovery, although he quite probably didn't have it all right (Mentzer didn't believe in training until you were fully recovered).
Research shows that the muscle can be trained while still recovering.
Also, there is the possibility of training with different levels of intensity.
-Hedge
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ND proving over & over again to have no life, following pumpster around other threads like a fag. Even i'm embarassed for him at this point. :-X
He's obsessed with Schwarzenegger over Oliva, even after i told him it was a toss-up. I mentioned that Serge Nubret saw it the same way, next thing you know ND's on Nubret's thread, unable to second-guess the veracity of what i'd said about those BBs and BB politics, because it's accurate.
With nothing to say, he just goes on and on in mindless fashion like a spurned BEEEOTCH looking for a relationship. hahahahaahahahah
Pumpster has issued a challenge to all comers he will pay ANYONE $100 if they can bench 410 pounds power-rods on the Bow Flex for 15 full consecutive reps , true story !!
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Pumpster has issued a challenge to all comers he will pay ANYONE $100 if they can bench 410 pounds power-rods on the Bow Flex for 15 full consecutive reps , true story !!
The offer was only made to this puzzy, who refused to take the money because he weighs 155 lb., couldn't do it and instead spends his free time on a BB site following men around. :-*
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The offer was only made to this puzzy, who refused to take the money because he weighs 155 lb., couldn't do it and instead spends his free time on a BB site following men around. :-*
I said I'll take your cash , you post a video of you doing it first and then I'll take your cash.
pumpster benches 410 pounds for 15 reps lmfao
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ND hijacking yet another thread with more lies-he simply refused to accept the offer..*yawn*...
Anyone interested in Bowflexes ND sells em, PM him for details..
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ND hijacking yet another thread with more lies-he simply refused to accept the offer..*yawn*...
Anyone interested in Bowflexes ND sells em, PM him for details..
Post a video on YouTube of you benching 410 pounds for 15 full consecutive reps and I'll take your C-note , I doubt you can do it first of all and I want proof lets go sport , put your money where your mouth is. ;)
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ND out of touch, doesn't comprehend that his thread hijacks are lame..unfunny & no one cares. ;D Puzzy missed his chance when he backed down from the challenge.
ND is currently running a pre-Xmas sale on Bowflexes and Gazelles...PM him for details..
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Back on track. I still think volume takes alot out of the body. Wouldn't you guys consider the training of Olympic athletes to be intense? They are long and grueling, jus tlike Arnold's workouts.
Can't believe you're asking this..How are the workouts long and gruelling? In track, sprinters have the most size. They're doing something in the middle-high intensity for good but not excessive volume. Higher volume wouldn't work because of the intensity.
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ND out of touch, doesn't comprehend that his thread hijacks are lame..unfunny & no one cares. ;D Puzzy missed his chance when he backed down from the challenge.
ND is currently running a pre-Xmas sale on Bowflexes and Gazelles...PM him for details..
This is your house slick NOT mine this is your Bow Flex lol you know the one you said you can bench 410 pounds on for 15 reps lol
put your money where your mouth is . ;)
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Lameass ND continuing to hijack the thread, with no life outside of an apparent obsession with white BBs and pumpster.. :-*
ND's Xmas special on Total Gyms & Gazelles kicks off this week, PM him for details..
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Olympic sprinters in all sports do more yards/meters than the average person can handle and they still have size. They do high intensity for alot of volume, trust me.
Where you a sprinter? I was. Each sprint is analogous to a set. They're not doing high volumes of sprints at 100%.
As far as "still having size" you've completely misunderstood what is a widely used analogy to anyone who reads about training. They have more leg size than any other track athletes, not less, due to the higher-intensity sprints used, which is akin to high-intensity sets.
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Yes. We trained high intensity sets at increasing levels up to 100%. Training at 100% and doing less volume would be bad because the body needs to be aclimated to racing one event after the other. Training higher volume at high intensity does wonders.
In other words, those extra sets are just for warmups, warmup that can be accomplished in various ways. It's just a pyramid, with fewer max. intensity sprints at the top that make all the difference. The warmups aren't doing much towards improvement.
Sprinters who do higher numbers of sprints gain the size from a relatively small number of 100% sprints. The rest of the sprints are either unnecessary or develop endurance.
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My original point was that the length of an athlete's workouts can also lend credit to intensity not about 100% sprints.
Don't know what that means but essentially the sprinter analogy i used is accurate. The size compared to longer distances comes from 100% effort over a moderate number of sprints AKA sets. Sprinting 100% all-out beyond moderate numbers of sprints say 10-12 max. only increases endurance.
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Actually the sprinting analogy to lifting is widely used and is accurate.
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I'm not gonna speak for him but if someone asked me to define intesity I'd say something like this:
Lets take a movement everyone knows how to do like leg extensions. If you go into the gym on your first day of training and do...let's say 80lbs. You rep out until you've reached positive failure-or at least what you consider positive failure since it takes awhile to actually learn to hit failure-you get about 15 reps. The next time you go into the gym you try just as hard with the same weight but you only get 15 reps again. Was there intesity? In your mind sure but you didn't progress, gave your muscles nothing new to work with. Now if you go in and you bust your balls don't give up and gete 18 reps you've done an "intense" workout. next time you should strive for more weight...in order for there to be "intesity" you must constantly be moving forward in some aspect of your training.
No thats not the way intensity is defined for these HIT'ers. The concept of intensity that these guys adhere to really is a percieved intensity than the kind u describe- though ur definition is wrong (no offense), it still offers something that can be GAUGED, i.e. there is an element of progression; the idea that I will outperform myself from last workout, whether it is getting more reps or upping the weight.
So if you're feeling better than your previous workout and you outperform yourself from last time, intensity as u described is increased by virtue of doing more even if perceived intensity may not have been as high.
So basically IMO, "perceived" intensity is a crock of shit since it can't really be measured. Your workouts revolve around how "intense" they are supposed to be instead of how much weight is lifted (or repitions/sets performed with a particular weight).
A pound of weight is always a pound of weight. A pound of intensity....wait..
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Just pick up a heavy weight and lift it. What is so fucking hard to understand?
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Sureeeeeeeeeeeeee ::)
Arnold was not a better bodybuilder than the Myth. Arnold was white and charismatic while Sergio was black and not very articulate. That is why Arnold beat Sergio. Many on this board concur with that.
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So basically IMO, "perceived" intensity is a crock of shit since it can't really be measured. Your workouts revolve around how "intense" they are supposed to be instead of how much weight is lifted (or repitions/sets performed with a particular weight).
A pound of weight is always a pound of weight. A pound of intensity....wait..
Sounds complicated. Intensity is measurable so don't worry about it.
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That's a bold statement dude.
It's quite obvious actually. Getbig has it's fair share of unquestioning Arnold fanatics who buy into the Schwarzenegger aura unquestioningly, even though Arnold himself as well as Nubret have said the two were comparable. Anything beyond that is just personal preference.
Marketability was a big factor, which took into account personality & skin color. Big difference in who would have the edge in contests. The guy who could sell more product would have an advantage, in the same way that even a current Arnold cover sells mags.
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Pumpster is one of the most knowledgable posters here. He's a true bodybuilder and doesn't just come here to just f**k around like most of the guys here on G&O.
you do know that pumpster doesnt even go to a gym.
he uses a fucking bowflex in his parents basement.
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Good, now do 19 more sets and that is what an Arnold Schwarzenegger workout feels like.
arnold didnt go to failure on every set.
if he or anyone did, they wouldnt be doing that many sets.
the more often to failure you go, the less sets you do.
the less sets you can only do.
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That bowflex pic is right up there with the 240 naked pose pic. Classic.
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arnold didnt go to failure on every set.
if he or anyone did, they wouldnt be doing that many sets.
the more often to failure you go, the less sets you do.
the less sets you can only do.
That isn't accurate. You can go to failure with 100 sets if you wanted to. It all depends of the drive of the person and the resources/goals he has in mind.
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That isn't accurate. You can go to failure with 100 sets if you wanted to. It all depends of the drive of the person and the resources/goals he has in mind.
The only way u could ever get close to failure on every set would be if u dropped the weight ever single set and didnt mind ur reps getting lower and lower aswell. But even then u couldnt do it for anywer near 100 sets!!
davie
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arnold didnt go to failure on every set.
if he or anyone did, they wouldnt be doing that many sets.
the more often to failure you go, the less sets you do.
the less sets you can only do.
This dweeb mentioned somewhere that he weights around 160 lb. soaking wet, and is giving advice. ;D
That bowflex pic is right up there with the 240 naked pose pic. Classic.
Sounds intrigued; PM Icecold & ND they're running a pre-Xmas blowout on Gazelles & Bows.
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I don't know if anybody has brought this up but Arnold went to train with Arthur Jones back in the early 70's. Both him and Franco went down to the nautilus facilities. I've read where jones said arnold trained like a pussy while he was there. Jones said something like he knows when a guy is reaching failure and when they are faking it and he was convinced arnold was faking it most of the time. Arnold would make all of these faces and moan but jones felt that he stopped waaaaaay short of failure for the most part. Arnold then went and denounced all of jones theories in a muscle builder article cause I think weider had a bone to pick with jones over something....it's in Dardens latest book, it's a fun little read.
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I've read where jones said arnold trained like a pussy while he was there. Jones said something like he knows when a guy is reaching failure and when they are faking it and he was convinced arnold was faking it most of the time. Arnold would make all of these faces and moan but jones felt that he stopped waaaaaay short of failure for the most part. Arnold then went and denounced all of jones theories in a muscle builder article cause I think weider had a bone to pick with jones over something....
Totally believable, i remember the unnecessarily vindictive Weider articles about Jones & Nautilus in the 70s. As far as Arnold making faces, that's exactly what was seen in Pumping Iron, where the hard sets were done by others for the most part.
No way to know whether volume's most effective without trying alternatives, which Schwarzenegger didn't do. What is sure is that Oliva actually went through it and thought it was highly effective, both HIT AND the increased effectiveness of machines in most cases.
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But in reality Arnold could have just responded to volume better I mean damn, look how his body responded to AAS.
sergio made his most impressive gains while he worked with jones so did viator, even at arnolds level I'd think it wouldn't hurt to look at different things especially since most of the tactics jones was using were new at the time. I just thought it was a funny story when i read it.
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sergio made his most impressive gains while he worked with jones so did viator, even at arnolds level I'd think it wouldn't hurt to look at different things especially since most of the tactics jones was using were new at the time. I just thought it was a funny story when i read it.
Natural Al, i know uv tried various training protocols and i wander if uv ever tried arthur jones type workouts??
One set of failure (positive failure) per exercise, using pre-exhaust, and working whole body per workout??
Do u think it would be hard to recover from soreness from workout to workout?? +was the goal to add weight each workout or each week, or just at every available oppertunity?
davie
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Natural Al, i know uv tried various training protocols and i wander if uv ever tried arthur jones type workouts??
One set of failure (positive failure) per exercise, using pre-exhaust, and working whole body per workout??
Do u think it would be hard to recover from soreness from workout to workout?? +was the goal to add weight each workout or each week, or just at every available oppertunity?
davie
I've never done that. If I were going to do it the first thing I would have to do was get 2 guys to train with on a consistant basis which I haven't had for about 13 years or so. 2nd I'd like to have the gym to myself or at least a few peices of equipemnt to myself so I could do it right. I don't remember exactly what jones had viator do off the top of my head but it would take me awhile to get used to that type of workout. I don't know if a natural guy could do it plus I have asthma so I'd have to get my cardiovascular system in shape before I'd even try it.
I've fooled around with alot of metzer's techniques. There was a little blurb in flex about 13 or 14 years ago about metzer training yates and they did something called "hyper reps". I did my best to copy that technique for a few months cause my chest is a very weak bodypart for me so I was trying everything to bring it up. What I would do was set up an Icarian incline bench with as much weight as the machine could handle plus 2 additional 25 lbs plates fastened to the weight stack. My first rep would take forever to complete, probably 5-6 seconds and then it was nagatives as slow as possible with a nice controlled positive until I failed then I'd strip some weight off and start again...I shot for a 10 second negative for every rep and the set went on for along time until I literally was moving like 40lbs then I would put the pin at the bottom of the stack and have someone lift it all the way up and I'd hold it as long as I could. It was brutal. I dont' remember how long I did those for but my wrists would hurt for along time afterwards so I stopped.
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I've never done that. If I were going to do it the first thing I would have to do was get 2 guys to train with on a consistant basis which I haven't had for about 13 years or so. 2nd I'd like to have the gym to myself or at least a few peices of equipemnt to myself so I could do it right. I don't remember exactly what jones had viator do off the top of my head but it would take me awhile to get used to that type of workout. I don't know if a natural guy could do it plus I have asthma so I'd have to get my cardiovascular system in shape before I'd even try it.
I've fooled around with alot of metzer's techniques. There was a little blurb in flex about 13 or 14 years ago about metzer training yates and they did something called "hyper reps". I did my best to copy that technique for a few months cause my chest is a very weak bodypart for me so I was trying everything to bring it up. What I would do was set up an Icarian incline bench with as much weight as the machine could handle plus 2 additional 25 lbs plates fastened to the weight stack. My first rep would take forever to complete, probably 5-6 seconds and then it was nagatives as slow as possible with a nice controlled positive until I failed then I'd strip some weight off and start again...I shot for a 10 second negative for every rep and the set went on for along time until I literally was moving like 40lbs then I would put the pin at the bottom of the stack and have someone lift it all the way up and I'd hold it as long as I could. It was brutal. I dont' remember how long I did those for but my wrists would hurt for along time afterwards so I stopped.
Haha sounds tough, but did it help ur chest??lol.
I think jones workout started with legs, and worked up the body to the small body parts,arms calves etc.
Legs went like this i think. leg raise, squat then leg press, all for about a 20 rep target. Going straight fromone to another in HIT style, then on to back etc.
davie
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Haha sounds tough, but did it help ur chest??lol.
I think jones workout started with legs, and worked up the body to the small body parts,arms calves etc.
Legs went like this i think. leg raise, squat then leg press, all for about a 20 rep target. Going straight fromone to another in HIT style, then on to back etc.
davie
didn't work for my chest. I've got really strong delts and they tend to take over almost any movement that I do for chest. I'm doing something right now that seems to be working but I told the guy who set me up with the technique that I wouldn't spill the beans on it, he's helped me out with a couple of odds and ends over the last year and I don't want to burn a bridge with him, lets just say it's f'n brutal.
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I still think Arnold came up with a great program that worked for him. Ronnie uses volume and so does Jay and they get results, so why can't people accept what Arnold did works?
it works but you have to remember that these guys are the "genetic elite" of the population plus joe average isn't gonna be on half the stuff these guys are to "aid" in thier recovery. All 3 of those guys and most pro's in general have a genetic predisposition for gaining muscle and recovering which is only multiplied by the drugs they take.
When I talk about training I'm talking about training as a natural guy who doesn't have the resources to go and spend 500+bucks a month on cutting edge supplements to aid in my recovery.
the simple fact is that if 99.9% of the guys on this board went and trained with jay and kept up with him during the workout and did this for a week but ate what they usually ate and took the supplements they usually take and were drug free they'd be burned out in no time flat. Natural guys can't train like guys on roids and they can't train like pro's on roids...it might work for some guys but it won't work for 99.9% of the population.
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It's hard to tell; he didn't have much intensity in the movie but it's quite possible he trained hard off-camera. Would have to ask someone who was there. With volume though, even when training hard it's only for a certain portion of overall sets; the rest are effectively warmups.
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I'm that is true AL, not sure about the 99% part though. I think most natural guys don't recover or eat enough and that is where they mess up. Volume in workouts is a secondary problem IMO.
I was kinda talking in a very broad sense, that's why I said if a guy from this site trained with jay but after the workout was left to his own devices he'd probably fail. Jay eats an enormous amount of food from what I've seen, most guys can't afford to eat that way or it's just not practical for them.
that's one of the reasons I'm willing to give a guy like Jeff Willet the benefit of the doubt. He's working with guys who have PHd's in nutrition and excercise, they watch his every move..if you read his old training journals on the ast site, they monitor pretty much everyhting he does...he's put himself in a "can't fail" situation. I'm not saying he's natural and that's actually for another thread but think about the assets he has at his disposal.
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But wouldn't you agree that Arnold's chest/back supersets are intense as hell? He is known to have buried alot of guys in the gym. Doesn't that show intensity? Dbol isn't going to give the endurance that he had in the gym.
I guess I'd have to know who he buried and what they did leading up to that particular workout. Was it the first time they trained in that fashion? Like I said, you learrn to train hard, if these guys were novices to training intesity then it's very believable that he could bury them...if it's a seasoned pro that's used to training that way well that might be a different story.
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I don't know if anybody has brought this up but Arnold went to train with Arthur Jones back in the early 70's. Both him and Franco went down to the nautilus facilities.
I mentioned it. Arnold couldn't hack it in Deland. Franco did well. Sergio got in tremendous shape training under Jones supervision.
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One heavy set to failure is NOT the way for the common man to train. It doesn't work unless you are on gear (unless you consider being fat with no lines "working) and it's the lazy man's way out. Taking the lazy way out is not the right way to do things.
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One heavy set to failure is NOT the way for the common man to train. It doesn't work unless you are on gear (unless you consider being fat with no lines "working) and it's the lazy man's way out. Taking the lazy way out is not the right way to do things.
That's hilarious, you are clueless if you think it's easy. Seems most here don't really understand HIT. Think of it as compressing a lot of the work done in volume into 1-2 very extended sets using a variety of means. It's not for you to say what the correct way is, or to try to diminish it with speculation about gear use.
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One heavy set to failure is NOT the way for the common man to train. It doesn't work unless you are on gear (unless you consider being fat with no lines "working) and it's the lazy man's way out. Taking the lazy way out is not the right way to do things.
EC....do you honestly think that if someone decides to do a HIT workout they're gonna do one heavy straight set and that's it? That was perhaps the dumbest most uninformed post in the entire thread.
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intensity is not important
:o- What a statement! that's only true if you're using lots of gear. Too many people rely on that instead of training hard.
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That's hilarious, you are clueless if you think it's easy. Seems most here don't really understand HIT. Think of it as compressing a lot of the work done in volume into 1-2 very extended sets using a variety of means. It's not for you to say what the correct way is, or to try to diminish it with speculation about gear use.
It is the LAZY MAN'S WAY TO TRAIN. Why would you INTENTIONALLY do as LITTLE as possible, risking UNDER-TRAINING, rather than do more VOLUME? Your chances of OVER-TRAINING are MUCH less probable than those of UNDER-TRAINING.
HIT is slang for "I'm lazy and just don't want to put the work in that I'm capable of...I like trying to get more out of less"
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No thats not the way intensity is defined for these HIT'ers. The concept of intensity that these guys adhere to really is a percieved intensity than the kind u describe- though ur definition is wrong (no offense), it still offers something that can be GAUGED, i.e. there is an element of progression; the idea that I will outperform myself from last workout, whether it is getting more reps or upping the weight.
So if you're feeling better than your previous workout and you outperform yourself from last time, intensity as u described is increased by virtue of doing more even if perceived intensity may not have been as high.
So basically IMO, "perceived" intensity is a crock of shit since it can't really be measured. Your workouts revolve around how "intense" they are supposed to be instead of how much weight is lifted (or repitions/sets performed with a particular weight).
A pound of weight is always a pound of weight. A pound of intensity....wait..
bump for discussion
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I don't know if anybody has brought this up but Arnold went to train with Arthur Jones back in the early 70's. Both him and Franco went down to the nautilus facilities. I've read where jones said arnold trained like a pussy while he was there. Jones said something like he knows when a guy is reaching failure and when they are faking it and he was convinced arnold was faking it most of the time. Arnold would make all of these faces and moan but jones felt that he stopped waaaaaay short of failure for the most part. Arnold then went and denounced all of jones theories in a muscle builder article cause I think weider had a bone to pick with jones over something....it's in Dardens latest book, it's a fun little read.
Yeah, because Ellington Darden is such a credible source. ::)
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It is the LAZY MAN'S WAY TO TRAIN. Why would you INTENTIONALLY do as LITTLE as possible, risking UNDER-TRAINING, rather than do more VOLUME? Your chances of OVER-TRAINING are MUCH less probable than those of UNDER-TRAINING.
HIT is slang for "I'm lazy and just don't want to put the work in that I'm capable of...I like trying to get more out of less"
You couldnt be more wrong, i mean u could try but i think this is about as wrong as u can possibly be.
Iv worked with higher volume, moderate volume, and if a good diet/work ethic is applied i made sum progress.
But now i am on a HIT style routine i do not think i have worked harder in shorter time periods ever.
I have carried out leg session in 1/2 an hour including warm-ups and stretching and have had people walk up to me and wer surprised i hadnt been training for hours, b/c i looked so completely wiped out. I just told them i did extended set for 3 exercises on quads and 1 for hams and i was dunzzo!!
Too many times in the past wen i did more volume i would leave thinking i had worked hard b/c id beat targets etc, but in essence i had taken 2 min breaks between sets and had done lots of sets....maybe squatting a weight 6 times wen now i am forcing myself to do it 12.
I think the people in this thread who believe HIT can work are not dismissing the effects of volume on some trainers, but it seems weird that volume trainers are however dismissing the effects that HIT can have on some trainers.
Yes i feel volume can work, but i hope that HIT will work better for me.
You shouldnt just put the shutters down and have such closed minded opinions of things.
davie
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Yeah, because Ellington Darden is such a credible source. ::)
why do you say that? I honestly don't know if he's credible or not...he's written a ton of books so why isn't he credible?
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You shouldnt just put the shutters down and have such closed minded opinions of things.
Yes you should...when you're correct...
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You shouldnt just put the shutters down and have such closed minded opinions of things.
Yes you should...when you're correct...
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
My thoughts exactly!!
Thats the thing about bodybuilding, no one person is absolutely correct. its pretty impossible!! As different things work for different people. So i go back to my statement that you shouldnt be so close minded!!
davie
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He couldn't hack it or he didn't like it?
He didn't like it because he couldn't hack it.
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He didn't like it because he couldn't hack it.
that's what the book said, I only scanned it but I think I'm gonna get it for a christmas gift so I'm gonna read it and then I'll know more. Jones seemed to think arnold stopped way short of training as hard as he could, judging by what I've read about Casey's training it seems to me Jones knew how to make dudes bust thier balls in the gym, wether you think the techniques work or not is irrelevent you can't argue with the intesity levels that are described during the "colorado experiment" as soon as CAsey would finish a set jones would have guys literally grab him and carry him over to the next machine and away he would go. I would have loved to see video of this stuff if it exists...
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Yeah, because Ellington Darden is such a credible source. ::)
Let's believe "Brian X" instead. ::)
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How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.
Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.
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How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.
Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.
Dogg crapp isnt really HIT....
And am i right in saying u cant think of any famous bodybuilder u used HIT or HIT style workouts??
What about mentzer (mike and ray), dorian yates, casey viator, sergio, i believe franco trained with arthur jones.
They seems like some of the most famous names in bodybuilding.
Also dorian is multiple olympia winner, and a high intensity training advocate!!
davie
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How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.
Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.
I'm not even going to get into the whole DC debate. HIT has many forms, max-ot is hit orientated so are alot of other programs. I'm not saying hit is the be all end all of anything and I'm not saying it works for everyone. What I am saying is that I think natural guys can look at hit and try certain things and probably benefit from it.
do you honestly think that joe average BB can train like the guys that are in the olympia do and succeed? Like I said earlier, those guys are the "genetic elite", now wether we define genetic elite as guys who are pure mesmorphs or guys who just respond to drugs better than the average guy that's what they are. if 90% of the guys on this site trained like jay they would be burned out in a week cause you could never recover from that. Jay's got it down to a science, from his drug intake to his diet to his sleep and recovery. Joe average just does not, I've been working out along time and I'm still working on things.
the bottom line is that certain things will work for certain guys, some things won't but if you don't look at everything you'll never figure out what works best for you. If you look at hit type of training and as soon as your done reading about it you decide it's crap then what you've done is miss an opportunity, maybe it'll work for you maybe not but 9 times out of 10 you'll walk away after trying a program no matter how out there it is and learn something. BB is about learning, you can't learn if you close a door before even looking in the room.
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Dorian did not use HIT. He has said on may occaisions that the Mentzer way did not use enough sets for a "proper workout". His words, not mine.
Actually, the only people to use HIT are internet nobodies that never post a pic of themselves. No offense guys.
I find that when i'm clean volume traing works best, but when i'm 'on' Dorian style ultra intense [but NOT hit] works.
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Dorian did not use HIT. He has said on may occaisions that the Mentzer way did not use enough sets for a "proper workout". His words, not mine.
Actually, the only people to use HIT are internet nobodies that never post a pic of themselves. No offense guys.
I find that when i'm clean volume traing works best, but when i'm 'on' Dorian style ultra intense [but NOT hit] works.
you just kinda proved my point for me. Dorian didn't use hit in the purest sence of the word or concept but he did educate himself on the subject and take certain aspects and apply them which is exactly what I've been saying for all of my posts. It's what the guys at AST did when they came up with max ot, it's what DC did-or at least what I think he did when he came up with his principles. It's what Trevor Smith did when he came up with BFT training.
I'm not saying volume won't work what I'm saying is it's my opinion that for a natural guy, taking certain aspects of HIT type of training might work better than doing volume for the sake of doing volume.
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that's what the book said, I only scanned it but I think I'm gonna get it for a christmas gift so I'm gonna read it and then I'll know more. Jones seemed to think arnold stopped way short of training as hard as he could, judging by what I've read about Casey's training it seems to me Jones knew how to make dudes bust thier balls in the gym, wether you think the techniques work or not is irrelevent you can't argue with the intesity levels that are described during the "colorado experiment" as soon as CAsey would finish a set jones would have guys literally grab him and carry him over to the next machine and away he would go. I would have loved to see video of this stuff if it exists...
I love reading about Arthur Jones and the Nautilus stuff.
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What would Tom Platz style of training be called? Legend has it he trained harder than any bigtime bodybuilder in history.
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I love reading about Arthur Jones and the Nautilus stuff.
I wish there was more out there or I wish Casey would come on here and talk about it a little more, maybe someone should see if he'd be willing to do that.
there's a Gold's in my area, it's a little hike for me to get there but they have all that old nautilus stuff there, or at least they did a few years ago and it's awsome stuff, I'd love to see them retro that stuff and see if it could become popular in this time period.
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yes they can train like that if they dont go to failure.
and stop this bullshit about arnold not being able to train hard enough, it's the same old tired bullshit macho talk again and again and over again that serves no purpose.
get this - no bodybuilders can hang with how greco-roman wrestlers train. or people training for an ironman. or marathon runners. or cyclists. etc etc
yet you dont see these people boost about how hard they train.
so it's obvious it's just a lame macho routine for nerds that think theyre hard and tough in the gym.
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What would Tom Platz style of training be called? Legend has it he trained harder than any bigtime bodybuilder in history.
I don't know...I've read some articles and he was pretty insane, he did alot of volume but used alot of HIT techniques again this is an example of the genetic elite as far as recovery ability goes but even Platz started to break down training in this manner, he tore his bi pretty bad in 81 and had other injuries, he also started to have alot of trouble getting into shape at the end of his career...maybe he was burned out at this point? I'd like to see someone post "exactly" what he did while he was training.
yes they can train like that if they dont go to failure.
and stop this bullshit about arnold not being able to train hard enough, it's the same old tired bullshit macho talk again and again and over again that serves no purpose.
get this - no bodybuilders can hang with how greco-roman wrestlers train. or people training for an ironman. or marathon runners. or cyclists. etc etc
yet you dont see these people boost about how hard they train.
so it's obvious it's just a lame macho routine for nerds that think theyre hard and tough in the gym.
actually I don't know how hard arnold trained, I just sited something out of a book that said arnold was a dog when he trained with Jones. I've trained for wrestling and it's hard as hell but it's so far removed from BB I wouldn't even correlate the 2 but I get what your saying.
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my guess platz trained too heavy, too much intensity techniques etc which would fuck with his CNS and possibly his form, joints etc
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my guess platz trained too heavy, too much intensity techniques etc which would f**k with his CNS and possibly his form, joints etc
maybe somebody can post his routine...I kinda remember some parts of what he did but I'd like to read what he did cause I've heard he was nuts in the gym, like a man possessed.
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How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.
Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.
Wrong, Yates & Oliva used it. Besides which, the sample of winners is small, wouldn't be a large %.
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and stop this bullshit about arnold not being able to train hard enough, it's the same old tired bullshit macho talk again and again and over again that serves no purpose.
Where's the proof he did? There's no way to know his unrealized potential because he never tried anything else, and possibly didn't train hard.
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Where's the proof he did? There's no way to know his unrealized potential because he never tried anything else, and possibly didn't train hard.
yeah i think a lot of us look at arnold and think about all that unrealized potential he had and wasted ::)
how about the unrealized potential of yates if he didnt fuck up his training, lifting too much weight and train with too much intensity
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yeah i think a lot of us look at arnold and think about all that unrealized potential he had and wasted ::)
how about the unrealized potential of yates if he didnt f**k up his training, lifting too much weight and train with too much intensity
yeah, 6 Olympia's is a lot of unrealized potential. ::)
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yeah, 6 Olympia's is a lot of unrealized potential. ::)
yeah exactly
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yeah i think a lot of us look at arnold and think about all that unrealized potential he had and wasted
I'm not an HIT proponent, but any good program when first tried might create improvement. Nothing to do with long-term use. If Oliva improved from short-term use because he didn't pussy out of the training the way Schwarzenegger did, it's likely it would've helped anyone else. Still no proof Arnold ever trained hard.
Don't be so impressed with 6 Olympias, some of which were due to politics. If you don't know that by now say hello to Santa for me in a couple of weeks.
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why do you say that? I honestly don't know if he's credible or not...he's written a ton of books so why isn't he credible?
Darden works for Nautilus. He's obviously going to try and discredit volume trainers like Arnold. ::)
My dad actually competed against Darden in a powerlifting meet in the early 60's and said that everyone hated him because he was such a little prick.
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mike mentzer didnt have a clue
I like when Mentzer said "that was 4 and a half seconds" when the guy was curling the weight, like unless it's EXACTLY 4 seconds it doesn't count and you won't grow. what a fool. Putting all your eggs in one basket is retarded.
Sarc qouted one of my favorite lines "everything works but nothing works forever".
The only thing that needs to be consistent in your workout is your mental effort and intensity.
Saying "I'm a DC trainer" or "i'm a volume trainer" is the same as saying "I'm going to adhere dogmatically to this one training philosophy because I'm a close-minded jackass....therefore hindering my progress because ultimately by body will adapt to this style and I'll stop growing"
Switch it up and keep your body guessing and growing. Worked for me.
PS going to absolute ball-frying failure on every set every day WILL overtax your CNS now matter how much you eat. your body needs time to recover from training, period.
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Darden works for Nautilus. He's obviously going to try and discredit volume trainers like Arnold. ::)
Too simple to assume that because he worked for them that he doesn't believe it works. The HIT guys always seemed arrogant but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.
Let's face it, almost all the sceptics of HIT have never done it as it's supposed to be done, with a training partner.
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Darden works for Nautilus. He's obviously going to try and discredit volume trainers like Arnold. ::)
My dad actually competed against Darden in a powerlifting meet in the early 60's and said that everyone hated him because he was such a little prick.
he has his perspective, that doesn't mean he's not credible...he says Franco did great while he was there and it was pretty much the same situation for both franco and arnold.
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I'm not an HIT proponent, but any good program when first tried might create improvement. Nothing to do with long-term use. If Oliva improved from short-term use because he didn't pussy out of the training the way Schwarzenegger did, it's likely it would've helped anyone else. Still no proof Arnold ever trained hard.
Don't be so impressed with 6 Olympias, some of which were due to politics. If you don't know that by now say hello to Santa for me in a couple of weeks.
or there could've been less than 6 and he would've injured himself just like yates.
at least arnold didnt stop due to injury
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Where's the proof he did? There's no way to know his unrealized potential because he never tried anything else, and possibly didn't train hard.
why would train hard be beneficial? i dont see any of the HIT guy winning any trophies. i did see dorian having to stop because of injuries though.
if arnold didnt train hard, in your definition, then that was probably a smart move.
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or there could've been less than 6 and he would've injured himself just like yates.
at least arnold didnt stop due to injury
Since Oliva & Viator were never injured it's also inaccurate to assume that it would always happen. Or as Viator did, going to lighter volume training pre-contest, because he thought it was better for refinement. Yates' injuries seemed to be a combination of heavy weight, HIT & dieting pre-contest, so it's not certain which part of that or all created the problems.
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I like when Mentzer said "that was 4 and a half seconds" when the guy was curling the weight, like unless it's EXACTLY 4 seconds it doesn't count and you won't grow. what a fool. Putting all your eggs in one basket is retarded.
Sarc qouted one of my favorite lines "everything works but nothing works forever".
The only thing that needs to be consistent in your workout is your mental effort and intensity.
Saying "I'm a DC trainer" or "i'm a volume trainer" is the same as saying "I'm going to adhere dogmatically to this one training philosophy because I'm a close-minded jackass....therefore hindering my progress because ultimately by body will adapt to this style and I'll stop growing"
Switch it up and keep your body guessing and growing. Worked for me.
PS going to absolute ball-frying failure on every set every day WILL overtax your CNS now matter how much you eat. your body needs time to recover from training, period.
pretty much everyone that knows metzer or has read his stuff or followed his career will tell you the same thing: he was f'n nuts at the end with some of his concepts. he just took everyhting so f'n far that they started to not make sense in the end, I'm assuming you're quoting him from the video he did right before he died....I've heard that he was pretty much whacked out of his mind at that time. A younger Mike metzer's writing and stuff was alot better read and made alot more sense.
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Since Oliva & Viator were never injured it's also inaccurate to assume that it would always happen. Or as Viator did, he went to lighter volume training pre-contest, because he thought it was better for refinement. Yates' injuries seemed to be a combination of heavy weight with dieting pre-contest, which might've been a problem in any kind of program.
so with arnold winning every competition he participated in, what exactly is it you think he should've accomplished by training differently? winning against imaginary opponents?
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so with arnold winning every competition he participated in, what exactly is it you think he should've accomplished by training differently? winning against imaginary opponents?
not to be a dick but arnold didn't win everything he entered and what pumpster is saying-or what i think he's saying is that arnold may have hampered his own potential by not trying different things.
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so with arnold winning every competition he participated in, what exactly is it you think he should've accomplished by training differently? winning against imaginary opponents?
Didn't make any difference in winning, because as Nubret has confirmed here on getbig, Schwarzenegger was protected/"sponsored" and wasn't going to lose if he showed up in shape.
The only difference might've been a physical improvement, just as Oliva got in his best shape in '72. That could have happened from the shock of trying any new program that was effective, especially being driven by an intense trainer like Jones & machines Oliva thought were often more effective than weights, but HIT was at least part of the equation. Other programs that were untired might've helped as well.
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Pumpster, Yates did not use HIT. He said, in numerous interviews that it didn't stimulate his muscles fully and he needed more sets. Please don't embarress youself any further by making false claims about Dorian. You already do that all the time about Ronnie ::)
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not to be a dick but arnold didn't win everything he entered and what pumpster is saying-or what i think he's saying is that arnold may have hampered his own potential by not trying different things.
he did win everything of importance. and so whatever other roads he could've take, it would serve no purpose.
yates on the other hand, who quit due to injury, could've benefiting following a different road.
and here you are criticizing arnold, who had nothing to win changing.
and defending yates, who had everything to win changing.
::)
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Pumpster, Yates did not use HIT. He said, in numerous interviews that it didn't stimulate his muscles fully and he needed more sets. Please don't embarress youself any further by making false claims about Dorian. You already do that all the time about Ronnie ::)
He used a modified version of HIT, after studying HIT and befriending & training with Mentzer, genius. hahaahahahahahahahahah
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Didn't make any difference in winning, because as Nubret has confirmed here on getbig, Schwarzenegger was protected/"sponsored" and wasn't going to lose if he showed up in shape.
The only difference might've been a physical improvement, just as Oliva got in his best shape in '72. That could have happened from the shock of trying any new program that was effective, especially being driven by an intense trainer like Jones & machines Oliva thought were often more effective than weights, but HIT was at least part of the equation. Other programs that were untired might've helped as well.
that's nubrets opinion and just that.
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that's nubrets opinion and just that.
No it's Nubret's, Oliva's & that of the majority of top BBs who left the IFBB in the early 80s because of hijinks-Padilla, Mentzer, Szkalak, Robinson, etc. vs. "Bluto's" unquestioning mainstream opinion as spoon fed to him over the years through Weider's publications and Pumping Iron. ::)
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pretty much everyone that knows metzer or has read his stuff or followed his career will tell you the same thing: he was f'n nuts at the end with some of his concepts. he just took everyhting so f'n far that they started to not make sense in the end, I'm assuming you're quoting him from the video he did right before he died....I've heard that he was pretty much whacked out of his mind at that time. A younger Mike metzer's writing and stuff was alot better read and made alot more sense.
I know dude it just struck me how he jumped on the dude for the rep not BEING EXACTLY 4 SECONDS. that made me LOL.
It's obvious the guy is completely shot, pretty sad to see actually.
IMO.......H.I.T. is just another way to lift weights. The lifting of the weights being far more important than the exact stlye in which you lift them. But it's good to have different training philosophies for people to adhere to, they are like toys for our hobby. No one wants to play with the same toy all the time.
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No it's Nubet's, Oliva's & that of the majority of top BBs who left the IFBB in the early 80s because of hijinks, vs. "Bluto's" unquestioning mainstream opinion as spoon fed to him over the years through Weider's publications and Pumping Iron. ::)
this is a pointless discussion, just most of the ones you participate in (dorian vs ronnie comes to mind)
arnold won everything. had no need to change, rather if he would've - he would probably end up winning less because of risk of injury being higher.
yates on the other hand, with his balls to the wall macho training, would've benefited training differently.
next.
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It's obvious the guy is completely shot, pretty sad to see actually.
Funny how much that's obsessed on when it's irrelevant.
IMO.......H.I.T. is just another way to lift weights. The lifting of the weights being far more important than the exact stlye in which you lift them. But it's good to have different training philosophies for people to adhere to, they are like toys for our hobby. No one wants to play with the same toy all the time.
Which makes the reaction to it here amusing. It's just another approach. No friggin' way should it be attacked without trying it for a decent amount of time in the way it's supposed to be done.
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this is a pointless discussion, just most of the ones you participate in (dorian vs ronnie comes to mind)
arnold won everything. had no need to change, rather if he would've - he would probably end up winning less because of risk of injury being higher.
yates on the other hand, with his balls to the wall macho training, would've benefited training differently.
next.
Then get your worthless ass off this thread if you don't comprehend that it's more than reciting history, can't handle new ideas and want to do nothing but whine, as usual.
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He used a modified version of HIT, after studying HIT and befriendin with & training with Mentzer, genius. hahaahahahahahahahahah
Added way more sets and training days - thus completely changing it. I will say this one more time: Dorian said on many occaisions that HIT did not stimulate his muscles fully and he needed more sets. Are you claiming that Dorian didn't know what he was saying?
One thing is for sure, neither Dorian, Mentzer or Arnold ever used a fucking bowflex.
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Added way more sets and training days - thus completely changing it. I will say this one more time: Dorian said on many occaisions that HIT did not stimulate his muscles fully and he needed more sets. Are you claiming that Dorian didn't know what he was saying?
One thing is for sure, neither Dorian, Mentzer or Arnold ever used a fucking bowflex.
I'll bet your dumb ass that Yates or Mentzer or Oliva would be open to trying one in the exact same way they were open to machines, because they're not stuck in 1948 with a free weight obsession as you are, genius. An openness to new approaches is what they and i will always have over dummies like you.LOL
No one except you thinks of Yates' program as anything other than modified HIT-even Yates says this, as does our genius "Bluto" here. ;D
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Added way more sets and training days - thus completely changing it. I will say this one more time: Dorian said on many occaisions that HIT did not stimulate his muscles fully and he needed more sets. Are you claiming that Dorian didn't know what he was saying?
One thing is for sure, neither Dorian, Mentzer or Arnold ever used a fucking bowflex.
What's wrong with a Bowflex?
Is it imaginary resistance?
I'm sure they have all tried one out or used one in a pinch with all the traveling they do, Especially Arnold
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What's wrong with a Bowflex?
Is it imaginary resistance?
hahahahaah Maybe 2/3s of BBs prove that they are pinheads by espousing only free weights. In part a macho-man thing let's face it. Never ceases to amaze the stupidiy of it.
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Then get your worthless ass off this thread if you don't comprehend that it's more than reciting history, can't handle new ideas and want to do nothing but whine, as usual.
new ideas? where?
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I'm beginning to see why ND and Sucky get so pissed off at you Pumpster. You ignore facts and spout spout nothing but delusional bullshit.
Bowflex is for people that are to scared / skinny / fat / ugly / poor or intelligent enough to use real weights in a real gym.
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pumpster's got way too much time on his hands.
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Bowflex is for people that are to scared / skinny / fat / ugly / poor or intelligent enough to use real weights in a real gym.
Or perhaps they see it for what it is....a resistance training machine. Before you start callng me a pussy.....i do go to a gym and have for the last 20 years, BUT if i had no options and wanted to work out I'd use the damn thing no problem.
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Or perhaps they see it for what it is....a resistance training machine. Before you start callng me a pussy.....i do go to a gym and have for the last 20 years, BUT if i had no options and wanted to work out I'd use the damn thing no problem.
They're fine if you're disabled or have some kind of mental deficiency. You are less inclined to hurt yourself on a bowflex than with real weights.
I apologise Pumpster. It must be tough having Downs Syndrome in an uncaring world. Train hard on that bowflex, become strong. you can do it!!!
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i think pumpster said it himself that it's important to try new things, so mixing it up going from the bullworker to the bowflex, is a big chance in his training regime ;D
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i think pumpster said it himself that it's important to try new things, so mixing it up going from the bullworker to the bowflex, is a big chance in his training regime ;D
Something "Bluto" at 155 lb. soaking wet, should consider in between Stallone & Seagal ball-worshipping sessions.
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I'm beginning to see why ND and Sucky get so pissed off at you Pumpster. You ignore facts and spout spout nothing but delusional bullshit.
Bowflex is for people that are to scared / skinny / fat / ugly / poor or intelligent enough to use real weights in a real gym.
I'm not the only one here who's wondering why you're obsessing on someone you don't know & about Bowflexes. LOL Unless you have ADD focus on the thread, don't worry about me.
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DOrian did use a variation of HIT .... that being HIgh intensity training. There are many variations of this, mentzers, arthur jones style, dorians style, trevor smith style.
All of which take the fundamentals of very very hard work in a short period of time. Working with lower volume and at least positive failure.
HIT doesnt mean one set routine, just like volume doesnt mean doing exactly 15 sets a body part. there are variations of both!!
It comes down to different strokes for different folks. Because you might not like a training style, or do not want to try it, does not mean it doesnt work.
I have done high volume in the past and didnt like it that much, that doesnt mean it doesnt work.
davie
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I'm not the only one here who's wondering why you're obsessing on someone you don't know & about Bowflexes. LOL Unless you have ADD focus on the thread, don't worry about me.
So people are PMing you asking why I keep on mentioning the boflex? Ha ha ha, try again 'Pumpster' ::)DOrian did use a variation of HIT .... that being HIgh intensity training. There are many variations of this, mentzers, arthur jones style, dorians style, trevor smith style.
All of which take the fundamentals of very very hard work in a short period of time. Working with lower volume and at least positive failure.
HIT doesnt mean one set routine, just like volume doesnt mean doing exactly 15 sets a body part. there are variations of both!!
It comes down to different strokes for different folks. Because you might not like a training style, or do not want to try it, does not mean it doesnt work.
I have done high volume in the past and didnt like it that much, that doesnt mean it doesnt work.
davie
You could just as easily say that Dorian used a variation of volume training - less sets and more intensity ;D
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No one's obsessed with Bowflexes other than you & your buddies Beavis & Butthead. You're all class with the company you keep. hahahaahahahhaah
No one else makes your silly claim about it being a variation of volume training-consider this a wake-up call on your warped perspectives.
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he did win everything of importance. and so whatever other roads he could've take, it would serve no purpose.
yates on the other hand, who quit due to injury, could've benefiting following a different road.
and here you are criticizing arnold, who had nothing to win changing.
and defending yates, who had everything to win changing.
::)
I think you've got me confussed with someone else, I never said a bad word about arnold all I said was I "read" he was lazy when he went to the nautilus facility to train. I don't know if he was lazy or not, the mags seem to say he wasn't, others say he was....I wasn't there so I don't know but I know weider had a hard on for jones and arnold wrote some articles bashing him when he got back or something like that so who knows what really went down.
Dorian did modify aspects of his training once he tore his bi..
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I think you've got me confussed with someone else, I never said a bad word about arnold all I said was I "read" he was lazy when he went to the nautilus facility to train. I don't know if he was lazy or not, the mags seem to say he wasn't, others say he was....I wasn't there so I don't know but I know weider had a hard on for jones and arnold wrote some articles bashing him when he got back or something like that so who knows what really went down.
Dorian did modify aspects of his training once he tore his bi..
Actually there's no confusion: any questioning of Schwarzenegger is an attack according to defensive nuthuggers.
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to bad this thread died so fast it was pretty damn fun......
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Actually there's no confusion: any questioning of Schwarzenegger is an attack according to defensive nuthuggers.
But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.
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But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.
exactly.
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But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.
That's an extremely defensive position. No one's gotten more praise than Schwarzenegger. Understand that the no. 1 Weider guy was immediately going to "accomplish more" in Weider's commercial BB world, just as Pumping Iron the movie embraced a Weider perspective that varied from the more balanced book presentation. There wasn't room for more than one star.
Disappointing the paucity of independant thought on getbig; most here have been brainwashed by years of Weider mags and Pumping Iron reruns, weren't there to see more balanced perspectives & refuse to wide the perspectives.
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That's an extremely defensive position. Understand that the no. 1 Weider guy was immediately going to "accomplish more" in Weider's BB world, just as Pumping Iron the movie embraced a Weider perspective that varied from the more accurate book presentation. There wasn't room for more than one star.
Disappointing the paucity of independant thought on getbig; most here have been brainwashed by years of Weider mags and Pumping Iron reruns, weren't there to see more balanced perspectives & refuse to wide the perspectives.
But then despite all the wins by Yates, Haney and Coleman that Arnold will forever be the most reknowned BBer? Fans follow the sport and make up thier own minds IMO.
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But then despite all the wins by Yates, Haney and Coleman that Arnold will forever be the most reknowned BBer? Fans follow the sport and make up thier own minds IMO.
Being renowned and being one of the top BBs ever are two different things that are confused. Years of Weider mags including yet another Schwarzenegger cover tend to distort realities, for some.
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But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.
I would never say arnolds methods don't have merrit....what I say is if you train like him today and that's all you do you limit yourself, there's always new stuff to try, some works some does not but don't be close minded especially if your a natural guy cause all the rules change once you decide to train without enhancements.
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you both keep saying there's new things to try, why not tell us a little bit of these new things that you discovered and these new methods that didnt exist before?
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you both keep saying there's new things to try, why not tell us a little bit of these new things that you discovered and these new methods that didnt exist before?
Anyone with time can expend the effort to try to explain something to this troll, who will then dismiss it inside of 5 minutes without ever trying it.
Can anyone confirm that this dweeb has ever worked out?
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you both keep saying there's new things to try, why not tell us a little bit of these new things that you discovered and these new methods that didnt exist before?
there's literally tons of stuff to try. Will it all work? Nope but it all has merit. Pre-exhaust, double pre exhaust, super slow negatives, negative only training, rest pause training....
I've done tons of things over the last 10 years, some for extended periods of time some for only a few weeks some I only did a couple of times. I did tons of reading while I was in school.
I experimented with traditional rest pause methods as described by metzer but I found that it was extremely taxing on the CNS and the joints in general. I got stronger but I found that some movements just didn't work using this method, it's catered more towards machine training-which I dont' have a problem with today but did at the time.
what do you want to know about specifically?
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Anyone with time can expend the effort to try to explain something to this troll, who will then dismiss it inside of 5 minutes without ever trying it.
Can anyone confirm that this dweeb has ever worked out?
pumpster is backed into a corner and has no way out and we've confirmed you ' work-out ' lmfao if thats what you wanna call it ! then again you can bench 410 power rods pounds for 15 full consectutive reps lol
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there's literally tons of stuff to try. Will it all work? Nope but it all has merit. Pre-exhaust, double pre exhaust, super slow negatives, negative only training, rest pause training....
I've done tons of things over the last 10 years, some for extended periods of time some for only a few weeks some I only did a couple of times. I did tons of reading while I was in school.
I experimented with traditional rest pause methods as described by metzer but I found that it was extremely taxing on the CNS and the joints in general. I got stronger but I found that some movements just didn't work using this method, it's catered more towards machine training-which I dont' have a problem with today but did at the time.
what do you want to know about specifically?
So why do you experience so much? Unhappy with your progress? I can't think of a reason why I would start doing super slow negative or any of that stuff.
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So why do you experience so much? Unhappy with your progress? I can't think of a reason why I would start doing super slow negative or any of that stuff.
when I went back to school about 8 years ago I decided I wasn't gonna put training first but what I did do was read about everything I could get my hands on and try tons of different stuff. So I'd go to the gym when I could and try things and record my initial thoughts and if I stuck with it I monitored my progress on that specific program for howeveer long I used it. I tried to figure out what allowed me to recover the fastest and what made sense and what didn't.
I did some negative only training for a short period of time, I still put alot of emphasis on the negative portion of the movement but it's more centered around controlling the movement...basically if I want to stop the nagative at any point I can. I also played around last year with a technique that metzer used...I dont' remember what it was called but you stop the weight 3 times during the negative phase of the movement...I called them triple stops but I dont' remember what he called them. This really upped the intesity and stopped any momentum from coming into play at any point in the movement but since I was training using DC's methods I didn't feel that it fit that protocol well cause my weights in some movements were stagnating.
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I did max-ot for awhile and thought it was really good. A very well thought out program with lots of benefit to the average trainer. I didn't modify a thing, did it almost to the letter. Very heavy compound movements following thier descriptions of the execution of each movement. I had no problem for a few months then my right arm began to hurt in a way that I have not felt since, my bicep tendon was killing me, to the point where I couldn't straighten out my arm. I got a brace and did alot of movements using that but no direct work for my bi's for a few months. I eventually worked through it but that really made me think about the program, I started getting to the point where I was moving some really heavy ass weights for 4-8 reps but I started having more and more problems with my joints..shoulders, knees...
I guess if I was gonna use this type of training again I'd modify a few things and try cycling in and out a little more...kinda like blasting and cruising in DC.
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or you could stop 4-8 reps alltogether.
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or you could stop 4-8 reps alltogether.
well...that's kinda what the whole routine is based around so that would kinda defeat the purpose of doing "max-ot" wouldn't it?
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well...that's kinda what the whole routine is based around so that would kinda defeat the purpose of doing "max-ot" wouldn't it?
yup
;)
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yup
;)
bluto, I'm a little disapointed in you. Seems you only came into this thread to be a troll and argue, I thought the discussion was fine...I don't really get what your motives are. I wasn't being a dick to anybody, I never put down arnolds way of training, I never said a bad word to anybody. If you want to be a dick that's fine but I've been pretty nice so far....if you are trying to be a smart ass it ain't working, you're just kinda looking ignorant at this point.
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bluto, I'm a little disapointed in you. Seems you only came into this thread to be a troll and argue, I thought the discussion was fine...I don't really get what your motives are. I wasn't being a dick to anybody, I never put down arnolds way of training, I never said a bad word to anybody. If you want to be a dick that's fine but I've been pretty nice so far....if you are trying to be a smart ass it ain't working, you're just kinda looking ignorant at this point.
or maybe im having different opinions that dont go along with yours and pumpsters.
if you injured yourself doing 4-6 reps then dont do 4-6 reps.
that's a pretty good advice.
arnold, serge, haney, coleman etc did fine without doing 4-6 reps.
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or maybe im having different opinions that dont go along with yours and pumpsters.
if you injured yourself doing 4-6 reps then dont do 4-6 reps.
that's a pretty good advice.
arnold, serge, haney, coleman etc did fine without doing 4-6 reps.
seems like no matter what anybody says you come back with the same answer time and time again. Bottom line is I think max-ot is a very good and well thought out routine, it's far and away from what I do right now but I still think it's a good routine and I don't see the problem with looking at it and trying it out. Like I said it might not have been the rep range that caused me problems it could have been something simple that I was doing that I didn't realize, maybe I needed to warm up a little better or maybe I could have cycled my intesity a little better. I'm not perfect, coulda been alot of things.
if you wanna do volume more power to ya, I'm not putting down volume at all, I was just having fun with talking about different concepts and my experiences with them and trying to give a little advice.
what types of training have you tried? Have you even considered any other options or are you just locked into volume for the sake of volume?
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im leaning towards that fewer reps and sets can be beneficial for strength and for mass you need more volume
yeah buddy
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im leaning towards that fewer reps and sets can be beneficial for strength and for mass you need more volume
yeah buddy
see I dont' have a problem with that. I think you got me wrong. I dont' think volume training is a waste, it like anything has it's merit. For along time everybody I knew did medium wieght, medieum reps and pretty high volume, it wasn't until I started looking into and trying different things did I stop thinking volume was the be all end all in training.
I would say this if I was gonna do any type of volume training....first, I'd stick with a push pull set up-back, bi's and forearms on one day, legs on another and chest, shoulders and tri's-second I'd do about 10-16 sets depending on the size of the bodypart and third, I'd really, really monitor my recovery, first sign of overtraining I'd cut back a little.
I don't believe a persons recovery ability changes very dramatically, in other words I don't think you can build it up so the stronger you get or the more work you do the closer you have to watch things.
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Once again, WHY would you even THINK about risking UNDER-TRAINING by using HIT? At the end of the day, would you have less respect for yourself if you'd UNDER-TRAINED or OVER-TRAINED? The "over-training" crutch the HIT people use is a BULLSHIT excuse for being lazy. Period.
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Once again, WHY would you even THINK about risking UNDER-TRAINING by using HIT? At the end of the day, would you have less respect for yourself if you'd UNDER-TRAINED or OVER-TRAINED? The "over-training" crutch the HIT people use is a BULLSHIT excuse for being lazy. Period.
to some extent I agree, I don't think that over training should even be entering his mind.
LOL, The guys does 10 hard reps and worries about over training....oh my god, what would happen if he did 15 reps?
Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.
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Once again, WHY would you even THINK about risking UNDER-TRAINING by using HIT? At the end of the day, would you have less respect for yourself if you'd UNDER-TRAINED or OVER-TRAINED? The "over-training" crutch the HIT people use is a BULLSHIT excuse for being lazy. Period.
first of all if you know what your doing and you're using the proper techniques you can work very hard while utilizing low volume. Do I think the whole 1 set per bodypart done in conventional fashion will work? Nope, that's not really what HIT in it's purest sense is all about and most things that have evolved from HIT don't really take that stance.
When you say HIT what is your definition?
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to some extent I agree, I don't think that over training should even be entering his mind.
LOL, The guys does 10 hard reps and worries about over training....oh my god, what would happen if he did 15 reps?
Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.
if your talking about me, for the most part when I train I don't worry about overtraining, I know what I'm capable of and I would never do one set of 10 reps and call it a day...and yes I do some crazy shit when I train but with the things I have going on in life I have to train on my lunch hour these days so I work as hard as humanly possible in the hour I have. I've learned what works for me and I am as efficiant as hell in the gym.
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Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.
Thank GOD someone here has some SENSE.
Over-training is NOT POSSIBLE for 95% of the people who EVER enter into the realm of bodybuilding. Why? Because they don't combine INTENSITY with VOLUME. Dumbasses on here who do HIT (a couple "warm-up" sets followed by one to failure...no more than an hour per workout..etc.) are just flat out LAZY.
I ask ALL of you HIT idiots this, again:
WHY would you take ANY ANGLE IN LIFE that consists of you taking the RISK of accomplishing MORE by doing LESS rather than pushing your body to the max and encompassing VOLUME in your workouts? You do realize that any-and-everyone that you talk to about your "HIT-training" knows that you are just lazy, correct?
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lol.
That guy groaning in the Mentzer training tape like he's in a porno movie is hilarious. Imagine if some clown was doing that in the gym. That's so contrived.
Obviously, Ah-nold had the superior physique. So Ah-nold had the best technique.
Really, all you need to do is work the muscle until it's pumped and then stop. That's how Vince Gironda trained, and he's natural.
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II also played around last year with a technique that metzer used...I dont' remember what it was called but you stop the weight 3 times during the negative phase of the movement...I called them triple stops but I dont' remember what he called them.
Stutter reps.
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You could just as easily say that Dorian used a variation of volume training - less sets and more intensity ;D
Yes just as u could say arnold used a variation of intensity training - less intensity and more sets!!
Its never gonna b resolveed!! and the volume followers are right that arnold was amazing and followed high volume, but alot of the other top physiques at the time used fewer sets and higher intensity.
To call HIT users fat and lazy is just stupid. Especially wen in reality the training is far more intelligent. Intensity is work x time, it seems they all know that working out for hours getting a good looking pump, will not bring about the same growth as 1/2 hour workign as hard as u can.
Most folk love lifting weights while looking about the gym for approval from other lifters, They dont like the idea of workouts that are hard and painful to finish and require huge levels of mental strength and will power, and all their focus!!
davie
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To call HIT users fat and lazy is just stupid. Especially wen in reality the training is far more intelligent. Intensity is work x time, it seems they all know that working out for hours getting a good looking pump, will not bring about the same growth as 1/2 hour workign as hard as u can.
Most folk love lifting weights while looking about the gym for approval from other lifters, They dont like the idea of workouts that are hard and painful to finish and require huge levels of mental strength and will power, and all their focus!!
davie
why would hit training be far more intelligent? why would they have the same growth in 1/2 hour?
and i'd say being to the gym for hours would be very tough, hell i'm glad i don't follow a high reps training that's tough for me, doing an endless number of reps.
low reps are easy on the mind.
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Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.
Thank GOD someone here has some SENSE.
Over-training is NOT POSSIBLE for 95% of the people who EVER enter into the realm of bodybuilding. Why? Because they don't combine INTENSITY with VOLUME. Dumbasses on here who do HIT (a couple "warm-up" sets followed by one to failure...no more than an hour per workout..etc.) are just flat out LAZY.
I ask ALL of you HIT idiots this, again:
WHY would you take ANY ANGLE IN LIFE that consists of you taking the RISK of accomplishing MORE by doing LESS rather than pushing your body to the max and encompassing VOLUME in your workouts? You do realize that any-and-everyone that you talk to about your "HIT-training" knows that you are just lazy, correct?
[/b]
90% of the natural guys out there that have been training for an extended amount of time and look the exact same as they did a year ago are over trained. Once a muscle hits a certain point that's all it needs, after that you're not stimulating muscle growth your tapping into your recovery ability and once you start to do that you begin to put stress on your CNS and then you overtrain. Now there are a select few guys out there that can go and go and go and not evertrain but for the average guy eventually you're gonna hit a wall. this is especially true IMO of ectomorphs, I think they have the tendencie to overtrain.
the bolder part of your statement proves one thing to me. You have no idea how to work hard at anything in life. You have no idea of what any aspect of HIT training is about, you're accomplishing more or jsut about the same in a shorter period of time...what's wrong with that?
What exactly is your definition of HIT? Do you have any idea what it is about? Do you know any concepts? Anything? sounds like you're talking out of your ass at this point, I asked you earlier and you said nothing. It's an easy question so answer it.
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HIT in it's purest form:
"You'll get to see Casey's final workout," explained Arthur Jones, the developer of Nautilus equipment, over the phone. "Why don't you drive down tomorrow?"
The date was June 9, 1971. I hadn't seen Casey Viator in several months, so I was anxious to view him working out. Jones had been training Viator on and off for eleven months. Everyone interested in bodybuilding at that time was following the escapades of Jones and Viator through IronMan magazine.
Their big test was the 1971 AAU Mr. America contest, which was to be held in York, Pennsylvania, in three days . . . on June 12th.
"After observing Casey train," he continued in his baritone voice, "you'll be able to judge for yourself whether he'll beat that big red-headed bastard or not." That redheaded "bastard" Jones was referring to was Ken Waller, who'd placed second to Chris Dickerson the year before. Waller was well prepared and purportedly next in line to win the Mr. America in 1971.
You can read the entire exercise-by-exercise report of Casey's workout, which involved doing a single set of 15 different exercises, on pages 18 and 19 of my 2004 book, The New HIT. Without being overly redundant, I want to comment on just two of Viator's exercises — the barbell squat and the triceps extension—just to give you a taste of how brutal a workout can be.
But first, let me describe the workout setting.
A Musty, Muscle-Building Emporium
Prior to completing his 20-acre Nautilus headquarters in Lake Helen, Florida in 1974, Jones' training facility was situated behind the DeLand High School in an old army, semi-circular, Quonset hut. The hut was dimly lit, humid, and musty-smelling. The floors were concrete and there was no reliable heating or cooling in the structure. High-school athletes and a few local fitness buffs used the facility, along with Jones and a few select bodybuilders.
As you entered through the front door, you'd see a Universal Gym machine on the right and a Nautilus Combination Biceps/Triceps Machine on the left. At the far end were prototypes of the Nautilus Pullover, Behind Neck, and Rowing Machines. In the middle were squat racks, several old Olympic barbells, and half a dozen dumbbells.
This was where Jones had challenged Arnold Schwarzenegger and Franco Columbu. After three workouts, Arnold left in a huff, his ego damaged, while Franco thrived and stayed for another week.
The hut's surroundings were ordinary, but when Jones was there with his entourage, the gym became electric. Arthur would bark orders as his assistants prepared the equipment and visitors with eyes as big as 5-pound plates would hang around the door.
Jones definitely filled the place with old-school muscle-building excitement.
Viator, who usually showed up 5 minutes before Jones arrived, told me that his heart rate would double when Jones walked into the gym. "He kept me pissed off most of the time," remembered Casey, "with all his intimidation tactics and demands. No one could get me into the max-training mode the way Arthur could. I hated what he made me do during my workouts . . . but I loved the results."
Larry Gilmore remembers the facility's special "ambience" well: "Due to the workout's intensity and pace, plus the lack of circulating air, we sweated gallons during each workout. And the air in the Quonset hut was usually foul due to guys missing the bucket when they had to puke. But you know what? You could sure get a ball-busting workout, if you had a mind to."
And a ball-busting workout is exactly what I saw Casey Viator do.
At approximately 9 o'clock on the night of June 10, 1971, Viator did 13 repetitions in the squat with a 500-pound barbell on his back. None of his reps were half squats. They were all ass-to-heels, full squats – performed after he pre-exhausted with 750 pounds on the Universal machine leg press for 20 reps, followed by 225 pounds on the Universal machine leg extension for another 20 reps . . . with no rest between the exercises.
That's right, Jones pushed Viator through a double pre-exhaustion cycle: leg press, leg extension, and squat, performed back-to-back-to-back . . . with very heavy weights, in good form, for maximum repetitions . . . which was the ultimate in HIGH INTENSITY.
I'd never seen anything like this leg cycle. Can you imagine squatting with a 500-pound barbell 13 times . . . after pre-exhausting your thighs?
Jones was on the left side of Viator encouraging him – or I should say shouting at him: "Slow down! Hold your head up! Keep going! Don't quit! Think about that big redhead's thighs! Goddamn it, Casey, get three more! Breathe deeply. That's it, that's it! Now . . . one more!"
It worked. Viator exceeded Jones's expectations. His heart rate must have been more than 220 beats per minute for at least 2 minutes. I'd never imagined such intensity was possible – ever.
Early in 2005, I interviewed Casey and he remembered that workout well (it'd be difficult to forget). "I planned to hold back a little on those squats because I knew I had a bunch more stuff to do, but with 500 pounds on my back and the adrenalin flowing, all I could do was think 'Get 10 reps.' I was really surprised when I got 12 and couldn't believe I made 13. I knew then that the workout was going to be a real bitch."
A real bitch it was. From my 45 years of training experience, that three-exercise leg cycle was the most demanding and impressive series that I've ever observed.
Jones talked about it later and concluded that "Paul Anderson (who, at one time, was considered the world's strongest man), in his best condition, could have duplicated Viator's leg cycle, but to do so, he'd had to have an injection of Novocain in each thigh to combat the pain. Furthermore, if Anderson had survived this feat, he'd have probably died afterward."
Viator not only performed that cycle in championship style, but after a two-minute rest and some water, he continued his workout. His next-to-last movement, in his 15-exercise routine, was the triceps extension performed on the Nautilus Combination Biceps/Triceps Machine.
Kick-Ass Triceps
On that night, Jones loaded Casey's triceps with 125 pounds – which was more than I ever saw anyone use on that plate-loading arm machine, particularly at the end of a routine. Maybe 125 pounds doesn't sound like a lot of weight, but this Nautilus Triceps station placed him into a tight, vertical position that made it impossible to cheat. Only his triceps were called into action on this precision exercise.
Casey initiated the repetitions deliberately . . . one by one, from a full stretch to maximum contraction and back. Again, Jones was near his ear, urging him to pause, lower slowly, and continue.
At repetition 8, Viator was spent . . . he couldn't quite make the contracted position, even with Jones's coaxing. Jones calmly looked him in the eyes and said: "That redhead in California is going to get the best of you." That motivated Viator into finishing number 8 and, in fact, making another rep in better form than the one before. The 10th rep, however, was a no-go. Casey couldn't get it started. He'd reached true failure.
In an instant, Jones had two assistants lift Viator out of the sweat-dampened triceps machine and hustle him over to the nearby parallel-dip bars.
I could tell Casey did NOT like the idea of doing dips . . . especially after punishing his triceps on the previous machine.
But then, Casey seemed to get a second wind – no, it was a third or fourth wind – and mounted the parallel bars and started his dips.
He was near the end of the hardest-training session I've ever witnessed and he'd just finished blasting his triceps on a Nautilus machine. Could he really be expected to do more than 3 or 4 dips?
That, in fact, is the very question I asked Arthur as I peered over his shoulder and studied Casey's previous workout on his chart.
"Three or 4 reps, you say," Jones noted. "He'll do 20 . . . or I'll kick his ass up around his shoulders."
Up and down Viator went as if his arms were connected to a couple of well-oiled pistons. The first 10 were slow, smooth, and steady. The second 10 were a bit faster, with Jones questioning his manhood on 18, 19, and 20. The final two (reps 21 and 22) were painfully s-l-o-w, with Viator's upper body drenched in sweat and his triceps, deltoids, and pecs almost vibrating through his skin.
"Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah," bellowed Casey from deep within his lungs as Arthur commanded him to do a controlled lowering on the final rep.
The Final Pose Down
As Viator sunk to one knee, Jones smiled ever so slightly. His work was almost completed.
He let Casey slither over to a jug of cold water and linger for a couple of minutes. In the interim, he noted that Viator's entire workout – legs, back, shoulders, chest, and arms – had taken exactly 27 minutes and 40 seconds. Jones claimed they'd have finished in 25 minutes or less, if the gym hadn't been so damn crowded.
Then Jones signaled to Viator: "Come over here. Take off your shirt and let's see how you look."
First, Casey hit a double-biceps pose. All of the dozen or so people in the room, with the exception of Jones, were dumbfounded. His arms resembled wet footballs with pulsating veins.
Second, he went into a side-chest pose and his deltoids and pecs looked as if they were armor plated and about 18-inches thick. Then, he spun 90 degrees and hit a back pose. There was nothing but mounds of muscle on top of more muscle from his hips to his neck, with striations everywhere.
Even in the dimly lit Quonset hut, Casey's back, shoulders, chest, and arms seemed to glow and be lit with some internal fire. When he contracted intensely, his muscles appeared as if they were about to erupt from his skin.
I'd entered the 1969 and 1970 AAU Mr. America contests, so I'd seen most of the top bodybuilders at that time do their posing routines, but I'd never seen anyone as massive, as cut, and as explosive in a pose . . . as was Casey Viator that night.
The Winner Is . . .
From what I observed that night, I was sure Viator would defeat Ken Waller and win the Mr. America title. Interestingly, two days later, Waller was disqualified from the Amateur Athletic Union for appearing in a non-sanctioned, exercise-related magazine advertisement several months earlier. Thus, the Viator/Waller confrontation never occurred.
But Casey competed against 32 other men on June 12th and easily won the 1971 AAU Mr. America.
I overheard one of the judges say, "Viator was simply overpowering!" Sure, but I thought to myself, "Was it Viator – or Jones – who was overpowering? Or, was it their combined talents working together?"
After the 1971 Mr. America, Viator had plans to enter the NABBA Mr. Universe, which was scheduled for early September in London, England. Unfortunately, Casey had a disagreement with Jones and took a leave of absence from training for several months and he didn't go to the Mr. Universe event.
Furthermore, after that June 10, 1971, supervised workout, Jones never again trained Viator seriously. No, I take that back. He did train Viator 14 times in May of 1973 during the Colorado Experiment. But that was a part of a research project and not for a bodybuilding championship.
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why would hit training be far more intelligent? why would they have the same growth in 1/2 hour?
and i'd say being to the gym for hours would be very tough, hell i'm glad i don't follow a high reps training that's tough for me, doing an endless number of reps.
low reps are easy on the mind.
You kind of answered ur own question, it si more intelliegent b/c u can gtet more growth in 1/2 the time!!
I have busted my ass at volume and have been stuck on weights for weeks and weeks. Now doing HIT style approach (i dont pre-exhaust except for shoulders and legs) i am finding my weights go up alot more regularly, and so far some weights are going up eery week!!
I get in, bust my ass and get out so i can start recovering. Someone mentioned before that long workouts take alot out of energy stores, and the body in general - that means alot of recovery and food u consume has to 1st of all repare those energy stores etc before it gets on to the job of really rebuilding muscles and helping them grow.
With less tiem spent working out, and yes the energy stores are depleted from very hard work, but not from making the whole body tired from long workouts, then the food and rest u have right after training can get to work on repairing and building muscle.
davie
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You kind of answered ur own question, it si more intelliegent b/c u can gtet more growth in 1/2 the time!!
I have busted my ass at volume and have been stuck on weights for weeks and weeks. Now doing HIT style approach (i dont pre-exhaust except for shoulders and legs) i am finding my weights go up alot more regularly, and so far some weights are going up eery week!!
I get in, bust my ass and get out so i can start recovering. Someone mentioned before that long workouts take alot out of energy stores, and the body in general - that means alot of recovery and food u consume has to 1st of all repare those energy stores etc before it gets on to the job of really rebuilding muscles and helping them grow.
With less tiem spent working out, and yes the energy stores are depleted from very hard work, but not from making the whole body tired from long workouts, then the food and rest u have right after training can get to work on repairing and building muscle.
davie
good post.
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I stopped believing that nonsense when he claimed Paul Anderson couldn't have done the leg workout ::)
Next we'll be hearing that Mariusz couldn't do one Natrual Als' leg workouts ::)
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I stopped believing that nonsense when he claimed Paul Anderson couldn't have done the leg workout ::)
Next we'll be hearing that Mariusz couldn't do one Natrual Als' leg workouts ::)
yeah, paul anderson had such good cardio, he'd have no problem with that type of workout ;D ;D
I didn't write the article, don't dog me, I just thought it was a fun read.
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lol.
That guy groaning in the Mentzer training tape like he's in a porno movie is hilarious. Imagine if some clown was doing that in the gym. That's so contrived.
Obviously, Ah-nold had the superior physique. So Ah-nold had the best technique.
Really, all you need to do is work the muscle until it's pumped and then stop. That's how Vince Gironda trained, and he's natural.
People with closed minds and limited perspectives are boring. They don't have the intelligence to make for an interesting debate, always take the low road with dumb unfunny posts that crack them up but that no one else cares about. Trying to communicate with trolls (and inform, since they lack sophistication) who think they know better is a waste of time.
The only reason to take the time to list some advantages to any program other than volume is for others reading, not the mental midgets on here posting stupid replies. The ones who understand that volume works but that there may be more effective & efficient means to do same, and who like the challenge of something inherently more athletic. Comprehending these simple concepts eems to be very very difficult for some, and necessitates speaking to them like children.
I especially love the kindergarden-level logic about Schwarzenegger having the best physique therefore knowing the most, it's priceless and child-like. The nonsense about Gironda's training is also rich.
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You guys are never going to agree. Just accept that some things work for some people and not for others. I've tried both and my body responds to something in the middle. You may be different. But continue arguing - it's funny.
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You guys are never going to agree. Just accept that some things work for some people and not for others. I've tried both and my body responds to something in the middle. You may be different. But continue arguing - it's funny.
I agree tho i dont think its meant to be an argument. I think the HIT followers on here (or actually just those who dont have tunnel vision with regards to training) do agree that volume of all kinds can work, but that there are other forms of training that also work, or might b better.
The volume lovers here think volume works and thats it.
davie
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You guys are never going to agree. Just accept that some things work for some people and not for others. I've tried both and my body responds to something in the middle. You may be different. But continue arguing - it's funny.
I wasn't arguing with anyone....just having a discussion...
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You guys are never going to agree. Just accept that some things work for some people and not for others. I've tried both and my body responds to something in the middle. You may be different. But continue arguing - it's funny.
Unintentionally you're part of the comedy. There's no argument except in your mind. Also wrong to assume that there has to be some kind of agreement to make this worthwhile.
Here's some classic, uninspiring volume training. No one's saying he doesn't look good but i wonder what that physique would look like on someone with balls, willing to push the envelope:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=112780.0
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Unintentionally you're part of the comedy. There's no argument except in your mind. Also wrong to assume that there has to be some kind of agreement to make this worthwhile.
Here's some classic, uninspiring volume training. No one's saying he doesn't look good but i wonder what that physique would look like on someone willing to push the envelope:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=112780.0
Oh no, don't misunderstand me, this IS what makes this board worthwhile.
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;D
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You kind of answered ur own question, it si more intelliegent b/c u can gtet more growth in 1/2 the time!!
I have busted my ass at volume and have been stuck on weights for weeks and weeks. Now doing HIT style approach (i dont pre-exhaust except for shoulders and legs) i am finding my weights go up alot more regularly, and so far some weights are going up eery week!!
I get in, bust my ass and get out so i can start recovering. Someone mentioned before that long workouts take alot out of energy stores, and the body in general - that means alot of recovery and food u consume has to 1st of all repare those energy stores etc before it gets on to the job of really rebuilding muscles and helping them grow.
With less tiem spent working out, and yes the energy stores are depleted from very hard work, but not from making the whole body tired from long workouts, then the food and rest u have right after training can get to work on repairing and building muscle.
davie
so what there can be a number of reasons you were stuck on the same weights.
if youre gonna go to failure all the time you need a lot of rest and because you're resting a lot you dont hit the gym as often as you could.
compare a volume training approach where you work your whole body twice or maybe even three times in a week with just once every week or every 10 days.
then your hit approach much produce 2-3 times the result to compare.
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People with closed minds and limited perspectives are boring. They don't have the intelligence to make for an interesting debate, always take the low road with dumb unfunny posts that crack them up but that no one else cares about. Trying to communicate with trolls (and inform, since they lack sophistication) who think they know better is a waste of time.
The only reason to take the time to list some advantages to any program other than volume is for others reading, not the mental midgets on here posting stupid replies. The ones who understand that volume works but that there may be more effective & efficient means to do same, and who like the challenge of something inherently more athletic. Comprehending these simple concepts eems to be very very difficult for some, and necessitates speaking to them like children.
I especially love the kindergarden-level logic about Schwarzenegger having the best physique therefore knowing the most, it's priceless and child-like. The nonsense about Gironda's training is also rich.
yeah there's more effective and efficent means to train - even more volume, even less intensity.
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yeah there's more effective and efficent means to train - even more volume, even less intensity
Brilliant.
Bluto, in a recent pic:
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There's no correlation between high intensity, going to failure each set etc and gaining muscle mass.
There IS however a correlation between high intensity, going to failure each set etc and injury, frying the CNS which means you would be FORCED to train less often and because of this grow slower.
As well as feeding your ego so you can be a MACHO MACHO MAN and wear "shut up and squat!!!" t-shirts at the gym.
hope this helps.
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There's no correlation between high intensity, going to failure each set etc and gaining muscle mass.
There IS however a correlation between high intensity, going to failure each set etc and injury, frying the CNS which means you would be FORCED to train less often and because of this grow slower.
As well as feeding your ego so you can be a MACHO MACHO MAN and wear "shut up and squat!!!" t-shirts at the gym.
hope this helps.
The words of a sage. ::) Notice he talks in absolutes, as if all of this is fact.
That whole theory burning out the CNS is unproven, but is a convenient excuse for taking it easy. The length of time needed for recovery is highly debatable. 2-3 days time is usually more than enough to many, in fact there's just as much evidence that resting longer than that allows the muscles to regress, from disuse.
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The words of a sage. ::)
That whole theory burning out the CNS is unproven, but is a convenient excuse for taking it easy. The length of time needed for recovery is highly debatable. 2-3 days time is usually more than enough, in fact there's just as much evidence that resting longer than that allows the muscles to regress from disuse.
2-3 days is nothing. and if there's ONE thing we CAN monitor - it's the csn. that's the reason mentzer recommended up to 14 days between muscle groups, because his whole approach to intensity fried the cns.
only problem is this:
you gonna work one muscle group every 2 weeks, you not gonna do a lot of work in a year. and you will grow reaaaaaal slow.
so if you wanna train hard at the gym so you can be all macho and dance around to village people's macho man record and grow in 3 years what others grow in 1 year then by all means stick to this kind of training.
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2-3 days is nothing. and if there's ONE thing we CAN monitor - it's the csn. that's the reason mentzer recommended up to 14 days between muscle groups, because his whole approach to intensity fried the cns.
only problem is this:
you gonna work one muscle group every 2 weeks, you not gonna do a lot of work in a year. and you will grow reaaaaaal slow.
so if you wanna train hard at the gym so you can be all macho and dance around to village people's macho man record and grow in 3 years what others grow in 1 year then by all means stick to this kind of training.
Thank god he has it all figured out for the rest of us.
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2-3 days is nothing. and if there's ONE thing we CAN monitor - it's the csn. that's the reason mentzer recommended up to 14 days between muscle groups, because his whole approach to intensity fried the cns.
only problem is this:
you gonna work one muscle group every 2 weeks, you not gonna do a lot of work in a year. and you will grow reaaaaaal slow.
so if you wanna train hard at the gym so you can be all macho and dance around to village people's macho man record and grow in 3 years what others grow in 1 year then by all means stick to this kind of training.
metzer said that 14 days rest stuff at the end when he was kinda nuts, I wouldn't look to much into what he was preaching the last few years he was alive.
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Thank god he has it all figured out for the rest of us.
well the majority doesnt train the way you propose they should, and their results are real.
so that's clear evidence in your face. now your response to that is "well if they did they would look even better" (even arnold!) but that's one lame remark, one can ALWAYS say that.
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Even the guys that do HIT justify more sets than Mentzer called for. Yates, Dugdale, Labarada all did more because they know they needed to, to some extent.
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well the majority doesnt train the way you propose they should, and their results are real.
so that's clear evidence in your face. now your response to that is "well if they did they would look even better" (even arnold!) but that's one lame remark, one can ALWAYS say that.
I haven't proposed a specific way. Wrong again.
As far as Schwarzenegger, it's clear from Oliva and others that improvement was made. That doesn't mean the program was better than others, but would've been worth using to supplement what was already achieved. There's strong evidence to anyone with an open mind, which means excluding Bluto who already figured out all training issues.
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metzer said that 14 days rest stuff at the end when he was kinda nuts, I wouldn't look to much into what he was preaching the last few years he was alive.
7 days, 10 days, 14 days or not - the formula is still the same - the more intense, the bigger need for rest, the bigger the rest the less days you can work your body and the less you work your body the less chances to build muscle.
UNLESS of course you can build more muscles by working your muscles every 7th, 10th or 14th day than every OTHER day.
which i do not believe.
especially since that hardcore approach sooner or later will cause you injuries, problems with your joints, fucking up your immune system making you sick etc which will set you back even MORE days in a year.
so do the math.
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7 days, 10 days, 14 days or not - the formula is still the same - the more intense, the bigger need for rest, the bigger the rest the less days you can work your body and the less you work your body the less chances to build muscle.
UNLESS of course you can build more muscles by working your muscles every 7th, 10th or 14th day than every OTHER day.
which i do not believe.
especially since that hardcore approach sooner or later will cause you injuries, problems with your joints, fucking up your immune system making you sick etc which will set you back even MORE days in a year.
so do the math.
FYI trying to reason with the closed-minded is pointless.
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so what there can be a number of reasons you were stuck on the same weights.
if youre gonna go to failure all the time you need a lot of rest and because you're resting a lot you dont hit the gym as often as you could.
compare a volume training approach where you work your whole body twice or maybe even three times in a week with just once every week or every 10 days.
then your hit approach much produce 2-3 times the result to compare.
Actually iv done 2 times a week and 3 with volume, but after an hour of endless sets high or low reps the body gets v run down and tired.
I train each body part once every 7 days. But ur wrong in as much as u can train with sum variations of HIT more than once a week e.g. arthur jones 3 times a week program as followed by the likes of sergio and viator and franco (the highest profile users i know of).
davie >:(
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Actually iv done 2 times a week and 3 with volume, but after an hour of endless sets high or low reps the body gets v run down and tired.
I train each body part once every 7 days. But ur wrong in as much as u can train with sum variations of HIT more than once a week e.g. arthur jones 3 times a week program as followed by the likes of sergio and viator and franco (the highest profile users i know of).
davie >:(
The main reason the CNS system can get down is too many sets IMO. That fatigues the body without providing any benefits, because it's essentially endurance training. The kind of exhaustion one gets from long-distance running.
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I haven't proposed a specific way. Wrong again.
As far as Schwarzenegger, it's clear from Oliva and others that improvement was made. That doesn't mean the program was better than others, but would've been worth using to supplement what was already achieved. There's strong evidence to anyone with an open mind, which means excluding Bluto who already figured out all training issues.
i have an open mind. when was the last time you had someone preach about working more volume and less intensity? or working your whole body two or even 3 times a week? youre the one that is bitching about open minds and at the same time looking down on everyone else and think you know everything, you had this attitude since day one when you started to give advice on the training forum (and everybody there hated you, because they couldnt stand your attitude,)
ever wonder why you get into fights with everybody on getbig and dont get along with anyone? let me guess, it's everybody elses fault huh?
i bet you're the same in real life and have no friends and get no respect because people cant stand to be around you.
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i have an open mind. when was the last time you had someone preach about working more volume and less intensity? or working your whole body two or even 3 times a week? youre the one that is bitching about open minds and at the same time looking down on everyone else and think you know everything, you had this attitude since day one when you started to give advice on the training forum (and everybody there hated you, because they couldnt stand your attitude,)
ever wonder why you get into fights with everybody on getbig and dont get along with anyone? let me guess, it's everybody elses fault huh?
i bet you're the same in real life and have no friends and get no respect because people cant stand to be around you.
Hit a nerve; he can't answer anything.
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Actually iv done 2 times a week and 3 with volume, but after an hour of endless sets high or low reps the body gets v run down and tired.
I train each body part once every 7 days. But ur wrong in as much as u can train with sum variations of HIT more than once a week e.g. arthur jones 3 times a week program as followed by the likes of sergio and viator and franco (the highest profile users i know of).
davie >:(
if you got run down and tired it was probably because of going to failure, you cant have that workload and go to failure all the time.
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The main reason the CNS system can get down is too many sets IMO. That fatigues the body without providing any benefits, because it's essentially endurance training. The kind of exhaustion one gets from long-distance running.
the main reason is failure. when stopping before failure you dont fry the cns as hard.
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FYI trying to reason with the closed-minded is pointless.
good answer. when someone disagree with you their closed minded? there you go again with your "i know best"-attitude that got you nowhere in life so far and fucked up every single social relation you ever had with anyone, ever.
you're one sad person.
you cant even get respect on a message board, let alone in real life.
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if you got run down and tired it was probably because of going to failure, you cant have that workload and go to failure all the time.
When doing volume i never went to failure as thats stupid. It was hours in the gym that burned me out as it will anyone.
Also think there more chance getting injured wen u work with alot of volume and ur hole body gets tired and form can slip - leading to injury!!
I dont know wer all this macho macho man rubbish is comeing from as it isnt helping to back up facts or make points any less stupid.
davie
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good answer. when someone disagree with you their closed minded? there you go again with your "i know best"-attitude that got you nowhere in life so far and fucked up every single social relation you ever had with anyone, ever.
you're one sad person.
you cant even get respect on a message board, let alone in real life.
You are close-minded and a blockhead. Let's be clear on that. You already know everything and keep telling us that over and over again, like a broken record. You're boring and especially uninteresting in your constant screams for attention that almost never have anything to do with the thread.
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When doing volume i never went to failure as thats stupid. It was hours in the gym that burned me out as it will anyone.
Also think there more chance getting injured wen u work with alot of volume and ur hole body gets tired and form can slip - leading to injury!!
I dont know wer all this macho macho man rubbish is comeing from as it isnt helping to back up facts or make points any less stupid.
davie
try cutting the gym time in half. no need to be there for hours.
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When doing volume i never went to failure as thats stupid. It was hours in the gym that burned me out as it will anyone.
Also think there more chance getting injured wen u work with alot of volume and ur hole body gets tired and form can slip - leading to injury!!
I dont know wer all this macho macho man rubbish is comeing from as it isnt helping to back up facts or make points any less stupid.
davie
Exactly; the biggest factor in wearing down the CNS is long workouts most closely associated with high volume.
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You are close-minded and a blockhead. Let's be clear on that. You already know everything and keep telling us that over and over again, like a broken record. You're boring and especially uninteresting in your constant screams for attention.
i'd say im the opposite, always willing to discuss and debate. my thoughts on training displayed here hasnt been posted before, so they can hardly be a broken record.
as for attention i dont get any more attention than anyone else in this thread, we all want our respective posts to get attention thats the reason we post them.
you make no sense.
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you make no sense.
Coming from "Bluto" this is a back-handed complement.
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try cutting the gym time in half. no need to be there for hours.
I have done that before aswell. i did and do not feel that is the way to train in order to progress in strength!! Progressing in strength is vitally importsnt, the size u gain as an afetr effect will come from ur diet and rest/recovery!!
I find myself profressing well in strength now, instead of thinking i have to perform endless sets for each muscle group, i am more focused on the job at hand kowing that for me to have a good workout, i must perform that short v intense set to its fullest (same for all HIT trainers wether u use extended sets, pre-exhaust or watever), or leave the gym feeling like the workout was unsuccessful. I have one chance to beat last weeks rep total, or one chance to prove that i can handle this new heavier weight i am using for the 1st time!!
davie
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HIT is for pussys. 1 set per exercise is far easy than the marathon workouts Arnold did. Arnold is greater than Mentzer so what does that tell you? HIT isn't any better.
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HIT is for pussys. 1 set per exercise is far easy than the marathon workouts Arnold did. Arnold is greater than Mentzer so what does that tell you? HIT isn't any better.
speak in more general terms, you're arguement as stated is so compelling.....tell me more.
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speak in more general terms, you're arguement as stated is so compelling.....tell me more.
There's nothing more to it. HIT hasn't produced any champion bodybuilders. It's like Doctor Phil telling people how to lose weight.
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There's nothing more to it. HIT hasn't produced any champion bodybuilders. It's like Doctor Phil telling people how to lose weight.
what about guys who used HIT variations like Dorian? Henry? Dugdale? Labrada? Viator?
nobody is saying that one set per bodypart will do anything what we're saying is there are variations that can produce results.
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what about guys who used HIT variations like Dorian? Henry? Dugdale? Labrada? Viator?
nobody is saying that one set per bodypart will do anything what we're saying is there are variations that can produce results.
So both systems work.
It's a matter of personal preference.
As I already stated.
End. Discussion.
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So both systems work.
It's a matter of personal preference.
As I already stated.
End. Discussion.
when did you say that? You don't like the discussion then stay out of the thread. You've added nothing so far so the chances of you doing anything worthwhile are pretty slim. This is a decent thread stop being a dick sit back and maybe you'll learn something.
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So both systems work.
It's a matter of personal preference.
As I already stated.
End. Discussion.
This fool just contradicted himself. Another one on the level of a 5-year old.
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Wow pumpster. How profound.
I understand the comedy of 600+ page threads...
but do we really need another Dorian Vs. Ronnie?
There's really not much here.
It's played out.
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Wow pumpster. How profound.
I understand the comedy of 600+ page threads...
but do we really need another Dorian Vs. Ronnie?
There's really not much here.
It's played out.
Say it again in english, that was incoherent.
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???
I'm stepping out of this one.
It's lame.
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???
I'm stepping out of this one.
It's lame.
Only wen u brought the standard down to ur level.
Its funny, that if arnold had been the only guy to ever use any sort of HIT workout, and had still had the same success then all the narrow minded haters would be loving it right now, and would be bad mouthing volume.lol.
so many people are glory hunting and jump on the bandwaggon that if arnold used it then it must be amazing. No1 thinks that he was genetically gifted, he could have probs wiped his ass and he would have grown those arms. Mentzer never did forearm work and had massive forearms, that doesnt mean that al HIT followers should also do no forearms work and expect the exact same results.
Its getting laughable peope coming on here and saying that HIT (and all variations) are for pussies, and that arnolds way and everything he did was the be all and end all.
If his way was 'thee way' then all other top bodybuilders of that time would have done the same. It seems actually that many of the top bodybuilders (tho maybe not guys that always came 1st) actually did use HIt style workouts!!
davie
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Only wen u brought the standard down to ur level.
Its funny, that if arnold had been the only guy to ever use any sort of HIT workout, and had still had the same success then all the narrow minded haters would be loving it right now, and would be bad mouthing volume.lol.
so many people are glory hunting and jump on the bandwaggon that if arnold used it then it must be amazing. No1 thinks that he was genetically gifted, he could have probs wiped his ass and he would have grown those arms. Mentzer never did forearm work and had massive forearms, that doesnt mean that al HIT followers should also do no forearms work and expect the exact same results.
Its getting laughable peope coming on here and saying that HIT (and all variations) are for pussies, and that arnolds way and everything he did was the be all and end all.
If his way was 'thee way' then all other top bodybuilders of that time would have done the same. It seems actually that many of the top bodybuilders (tho maybe not guys that always came 1st) actually did use HIt style workouts!!
davie
oh brother. If, if, if....
If the pope had wings he could fly.
Arnold > Mentzer
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the bolder part of your statement proves one thing to me. You have no idea how to work hard at anything in life
LMAO! :D
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oh brother. If, if, if....
If the pope had wings he could fly.
Arnold > Mentzer
I think i had 3 "if's" in there so dont so what ur getting at. It seems apparent that u are otherwise speachless when it comes to a intelligent response. So u r digressing from the topic.
This only goes to show that you donot know what ur really talking about.
IF you want to make descent contributions and b respected for ur opinions, then learn ur Sh*t 1st.
davie
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the bolder part of your statement proves one thing to me. You have no idea how to work hard at anything in life
LMAO! :D
laugh all you want but you can't even define any aspect of hit except to say "it's one set" you don't know jack, bottom line.
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Do u ever feel that in an attempt to have a healthy debate or discussion about trainnig methods and there differences and benifits to the body, that u end up just banging ur head against a brick wall, wen trying to talk to people who obviously have their heads buried in the sand??!!
davie
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Do u ever feel that in an attempt to have a healthy debate or discussion about trainnig methods and there differences and benifits to the body, that u end up just banging ur head against a brick wall, wen trying to talk to people who obviously have their heads buried in the sand??!!
davie
I can take people geing close minded that's not an issue for me. What I dont' like is people who act like they have any idea what they are talking about and they're experts on this and experts on that but they can't say one word about anything when they are asked. Yeah, yeah...HIT is for pussies..well what is HIT? You get nothing from them except that they workout hard. Theyr'e probably using alot of HIT principles and don't even know it cause they've never taken the time to educate themselvels. Look at all the 60 sets per bodypart stuff that DW posts, I've never, ever gone into one of his threads and flat out said his system won't work but here you have some clowns jsut coming in saying everything that falls unde the umbrella that is HIT is garbage.
It's laughable how stupid people are sometimes.
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I can take people geing close minded that's not an issue for me. What I dont' like is people who act like they have any idea what they are talking about and they're experts on this and experts on that but they can't say one word about anything when they are asked. Yeah, yeah...HIT is for pussies..well what is HIT? You get nothing from them except that they workout hard. Theyr'e probably using alot of HIT principles and don't even know it cause they've never taken the time to educate themselvels. Look at all the 60 sets per bodypart stuff that DW posts, I've never, ever gone into one of his threads and flat out said his system won't work but here you have some clowns jsut coming in saying everything that falls unde the umbrella that is HIT is garbage.
It's laughable how stupid people are sometimes.
Agreed!!
I am not a fan of those who are completely closed of to other ideas about a asubject. It is also annoying that b/c alot of these guys like arnold who loved mega volume, then they think its obvious that volume is the way to go. The same people that think that if 15 sets doesnt work then they better do 20 b/c that means there working harder and harder.
Wen in fact there only workign longer and longer, with increased chance of injury, and CNS taxing.
davie
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I want to appologise for being an ass.
I was talking to some bodybuilders today and they all seem to think HIT is really good.
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I want to appologise for being an ass.
I was talking to some bodybuilders today and they all seem to think HIT is really good.
The biggest issue with HIT or ANY good program is not whether it will work but rather whether it appeals to do on a daily basis. Lots of guys prefer some degree of standard training; it doesn't necessarily work any better and takes a little more time but is a preferred way of training. There are many ways to build muscle.
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I want to appologise for being an ass.
I was talking to some bodybuilders today and they all seem to think HIT is really good.
oh ok ::)
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My concern with it is...
depending on what type of sport you're training for, it might not be a good idea. If you're a boxer, I don't think it would be a good idea to train so slow. If you believe in "muscle memory" it seems like it would be counterproductive.
The guy I was talking to said HIT would be perfectly alright for boxing because he claimes reflexes and speed are something you're born with. For example, once you master the technique of the punch, you can perform it at any speed you're able whether you train HIT or not.
I'm not sure what is right.
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My concern with it is...
depending on what type of sport you're training for, it might not be a good idea. If you're a boxer, I don't think it would be a good idea to train so slow. If you believe in "muscle memory" it seems like it would be counterproductive.
The guy I was talking to said HIT would be perfectly alright for boxing because he claimes reflexes and speed are something you're born with. For example, once you master the technique of the punch, you can perform it at any speed you're able whether you train HIT or not.
I'm not sure what is right.
usually when I talk about training I'm not talking sports specific training as I have not done most of that kind of stuff or researched it to a point where I feel I can speak about it.
When you talk about sports specific training you're talking about a whole nother ball game,
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usually when I talk about training I'm not talking sports specific training as I have not done most of that kind of stuff or researched it to a point where I feel I can speak about it.
When you talk about sports specific training you're talking about a whole nother ball game,
I think HIT style workouts could be used as sports specific. I dont think they have to be just for bodybuilders.
realkarateblackbelt, no hard feelings on disagreements (tho nothing bad was said by either party)?! You wer right in saying that volume worked and that it was good program, im just glad that u now achknowledge that HIT can work aswell!
You could mayb try it for 6 weeks.
davie
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Ha, I used to get quite sick training volume like every 3 months I'd get a cold, doing hit I never get sick I was over training so much doing volume
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Pumpster is one of the most knowledgable posters here. He's a true bodybuilder and doesn't just come here to just fuck around like most of the guys here on G&O.
;D
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I thought alexxx was back....
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(