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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Krankenstein on August 05, 2012, 07:15:25 AM
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Anyone have one of these types as a friend. The kind who make up shit so often you just shake your head every time.
A buddy of mine (presumably to counter me telling him about the fitness chick I had over last night) tells me that he banged three chicks last night. One his girlfriend, the other these two who he met (somehow, very vague about that).
1) He lives at home
2) His gf basically lives there (as he puts it)
3) His parents love the gf
4) He supposedly got the gf out of his place by 2am
5) As of 9am he said the girls are still there.
He said 'you could call my mom and ask if they are still there'. I think he shit his pants when i screen captured my call log showing I made a call to the house.
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Kind of ironic that you, being a Chiropractor, are making this thread on "bullshitters" ::)
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Kind of ironic that you, being a Chiropractor, are making this thread on "bullshitters" ::)
What a shocker, moensforboysdick pokes his head into this thread.
How much of a bullshitter are you that you have 3? 4? masters degrees? HA HA. Talk about bullshitter.
In addition, how pathetic is your life that you make it your life's focus to make a comment about a profession that is part of EVERY pro sports team, is on staff at such renowned clinics like Mayo, has TONS of research out on the efficacy of treatment, and is even utilized by major corporations for company-wide wellness?
These people must be the most gullible people out there for us "quacks"
Ted Turner
George Bush, jr
Donald Trump
Tiger Woods
Princess Diana (rip)
Vanessa Williams
Robert DeNiro
President Clinton
Emeril Lagasi
Calvin Klein
Dick Chaney
Ozzy Osbourne
Sting
Shall I go on?
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knew a lad that was a right bullshitter. looked me dead in the eye and told me he had won (the previous evening) the lottery jackpot, but his house has just been burgled and the thieves nicked his winning ticket. ;D
an ex was a compulsive liar. when it's close to home it's not a very nice thing to have to deal with. the fucking whoppers she'd tell were fucking insane. things got very bad indeed. funny tghing was, no matter the lies or the sometimes massive trouble they caused, the cunt would never, ever face up to her lies or the resulting consequences.
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Kind of ironic that you, being a Chiropractor, are making this thread on "bullshitters" ::)
Moen, serious question here, why do you hate chiropractors? I see this pattern occurring in a few threads.
(btw, I'm not a DC)
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Man, I've met a few. I have a buddy that tells some pretty good ones and we all talk about it. I don't know why, but I never call him out. His shit is just so far out there, and he will say whatever the lie is, and it's like he knows it sounds like a "whopper", so as soon as it comes out he shifts to something else. We were talking about the light rail, and I told him about when I was in Europe, public transportation and trains were everywhere, he says "yeah, I gee up in Europe, when we were in London, and wanted to go to Germany, we'd get in the train and be there in like two hours". Then quickly changes the subject, because I know neither of the statements is true. He has said he was a smoke jumper firefighter out in the west during the summers. Then he said he has two degrees from the school we went to, and the neighboring school which is about 15 miles away. Also said he spent a year at Boise state, which is bullshit. Good guy, but tsometimes he just tells these bulshit lies.
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Its a disease
pathological lying
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I was close friends with 2 brothers who lied just about everything. One time I didn't see them for a few months and after finally seeing them, 1 brother told me he was enlisted in the Marines and became a Navy Seal and did a tour of duty ::) ::) Yes, because it takes 2-4 months to become Navy Seal ::) Since Ive known them, they told hundreds of lies. so many that I cant even remember most of them.
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Anyone have one of these types as a friend. The kind who make up shit so often you just shake your head every time.
A buddy of mine (presumably to counter me telling him about the fitness chick I had over last night) tells me that he banged three chicks last night. One his girlfriend, the other these two who he met (somehow, very vague about that).
1) He lives at home
2) His gf basically lives there (as he puts it)
3) His parents love the gf
4) He supposedly got the gf out of his place by 2am
5) As of 9am he said the girls are still there.
He said 'you could call my mom and ask if they are still there'. I think he shit his pants when i screen captured my call log showing I made a call to the house.
is his name james28
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Moen, serious question here, why do you hate chiropractors? I see this pattern occurring in a few threads.
(btw, I'm not a DC)
They are frowned upon by the entire medical community, I stand behind college educated doctors so I merely extend their views. Chiropractors are as unscientific as it gets. They are trained at their own "universities" because it isn't considered real medicine. That's why ;)
It's basically Western Voodoo.
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What a shocker, moensforboysdick pokes his head into this thread.
How much of a bullshitter are you that you have 3? 4? masters degrees? HA HA. Talk about bullshitter.
In addition, how pathetic is your life that you make it your life's focus to make a comment about a profession that is part of EVERY pro sports team, is on staff at such renowned clinics like Mayo, has TONS of research out on the efficacy of treatment, and is even utilized by major corporations for company-wide wellness?
These people must be the most gullible people out there for us "quacks"
Ted Turner
George Bush, jr
Donald Trump
Tiger Woods
Princess Diana (rip)
Vanessa Williams
Robert DeNiro
President Clinton
Emeril Lagasi
Calvin Klein
Dick Chaney
Ozzy Osbourne
Sting
Shall I go on?
Epic meltdown.
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Anyone have one of these types as a friend. The kind who make up shit so often you just shake your head every time.
A buddy of mine (presumably to counter me telling him about the fitness chick I had over last night) tells me that he banged three chicks last night. One his girlfriend, the other these two who he met (somehow, very vague about that).
1) He lives at home
2) His gf basically lives there (as he puts it)
3) His parents love the gf
4) He supposedly got the gf out of his place by 2am
5) As of 9am he said the girls are still there.
He said 'you could call my mom and ask if they are still there'. I think he shit his pants when i screen captured my call log showing I made a call to the house.
Your friend sounds like "Rush" aka Russell Simmons! ::) ;D
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Epic meltdown.
Must be hard not to be acknowledged by basically everyone who went to a real university.
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I was close friends with 2 brothers who lied just about everything. One time I didn't see them for a few months and after finally seeing them, 1 brother told me he was enlisted in the Marines and became a Navy Seal and did a tour of duty ::) ::) Yes, because it takes 2-4 months to become Navy Seal ::) Since Ive known them, they told hundreds of lies. so many that I cant even remember most of them.
They feel the need to embellish themselves, because they are losers---to look bigger than they really are, they need to lie.
The common theme amongst all of the is that it's easier to lie, than to actually do the deed. They know that they will fail, and because of this, they must hide the fact that they are "losers".
Their whole world is a lie. In fact, the fake world that they create for themselves is so attractive, that they never leave it, they refuse to. Because it forces them to see themselves as others see them.
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They are frowned upon by the entire medical community, I stand behind college educated doctors so I merely extend their views. Chiropractors are as unscientific as it gets. They are trained at their own "universities" because it isn't considered real medicine. That's why ;)
It's basically Western Voodoo.
Have you ever gone to one?? i go every month or so and it loosen's me up real good, and if i have a really sore back the chiro is my go to for sure.
My bro science behind it is this: if you are doing heavy squats and other excercises that put downward stress on your back, it will build up eventually and require a release. The chiro is able to release the tension.
i never let them adjust my neck!! my girlfriend was in the waiting room at a chiro clinic and the girl in front of her died from a neck adjustment.
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Yes I have been to one. It may feel good (with that I agree) but every orthopedic surgeon will tell you it is NOT good for your spine.
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Yes I have been to one. It may feel good (with that I agree) but every orthopedic surgeon will tell you it is NOT good for your spine.
hmmmm i will have to check into this.
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Anyone have one of these types as a friend. The kind who make up shit so often you just shake your head every time.
A buddy of mine (presumably to counter me telling him about the fitness chick I had over last night) tells me that he banged three chicks last night. One his girlfriend, the other these two who he met (somehow, very vague about that).
1) He lives at home
2) His gf basically lives there (as he puts it)
3) His parents love the gf
4) He supposedly got the gf out of his place by 2am
5) As of 9am he said the girls are still there.
He said 'you could call my mom and ask if they are still there'. I think he shit his pants when i screen captured my call log showing I made a call to the house.
just another day at the office for me. nyuk nyuk nyuk.... remember pics or it didn't happen
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They feel the need to embellish themselves, because they are losers---to look bigger than they really are, they need to lie.
The common theme amongst all of the is that it's easier to lie, than to actually do the deed. They know that they will fail, and because of this, they must hide the fact that they are "losers".
Their whole world is a lie. In fact, the fake world that they create for themselves is so attractive, that they never leave it, they refuse to. Because it forces them to see themselves as others see them.
Well, I have not talked to them in a REALLY long time. Fact of the matter is, the lies got old and I didn't wan to hear their bullshit any more.
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They are frowned upon by the entire medical community, I stand behind college educated doctors so I merely extend their views. Chiropractors are as unscientific as it gets. They are trained at their own "universities" because it isn't considered real medicine. That's why ;)
It's basically Western Voodoo.
Whats 'real medicine' tool box? Just because you can prescribe something? Stitch something?
Here is something you may want to understand : def. Medicine : The science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease (in technical use often taken to exclude surgery). Hmmm Lets see, just this past week I diagnosed a meniscus tear with acl tear. Confirmed by MRI. What?? I am not a real doctor, how did I get his insurance to cover that MRI??? Luckily no collateral ligament tear or he would have been the lucky recipient of what is called the 'unhappy triad'. Whoops...I am not a real doctor...guess that he will have to forget what I said and now go and see his general practitioner who will send him to an orthopoedic that will send him for an MRI. Damn. I hate it when I try to practice medicine.
How about those masters degrees there chief?
Why did you gloss over what I typed above? Is it because you have no answer and know you are just someone who is the exact kind of person I am talking about in this thread? We are trained at our own schools just like MD's get trained at Medical schools. Wow. Novel concept.
Also, do you consider an MD who went on and obtained his specialty in osteopathy a 'quack'. Lets hear it? Oh, and every orthopodic surgeon says its back for your spine? Again, how do you explain osteopaths and physical therapists who want to have the ability/licence to manipulate the spine? Oh, I am sorry. Its bad for your spine and those people are trying to make people worse so that they can get more money. Shit, why didn't I think of that sooner????
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My best friends brother is like this. I never heard so many tall tales in one convo. in my life. This guy churns out lies like they are for sale. My friend said just to ignore him, he doesnt know why he does it. LOL
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I'm just glad there are websites like getbig.com where everyone tells the truth.
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I once threw a football a quarter mile.
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I once threw a football a quarter mile.
Take it easy Uncle Rico.
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Take it easy Uncle Rico.
LMAO....I forgot where I heard that
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Whats 'real medicine' tool box? Just because you can prescribe something? Stitch something?
Here is something you may want to understand : def. Medicine : The science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease (in technical use often taken to exclude surgery). Hmmm Lets see, just this past week I diagnosed a meniscus tear with acl tear. Confirmed by MRI. What?? I am not a real doctor, how did I get his insurance to cover that MRI??? Luckily no collateral ligament tear or he would have been the lucky recipient of what is called the 'unhappy triad'. Whoops...I am not a real doctor...guess that he will have to forget what I said and now go and see his general practitioner who will send him to an orthopoedic that will send him for an MRI. Damn. I hate it when I try to practice medicine.
How about those masters degrees there chief?
Why did you gloss over what I typed above? Is it because you have no answer and know you are just someone who is the exact kind of person I am talking about in this thread? We are trained at our own schools just like MD's get trained at Medical schools. Wow. Novel concept.
Also, do you consider an MD who went on and obtained his specialty in osteopathy a 'quack'. Lets hear it? Oh, and every orthopodic surgeon says its back for your spine? Again, how do you explain osteopaths and physical therapists who want to have the ability/licence to manipulate the spine? Oh, I am sorry. Its bad for your spine and those people are trying to make people worse so that they can get more money. Shit, why didn't I think of that sooner????
Formulate your questions for me in a concise manner, this usually means a numbered list, and I'll reply to each one. I'm not going to weed out the questions in your ramblings.
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I gotta agree with Moen
Theres no way a chiropractor should ever have the Dr. before his name
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Yes there is someone I know who is the definition of this.. 26 years old, lived off his parents his whole life, use to be morbidly obese, wreaks of insecurity and wears tank tops to the bar and no shirt bigger than a size large(he is about 5'11 250lbs so it looks ridiculous). He moved here because he was dating a whore and now is stuck here.
The list of lies he told:
- Played semi-pro football
- Its his first steroid cycle, for about 8 months this lie was "this is the first time I ever used stuff".. come to find out from a close friend he was a major dealer back at home lol
- was in the hells angels
- was in the mongols
- was in a rock band
- smoked weed with ozzie osbourne
- his cousin is one of the top italian mobsters in pennsylvania
- he has banged - insert about 10 girls names in the last few months that he most definitely did not
- This is what made everyone basically tell him to fuck off from our gym.. said he was going to do this show many of us were going to.. is insecure as fuck and made up a HUGE lie about his kidney values and constantly made up lies about it, and for some reason would drive 90 minutes to go to a redneck piece of shit county hospital to stay overnight instead of one of the hospitals around here ranked one of the top 100 in the nation. He said the doctor said it was from one shot of masteron and now its diet sweet tea. His levels were 1000x the normal limit apparently, which would have made him Derek Anthony Jr.
- his parents house is twice the size of this super nice, very well off guy from our gym
- his parents own the biggest lumberyard in the east coast, which it isn't even close
- he is on disability for his kidneys from work.. a week later was fired (he deserved to be fired, worst employee ever and would skip work for like two hours to sit in the gym and bullshit)
- he is now going to sell BMWs and already has 8 sold before ever actually getting the job
Holy shit just typing all this has made me extremely pissed off and hate him.
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Formulate your questions for me in a concise manner, this usually means a numbered list, and I'll reply to each one. I'm not going to weed out the questions in your ramblings.
Hmmm. A question is usually a combination of words that ends with the '?' symbol. I would have thought that someone with 10 masters degrees would know this. In fact, the first five words in my post you managed to quote (congrats! you probably learned that when you worked on your 7th masters degree) combined to form a question.
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I work with this knob who bullshits more than he works! One night he babbled on about his childhood,Like how he was conceived becuase his mom was raped by his dad the night she caught him with another man.He was stabbed by his mom.His mom killed his sister in a fire.His dad threw the family dog in front of on coming traffic,his dad drowned him in the bathtub but his mom saved him. he went on for an hour I can't remember it all, if there's more ill update this thread lol
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I work with this knob who bullshits more than he works! One night he babbled on about his childhood,Like how he was conceived becuase his mom was raped by his dad the night she caught him with another man.He was stabbed by his mom.His mom killed his sister in a fire.His dad threw the family dog in front of on coming traffic,his dad drowned him in the bathtub but his mom saved him. he went on for an hour I can't remember it all, if there's more ill update this thread lol
So his mom stabbed him after the tub saving. Interesting.
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I work with this knob who bullshits more than he works! One night he babbled on about his childhood,Like how he was conceived becuase his mom was raped by his dad the night she caught him with another man.He was stabbed by his mom.His mom killed his sister in a fire.His dad threw the family dog in front of on coming traffic,his dad drowned him in the bathtub but his mom saved him. he went on for an hour I can't remember it all, if there's more ill update this thread lol
Sounds like he watched an episode of Family Guy while blazed up.
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We call them "toppers"...No matter what story you tell someone in their presence, they will always try to "top" that story.
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Hmmm. A question is usually a combination of words that ends with the '?' symbol. I would have thought that someone with 10 masters degrees would know this. In fact, the first five words in my post you managed to quote (congrats! you probably learned that when you worked on your 7th masters degree) combined to form a question.
Do you think a real doctor would post these kind of meltdowns on an internet board? If you want your questions answered, then present them in a way that doesn't have me deciphering what is a question and what is meltdown. I'm guessing you'd rather have me NOT answering those questions.
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I gotta agree with Moen
Theres no way a chiropractor should ever have the Dr. before his name
Whys that?
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Do you think a real doctor would post these kind of meltdowns on an internet board? If you want your questions answered, then present them in a way that doesn't have me deciphering what is a question and what is meltdown. I'm guessing you'd rather have me NOT answering those questions.
Where have I melted down? (<--- whoops, there that pesky question mark is again. I have to start pointing it out to you from here on out I think) I have presented you with a multitude of queries. You have shown avoidance to all. I am guessing you are a sad pathetic twink. My diagnosis is this:
297.1
302.2
Please pay the receptionist on the way out.
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Whys that?
just a personal opinion
nothing more
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They are frowned upon by the entire medical community, I stand behind college educated doctors so I merely extend their views. Chiropractors are as unscientific as it gets. They are trained at their own "universities" because it isn't considered real medicine. That's why ;)
It's basically Western Voodoo.
This post is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response. The same type of bro-logic as saying "13 minute window post workout or you'll go catabolic." ::)
Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth. Can you even name 28 other countries? That number is astounding. It seems the current medical model doesn't seem to be working so well. We are sicker than ever as a society, and it is getting worse each year.
I'm sure you have educated yourself on the history of chiropractic and the massive lawsuit that the American Medical Association LOST to the chiropractic profession when they attempted to sabotage our public image in an attempt to monopolize the healthcare system in America many years ago. You know this story, yes?
Every pro sports team in America has a DC on staff. Most (if not all) top 10 Olympians receive regular care. 30 million Americans each year receive care. Are these people all brainwashed? Adding to krank's list, Vince Taylor volunteered for free to do a 1 day seminar at my school, advocating how chiropractic saved his career. I talked with the guy for 30 mins over a cup of coffee. Aaron Roger's (GB Packers) dad is a DC, hes another huge proponent. As is Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Tiger Woods, the list goes on....Are these people all brainwashed?
Let's keep pumping America full of Lipitor, Prozac, and Adderall...this has to be the key to optimal health, right?
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
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A couple months ago at the gym, i see these two juiceheads talking. One is still a bit twinkish, looks to be just out of highschool, while the other is the resident king gym rat.
They're bullshitting about this and that, I overhear some of their conversation, clearly their both fucking dumb as rocks. Then the convo heads in a direction I can't believe. The young one lets on about how he "was wondering" whether he had "hit his natural limits or not" for a while, and then realized he had "so much more potential," which was a huge relief to him, as now he wouldn't have to resort to steroids. The older one instantly turns gravely serious, "yeah man, you've got TONS of growing to do, never touch that stuff, never..." They continue on for another five minutes, to all appearances IN DEAD SERIOUSNESS, discussing the evils of steroids and the virtues of hard work.
WTF!!!!!!!!!
The only explanation I can think of, is maybe they were too stupid to know the other person knew they were on. Anyway, it was one of the strangest things I've seen in my life. It's not like there was even anyone else involved in their conversation... just the two of them, and they still can't be honest or just shut up?
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This post is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response. The same type of bro-logic as saying "13 minute window post workout or you'll go catabolic." ::)
pretty sure you're nowhere near being above this sort of talk yourself...
Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth.
what?
Can you even name 28 other countries? That number is astounding. It seems the current medical model doesn't seem to be working so well. We are sicker than ever as a society, and it is getting worse each year.
who made this "ranking" and what was the procedure?
I'm sure you have educated yourself on the history of chirpractic
something about birds?
and the massive lawsuit that the American Medical Association LOST to the chiropractic profession when they attempted to sabotage our public image in an attempt to monopolize the healthcare system in America many years ago. You know this story, yes?
Every pro sports team in America has a DC on staff. Most (if not all) top 10 Olympians receive regular care. 30 million Americans each year receive care. Are these people all brainwashed? Adding to krank's list, Vince Taylor volunteered for free to do a 1 day seminar at my school, advocating how chiropractic saved his career. I talked with the guy for 30 mins over a cup of coffee. Aaron Roger's (GB Packers) dad is a DC, hes another huge proponent. As is Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Tiger Woods, the list goes on....Are these people all brainwashed?
why wouldn't they be? ???
strong evidence in this post
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pretty sure you're nowhere near being above this sort of talk yourself...
what?
who made this "ranking" and what was the procedure?
something about birds?
why wouldn't they be? ???
strong evidence in this post
If there is a serious question here, rephrase it bro. I don't see it.
PS: google is a magical resource to answer many of your questions, unless you would rather PM me again.
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okay just explain to me the statement:
Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth.
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okay just explain to me the statement:
Here is one link:
http://www.americashealthrankings.org/Rankings/InternationalComparisons
Google will have much more info as well. Godspeed, Cephhy.
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28th healthiest mean 27 ranks below the highest rank
28th sickest means rank 27 ranks above the lowest rank
28th healthiest != 28th sickest... unless there are only 55 countries in the world
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This post is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response. The same type of bro-logic as saying "13 minute window post workout or you'll go catabolic." ::)
Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth. Can you even name 28 other countries? That number is astounding. It seems the current medical model doesn't seem to be working so well. We are sicker than ever as a society, and it is getting worse each year.
I'm sure you have educated yourself on the history of chiropractic and the massive lawsuit that the American Medical Association LOST to the chiropractic profession when they attempted to sabotage our public image in an attempt to monopolize the healthcare system in America many years ago. You know this story, yes?
Every pro sports team in America has a DC on staff. Most (if not all) top 10 Olympians receive regular care. 30 million Americans each year receive care. Are these people all brainwashed? Adding to krank's list, Vince Taylor volunteered for free to do a 1 day seminar at my school, advocating how chiropractic saved his career. I talked with the guy for 30 mins over a cup of coffee. Aaron Roger's (GB Packers) dad is a DC, hes another huge proponent. As is Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Tiger Woods, the list goes on....Are these people all brainwashed?
Let's keep pumping America full of Lipitor, Prozac, and Adderall...this has to be the key to optimal health, right?
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
PS:
Add to this that America spends more $$$ per capita on "health" care than any other nation, and we are still ranking THIS low? Something is off.
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28th healthiest mean 27 ranks below the highest rank
28th sickest means rank 27 ranks above the lowest rank
28th healthiest != 28th sickest... unless there are only 55 countries in the world
Rhetoric, a literary tool used to make a point, hence the quotation marks. Same as calling health care "sick care." Do you have any valid, mature points to make or just more nitpicking on my sub-par writing style?
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They are frowned upon by the entire medical community, I stand behind college educated doctors so I merely extend their views. Chiropractors are as unscientific as it gets. They are trained at their own "universities" because it isn't considered real medicine. That's why ;)
It's basically Western Voodoo.
My father was a radiologist...something of a pioneer in the field of nuclear medicine....he disliked Chiropracotrs immensely. The one day I was describing the back pain I had and how the chiro had handled it...he just shugged and said, "sounds like pretty effective physiotherapy...glad it worked". If he an be openimded...why not you?
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My father was a radiologist...something of a pioneer in the field of nuclear medicine....he disliked Chiropracotrs immensely. The one day I was describing the back pain I had and how the chiro had handled it...he just shugged and said, "sounds like pretty effective physiotherapy...glad it worked". If he an be openimded...why not you?
Good stuff bro.
Did you know the first radiology classes in the US were taught at a chiropractic school? Palmer College of Chiropractic. True story.
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That caught my attention, too. Let's hope for Crank and Chiro that it doesn't become a bumper sticker.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php
Thoughts?
PS: statistically you're more likely to get struck by lightning than to get hurt in a chiropractors office.
I don't know where DCs fall on the list, but I know we arent even close to being in the top 10 list of doctors sued for malpractice. General surgeons, OBGYNs, GE's, Urologists, etc all rank way way way ahead of us
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This post is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response. The same type of bro-logic as saying "13 minute window post workout or you'll go catabolic." ::)
Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth. Can you even name 28 other countries? That number is astounding. It seems the current medical model doesn't seem to be working so well. We are sicker than ever as a society, and it is getting worse each year.
I'm sure you have educated yourself on the history of chiropractic and the massive lawsuit that the American Medical Association LOST to the chiropractic profession when they attempted to sabotage our public image in an attempt to monopolize the healthcare system in America many years ago. You know this story, yes?
Every pro sports team in America has a DC on staff. Most (if not all) top 10 Olympians receive regular care. 30 million Americans each year receive care. Are these people all brainwashed? Adding to krank's list, Vince Taylor volunteered for free to do a 1 day seminar at my school, advocating how chiropractic saved his career. I talked with the guy for 30 mins over a cup of coffee. Aaron Roger's (GB Packers) dad is a DC, hes another huge proponent. As is Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Tiger Woods, the list goes on....Are these people all brainwashed?
Let's keep pumping America full of Lipitor, Prozac, and Adderall...this has to be the key to optimal health, right?
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
You call my post absurd, only to come up with this? What else is caused by real medicine and a lack of chiropractics? You guys are basically affirming everything that is said about you and you don't even seem to be realizing it ;)
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You call my post absurd, only to come up with this? What else is caused by real medicine and a lack of chiropractics? You guys are basically affirming everything that is said about you and you don't even seem to be realizing it ;)
How so?
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You study quackery, you do quackery and now you are also on this forum stating quackery. Come on man. What you said in that post makes zero sense. What did you actually say?
It sounded more like an incoherent ramble, the same thing your colleague Krankenstein is quite prolific at.
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Gives us some real, scientific proof for what you guys do.
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You study quackery, you do quackery and now you are also on this forum stating quackery. Come on man. What you said in that post makes zero sense. What did you actually say?
It sounded more like an incoherent ramble, the same thing your colleague Krankenstein is quite prolific at.
Lol now it's obvious you are just trolling since you have nothing of substance to say. I posted some good links and info. What have you said? Nada.
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Gives us some real, scientific proof for what you guys do.
Go to PubMed.gov for a few hours, you're an adult, I don't need to hold your hand like a child through this bro. Educate yourself, for your own sake. I can only point you in the right direction.
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If you consider that good links and a well built up case, I can understand why it had to be a pseudo-college for you.
Am I the only one under the impression chiro school is basically for people who are too dumb for real med school?
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Go to PubMed.gov for a few hours, you're an adult, I don't need to hold your hand like a child through this bro. Educate yourself, for your own sake. I can only point you in the right direction.
I'm not going to look for proof of something I don't believe in on Pubmed. I would also be very surprised if chiros managed to get something on there :D
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Well, that line did catch my attention. Just having fun, Chiro. I have nothing against your profession.
Too late, I already took vacation time to fly to your exact location to throw fists :D
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I'm not going to look for proof of something I don't believe in on Pubmed. I would also be very surprised if chiros managed to get something on there :D
Brutal denial of factual information! Must be nice man, I don't have the ability to turn a blind eye to truth when I see it, even if it rocks my current belief system. Hey, the info is there if you ever decide to educate yourself. Ignorance is bliss 8)
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You are the chiro, you present the info. It's a bit weird you are now asking me to do this, no?
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What a ringing endorsement.
Prescription drug reactions are ranked as between the 4th and 6th leading cause of death in the U.S
Spine fusion techniques are being scrutinized amid reports that there are many needless surgeries that pose health risks.
Spine fusion surgeries have increased dramatically in the past decade. An April 2010 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found a 15-fold increase in the number of spinal fusion surgeries performed for Medicare patients between 2002 and 2007.
“You can see the spine infusion rates and there is really no doubt fusion operations are clearly being overdone,” says Kamal Thapar, MD, medical director of neurosurgery and tertiary care services at Sacred Heart Hospital in Eau Claire, WI. “We are held to standards of outcome and we have to demonstrate value.”
Bryan J. Massoud, MD, the CEO of the New Jersey Back Institute at the Spine Centers of America in Fair Lawn, NJ, says as spine surgeons evaluate patients, they are consistently confronted with a challenge. “Do we need to be doing all these things or are there some we don’t need to be doing?” he says. Spine fusion surgery is “definitely our last alternative,” Massoud says, but adds he will consider it after evaluating different treatment options.
“We always start with conservative measures first, such as chiropractic, physical therapy, pain medication. If there is still a problem, then we do injections. If a patient is not improving and having pain, then we evaluate to see if they are a candidate for endoscopy,” Massoud says.
“If the patient is still not improved and still having pain, radiating pain, or sciatica, then he or she is a candidate for endoscopic spine surgery,”he says.
Holy shit....an MD says try chiropractic before spinal surgery. Moen, fuckstick prime, here is your question:
1) IF CHIROPRACTORS ARE SUCH QUACKS, WHY IS THIS GUY SAYING WHAT HE SAID ABOVE?? ?? <--- take note of the copious amount of question marks indicating a question.
Bolded and increased in size so you don't miss out on a question.
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They haven't learned you guys how to use Pubmed in chiro school or what seems to be the problem ???
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Prescription drug reactions are ranked as between the 4th and 6th leading cause of death in the U.S
Spine fusion techniques are being scrutinized amid reports that there are many needless surgeries that pose health risks.
Spine fusion surgeries have increased dramatically in the past decade. An April 2010 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found a 15-fold increase in the number of spinal fusion surgeries performed for Medicare patients between 2002 and 2007.
“You can see the spine infusion rates and there is really no doubt fusion operations are clearly being overdone,” says Kamal Thapar, MD, medical director of neurosurgery and tertiary care services at Sacred Heart Hospital in Eau Claire, WI. “We are held to standards of outcome and we have to demonstrate value.”
Bryan J. Massoud, MD, the CEO of the New Jersey Back Institute at the Spine Centers of America in Fair Lawn, NJ, says as spine surgeons evaluate patients, they are consistently confronted with a challenge. “Do we need to be doing all these things or are there some we don’t need to be doing?” he says. Spine fusion surgery is “definitely our last alternative,” Massoud says, but adds he will consider it after evaluating different treatment options.
“We always start with conservative measures first, such as chiropractic, physical therapy, pain medication. If there is still a problem, then we do injections. If a patient is not improving and having pain, then we evaluate to see if they are a candidate for endoscopy,” Massoud says.
“If the patient is still not improved and still having pain, radiating pain, or sciatica, then he or she is a candidate for endoscopic spine surgery,”he says.
Holy shit....an MD says try chiropractic before spinal surgery. Moen, fuckstick prime, here is your question:
1) IF CHIROPRACTORS ARE SUCH QUACKS, WHY IS THIS GUY SAYING WHAT HE SAID ABOVE???? <--- take note of the copious amount of question marks indicating a question.
Bolded and increased in size so you don't miss out on a question.
Haha, you found an endorsement. Well this statistically significant n=1 makes for a closed case! lol
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It's true they are overdoing spinal surgeries though, been hearing that a lot lately. Which is good news for you fellas ;)
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They haven't learned you guys how to use Pubmed in chiro school or what seems to be the problem ???
You have yet to show one shred of evidence on how we are quacks. Prove your stance or STFU. How's that sound? I am sure with your multiple master degrees indicating you are somewhat educated that you could provide something of an argument that has substance to it. Right now you are simply saying "I know you are, but what am I".
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You are the chiro, you present the info. It's a bit weird you are now asking me to do this, no?
If you lived in my city, I'd take you out for a beer or coffee and spend an hour chatting about this. (I'm serious). But I don't have time to hold your hand and walk you through this stuff man, I have an exam to cram for in 10 hours and I'm busy deciding the order I WHI on a thread full of trannies on GetBig :-X. I'm off to the library for the night, Holler at me if you're ever in the mighty Midwest brother.
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As I said before, I merely follow what MD's say on the matter, I have nothing to prove since I'm not an MD myself.
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It's true they are overdoing spinal surgeries though, been hearing that a lot lately. Which is good news for you fellas ;)
Why good news? We are quacks. Right? Haven't you proven this? Oh wait, you haven't yet.
Still waiting on the answer to my question toolbox.
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Get an actual MD on here, preferably an orthopedic surgeon, to do what you ask of me ;)
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If you lived in my city, I'd take you out for a beer or coffee and spend an hour chatting about this. (I'm serious). But I don't have time to hold your hand and walk you through this stuff man, I have an exam to cram for in 10 hours and I'm busy deciding the order I WHI on a thread full of trannies on GetBig :-X. I'm off to the library for the night, Holler at me if you're ever in the mighty Midwest brother.
If I ever come to the US, why not, I have no problems with you personally. Let's not do the hand holding though ;)
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Why good news? We are quacks. Right? Haven't you proven this? Oh wait, you haven't yet.
Still waiting on the answer to my question toolbox.
Money ;)
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If I ever come to the US, why not, I have no problems with you personally. Let's not do the hand holding though ;)
If I buy you a drink, you are gonna put out bitch
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Get an actual MD on here, preferably an orthopedic surgeon, to do what you ask of me ;)
Wow...you really suck at life. You make a claim, then can't even back it up. What are your three Masters in again? Personally, I wish this thread would just *poof*.
I owned your ass here...plain and simple.
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Bethany Howell Hewitt...is that her name????? Now she bullshits.
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If I buy you a drink, you are gonna put out bitch
;D
You're a funny guy, I'll give you that ;)
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Wow...you really suck at life. You make a claim, then can't even back it up. What are your three Masters in again? Personally, I wish this thread would just *poof*.
I owned your ass here...plain and simple.
Communication sciences, Sociology and soon in Philosophy. Me defending the orthopedics' view would be seriously out of my league. For the last time: I'm merely stating what I hear from them. I'm clearly NOT educated on the matter myself so I get my information from educated MD's, plain and simple. You thus didn't "own" nothing.
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If you really want me to, I can look for links on what MD's have to say about chiropractics. But I'm sure you've already heard most of that.
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I work with a lot of ortho surgeons and PTs and I've yet to encounter one who has a favorable opinion of chiropractic.
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I work with a lot of ortho surgeons and PTs and I've yet to encounter one who has a favorable opinion of chiropractic.
My mentor (a DC) gets a ridiculous volume of business via referrals from each of the 2 specialties listed above. I could ask him for a figure, and post it back here, but I'd ballpark roughly 50 new patients a month from professional referrals. He also refers out to them as well if he feels they would be better cared for under someone else.
PS what's your occupation bro?
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If you really want me to, I can look for links on what MD's have to say about chiropractics. But I'm sure you've already heard most of that.
Yet I can show you quotes from MD's that support chiropractic care for patient and you will continue to talk out of your ass.
I will appease you on something. You call my profession quackery. So here are your questions:
1) Do you call an MD with a specialty in Osteopathy a quack? (Hint : osteopaths manipulate the spine and extremities much the same way chiropractors do)
2) If MD's really hate us, why are chiropractors on staff at the Mayo Clinic here in the US? (if you do not kow what the Mayo Clinic is, its a major Hospital network in the US)
You believe some MD's on chiropractic care, but what about these facts:
- For short-term back pain, some studies have shown that it can be as effective as or more effective than conventional treatment.
- For long-term back pain, a 2004 analysis published by the respected Cochrane Collaboration found that chiropractic adjustments were as good as but not better than other treatments like physical therapy, exercise or pain medication.
"Many people have poor posture or habits, and I've found chiropractic treatment is one of the ways the resultant problems can be addressed." - ANDREA E. GORDON, M.D., a board-certified family doctor practicing integrative medicine and teaching at Tufts University Family Medicine Residency at Cambridge Health Alliance in Malden, Mass. She's also an assistant professor of family medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. (<----- Oh wow...look she went to a University!!!!!)
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Yet I can show you quotes from MD's that support chiropractic care for patient and you will continue to talk out of your ass.
I will appease you on something. You call my profession quackery. So here are your questions:
1) Do you call an MD with a specialty in Osteopathy a quack? (Hint : osteopaths manipulate the spine and extremities much the same way chiropractors do)
2) If MD's really hate us, why are chiropractors on staff at the Mayo Clinic here in the US? (if you do not kow what the Mayo Clinic is, its a major Hospital network in the US)
You believe some MD's on chiropractic care, but what about these facts:
- For short-term back pain, some studies have shown that it can be as effective as or more effective than conventional treatment.
- For long-term back pain, a 2004 analysis published by the respected Cochrane Collaboration found that chiropractic adjustments were as good as but not better than other treatments like physical therapy, exercise or pain medication.
"Many people have poor posture or habits, and I've found chiropractic treatment is one of the ways the resultant problems can be addressed." - ANDREA E. GORDON, M.D., a board-certified family doctor practicing integrative medicine and teaching at Tufts University Family Medicine Residency at Cambridge Health Alliance in Malden, Mass. She's also an assistant professor of family medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. (<----- Oh wow...look she went to a University!!!!!)
Also add: why does the government's accrediting agencies recognize the chiropractic schools in the US as They do? They don't throw out that "primary health care physician" title to just anybody.
Also: why does every major health insurance company reimburse for chiropractic treatment?
Also: I'd like the exact locations of every poster in this thread :D
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I am breaking out my 4oz gloves and heading to my custom built UFC cage for some sparing. Tomorrow I am going to call Dana White and work out a deal to broadcast the fight between myself and any getbigger that wants to throw hands over this!!!! >:(
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Watch this clip bros, it's 3 mins.
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Has the word placebo been mentioned yet?
The overall tendency with chiropractic care is that the more rigorous the studies are in terms of control groups, double-blind protocols etc the more the positive effect of the treatment vanishes. With the most rigorous studies done to date chiropractics has been shown to be about as effective as a pill of Ibuprofen for back pain which is not saying much. NO OTHER benefit has been shown.
Never mind the studies though, what about the actual underlying science? There's nothing to support the idea of "subluxations". It's a made up concept that has not been proven in any way, shape or form.
I'd recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine/dp/0393337782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344230168&sr=8-1&keywords=trick+or+treatment
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Has the word placebo been mentioned yet?
The overall tendency with chiropractic care is that the more rigorous the studies are in terms of control groups, double-blind protocols etc the more the positive effect of the treatment vanishes. With the most rigorous studies done to date chiropractics has been shown to be about as effective as a pill of Ibuprofen for back pain which is not saying much. NO OTHER benefit has been shown.
Never mind the studies though, what about the actual underlying science? There's nothing to support the idea of "subluxations". It's a made up concept that has not been proven in any way, shape or form.
I'd recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine/dp/0393337782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344230168&sr=8-1&keywords=trick+or+treatment
There is verifiable data to support neural interference caused by vertebral subluxations though?
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Yet I can show you quotes from MD's that support chiropractic care for patient and you will continue to talk out of your ass.
I will appease you on something. You call my profession quackery. So here are your questions:
1) Do you call an MD with a specialty in Osteopathy a quack? (Hint : osteopaths manipulate the spine and extremities much the same way chiropractors do)
2) If MD's really hate us, why are chiropractors on staff at the Mayo Clinic here in the US? (if you do not kow what the Mayo Clinic is, its a major Hospital network in the US)
You believe some MD's on chiropractic care, but what about these facts:
- For short-term back pain, some studies have shown that it can be as effective as or more effective than conventional treatment.
- For long-term back pain, a 2004 analysis published by the respected Cochrane Collaboration found that chiropractic adjustments were as good as but not better than other treatments like physical therapy, exercise or pain medication.
"Many people have poor posture or habits, and I've found chiropractic treatment is one of the ways the resultant problems can be addressed." - ANDREA E. GORDON, M.D., a board-certified family doctor practicing integrative medicine and teaching at Tufts University Family Medicine Residency at Cambridge Health Alliance in Malden, Mass. She's also an assistant professor of family medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. (<----- Oh wow...look she went to a University!!!!!)
First of all, how is merely repeating what several orthopedic surgeons have told me when I asked about chiropractics directly, "talking out of my ass"? It only makes sense for me to get my information from educated MD's and only from them.
1) YES. I have also never heard of an MD reverting to ostheopathy to be honest.
2) No idea. The orthopedic surgeons I've spoken to all were very much against it and this is also mostly what I hear from other surgeons/MD's. I have yet to hear one positive opinion and I've spoken to many about this subject. Just stating my experience here.
I'm not going to dispute actual studies, if they conclude that is the case, then that is the case ;) I will do some research myself later in the day, that is IF I can still log in to Pubmed because reading summaries of studies is not the way to go. But I'll look it up and if I find positive proof, I'll even post it here ;)
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Also add: why does the government's accrediting agencies recognize the chiropractic schools in the US as They do? They don't throw out that "primary health care physician" title to just anybody.
Also: why does every major health insurance company reimburse for chiropractic treatment?
Also: I'd like the exact locations of every poster in this thread :D
I'm neither in the US nor educated on this matter so can't comment!
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Has the word placebo been mentioned yet?
The overall tendency with chiropractic care is that the more rigorous the studies are in terms of control groups, double-blind protocols etc the more the positive effect of the treatment vanishes. With the most rigorous studies done to date chiropractics has been shown to be about as effective as a pill of Ibuprofen for back pain which is not saying much. NO OTHER benefit has been shown.
Never mind the studies though, what about the actual underlying science? There's nothing to support the idea of "subluxations". It's a made up concept that has not been proven in any way, shape or form.
I'd recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine/dp/0393337782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344230168&sr=8-1&keywords=trick+or+treatment
There is indeed no proof I know of that manipulations do anything worthwhile.
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There is indeed no proof I know of that manipulations do anything worthwhile.
I've seen some miracles in my docs office man. Legitimately, amazing things. If the patients truly were "faking it", they deserve Oscars.
I myself got into the profession because of my remarkable experience with it when I got my first adjustment at age 19. I told myself right there that if I wanted to help people in my life, this was what I NEEDED to do. I need to share this with people. And I've seen hundreds of cases just like myself. If I hit the jackpot tomorrow and won $100 million, I would still finish school and continue to practice and treat patients, that's how positive and rewarding my own experience has been.
Oh, and no homo.
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It's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but there is no scientific proof of it so far. "Placebo" is very real, if people are convinced they are helped by something, then they'll also feel that way. Power of the mind.
I'm a man of science so I'll only ever be convinced when there is some kind of (objective) proof. Except for philosophical questions which are of course outside the realm of science entirely.
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It's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but there is no scientific proof of it so far. "Placebo" is very real, if people are convinced they are helped by something, then they'll also feel that way. Power of the mind.
I'm a man of science so I'll only ever be convinced when there is some kind of (objective) proof. Except for philosophical questions which are of course outside the realm of science entirely.
There is some, but I agree I wish there was more. Research is not my passion, treating patients is. But guaranteed within the next 5 years there will be a surge. They're doing some cool stuff analyzing nerve conduction velocities and their association with vertebral subluxations and it's role in nerve interference. Quantifying the data has been the hardest part here AKA Nerves are a bitch to study!
There's also a massive evidence-based movement occurring at the chiropractic college level. Like I said, within 5 years there will be much more out there.
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Well if that material proves me and all of the others wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I'd have no problem with that ;)
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Also add: why does the government's accrediting agencies recognize the chiropractic schools in the US as They do? They don't throw out that "primary health care physician" title to just anybody.
Also: why does every major health insurance company reimburse for chiropractic treatment?
Also: I'd like the exact locations of every poster in this thread :D
I gotta back you guys up here. I think it's unfair to call all chiros "quacks." I'm an MD, and I've known many chiros including my current gf, and they were all quite reasonable and well-trained professionals. To be sure, the chiros claiming that adjustments can treat asthma, diabetes, etc. draw skepticism from MDs. But there is medical literature supporting the use of chiropractory in, for example, lower back pain. In fact, I was taught in medical school that referral to a chiro was a reasonable treatment option for lower back pain supported by randomized studies. Also, many chiros function more like PAs for MDs anyway. My gf basically does all the postop visits and follow ups for an orthopedic surgeon.
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I gotta back you guys up here. I think it's unfair to call all chiros "quacks." I'm an MD, and I've known many chiros including my current gf, and they were all quite reasonable and well-trained professionals. To be sure, the chiros claiming that adjustments can treat asthma, diabetes, etc. draw skepticism from MDs. But there is medical literature supporting the use of chiropractory in, for example, lower back pain. In fact, I was taught in medical school that referral to a chiro was a reasonable treatment option for lower back pain supported by randomized studies. Also, many chiros function more like PAs for MDs anyway. My gf basically does all the postop visits and follow ups for an orthopedic surgeon.
Good post Doc
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It's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but there is no scientific proof of it so far. "Placebo" is very real, if people are convinced they are helped by something, then they'll also feel that way. Power of the mind.
I'm a man of science so I'll only ever be convinced when there is some kind of (objective) proof. Except for philosophical questions which are of course outside the realm of science entirely.
The placebo effect has been shown to be evident in the allopathic arena of medicine. The is objective proof that chiropractic is beneficial. There has been objective proof that certain medications cause more harm than good. Does that mean that all medicine is bad?
You talk to a few orthopoedic surgeons who dislike chiropractic. I wasn't aware that orthopoedic surgeons were the top of the food chain in the MD world. How about a neurosurgeon who supports chiropractic care? A orthopoedic surgeons job is the cut someone open. Plain and simple. Bottom line. Black and white. So, if there is something that will take money out of their pocket, would it not stand to reason they would not be in favor of it? Thats like Volkswagon supporting Delta Airlines.
There is stuff out there that proves you wrong. There is stuff that supports what you say (a few things, but not a lot). The bottom line is you are making a blanket statement that no matter what we do, what we say, what good we do that you will consider us quacks. You take the opinion of some orthopoedic surgeons and dont bother to research things on your own.
So many will say "I know this guy who's head exploded after an adjustment" kind of thing. Yes, there are risks. A competent doctor will explain the risks and do what they can to avoid those risks. Shall I pull up the stories of orthopoedic surgeons operating on the wrong bodypart? In the last few years they actually have had to make the patients take a sharpie pen and write on the part that was to be operated on. WOW. Does anyone bother to read the patients history/chart??
Here is some info for you. Are these guys quacks?
...some researchers and patient safety experts say the problem of wrong-site surgery has not improved and may be getting worse, although spotty reporting makes conclusions difficult. Based on state data, Joint Commission officials estimate that wrong-site surgery occurs 40 times a week in U.S. hospitals and clinics. Last year 93 cases were reported to the accrediting organization, compared with 49 in 2004. Reporting to the commission is voluntary and confidential -- to encourage doctors and hospitals to come forward and to make improvements, officials say. About half the states, including Virginia, do not require reporting. In two states that track and intensively study these errors, 48 cases were reported in Minnesota last year, up from 44 in 2009; Pennsylvania has averaged about 64 cases for the past few years.
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2011/june/21/wrong-site-surgery-errors.aspx
RonOncDoc:
I am fully behind you. The ones who make the outlandish claims are the ones I despise. I would love to burn their offices to the ground. The ones who brow beat the prospective patients into coughing up thousands, upon thousands of dollars for pre-paid care. I give my patients the same care plans that MD's do when referring to a PT. We treat for 4 - 6 weeks, then re-evaluate. I have referred patients to orthopoedic docs, pain management docs, etc. They refer to me when someone has come to them without trying conservative treatment. Not one has said a bad word about me.
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I've seen some miracles in my docs office man. Legitimately, amazing things. If the patients truly were "faking it", they deserve Oscars.
I myself got into the profession because of my remarkable experience with it when I got my first adjustment at age 19. I told myself right there that if I wanted to help people in my life, this was what I NEEDED to do. I need to share this with people. And I've seen hundreds of cases just like myself. If I hit the jackpot tomorrow and won $100 million, I would still finish school and continue to practice and treat patients, that's how positive and rewarding my own experience has been.
Oh, and no homo.
You and Moen already talked about it but come on, you should know better than this. Anecdotes are absolutely worthless when it comes to evidence-based medicine. Some people swear that their cancer was cured with homeopathic remedies, would you tell them to ignore all scientific evidence and become homeopaths themselves? People can believe all kinds of stuff.
There is some, but I agree I wish there was more. Research is not my passion, treating patients is. But guaranteed within the next 5 years there will be a surge. They're doing some cool stuff analyzing nerve conduction velocities and their association with vertebral subluxations and it's role in nerve interference. Quantifying the data has been the hardest part here AKA Nerves are a bitch to study!
There's also a massive evidence-based movement occurring at the chiropractic college level. Like I said, within 5 years there will be much more out there.
And what if those studies reveal that chiropractics is not any better than placebo treament? The most well done and rigorous studies done so far have already shown that that is pretty much the case. If I'm not mistaken, the U.S government spends several hundred million dollars each year on A.M research and a substantial part of it has been used for chiropractics and homeopathy. Maybe more time, money and energy needs to be spent conducting these studies? But when is it really time to face up to the facts?
What kind of scientific evidence would you find satisfactory to change your beliefs in the career path you've chosen?
There is verifiable data to support neural interference caused by vertebral subluxations though?
Not that I've read, if we're talking about "chiropractic subluxations" that is. Chiropractors haven't even agreed among themselves exactly what a "subluxation" really is. I'd actually be curios if one of you chiro's could describe in your own words what a subluxation really is, the definition you'd use to diagnose a patient.
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I gotta back you guys up here. I think it's unfair to call all chiros "quacks." I'm an MD, and I've known many chiros including my current gf, and they were all quite reasonable and well-trained professionals. To be sure, the chiros claiming that adjustments can treat asthma, diabetes, etc. draw skepticism from MDs. But there is medical literature supporting the use of chiropractory in, for example, lower back pain. In fact, I was taught in medical school that referral to a chiro was a reasonable treatment option for lower back pain supported by randomized studies. Also, many chiros function more like PAs for MDs anyway. My gf basically does all the postop visits and follow ups for an orthopedic surgeon.
My beef with chiro's is that the large majority of them won't stop there and act within what the scientific method tells them that they should, instead they go on about "subluxations", upper back pain, neck pain etcetc. If they focused on the stuff that has been proven to work with a sound scientific philosophy behind it, I would not call them quacks.
But just because they happen to be able to somewhat treat/cure a certain condition doesn't mean they're not quacks.
The main ingredient in aspirin came from traditional herbal medicine, but that doesn't mean that most herbal medicine people aren't quacks.
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You and Moen already talked about it but come on, you should know better than this. Anecdotes are absolutely worthless when it comes to evidence-based medicine. Some people swear that their cancer was cured with homeopathic remedies, would you tell them to ignore all scientific evidence and become homeopaths themselves? People can believe all kinds of stuff.
read the book Cancer Killers by Dr. Majors and tell me what you think. I also understand what you're saying, but there is another side to the argument as well that IMO is equally as relevant
And what if those studies reveal that chiropractics is not any better than placebo treament? The most well done and rigorous studies done so far have already shown that that is pretty much the case. If I'm not mistaken, the U.S government spends several hundred million dollars each year on A.M research and a substantial part of it has been used for chiropractics and homeopathy. Maybe more time, money and energy needs to be spent conducting these studies? But when is it really time to face up to the facts?
this is simply not true, this is much of our own opinion projected here, which you are entititled to. The government just issued another multi million dollar grant to my school to publish more literature this year. Not that this justifies our profession, but it kind of does in the sense that they are throwing money at us to put this out there, begging us for residencies in their VA programs, along with everything else I mentioned above.
What kind of scientific evidence would you find satisfactory to change your beliefs in the career path you've chosen?
when I learn that chiropractic is harmful, or that it does nothing, I would throw in the towel. So far, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I live this stuff, I see the good it does every single day, the kids who get helped, the athletes. Its an overwhelming amount of positive feedback. My doc back home who has a ridiculously busy practice has MDs coming in all the time asking to shadow him and Learn what he does, because they dont understand why their patients are responding better under chiropractic care instead and getting off their meds. Some docs become enraged when their egos start to take a hit, but most MDs are blown away and have a newfound respect when they learn what we actually do, and the referrals come pouring in.
Not that I've read, if we're talking about "chiropractic subluxations" that is. Chiropractors haven't even agreed among themselves exactly what a "subluxation" really is. I'd actually be curios if one of you chiro's could describe in your own words what a subluxation really is, the definition you'd use to diagnose a patient.
this is very overblown. There is some minor disagreement over semantics, but the majority of DCs agree on it. Vertebral subluxation is when a vertebrae has moved from its proper juxtaposition with the segment above, the segment below, or both, which impinges on the spinal nerve, and interferes with the transmission of mental impulses. This can be verified through motion palpation, which can be measured with a whole slew of instruments, through surface neurocalometer readings (TyTron), through x-ray, the list goes on. The difference in a subluxation free joint and a subluxation joint is night and day bro, I can take somebody with zero experience and teach them this in 10 mins if I have a body in front of me. Remember, your CNS controls everything. Interfere with its proper function, and your health will be affected
what is your profession bro?
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My beef with chiro's is that the large majority of them won't stop there and act within what the scientific method tells them that they should, instead they go on about "subluxations", upper back pain, neck pain etcetc. If they focused on the stuff that has been proven to work with a sound scientific philosophy behind it, I would not call them quacks.
But just because they happen to be able to somewhat treat/cure a certain condition doesn't mean they're not quacks.
The main ingredient in aspirin came from traditional herbal medicine, but that doesn't mean that most herbal medicine people aren't quacks.
BINGO
This is what it largely comes down to. You have a different philosophy regarding health care than I do. You have been taught By the medical community What your approach to health should be. And that is fine, to each his own. But in my health care model, I'm seeing lives changed for the better every single day, people getting off their meds, feeling better, improving their health in an inexpensive, non invasive, remarkably safe manner.
Food for thought: the next time you have a headache and take some aspirin, ask yourself, "is my body deficient in aspirin today?" Is that why you take it? That should fix the problem right? Or maybe, it's just masking the symptoms?
Disclaimer: I'm not anti-medicine at all, but I think there are often times, better routes to optimal health. Do you know how many times we've had patients come in for their first visit and been on a laundry list of meds, half of which are prescribed to treat symptoms from other drugs, often times certain drugs even have OPPOSING actions in the body. It's crazy man...I see it all the time. These people aren't healthy.
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This post is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response. The same type of bro-logic as saying "13 minute window post workout or you'll go catabolic." ::)
Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth. Can you even name 28 other countries? That number is astounding. It seems the current medical model doesn't seem to be working so well. We are sicker than ever as a society, and it is getting worse each year.
I'm sure you have educated yourself on the history of chiropractic and the massive lawsuit that the American Medical Association LOST to the chiropractic profession when they attempted to sabotage our public image in an attempt to monopolize the healthcare system in America many years ago. You know this story, yes?
Every pro sports team in America has a DC on staff. Most (if not all) top 10 Olympians receive regular care. 30 million Americans each year receive care. Are these people all brainwashed? Adding to krank's list, Vince Taylor volunteered for free to do a 1 day seminar at my school, advocating how chiropractic saved his career. I talked with the guy for 30 mins over a cup of coffee. Aaron Roger's (GB Packers) dad is a DC, hes another huge proponent. As is Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Tiger Woods, the list goes on....Are these people all brainwashed?
Let's keep pumping America full of Lipitor, Prozac, and Adderall...this has to be the key to optimal health, right?
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
You guys sound like a cult.
Are you scientologists?
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You guys sound like a cult.
Are you scientologists?
Yes, yes we are. Wanna join? Tom really wants to meet you.
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Yes, yes we are. Wanna join? Tom really wants to meet you.
You quoted some names there, this guy, that guy, the other guy. Some big numbers, too.
If I asked Scientologists abou the efficacy of their religion, they'd probably try the same shit.
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My beef with chiro's is that the large majority of them won't stop there and act within what the scientific method tells them that they should, instead they go on about "subluxations", upper back pain, neck pain etcetc. If they focused on the stuff that has been proven to work with a sound scientific philosophy behind it, I would not call them quacks.
But just because they happen to be able to somewhat treat/cure a certain condition doesn't mean they're not quacks.
The main ingredient in aspirin came from traditional herbal medicine, but that doesn't mean that most herbal medicine people aren't quacks.
Exactly. There is too much of this inter-professional squabbling. FFS...just treat the damn patient and STFU. I am scorned by many in my profession and labeled a "medi-practor" because I use physio therapy along with my adjustments. I think that there are times where medications are necessary.
Do you agree that there are quacks in the MD arena?
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You quoted some names there, this guy, that guy, the other guy. Some big numbers, too.
If I asked Scientologists abou the efficacy of their religion, they'd probably try the same shit.
I'm sorry if you felt scared at any point during this thread. I'm here for you...if you need to talk.
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I'm sorry if you felt scared at any point during this thread. I'm here for you...if you need to talk.
Right now a blowjob is more of what I need. Use your chiro skill ;)
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Right now a blowjob is more of what I need. Use your chiro skill ;)
I'd be better suited for a handy, right?
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I'd be better suited for a handy, right?
I'm sure you've got excellent hand-mouth coordination ;)
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I'm sure you've got excellent hand-mouth coordination ;)
OneMoreRep approved
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You guys sound like a cult.
Are you scientologists?
A cult has to do with religion, by definition.
We, are just a group of whack jobs. In fact I told someone this morning that I could help their baldness if they sign up for 5yrs worth of care. YES!!! Down payment on Porche - ACCOMPLISHED!!!!
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A cult has to do with religion, by definition.
We, are just a group of whack jobs. In fact I told someone this morning that I could help their baldness if they sign up for 5yrs worth of care. YES!!! Down payment on Porche - ACCOMPLISHED!!!!
How many chiropractors does it take to change a lightbulb?
Only 1, but it takes 5 visits ;D
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Aw, you two chiros are so sweet :)
I've got nothing against your practice, am too uninformed to comment on its usefuleness or scientific orthodoxy or whatever. What I do know, is that when you're fucked up and doctors keep passing you between them like a ping-pong ball, you'll turn to anything, chiropracty, god, l ron hubbard, getbig, whatever
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Is this the book you're talking about?
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/cancer-killers (http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/cancer-killers)
I can already tell from a quick glance that it's not a source to be trusted in any way, shape or form.
The Cancer Killers: The Cause Is The Cure offers a radically new perspective on cancer, overcoming the prevailing half-century-old fatalistic view of "its all in the genes" into a liberating and empowering new vision of what the human body is capable of overcoming, given the right conditions.
From the first-hand experience of Dr. Charles Majors, who overcame an "incurable" form of metastatic bone cancer, to the theoretical framework provided by Sayer Ji and Dr. Ben Lerner within which self-healing from cancer is made intelligible, this book strikes to the root causes of and solutions for the cancer epidemic.
Offers radical new treatment, claims to tear apart conventional medicine, first-hand experiences(read:anecdotes) etcetc. These are all huge warning signs that say "pseudo science". I'm sorry man but I'm not even going to bother reading it which is perhaps a bit close-minded but I've read so much of that kind of junk before.
The fact that they still spend millions upon millions of dollars on homeopathy research pretty much says it all, the people deciding who get research grants and who doesn't are obviously brainwashed or ignorant to a certain degree. Harsh words I know, but tbh there's not a lot of other ways of putting it.
Still you're relying on anecdotes. Replace chiro's with homeopaths and replace yourself with someone else that believes in A.M and I promise you they'll tell me the exact same story:
when I learn that ......... is harmful, or that it does nothing, I would throw in the towel. So far, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I live this stuff, I see the good it does every single day, the kids who get helped, the athletes. Its an overwhelming amount of positive feedback. My doc back home who has a ridiculously busy practice has MDs coming in all the time asking to shadow him and Learn what he does, because they dont understand why their patients are responding better under ................ care instead and getting off their meds. Some docs become enraged when their egos start to take a hit, but most MDs are blown away and have a newfound respect when they learn what we actually do, and the referrals come pouring in.
I see these kind of testimonials about every single A.M there is so I hope you understand why it's worthless to me, at least. What I'm interested in is evidence-based medicine.
Interfere with its proper function, and your health will be affected
Exactly what kind of health are you talking about here? Does health mean anything else but lower back pain? If it does, you're walking on very thin ice, evidence-wise.
I'm currently a mechanical engineering student.
BINGO
This is what it largely comes down to. You have a different philosophy regarding health care than I do. You have been taught By the medical community What your approach to health should be. And that is fine, to each his own. But in my health care model, I'm seeing lives changed for the better every single day, people getting off their meds, feeling better, improving their health in an inexpensive, non invasive, remarkably safe manner.
Food for thought: the next time you have a headache and take some aspirin, ask yourself, "is my body deficient in aspirin today?" Is that why you take it? That should fix the problem right? Or maybe, it's just masking the symptoms?
Disclaimer: I'm not anti-medicine at all, but I think there are often times, better routes to optimal health. Do you know how many times we've had patients come in for their first visit and been on a laundry list of meds, half of which are prescribed to treat symptoms from other drugs, often times certain drugs even have OPPOSING actions in the body. It's crazy man...I see it all the time. These people aren't healthy.
The scientific method applies to us all, no matter if we like or not. It's not just "a different way" of looking at things, it's straight up the best method we have currently have to find out how nature and the universe works. It's not something you dismiss as just "another" philosophy. Either you are interested in coming closer and closer to the truth, or you ain't.
The fact that our average lifespan is well above 50 years and we all have reasonable dental health(major killer for cave men), have vaccines, antibiotics, preventive care etcetc is ALL due to modern evidence based medicine. ALL. OF. IT. Just roughly 150-200 years ago the best treatment "doctors" had to offer was bloodletting, which really should tell you something. What has happened since then? Modern evidence-based medicine.
It's not perfect by any means but we are consistently getting better at it and it's by far the best we've got. Put chiropractics up the same standard and see how it holds up.
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I work with a bullshitter a.k.a. "one upper". Whatever you may accomplish this dude has done it better.
He looks like a black George Costanza from Seinfeld. Chubby with man boobs, belly, short 5'8" or so and reaks of cheap cologne.
In response to me buying a Porsche: "I have a Lexus with a corvette motor that would smoke yours...it's in my garage."
In response after coming back from a vacation: "I was in my high rise condo in Miami during a hurricane and saw a car being spun around by the hurricane in the middle of the sea flying by my condo."
In response to a sales rep that walked into our department: "I married a fashion model that was wayyy hotter."
His now ex wife sued him for child support and alimony for the last 20 years ...and has never worked a day in her life.
In response to someone taking a few days off after an allergic reaction to a bee sting: " every time I walk out of my house I have to put on a bee suit because I have honey bees by my garage." I asked him even during the winter? "He said, yes during the winter too." I replied: Bees hibernate during the winter. ...he changed the subject quickly.
He claims to jog 5 miles daily...but I believe if he actually ran that much he would die of a heart attack.
Claimed to have "held his own" against a National Champion wrestler in college. ...he has 0 experience wrestling.
These are just some of the best ones I can think of right now
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This thread sure derailed.
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Do you agree that there are quacks in the MD arena?
Absolutely. I'll clarify and say that I'd assume that the medical training they got was not straight up quackery if they got it from an acknowledged university/medschool but I'm more than sure there are certified doctors out there that believe in and prescribe all kinds of nonsense.
But that makes me wonder exactly where you are going with that question? There is a huge difference between individual rotten apples and rotten apple tree's, you know.
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Absolutely. I'll clarify and say that I'd assume that the medical training they got was not straight up quackery if they got it from an acknowledged university/medschool but I'm more than sure there are certified doctors out there that believe in and prescribe all kinds of nonsense.
But that makes me wonder exactly where you are going with that question? There is a huge difference between individual rotten apples and rotten apple tree's, you know.
Where I am going is this...people are so quick to jump on the 'quack' label for a chiropractor. Yet, how many people (as you mentioned) have been passed from this guy, to this guy, to this guy. I have one patient who (as god is my witness) said straight out to me when I tried to get a history on him "Enough with the fucking questions. Why is it that all you doctors want to do is ask fucking questions? You ask, and ask, and ask. Not one thing I have done has helped despite all of these god damned questions".
LOL...I was like "Ok, Ed. Heres what I am going to do. Lets just find out about you as we go along". This guy is bent over at about a 30 - 40 degree angle when he walks in. He leaves, walking more upright. Is he still in pain? Yep. Will he ever be pain free? Nope. He has 3 - 4 levels of discs that are either bulging or herniated. He has MASSIVE bone spurs on a couple of lumbar vertebra. Did I cause them? Nope. Can I reverse them? Nope. What can I do? Help him feel better. I adjust him, I put him in with my massage therapist (which I do not get reimbursed for due to the fact he has medicare...and they only cover spinal adjustments) for about 30 mins. The guys demeanor has improved. Again, do I claim I can 'cure' him. Nope. Is that being a quack?
Take a look at the article I made a link to. Look at the alarming statistics that are presented on unnecessary surgeries. Would you call one of those guys a quack for performing them? How about the guy who removes the wrong kidney? Is he a quack? How about the guy who attempts a surgery that he knows he is not very well trained for...but his ego won't let him admit he shouldn't be doing it. Is he quack?
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Where I am going is this...people are so quick to jump on the 'quack' label for a chiropractor. Yet, how many people (as you mentioned) have been passed from this guy, to this guy, to this guy. I have one patient who (as god is my witness) said straight out to me when I tried to get a history on him "Enough with the fucking questions. Why is it that all you doctors want to do is ask fucking questions? You ask, and ask, and ask. Not one thing I have done has helped despite all of these god damned questions".
LOL...I was like "Ok, Ed. Heres what I am going to do. Lets just find out about you as we go along". This guy is bent over at about a 30 - 40 degree angle when he walks in. He leaves, walking more upright. Is he still in pain? Yep. Will he ever be pain free? Nope. He has 3 - 4 levels of discs that are either bulging or herniated. He has MASSIVE bone spurs on a couple of lumbar vertebra. Did I cause them? Nope. Can I reverse them? Nope. What can I do? Help him feel better. I adjust him, I put him in with my massage therapist (which I do not get reimbursed for due to the fact he has medicare...and they only cover spinal adjustments) for about 30 mins. The guys demeanor has improved. Again, do I claim I can 'cure' him. Nope. Is that being a quack?
Take a look at the article I made a link to. Look at the alarming statistics that are presented on unnecessary surgeries. Would you call one of those guys a quack for performing them? How about the guy who removes the wrong kidney? Is he a quack? How about the guy who attempts a surgery that he knows he is not very well trained for...but his ego won't let him admit he shouldn't be doing it. Is he quack?
I definitely get what you're saying and you're right about the fact that the medical SYSTEM leaves a lot to be desired, which unfortunately in the end is a matter of budgets, politics and overall bullshit. The science behind modern treatments is still marching on strong, though.
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On a somewhat unrelated note;
When nanotechnology starts to have practical applications in medicine, the world will never be the same. It might just be the "ultimate" pill. There are really no theoretical bounds to how much nanotechnology can improve and heal our bodies.
The really exciting part is that most of us here will live to see it happen. And perhaps even live on much longer than we first might have expected.
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I definitely get what you're saying and you're right about the fact that the medical SYSTEM leaves a lot to be desired, which unfortunately in the end is a matter of budgets, politics and overall bullshit. The science behind modern treatments is still marching on strong, though.
The medical community uses the same thoughts as we do though. I just had a discussion with an MD who's been in practice for 30 years regarding the use of Adderall. He said flat out, there is no test that deems a person eligible for the prescription of the drug. There are no bio markers to check for ADD. But, as long as
Patients respond positively to the drug, and it enhances performance and quality of life with no downsides, why would he NOT prescribe it, even if there is no scientific test telling him that it is appropriate?
This is one example, there are countless others, of MDs following the same train of thought. To rank one of us as being "better" than the other is wrong. We do different things, we subscribe to different principles regarding the Body and it's ability to heal.
The idea that the medical community only subscribes to hard evidence-based clinical research is not a true statement bro. There are things that both of us do, to treat patients, that WORK. And some things we have no explanations for. But the happy patients and results we see are speaking for themselves.
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I definitely get what you're saying and you're right about the fact that the medical SYSTEM leaves a lot to be desired, which unfortunately in the end is a matter of budgets, politics and overall bullshit. The science behind modern treatments is still marching on strong, though.
You're right, it IS bullshit. When someone with medicare comes into my office that needs physical therapy...I have to charge them for that because medicare does not reimburse for that for chiros. PT's..yes. Will the patient get the same care if done by me? Yep. Also, one thing that gives my profession the bad name is the patients who are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. You have a guy come in who is 320lbs with TWO blown discs in his back...and after three treatments tells me that the pain down his leg is not better and that the treatment isnt working. Well, so sorry that my adjustment won't make you lose 100+ lbs so that your spine won't have to bear the brunt of so much excess bodyweight. So sorry that you have had this pain for nearly 3yrs and even though it would come and go, you didn't ever think you needed treatment until that radiating pain is now down to your heel and its keeping you up at night. So sorry that you don't think you should have to pay your co-pays because the care didn't magically get you better like you wanted.
If it weren't for the patients and the staff, I would love what I do!! ;D
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The medical community uses the same thoughts as we do though. I just had a discussion with an MD who's been in practice for 30 years regarding the use of Adderall. He said flat out, there is no test that deems a person eligible for the prescription of the drug. There are no bio markers to check for ADD. But, as long as
Patients respond positively to the drug, and it enhances performance and quality of life with no downsides, why would he NOT prescribe it, even if there is no scientific test telling him that it is appropriate?
This is one example, there are countless others, of MDs following the same train of thought. To rank one of us as being "better" than the other is wrong. We do different things, we subscribe to different principles regarding the Body and it's ability to heal.
Well funny you should mention that, since I don't have much faith in psychology either. Today's neuroscience, which undoubtedly has made huge strides, is still in its infancy. We still have a very poor understanding of how the brain works and one consequence of that is the example you just mentioned. Still the solution to that problem remains to be found through science.
I definitely see your point, though. I do have two objections if one is comparing that example to chiropractics;
1) Adderall from what I know, actually does have an effect that is way stronger beyond placebo. If not super-strong, then at least it's measurable.
2) The symptoms Adderall is prescribed for is to my knowledge symptoms that doesn't have many origins/roots except for "the brain works in mysterious ways", which is a good thing since it decreases the risk of Adderall masking the symptoms of another potentially harmful/fatal disease(I'll point out that I do not have a medical background, so I could very well be wrong on this.). The danger with chiropractics and placebos is that the placeboeffect could potentially mask symptoms of a much graver problem.
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Well funny you should mention that, since I don't have much faith in psychology either. Today's neuroscience, which undoubtedly has made huge strides, is still in its infancy. We still have a very poor understanding of how the brain works and one consequence of that is the example you just mentioned. Still the solution to that problem remains to be found through science.
I definitely see your point, though. I do have two objections if one is comparing that example to chiropractics;
1) Adderall from what I know, actually does have an effect that is way stronger beyond placebo. If not super-strong, then at least it's measurable.
2) The symptoms Adderall is prescribed is to my knowledge symptoms that doesn't have many origins/roots except for "the brain works in mysterious ways", which is a good thing since it decreases the risk of Adderall masking the symptoms of another potentially harmful/fatal disease(I'll point out that I do not have a medical background, so I could very well be wrong on this.). The danger with chiropractics and placebos that the placeboeffect could potentially mask symptoms of a much graver problem.
Lol I could say as well "the danger with mainstream medicine is that they often times treat the symptoms, without addressing the cause, which is masking the root problem."
Ex: back pain, let's take pain meds instead of correcting biomechanical deficiencies. Otitis media, let's prescribe more antibiotics without checking for upper cervical nerve interference That is promoting the pathology, etc.
For what is worth, In my time involved with this, I've yet to hear of a patient who was feeling so good due to placebo affect that they disregarding an MDs advice and ended up hurting themself/dying, or a patient who ended up worse off via placebo effect and later complications. Never heard of it happening. And any DC that will NOT refer out to an MD if the patient needs it, is truly a BAD doctor. Just last week I was shadowing with a local DC and a patient came in presenting with stroke-like symptoms. The doc had her lie down on the table, ran to the phone and called an ambulance. Saved her life by being a smart doctor and not trying to overstep his scope of practice but following the basic checklists we learn in school.
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Lol I could say as well "the danger with mainstream medicine is that they often times treat the symptoms, without addressing the cause, which is masking the root problem."
Ex: back pain, let's take pain meds instead of correcting biomechanical deficiencies. Otitis media, let's prescribe more antibiotics without checking for upper cervical nerve interference That is promoting the pathology, etc.
Which is also true, but I think you're missing the point. Evidence based medicine will eventually(or at least tries to) correct these faulty diagnostics and treatments because after all, it relies on finding out what works and what doesn't. Again, modern medicine isn't by any means perfect, but it keeps making improvements almost monthly.
Chiropractics that relies mostly on the placebo effect(as the most rigorous studies shows) does present a danger by not even honestly trying to find out what the best way to treat the illness really is. No, lets subject the patient to a ton of a x-rays, make em pay for 10 treatments in advance and crack their backs. That should take care of it ::)
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Which is also true, but I think you're missing the point. Evidence based medicine will eventually(or at least tries to) correct these faulty diagnostics and treatments because after all, it relies on finding out what works and what doesn't. Again, modern medicine isn't by any means perfect, but it keeps making improvements almost monthly.
Chiropractics that relies mostly on the placebo effect(as the most rigorous studies shows) does present a danger by not even honestly trying to find out what the best way to treat the illness really is. No, lets subject the patient to a ton of a x-rays, make em pay for 10 treatments in advance and crack their backs. That should take care of it ::)
Show me these placebo studies?
The issue is we do try to find the best way, it just conflicts with your view point.
Also, a ton of X rays? I've never heard of a DC taking more than 1 set of films. Is your point the danger of radiation? Know how much radiation your iPhone puts out? Know how much radiation you are exposed to on a flight from Seattle to Chicago?
I'm afraid you are dismissing what we actually do. If you are ever in the Midwest, hit me up. Spend a few hours with me in a docs office and see for yourself. I've never had anyone leave the office I work at with a negative view of it, EVER. And I've had some real assholes like yourself come in :D JK bro
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For what is worth, In my time involved with this, I've yet to hear of a patient who was feeling so good due to placebo affect that they disregarding an MDs advice and ended up hurting themself/dying, or a patient who ended up worse off via placebo effect and later complications. Never heard of it happening. And any DC that will NOT refer out to an MD if the patient needs it, is truly a BAD doctor. Just last week I was shadowing with a local DC and a patient came in presenting with stroke-like symptoms. The doc had her lie down on the table, ran to the phone and called an ambulance. Saved her life by being a smart doctor and not trying to overstep his scope of practice but following the basic checklists we learn in school.
I honestly don't remember any statistics when it comes the chiro's and placeboeffect masking etc but I do know that it's a much bigger problem among homeopaths since they claim to cure all kinds of shit. I guess it also depends on what type of chiropractor we're talking about. Some of them have absolutely no shame whatsoever and others actually do care about what works and what doesn't.
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I honestly don't remember any statistics when it comes the chiro's and placeboeffect masking etc but I do know that it's a much bigger problem among homeopaths since they claim to cure all kinds of shit. I guess it also depends on what type of chiropractor we're talking about. Some of them have absolutely no shame whatsoever and others actually do care about what works and what doesn't.
I thought you said "as the most rigorous studies show"??? I was hoping you'd send me some good studies
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I honestly don't remember any statistics when it comes the chiro's and placeboeffect masking etc but I do know that it's a much bigger problem among homeopaths since they claim to cure all kinds of shit. I guess it also depends on what type of chiropractor we're talking about. Some of them have absolutely no shame whatsoever and others actually do care about what works and what doesn't.
I agree for any doctor, for any profession at that!
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Show me these placebo studies?
The issue is we do try to find the best way, it just conflicts with your view point.
Also, a ton of X rays? I've never heard of a DC taking more than 1 set of films. Is your point the danger of radiation? Know how much radiation your iPhone puts out? Know how much radiation you are exposed to on a flight from Seattle to Chicago?
I'm afraid you are dismissing what we actually do. If you are ever in the Midwest, hit me up. Spend a few hours with me in a docs office and see for yourself. I've never had anyone leave the office I work at with a negative view of it, EVER. And I've had some real assholes like yourself come in :D JK bro
Again, depends on what type of person the chiropractor is. I'm glad to hear you're not one of the "bad" kind.
I thought you said "as the most rigorous studies show"??? I was hoping you'd send me some good studies
I'm looking through some books right now, I'll see if I can find them.
I agree for any doctor, for any profession at that!
Nah true to only a certain extent. Overall I think it's safe to say that the track record for modern evidence based medicine is much more impressive than that of chiropractics even though both of them have good and rotten apples. It simply due to a totally different approach to science.
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Nah true to only a certain extent. Overall I think it's safe to say that the track record for modern evidence based medicine is much more impressive than that of chiropractics even though both of them have good and rotten apples. It simply due to a totally different approach to science.
200k accidental deaths a year due to malpractice? That's bad. As is the statistic about prescription drug interaction being the top 5 causes of death in the US. That's impressively BAD news man
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I work with a bullshitter a.k.a. "one upper". Whatever you may accomplish this dude has done it better.
He looks like a black George Costanza from Seinfeld. Chubby with man boobs, belly, short 5'8" or so and reaks of cheap cologne.
In response to me buying a Porsche: "I have a Lexus with a corvette motor that would smoke yours...it's in my garage."
In response after coming back from a vacation: "I was in my high rise condo in Miami during a hurricane and saw a car being spun around by the hurricane in the middle of the sea flying by my condo."
In response to a sales rep that walked into our department: "I married a fashion model that was wayyy hotter."
His now ex wife sued him for child support and alimony for the last 20 years ...and has never worked a day in her life.
In response to someone taking a few days off after an allergic reaction to a bee sting: " every time I walk out of my house I have to put on a bee suit because I have honey bees by my garage." I asked him even during the winter? "He said, yes during the winter too." I replied: Bees hibernate during the winter. ...he changed the subject quickly.
He claims to jog 5 miles daily...but I believe if he actually ran that much he would die of a heart attack.
Claimed to have "held his own" against a National Champion wrestler in college. ...he has 0 experience wrestling.
These are just some of the best ones I can think of right now
lolz classic
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200k accidental deaths a year due to malpractice? That's bad. As is the statistic about prescription drug interaction being the top 5 causes of death in the US. That's impressively BAD news man
Again, that is a problem with the SYSTEM, not the underlying science. Are you saying chiropractors would do a better job if they were primary care providers for america? I kinda see your point, but at the same time not. Funny fact, from one of the books I'm looking through right now, I'm reading that according to a study done in 1995 roughly 90% of all chiropractors considered themselves as primary care providers. I hope that number has changed since then.
I'm still digging, btw. I also just discovered that I've contracted pink eye. Looks like I'll be heading to the doctor for some antibiotics tomorrow, jesus goddamn christ.
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Again, that is a problem with the SYSTEM, not the underlying science. Are you saying chiropractors would do a better job if they were primary care providers for america? I kinda see your point, but at the same time not. Funny fact, from one of the books I'm looking through right now, I'm reading that according to a study done in 1995 roughly 90% of all chiropractors considered themselves as primary care providers. I hope that number has changed since then.
I'm still digging, btw. I also just discovered that I've contracted pink eye. Looks like I'll be heading to the doctor for some antibiotics tomorrow, jesus goddamn christ.
Lol in America we are primary care providers bro. What country do you live in?
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Again, that is a problem with the SYSTEM, not the underlying science. Are you saying chiropractors would do a better job if they were primary care providers for america? I kinda see your point, but at the same time not. Funny fact, from one of the books I'm looking through right now, I'm reading that according to a study done in 1995 roughly 90% of all chiropractors considered themselves as primary care providers. I hope that number has changed since then.
I'm still digging, btw. I also just discovered that I've contracted pink eye. Looks like I'll be heading to the doctor for some antibiotics tomorrow, jesus goddamn christ.
I can't understand this statement whatsoever. The system killed these people? Not the science? Come again?
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Pfewww.....Dr Dutch is gonna sit this one out... ;D
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i went to a chiropractor for 4 weeks took six months of physio do undo the damge he did
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Lol in America we are primary care providers bro. What country do you live in?
Scandinavia.
So in what way are you primary care providers? As a legal definition or do you think that people should go to their chiropractors for all type of ailments?
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I can't understand this statement whatsoever. The system killed these people? Not the science? Come again?
You did say malpractice, right?
By system I mean the doctors themselves, the organisation around them, equipment, nurses etc etc. These are all always bound to screw up to a certain degree. But that doesn't invalidate the idea of evidence-based medicine.
I guess the science could be "wrong" too, but only in the sense that not enough studies have been done or the results of them have been misinterpreted.
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Pfewww.....Dr Dutch is gonna sit this one out... ;D
I can imagine that for a doctor to read these posts back and forth it's gotta be something like a theoretical physicist reading a post about the mass of photons by tbombz. In other words, painful. ;D
I have no idea which side you're on, but I'm sure both me, chiro and krankenstein are spouting all kinds of bullshit.
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I can imagine that for a doctor to read these posts back and forth it's gotta be something like a theoretical physicist reading a post about the mass of photons by tbombz. In other words, painful. ;D
I have no idea which side you're on, but I'm sure both me, chiro and krankenstein are spouting all kinds of bullshit.
Reminds me of the fistfight I once witnessed at a bar over whether Harvard or Stanford was a better school. Both combatants were high school dropouts.
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Scandinavia.
So in what way are you primary care providers? As a legal definition or do you think that people should go to their chiropractors for all type of ailments?
I don't know what it means in other countries but a primary care professional in the US is someone you go to for general health concerns and they figure out if you need specialized help and if so where to refer you. Many chiros in the US consider themselves PC providers but I'm not sure why, they have much more in common with specialists, like a dentist or a physician who specializes in sports medicine, or a podiatrist (foot doctor).
Although there's no legal definition of "primary care" that I'm aware of, i.e. there's no list that says "these people can call themselves PC, these people can't".
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i went to a chiropractor for 4 weeks took six months of physio do undo the damge he did
Although it wouldn't be anything more than an anecdote I'm still be curios to hear your story if you don't mind.
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I don't know what it means in other countries but a primary care professional in the US is someone you go to for general health concerns and they figure out if you need specialized help and if so where to refer you. Many chiros in the US consider themselves PC providers but I'm not sure why, they have much more in common with specialists, like a dentist or a physician who specializes in sports medicine, or a podiatrist (foot doctor).
Although there's no legal definition of "primary care" that I'm aware of, i.e. there's no list that says "these people can call themselves PC, these people can't".
OK that's pretty weird. I'm sure there are good chiro's out there that will immediately admit when they're out of their depth and send their patients to the proper doctor, but unfortunately there are a lot of straight up quacks out there that abuse the trust that is given to them by the patients. It's a shame that they're given the title of a "doctor".
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i went to a chiropractor for 4 weeks took six months of physio do undo the damge he did
If a chiropractor doesn't do anything, how could it take six months to undo the damage they did?
Even still, what kind of damage was done that you had to go through six months of physical therapy to have it undone?
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If a chiropractor doesn't do anything, how could it take six months to undo the damage they did?
Even still, what kind of damage was done that you had to go through six months of physical therapy to have it undone?
I don't think anyone is arguing that chiro's don't do anything, the question is rather if it's effective as a treatment or not.
There are recorded cases of neck "adjustments" going terribly wrong, though. Fortunately they don't seem to be very common.
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Scandinavia.
So in what way are you primary care providers? As a legal definition or do you think that people should go to their chiropractors for all type of ailments?
PCP = a physician who usually is the first health professional to examine a patient and who recommends secondary care physicians, medical or surgical specialists with expertise in the patient's specific health problem, if further treatment is needed.
Reminds me of the fistfight I once witnessed at a bar over whether Harvard or Stanford was a better school. Both combatants were high school dropouts.
Funny thing is that I graduated high school, undergrad, and now have post grad degree.
OK that's pretty weird. I'm sure there are good chiro's out there that will immediately admit when they're out of their depth and send their patients to the proper doctor, but unfortunately there are a lot of straight up quacks out there that abuse the trust that is given to them by the patients. It's a shame that they're given the title of a "doctor".
A shame? When I hear that a medical 'doctor' has sent a patient for test, after test, after test, and prescribed pill, after pill, after pill....only to have the patient NOT get better. I think its a shame they are called a 'doctor'
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If a chiropractor doesn't do anything, how could it take six months to undo the damage they did?
Even still, what kind of damage was done that you had to go through six months of physical therapy to have it undone?
neck adjustments fucked me up
the rehab was really gentle physio
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neck adjustments fucked me up
the rehab was really gentle physio
I mean no disrespect when I ask this...but how did it fuck you up?
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I had a friend who was married to a DC (R.I.P). He had a very successful practice, I think in part because he didn't have any competition. I wouldn't let him touch me with a ten foot pole! They were in another state anyway. I saw a DC for years who had VERY DIFFERENT methods and I thought he was helping me. I thought because he was personable and we had a good rapport and I felt better momentarily that he was doing the right thing. It wasn't until I started seeing a massage therapist and doing corrective exercises that I realized he was just milking my insurance.
Years later, I met a DC again, with very different methods (all of them out of Palmer). I've seen him a few times over the years, but 99.9% of the time, he refers me to a massage therapist and recommends specific exercises. His approach is to help the patient help themselves as much as possible.
My point is that there are good and bad in any profession. Just because someone is educated in a particular field doesn't mean they're any good. Hey ~ someone has to be at the bottom of the class! Professionals need to realize their limitations and check their egos at the door. Just because they have a shingle hanging on their wall doesn't mean squat!
Should this thread be split into 2 topics?
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You're right, it IS bullshit. When someone with medicare comes into my office that needs physical therapy...I have to charge them for that because medicare does not reimburse for that for chiros. PT's..yes. Will the patient get the same care if done by me? Yep. Also, one thing that gives my profession the bad name is the patients who are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. You have a guy come in who is 320lbs with TWO blown discs in his back...and after three treatments tells me that the pain down his leg is not better and that the treatment isnt working. Well, so sorry that my adjustment won't make you lose 100+ lbs so that your spine won't have to bear the brunt of so much excess bodyweight. So sorry that you have had this pain for nearly 3yrs and even though it would come and go, you didn't ever think you needed treatment until that radiating pain is now down to your heel and its keeping you up at night. So sorry that you don't think you should have to pay your co-pays because the care didn't magically get you better like you wanted.
If it weren't for the patients and the staff, I would love what I do!! ;D
Why do you even take a patient on like that when you know full well you won't be able to help them?
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Why do you even take a patient on like that when you know full well you won't be able to help them?
Why? Well, its because I have this warped belief that perhaps something I say, or do will help this guy out. Even if I just give him diet advice, or show him some exercises that will do something to alleviate the pain, or even if I say "its time for you to see an orthopoedic surgeon" that the guy will understand that its 'shit or get off the pot' time.
I don't pull any punches in my 'report' to the patient after their initial exam. If someone is overweight, i tell them that their weight NEEDS to be addressed. I have discharged a patient because they did not follow my recommendations on things. That is so UNCOMMON in my profession. That right there is a sad statement. MD's get rid of patients left and right in those cases.
As far as your one guy milking the fuck out of the insurance. Yep, that happens. Those guys are the ones that have fucked things up for people like me. But, something people DON'T think about is this...how much hospitals rape the insurance companies for. Ever see how much an aspirin costs for a hospital stay? Ask for another cookie with a meal there, guess what? They charge for another meal! I have seen it personally.
How about this:
I took a standard two view lumbar series on a patient. Total bill to the insurance : $95. We were done with treatment a couple months later. Almost one year later he was in a car accident. The ER took the SAME study (most will say bullshit, but a 72100 code is the same for me as the ER...its a 2-view limited study of lumbar spine) and billed out...get this : $600. He showed me his ER bill. Who is milking the insurance company there?
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I predict a lot of bs here...
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=435468.0
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I've never met somebody who actually wanted to be a chiropracter unless other family members were involved.
It seems to me most are just people that couldn't do med or dental school so they ended up choosing chiropractic. In university I knew a shitload of students that turned to chiro because they couldn't get the GPA needed for pharmacy, med or dental.
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A shame? When I hear that a medical 'doctor' has sent a patient for test, after test, after test, and prescribed pill, after pill, after pill....only to have the patient NOT get better. I think its a shame they are called a 'doctor'
[/quote]
Sometimes, I view them as professional drug peddlers. Chasing the symptom cycles with meds, then chasing the side effects of the meds with more meds, and so on.
Just keep on pulling out that pad and writing scripts to chase symptoms and don't give a shit about what the cause is. Instant gratification to the patient and send them on their way.
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Part of the problem is that a lot of people don't take good care of themselves and don't take responsibility for their own health, then expect the doctor to be a miracle worker.
Most people aren't as physically inclined (i.e. enjoy exercise) as the posters on this forum. Only a terrible doctor will see someone with high blood pressure and put them on meds and send them on their way, they might put them on meds but they'll also be like "okay you need to stop getting 10 times the RDA of sodium every day and start exercising more" but most of America is lazy and will fuck off the diet and exercise and expect the pills to solve the problem.
Likewise most people think "diet" is something you do for eight weeks that fixes everything permanently then you go back to your usual disgusting lifestyle.
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Sometimes, I view them as professional drug peddlers. Chasing the symptom cycles with meds, then chasing the side effects of the meds with more meds, and so on.
Just keep on pulling out that pad and writing scripts to chase symptoms and don't give a shit about what the cause is. Instant gratification to the patient and send them on their way.
I mostly agree with this - most general practitioners seem to be walking script dispensaries. But they wont prescribe you things that work, that could be addictive if abused, they'd rather prescribe you whatever new wonder drug that the Pharm companies are peddling that will cause a laundry list of side effects without really treating anything.
Whats hilarious is that they may refuse to prescribe you with something like Vicodin or Percoset due to its addictive qualities, but they'll prescribe you with a drug they know nothing about that will come out later to be 10x as addictive or harmful as the "bad" stuff.
Or they'll try and fix everything with SSRI's that may cause you to go psychotic or suicidal.
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I've never met somebody who actually wanted to be a chiropracter unless other family members were involved.
It seems to me most are just people that couldn't do med or dental school so they ended up choosing chiropractic. In university I knew a shitload of students that turned to chiro because they couldn't get the GPA needed for pharmacy, med or dental.
Couldnt do? How about had no desire to do it because I found something I was passionate about. Wow, the ignorance continues. My GPA in undergrad was 3.68, coming out of chiro was 3.89
Part of the problem is that a lot of people don't take good care of themselves and don't take responsibility for their own health, then expect the doctor to be a miracle worker.
No matter what the doctor....that is the truth has been spoken right there.
I mostly agree with this - most general practitioners seem to be walking script dispensaries. But they wont prescribe you things that work, that could be addictive if abused, they'd rather prescribe you whatever new wonder drug that the Pharm companies are peddling that will cause a laundry list of side effects without really treating anything.
Whats hilarious is that they may refuse to prescribe you with something like Vicodin or Percoset due to its addictive qualities, but they'll prescribe you with a drug they know nothing about that will come out later to be 10x as addictive or harmful as the "bad" stuff.
Or they'll try and fix everything with SSRI's that may cause you to go psychotic or suicidal.
I wish I could remember where I saw it, but there was a report that came out on the kickbacks a doctor got for prescribing one drug over another. Think about the movie "Love and other drugs". From what I am told, thats EXACTLY how it is.
(http://www.middletownpress.com/content/articles/2012/07/29/news/doc5014b9b27e0f0975379616.png)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/6ifsiu.jpg)
Yep, chiropractors sure are not 'real doctors'. Where are my kickbacks like 'real doctors' get??
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;)
(http://misfit120.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/prescription-side-effects-big-pill.gif)
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I wish I could remember where I saw it, but there was a report that came out on the kickbacks a doctor got for prescribing one drug over another. Think about the movie "Love and other drugs". From what I am told, thats EXACTLY how it is.
And guess where doctors get their "education" on pharmacologicals?
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I had a friend who was married to a DC (R.I.P). He had a very successful practice, I think in part because he didn't have any competition. I wouldn't let him touch me with a ten foot pole! They were in another state anyway. I saw a DC for years who had VERY DIFFERENT methods and I thought he was helping me. I thought because he was personable and we had a good rapport and I felt better momentarily that he was doing the right thing. It wasn't until I started seeing a massage therapist and doing corrective exercises that I realized he was just milking my insurance.
Years later, I met a DC again, with very different methods (all of them out of Palmer). I've seen him a few times over the years, but 99.9% of the time, he refers me to a massage therapist and recommends specific exercises. His approach is to help the patient help themselves as much as possible.
My point is that there are good and bad in any profession. Just because someone is educated in a particular field doesn't mean they're any good. Hey ~ someone has to be at the bottom of the class! Professionals need to realize their limitations and check their egos at the door. Just because they have a shingle hanging on their wall doesn't mean squat!
Should this thread be split into 2 topics?
I agree with the last part. Any doctor in the health care field has to undergoe hell to get through school, ill hear anybody out who has done this. There are good and bad people in every field.
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I've never met somebody who actually wanted to be a chiropracter unless other family members were involved.
It seems to me most are just people that couldn't do med or dental school so they ended up choosing chiropractic. In university I knew a shitload of students that turned to chiro because they couldn't get the GPA needed for pharmacy, med or dental.
My current class, or 129 students, which I spend 9 hours in the same room with, 5 days a week, along with road trips to seminars on weekends, extracurricular technique/speciality clubs after class, and socializing with whenever we get a second of free time, has NONE that I know of that have attempted any other program and failed/dropped out. I suppose someone could have hid this dirty secret from me, but we are a tit knit group, anyone who has gone through a rigorous post grad program can attest to the bond you build with your class. It's certainly not common what you are referring to, def not in my class of 129, and I'm in the biggest/most reputable Chiro school in THE WORLD.
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NONE that I know of that have attempted any other program and failed/dropped out.
That's not what she's saying, she's saying her perception is that people go to chiropractic school because they don't have the grades to get into more selective professional schools in medicine.
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Weak backs. ::)
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That's not what she's saying, she's saying her perception is that people go to chiropractic school because they don't have the grades to get into more selective professional schools in medicine.
We had a bunch fail out during the 1st year cuz they couldn't hack the rigorous program. My post still applies, right?
If not, I am a strong man and am ready to fight.
:D
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I know one fella like that. Makes shit up VERY often, and sometimes to a highly rediculous degree, a grown man, and I have no idea why he does that. ALl the "bigger than life" persona, etc.. At the begining I used to get an urge to punch him in the face to get him back to the "reality", but after some time I just don't listen anymore most of the time.. Dude loves to brag and tell stories, real and imagined for anyone who'll listen, and he's VERY serious about that.. Awkward.
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That's not what she's saying, she's saying her perception is that people go to chiropractic school because they don't have the grades to get into more selective professional schools in medicine.
I know what she is saying. Its the same old rhetoric that I have heard for many, many years. The whole "I know a shitload" comment is complete bullshit. A shitload would imply a lot, yes? Also, its not merely the GPA that gets you into the med school. You must have an acceptable MCAT score. Most med students have a 3.5GPA or higher prior to entering MED school. Wait a sec, I had a 3.68 in undergrad. Shit, looks like I missed out on med school not because my GPA was too low, but because I was stupid to realize I had a good enough GPA to get into Med School! ::)
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all jabs aside, i would love to get some of these subluxations out...
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all jabs aside, i would love to get some of these subluxations out...
I'll "adjust" you anyday, stud
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Pointing out the flaws of the medical industry (e.g., the excessive influence of pharmaceutical companies) is a worthy activity, but doing so doesn't thereby vindicate chiropractic. It is entirely possible that both industries have serious flaws. All of the talk here is non-demonstrative until somebody refers to quality research demonstrating the efficacy of chiropractic treatments above and beyond the placebo effect.
Also, those chiros that uphold metaphysical bullshit and anti-scientific concepts like vitalism and innate intelligence make the whole lot of you look absolutely terrible.
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Pointing out the flaws of the medical industry (e.g., the excessive influence of pharmaceutical companies) is a worthy activity, but doing so doesn't thereby vindicate chiropractic. It is entirely possible that both industries have serious flaws. All of the talk here is non-demonstrative until somebody refers to quality research demonstrating the efficacy of chiropractic treatments above and beyond the placebo effect.
Also, those chiros that uphold metaphysical bullshit and anti-scientific concepts like vitalism and innate intelligence make the whole lot of you look absolutely terrible.
There are studies showing benefits of "spinal manipulation" though?
I'm not bashing medicine either, I'm friends with some very good GPs and ortho-surgeons. I think much of what you're mentioning was in response to some in this thread comparing chiropractic to medicine, as if that is the "benchmark/gold standard".
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I'll "adjust" you anyday, stud
Once I get the money, I'm flying out to your "exact location" posthaste.
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Once I get the money, I'm flying out to your "exact location" posthaste.
Lol :D
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Pointing out the flaws of the medical industry (e.g., the excessive influence of pharmaceutical companies) is a worthy activity, but doing so doesn't thereby vindicate chiropractic. It is entirely possible that both industries have serious flaws. All of the talk here is non-demonstrative until somebody refers to quality research demonstrating the efficacy of chiropractic treatments above and beyond the placebo effect.
Also, those chiros that uphold metaphysical bullshit and anti-scientific concepts like vitalism and innate intelligence make the whole lot of you look absolutely terrible.
Innate intelligence simply is what made the body will heal the body. The way I explain it is this. Its your body, it knows what to do. Perfect example of innate is this...what heals a cut on your hand? The bandaid? The anti-bacterial cream? Nope. Nothing. Cut the hand of a corpse, does it heal if a bandaid is thrown on it? Nope. Its that 'life force' we have. That may all seem like voodoo weird bullshit, but stop and think about it. I am not talking about God or religion here, just something that all living creatures have. Once that 'thing' is gone, you are dead.
Whats funny is that its not just Chiros that talk about the efficacy of getting adjusted. Prominent MD's are saying it.
Please define 'quality research'. No matter what study anyone will produce, serious flaws are bound to be found by the opposing party. For example a simple search of 'research efficacy chiropractic' would reveal this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2050630/
Conclusion: The results of this study suggest that Chiropractic SMT is an effective treatment for migraine with aura. However, due to the cyclical nature of migraine with aura, and the finding that episodes usually reduce following any intervention, further research is required. A prospective randomised controlled trial utilising detuned EPT (interferential), a sham manipulation group and an SMT group is nearing conclusion. It is anticipated this trial will provide further information of the efficacy of Chiropractic SMT in the treatment of migraine with aura.
Don't think that I didn't read the following line about any intervention. Point I would make is that so many of my patients with migraines are tired of the meds. Tired of coming into their MD's office, waiting 45 mins, for them to be seen for 10 mins, get a script, then pay their co-pay, then wait in line at the pharmacy, get their meds, then get home. They can simply walk into my office, and be back in a treatment room with me in 10 mins. I have 'urgent' protocols with patients. Meaning, that if someone like that comes in, they generally are seen faster. Not ONE patient has ever abused that.
Lastly, you keep talking about the placebo effect. No matter if you talk chiropractic or allopathic medicine, there is a placebo effect. Anything from anti-depressants, meds for chronic fatigue, arthritis pain, and even cancer have individuals that respond to a placebo. You can not throw chiropractic in there with a negative light and not look at the facts surrounding medications as well.
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I have yet to see that someone adding that former Mr. O Franco Columbu is a Chiro, which thus ends this trivial exchange.
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There are studies showing benefits of "spinal manipulation" though?
I'm not bashing medicine either, I'm friends with some very good GPs and ortho-surgeons. I think much of what you're mentioning was in response to some in this thread comparing chiropractic to medicine, as if that is the "benchmark/gold standard".
You may want to rephrase that ol' buddy. We do practice medicine. Unfortunately, people associate that term only with pills and surgery. Earlier in the thread there is a definition of medicine. Do I think chiropractic can cure stage 4 cancer? Nope. Otherwise my dad would be around today. Do I think it has a tremendous effect on a lot of conditions? Yep.
Chiropractic care and the immune response...there is some interesting stuff out there:
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC2945351//reload=0;jsessionid=UYXw43y0YqqzB7SaYxIl.20
Spinal manipulative treatment does not increase interleukin-2 -dependent polyclonal immunoglobulin synthesis by mitogen-activated B cells. However, antibody synthesis induced by interleukin-2 alone can be, at least temporarily, augmented following spinal manipulation. Thus, under certain physiological conditions spinal manipulative treatment might influence interleukin-2 -regulated biological responses.
So, who knows what else can be affected by the adjustment. Again, DO NOT take from this that I am advocating that the adjustment will replace medications. Medications have their time and place. Just interesting that we haven't scratched the surface on some stuff.
How is not mentioning Franco an ending to this trivial exchange? What has he contributed to my profession? Other than being a 'famous name'...not a whole hell of a lot. Please try again.
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I got to 5 pages in, and it all seemed to be about chiropractors, so if it has steered back to the original conversation of bullshitters, please forgive me. I have used a chiropractor before, and stroked out in the office. Ambulance had to come get me and rush me to the hospital. All of this was from a neck adjustment. Now, I will say that when I was going weekly, it did help my lower back, but once I was going once a month, it didn't help as much. I have 2 blown discs in my lower back btw. Anyway, this dude was a bit of a snake. He was the type that would tell you he could cure cancer with spinal adjustments and what not. Now, I will not pretend that we know everything about medicine, and that holistic healing doesn't work, but I found that hard to believe. Anyway, haven't been since and that was 5 years ago. It was funny, I got a bill for that visit, and called him and told him unless he wanted a problem, he needed to eat that invoice.
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I got to 5 pages in, and it all seemed to be about chiropractors, so if it has steered back to the original conversation of bullshitters, please forgive me. I have used a chiropractor before, and stroked out in the office. Ambulance had to come get me and rush me to the hospital. All of this was from a neck adjustment. Now, I will say that when I was going weekly, it did help my lower back, but once I was going once a month, it didn't help as much. I have 2 blown discs in my lower back btw. Anyway, this dude was a bit of a snake. He was the type that would tell you he could cure cancer with spinal adjustments and what not. Now, I will not pretend that we know everything about medicine, and that holistic healing doesn't work, but I found that hard to believe. Anyway, haven't been since and that was 5 years ago. It was funny, I got a bill for that visit, and called him and told him unless he wanted a problem, he needed to eat that invoice.
Truly sorry for your experience. I really am. I can not speak for that guy, but why suddenly did he want to adjust your neck? The fact he gave you a bill absolutely sickens me. Was the guy daring you to sue him? FFS While not on the same level, one doctor visit I was at the guy wanted to draw some blood. He had the nurse come in and do it. She tried a few times and on the last one it felt funny. As she was drawing the (what seemed like) 500th bottle, I felt my arm get cold, then really warm. I told her to pull the fucking needle out (exact words) she refused saying that she had just a little more to go. I was pissed. Afterwards I couldn't straighten or bend my arm and the next day I had a bruise that extended from my forearm to almost my underarm. I called the guy and said that a slight refund would be in order as I couldn't practice with my arm being immobile. I got the "no my problem" type of thing and all he would do is talk to the nurse. I refused to pay the bill, and six months later a new office manager called me asking about it. I told the story and she wrote off the whole thing. Again, NOT comparing..just saying we go to these people to get helped and end up getting shit on at times.
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My best friends brother is like this. I never heard so many tall tales in one convo. in my life. This guy churns out lies like they are for sale. My friend said just to ignore him, he doesnt know why he does it. LOL
It's a disease.
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Yeah, he told me the bills were automatically generated, and that he would take care of it. I actually have a letter still from my doctor, stating that him and my neurologist both thought it was the direct reult of that adjustment. As for why he adjusted my neck, I think I told him my head was hurting or something. He had done it a few times, and it always scared me. It's crazy though, the anesthesiologist that worked for the heart doctor that did my endoscopy(can't remember if that's what it was called, but they knocked me out and put a camera down my throat to check for a PFO) said her husband was a chiropractor and had heard about my experience. I guess he served on some sort of board and my chiro had to report the ncident to them. I was also telling a chiro in my gym about it (he overheard me talking about it and his radar went off I guess) and he told me that's why he doesn't do above the shoulder manipulations because of that risk. I wouldn't call your profession quackery, there are hacks in every field.
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Yeah, he told me the bills were automatically generated, and that he would take care of it. I actually have a letter still from my doctor, stating that him and my neurologist both thought it was the direct reult of that adjustment. As for why he adjusted my neck, I think I told him my head was hurting or something. He had done it a few times, and it always scared me. It's crazy though, the anesthesiologist that worked for the heart doctor that did my endoscopy(can't remember if that's what it was called, but they knocked me out and put a camera down my throat to check for a PFO) said her husband was a chiropractor and had heard about my experience. I guess he served on some sort of board and my chiro had to report the ncident to them. I was also telling a chiro in my gym about it (he overheard me talking about it and his radar went off I guess) and he told me that's why he doesn't do above the shoulder manipulations because of that risk. I wouldn't call your profession quackery, there are hacks in every field.
That really does suck that you had a negative experience bro, sorry to hear that. And I agree with there being shitty docs in every arena. Chiropractic is a science, philosophy, and ART....some people are just bad adjusters, they are not good at the art of adjustment. Just like some dentists are shitty at what they do.
Regarding the chance of cerebral vascular accident (stroke) via upper cervical adjustments:
I actually stumbled upon this last night while studying some notes...
"clinically, there is an incidence of about 0.0002% (2 cases per 1 million adjustments) of vertebral artery injury. Compare with the risk rate for paralysis following neurosurgery for neck pain which is 1.5% (15,000 patients per 1 million surgeries. Although commonly, chiropractors are the ones performing upper cervical manipulation, careful review of the literature involving vertebral artery injury reveals the groups involved in the study include: medical practitioners, medical specialists, osteopaths, physiotherapists, naturopaths, a kung fu practitioner, a blind masseur (lol), a barber from India,....". (pm me for works cited)
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I have yet to see that someone adding that former Mr. O Franco Columbu is a Chiro, which thus ends this trivial exchange.
Damn, I shoulda mentioned that! Nice work :D
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You may want to rephrase that ol' buddy. We do practice medicine. Unfortunately, people associate that term only with pills and surgery. Earlier in the thread there is a definition of medicine. Do I think chiropractic can cure stage 4 cancer? Nope. Otherwise my dad would be around today. Do I think it has a tremendous effect on a lot of conditions? Yep.
Chiropractic care and the immune response...there is some interesting stuff out there:
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC2945351//reload=0;jsessionid=UYXw43y0YqqzB7SaYxIl.20
Spinal manipulative treatment does not increase interleukin-2 -dependent polyclonal immunoglobulin synthesis by mitogen-activated B cells. However, antibody synthesis induced by interleukin-2 alone can be, at least temporarily, augmented following spinal manipulation. Thus, under certain physiological conditions spinal manipulative treatment might influence interleukin-2 -regulated biological responses.
So, who knows what else can be affected by the adjustment. Again, DO NOT take from this that I am advocating that the adjustment will replace medications. Medications have their time and place. Just interesting that we haven't scratched the surface on some stuff.
How is not mentioning Franco an ending to this trivial exchange? What has he contributed to my profession? Other than being a 'famous name'...not a whole hell of a lot. Please try again.
You're right you're right, I misspoke. 4 exams in 3 days is making me dumber I think
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I got to 5 pages in, and it all seemed to be about chiropractors, so if it has steered back to the original conversation of bullshitters, please forgive me. I have used a chiropractor before, and stroked out in the office. Ambulance had to come get me and rush me to the hospital. All of this was from a neck adjustment. Now, I will say that when I was going weekly, it did help my lower back, but once I was going once a month, it didn't help as much. I have 2 blown discs in my lower back btw. Anyway, this dude was a bit of a snake. He was the type that would tell you he could cure cancer with spinal adjustments and what not. Now, I will not pretend that we know everything about medicine, and that holistic healing doesn't work, but I found that hard to believe. Anyway, haven't been since and that was 5 years ago. It was funny, I got a bill for that visit, and called him and told him unless he wanted a problem, he needed to eat that invoice.
That is bullshit regarding your bill, obviously a doctor who doesn't give a shit about people. Should have thrown fisticuffs with this clown
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Innate intelligence simply is what made the body will heal the body. The way I explain it is this. Its your body, it knows what to do. Perfect example of innate is this...what heals a cut on your hand? The bandaid? The anti-bacterial cream? Nope. Nothing. Cut the hand of a corpse, does it heal if a bandaid is thrown on it? Nope. Its that 'life force' we have. That may all seem like voodoo weird bullshit, but stop and think about it. I am not talking about God or religion here, just something that all living creatures have. Once that 'thing' is gone, you are dead.
It's a new-wavy term for a normal functioning body.
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I'll "adjust" you anyday, stud
Outed
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I mean no disrespect when I ask this...but how did it fuck you up?
he was doing what i would call violent adjustments on me trying to crack everything
i could hardly walk after a few treatments and was getting headaches
he said i would get worse before i got better but i couldnt take it anymore went to a physio who identified alot of misaligment issues and damage
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I know what she is saying. Its the same old rhetoric that I have heard for many, many years. The whole "I know a shitload" comment is complete bullshit. A shitload would imply a lot, yes? Also, its not merely the GPA that gets you into the med school. You must have an acceptable MCAT score. Most med students have a 3.5GPA or higher prior to entering MED school. Wait a sec, I had a 3.68 in undergrad. Shit, looks like I missed out on med school not because my GPA was too low, but because I was stupid to realize I had a good enough GPA to get into Med School! ::)
That's great that you had an above average GPA but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that entrance criteria are a lot tougher for medical school than they are for chiropractic school, which was "her" (I'm not actually sure BikiniSlut is a woman) original point. The MCAT is not even taken for chiro school so I'm not sure how that is relevant.
You are both very defensive about even the smallest criticism leveled at chiropractic. The problems with the field are real and valid and are not just a function of the mean old M.D. establishment picking on it unfairly, and would be better addressed by acknowledging them rather than digging in your heels and shouting about how everybody else is wrong and doesn't understand with your ears covered.
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Chiropractors..... gayer than massage "therapists". ::)
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That's great that you had an above average GPA but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that entrance criteria are a lot tougher for medical school than they are for chiropractic school, which was "her" (I'm not actually sure BikiniSlut is a woman) original point. The MCAT is not even taken for chiro school so I'm not sure how that is relevant.
You are both very defensive about even the smallest criticism leveled at chiropractic. The problems with the field are real and valid and are not just a function of the mean old M.D. establishment picking on it unfairly, and would be better addressed by acknowledging them rather than digging in your heels and shouting about how everybody else is wrong and doesn't understand with your ears covered.
I'm not "defensive", I didn't feel Krank was either? It's our field, we are offering our opinions cuz there is a lot of misinformation floating around, such as the example I provided of 2 cases/1million. I felt this was a good, positive, informative exchange of opinions?
You seem like an intelligent cat, I'm sure you're very good at what it is you do professionally. I'm sure if you saw others talking about your profession and you felt you could weigh in to better explain what it is you do, you would. Feel me?
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Chiropractors..... gayer than massage "therapists". ::)
What's your occupation, skipper?
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It's a new-wavy term for a normal functioning body.
Please try again.
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One of my good friends went to a chiropracter for years because of back/spine problems. She even worked a second job 15 hours a week cooking in a Zellers restaurant to pay for the treatments. She loved the guy and his treatment made her feel better.
Her family doctor told her to stop immediately as he was not curing the problem at all. He referred her to a physiotherapist....I'm not sure how long for...but within 6 months the problem was completely gone and she never needed treatment again. Her family doctor asked her if she was considering legal action which shocked the shit out of her....but he told her he was convinced the chiropracter knew exactly what was wrong but instead of fixing it knew how to keep the bucks rolling in.
Obviously not all chiropracters are like this but I don't hear stories like this about massage therapists or homeopaths.
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Yeah, he told me the bills were automatically generated, and that he would take care of it. I actually have a letter still from my doctor, stating that him and my neurologist both thought it was the direct reult of that adjustment. As for why he adjusted my neck, I think I told him my head was hurting or something. He had done it a few times, and it always scared me. It's crazy though, the anesthesiologist that worked for the heart doctor that did my endoscopy(can't remember if that's what it was called, but they knocked me out and put a camera down my throat to check for a PFO) said her husband was a chiropractor and had heard about my experience. I guess he served on some sort of board and my chiro had to report the ncident to them. I was also telling a chiro in my gym about it (he overheard me talking about it and his radar went off I guess) and he told me that's why he doesn't do above the shoulder manipulations because of that risk. I wouldn't call your profession quackery, there are hacks in every field.
EVERY patient I adjust in the cervical region gets what is called a George's Test fairly regularly. I also no use the amount lateral flexion and rotation that a lot of guys use. That (in my opinion) leads to too much stretching of that vertebral artery. I had one guy that adjusted my neck one direction and I stopped him from 'doing the other side'. I got up and asked him how much of a running start he took to when he did that. Fucker was offended. I told the guy (who had been practicing for 30yrs) that I was good and that all he needed to do was do the low back adjustment I asked for and be done with it.
You are right, the guy who fucked you up SHOULD have reported it and SHOULD have kissed your ass when it came to any bill or anything. I will say this, the only thing I have ever done was this. A 65yo woman came to me adn started treating. I was only doing low back adjustments and she then said her old chiro used to do the mid back as well. I did take some films (thankfully as I saw two segments fused and the obvious appearance of osteoporosis) and told her I would use an adjusting tool if she wanted me to work on the mid back. She declined and said that the guy adjusted her with his hands for MANY years and she would be fine. Against my better judgement I gave a slight push on the area above the fusion. Sure enough, I heard the pop. There went a rib. I felt like shit for a week. Never again, do I let myself get talked into something like that again. Before anyone criticizes me for that, I have heard of WAY more ribs being broken during MMA training as well as during personal training on the leg press.
Re: the legal action on the chiro above. Good luck proving the guy knew what was wrong and didn't address it. Its funny though, your story also is a great example of something. An MD TELLING a patient to stop going to the chiropractor. You are not allowed to tell a patient to stop doing anything unless you yourself are directly involved in that care. Its called malpractice. Practicing out of your scope. I can not tell a patient to stop taking medication. I can advice them of the risks and present them with information. But in ALL CASES I tell them to discuss it with their MD. While I do not agree with treating someone for years for a problem, I do hold the patient responsible if they let it go on. I also will say that just because chiropractic didn't help her (say she only went six months to the chiro and not years) doesn't mean that a physiotherapist (dont you mean physical therapist?) is any better than a chiro. Here is my philosophy : chiropractic can benefit everyone, but not everyone will benefit from chiropractic care.
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What's your occupation, skipper?
Professional mom doer. 8)
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Chaos typically gets to jephrius's fat sow of a mother before I can get my "foot in the door" and she's usually pretty worn out.
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EVERY patient I adjust in the cervical region gets what is called a George's Test fairly regularly. I also no use the amount lateral flexion and rotation that a lot of guys use. That (in my opinion) leads to too much stretching of that vertebral artery. I had one guy that adjusted my neck one direction and I stopped him from 'doing the other side'. I got up and asked him how much of a running start he took to when he did that. Fucker was offended. I told the guy (who had been practicing for 30yrs) that I was good and that all he needed to do was do the low back adjustment I asked for and be done with it.
You are right, the guy who fucked you up SHOULD have reported it and SHOULD have kissed your ass when it came to any bill or anything. I will say this, the only thing I have ever done was this. A 65yo woman came to me adn started treating. I was only doing low back adjustments and she then said her old chiro used to do the mid back as well. I did take some films (thankfully as I saw two segments fused and the obvious appearance of osteoporosis) and told her I would use an adjusting tool if she wanted me to work on the mid back. She declined and said that the guy adjusted her with his hands for MANY years and she would be fine. Against my better judgement I gave a slight push on the area above the fusion. Sure enough, I heard the pop. There went a rib. I felt like shit for a week. Never again, do I let myself get talked into something like that again. Before anyone criticizes me for that, I have heard of WAY more ribs being broken during MMA training as well as during personal training on the leg press.
Re: the legal action on the chiro above. Good luck proving the guy knew what was wrong and didn't address it. Its funny though, your story also is a great example of something. An MD TELLING a patient to stop going to the chiropractor. You are not allowed to tell a patient to stop doing anything unless you yourself are directly involved in that care. Its called malpractice. Practicing out of your scope. I can not tell a patient to stop taking medication. I can advice them of the risks and present them with information. But in ALL CASES I tell them to discuss it with their MD. While I do not agree with treating someone for years for a problem, I do hold the patient responsible if they let it go on. I also will say that just because chiropractic didn't help her (say she only went six months to the chiro and not years) doesn't mean that a physiotherapist (dont you mean physical therapist?) is any better than a chiro.
You broke someone's rib, I'm surprised you didn't get hit with lawsuit.
Here is my philosophy : chiropractic can benefit everyone, but not everyone will benefit from chiropractic care.
This sounds like paradoxical thinking, it won't get you far. Don't repeat it in front of others.
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You broke someone's rib, I'm surprised you didn't get hit with lawsuit.
This sounds like paradoxical thinking, it won't get you far. Don't repeat it in front of others.
Then be surprised. When a Doctor prescribes something that has a bad side effect, not everyone sues. Deal with it.
I said it in a deposition and explained it rather well, thanks. Before you start drumming up stories about why I was in a deposition, it was for a personal injury case. I actually was complimented by the plaintiffs side for how well my notes were and how the bill was by far one of the most reasonable she had seen. Listen, just because ChiroFlex wont return your calls after that night of passion, doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.
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Then be surprised. When a Doctor prescribes something that has a bad side effect, not everyone sues. Deal with it.
I said it in a deposition and explained it rather well, thanks. Before you start drumming up stories about why I was in a deposition, it was for a personal injury case. I actually was complimented by the plaintiffs side for how well my notes were and how the bill was by far one of the most reasonable she had seen. Listen, just because ChiroFlex wont return your calls after that night of passion, doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.
So you were taken to court after all?
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Listen, just because ChiroFlex wont return your calls after that night of passion, doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.
It's true, he won't return my calls and I can't get over his hairless bubblebutt. Perhaps I was too "forceful" with him, but it was all in the heat of the moment.
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Is suckymuscle listed as a bullshitter in this thread?
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Is suckymuscle listed as a bullshitter in this thread?
No, and neither were you. Another list you won't make. ;D
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So you were taken to court after all?
Sorry, should have clarified. Personal Injury case = motor vehicle accident.
In 13yrs, the rib incident is the ONLY thing I have done that I regret.
- I have discharged three people for malingering that other docs would have continued treating because the pay day would have been good for them.
- I have discounted/given away more of my services than I care to think about because people needed the care but financially were not able to. - I have come in on my off time to treat someone because they needed the care. I did not bill for off hours treatment (which I am entitled to do). Even when I see someone twice in a day, I do not bill for the extra time they are in the office (again, something I am entitled to do)
- I have done more fund raising events at my office than the dentist and eye doctor next to me combined.
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No, and neither were you. Another list you won't make. ;D
Ok not making this list ;D
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It's true, he won't return my calls and I can't get over his hairless bubblebutt. Perhaps I was too "forceful" with him, but it was all in the heat of the moment.
My glutes are developed indeed. I appreciate you taking notice, champ. :-*
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You broke someone's rib, I'm surprised you didn't get hit with lawsuit.
Reread the thread. Chiropractic is not anywhere CLOSE to being at the top of the lift of most sued doctors. Ask ANY doctor...lawsuits happen and are common in the health care profession.
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My glutes are developed indeed. I appreciate you taking notice, champ. :-*
That's just swelling, would go away if you'd stop bending over for random guys from the internet. :-\
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That's just swelling, would go away if you'd stop bending over for random guys from the internet. :-\
chaos, are you saying he overdid it on the receiving end of some squat-thrusts?
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That's just swelling, would go away if you'd stop bending over for random guys from the internet. :-\
You know a lot about butt sex. However, I don't think you can really be relevant in a discussion like this, bud.
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chaos, are you saying he overdid it on the receiving end of some squat-thrusts?
He took the 10x10 program a little too far when he thought it meant 10 men with 10"
:-X
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You know a lot about butt sex. However, I don't think you can really be relevant in a discussion like this, bud.
::)
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He took the 10x10 program a little too far when he thought it meant 10 men with 10"
:-X
lmao
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That's just swelling, would go away if you'd stop bending over for random guys from the internet. :-\
Truth. ;D (joke there) :P
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I
The scientific method applies to us all, no matter if we like or not. It's not just "a different way" of looking at things, it's straight up the best method we have currently have to find out how nature and the universe works. It's not something you dismiss as just "another" philosophy. Either you are interested in coming closer and closer to the truth, or you ain't.
The fact that our average lifespan is well above 50 years and we all have reasonable dental health(major killer for cave men), have vaccines, antibiotics, preventive care etcetc is ALL due to modern evidence based medicine. ALL. OF. IT. Just roughly 150-200 years ago the best treatment "doctors" had to offer was bloodletting, which really should tell you something. What has happened since then? Modern evidence-based medicine.
It's not perfect by any means but we are consistently getting better at it and it's by far the best we've got. Put chiropractics up the same standard and see how it holds up.
This is basically all there is to it. Krankenstein and Chiro Flex said there was science supporting chiropractics, I've looked for it but found nothing (no surprise). Where is it guys?
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I've never met somebody who actually wanted to be a chiropracter unless other family members were involved.
It seems to me most are just people that couldn't do med or dental school so they ended up choosing chiropractic. In university I knew a shitload of students that turned to chiro because they couldn't get the GPA needed for pharmacy, med or dental.
Yep...
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This is basically all there is to it. Krankenstein and Chiro Flex said there was science supporting chiropractics, I've looked for it but found nothing (no surprise). Where is it guys?
There's already been several studies cited in this thread.
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Truth. ;D (joke there) :P
You stop flirting with me before we end up in an online romance.
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There's already been several studies cited in this thread.
Haven't seen any?
Also, I've checked Pubmed, haven't found anything supporting chiro.
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This is basically all there is to it. Krankenstein and Chiro Flex said there was science supporting chiropractics, I've looked for it but found nothing (no surprise). Where is it guys?
For someone with Masters degrees you really can't expect me to believe you can't manage to type "research chiropractic care" into Google? Where were you looking?
http://www.acatoday.org/level3_css.cfm?T1ID=13&T2ID=61&T3ID=150
http://icpa4kids.org/Chiropractic-Research/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20184717
http://www.uschirodirectory.com/index.php/research-chiropractic-conditions-a-care
Wow, that took me all of 7 minutes. No surprise is that you will continue to think the way you do despite all that has been said and show to you. You have no desire to even explore, read, and respond in such a way that would indicate an intelligent and well thought out counterpoint other than "I am only repeating what orthopoedic surgeons I know say". Duhhhhhhhhh
Truth be told, you have yet to show me any indication you have even one masters degree, let alone three. So, until then you will be further associated with the main subject of this thread "Bullshitter".
With that in mind, my discussion/debate with you is concluded. Say what you will form this point forth, you will hear little to nothing from me as a response. I know what I do helps many people. Can you say the same for whatever it is that you do? Then again, with so many 'degrees' you have, it would appear you are one of those life time students. Someone who is too scared to try and make a career out of what they already know.
Haven't seen any?
Also, I've checked Pubmed, haven't found anything supporting chiro.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/10opohh.jpg)
Moen...multiple Masters Degrees and can't manage to utilize PubMed correctly. Hmm...first article on Chiro...and supportive of care. It really is getting old making you look like a fool.
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Haven't seen any?
Also, I've checked Pubmed, haven't found anything supporting chiro.
You can find plenty of studies supporting it, although they are mostly in small chiropractic journals (i.e. written and reviewed by chiropractors) and most of them are not fantastic science (the only one that I have seen posted in this thread had no control group and had almost half the subjects excluded or drop out for some reason). Won't find much in the most prominent medical/biology journals, e.g. Science, Nature, The Lancet, The New England Journal of Medicine, PNAS.
You can also find plenty of studies that don't support it or conclude that it has no special benefit over mainstream treatments, for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22341795
"There is currently a lack of low bias evidence to support the use of (spinal manipulative therapy) as a therapy for the treatment of hypertension."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21511952
"Current evidence does not support the use of spinal manipulations for the treatment for migraine headaches."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21328304
"High quality evidence suggests that there is no clinically relevant difference between (spinal manipulative therapy) and other interventions for reducing pain and improving function in patients with chronic low-back pain."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18280103
"With the possible exception of back pain, chiropractic spinal manipulation has not been shown to be effective for any medical condition."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22522273
"Adverse effects are poorly reported in recent (randomized clinical trials) of chiropractic manipulations."
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Moen hasn't studied Medicine, why would he have used PubMED ???
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And LOL Krankenstein, all of your "science" comes from Chiro Journals. Got anything NOT done by Chiros themselves?
Keep laughing at my 3 (real) university Masters all day long man, you're basically proving why you didn't go to a real university with every post you make. And I'm probably not the only one noticing that ;)
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Oh and by the way, in a real university, using Google is a major no no ;)
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And LOL Krankenstein, all of your "science" comes from Chiro Journals. Got anything NOT done by Chiros themselves?
Keep laughing at my 3 (real) university Masters all day long man, you're basically proving why you didn't go to a real university with every post you make. And I'm probably not the only one noticing that ;)
Moen, no disrespect, but are you a career student? And who pays for all of this? And why not get a Phd in a field. And, over here in the US, you can't do anything with a Masters in Philosophy...
Is it just a ego thing, "I have three Masters"?
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And LOL Krankenstein, all of your "science" comes from Chiro Journals. Got anything NOT done by Chiros themselves?
It's not realistic to expect chiropractic research to be done by non-chiros (it wouldn't be "chiropractic research" then), but the acceptance of the field by the medical community at large is always going to be limited at best if the research (i) isn't presented to or reviewed by the community at large and (ii) doesn't conform to the standard rigors of high-quality science.
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Moen : Career Student, with no real world experience. Massive GetBig bullshitter with supposed quantity of Degrees.
Enjoy the evening, son. I was actually interviewed today by a local newspaper because of a letter to the paper about how I helped a patient. What did you do today? Sign up for your 4th masters degree classes?
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I lifted weights. Does that count?
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I lifted weights. Does that count?
Yes, sweetheart.
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Yes, sweetheart.
While you rubbed old mens backs, I was lifting heavy shit. :D
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It's not realistic to expect chiropractic research to be done by non-chiros (it wouldn't be "chiropractic research" then), but the acceptance of the field by the medical community at large is always going to be limited at best if the research (i) isn't presented to or reviewed by the community at large and (ii) doesn't conform to the standard rigors of high-quality science.
I think this is a very good post. And I agree. And from a students perspective, I am witnessing a huge shift in culture to a more evidence based model. The biggest issue is quanitifing all of our findings/results. Chiropractic helps a lot of people in a tremendous way. Since our primary goal is to influence the nervous system, we see, sometimes accidentally, extensive benefits that may not have even been the primary goal of alleviating pain and returning proper motion to fixatated joints.
Ex: today I saw a case of BP dropping 8% after an upper cervical adjustment. The patient has held the new lowered systolic BP for several weeks since his first adjustment.
Also saw a patient who received a full spineadjustment. His resting blood glucose levels dropped 200 points over his course of treatment with NO change in dietary or exercise habits.
Also saw a patient a few months ago who came in congested, with flu like symptoms. After the first adjustment, sinuses instantly opened up in a matter of seconds and literally had snot pouring out if their nose (gross), within a day their sinus infection was almost completely gone.
Also, add about a thousand migraine/otitis media cases I've seen first hand get resolved with spectacular results.
DC's see this stuff all the time, we aren't surprised by it. The researchers in our corner are finally starting to pick up the pace and put more time/money into showing this stuff and getting cases published. It hasn't been a priority, which the are trying to improve currently.
I've been the biggest skeptic of them all, I've pissed off a lot of teachers with some tough questions. At the end of the day, this works though. And people are getting better. I've spent countless hours following other successful (good) docs in the field and seeing this stuff on a daily basis. It would take more of a leap for me to doubt this than to believe in its efficacy. I've simply seen too much real world results in favor of it.
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While you rubbed old mens backs, I was lifting heavy shit. :D
Good boy!!!
(scratches Chaos behind the ears and pats his head)
:D
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You stop flirting with me before we end up in an online romance.
It's those big manly arms of yours to blame. ;D
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Good boy!!!
(scratches Chaos behind the ears and pats his head)
:D
That's it? :-\
Don't fucking PM me begging for attention anymore, we're through! >:(
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Moen, no disrespect, but are you a career student? And who pays for all of this? And why not get a Phd in a field. And, over here in the US, you can't do anything with a Masters in Philosophy...
Is it just a ego thing, "I have three Masters"?
I'm in Belgium. But 3 Masters is idd completely redundant, you only use one most of the time. I do plan on going into politics (which requires no degree) but I could use every one of them there (Communication Sciences, Sociology and Philosophy). My parents pay for everything and I'm also on a scholarship.
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That's it? :-\
Don't fucking PM me begging for attention anymore, we're through! >:(
Lol you know you're my favorite here bro
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lots of ghfourteen board type ass kissing going in these days
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It's those big manly arms of yours to blame. ;D
I just had a medium sized amount of blood rush into my penis.
Does this mean we're "official"?
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I just had a medium sized amount of blood rush into my penis.
Does this mean we're "official"?
No that doesn't count. 8)
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24600892.jpg)
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24600892.jpg)
Does apply85 know that you have his childhood pic? ;D
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Perfect example of innate is this...what heals a cut on your hand? The bandaid? The anti-bacterial cream? Nope. Nothing. Cut the hand of a corpse, does it heal if a bandaid is thrown on it? Nope. Its that 'life force' we have. That may all seem like voodoo weird bullshit, but stop and think about it. I am not talking about God or religion here, just something that all living creatures have. Once that 'thing' is gone, you are dead.
Your words only reinforce my point, which is that certain aspects of chiropractic amount to metaphysically extravagant doctrines with no basis in science. The tandem of functional and molecular biology is more than sufficient for explaining the mechanisms that produce anything and everything the body does, from its ability to self repair to its possessing the simple property of 'being alive'. No magical life force need be posited; in fact, to do is bad philosophy, let alone bad science. This sort of high school-level philosophizing is a major liability for your craft.
Prominent MD's are saying it.
Many more prominent MD's are saying it is not. Therefore, whether your claim is an appeal to popularity or to authority, it doesn't work. It seems to me that we shouldn't rely on either of these methods to assess chiropractic's efficacy anyway.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2050630/
You already pointed out why this study does nothing to demonstrate that SMT in particular is effective in treating migraines: literally any treatment usually succeeds in reducing migraine frequency. In addition, the study is uncontrolled, meaning it does nothing to account for the placebo effect.
Why are you posting research that does nothing to advance your argument?
Lastly, you keep talking about the placebo effect. No matter if you talk chiropractic or allopathic medicine, there is a placebo effect. Anything from anti-depressants, meds for chronic fatigue, arthritis pain, and even cancer have individuals that respond to a placebo. You can not throw chiropractic in there with a negative light and not look at the facts surrounding medications as well.
Again, fixing upon specific features of the medical industry does nothing to vindicate chiropractic. Imagine a possible world where the medical industry's treatments are complete crap. You would be able to point this out all you like and it would do precisely nothing to demonstrate the efficacy of chiropractic. Only positive research can do that.
Finally, while the placebo effect is certainly real in a variety of treatments -- including in those embraced by the medical industry -- the difference here is that there is plenty of medical research that accounts for it and demonstrates the efficacy of a given treatment above and beyond it. Think of drug trials that consistently evince A amount of improvement in symptoms in X% of patients in treatment groups versus only Y% in control groups (those taking sugar pills). I've seen nothing similar when it comes to demonstrating the efficacy of specific chiropractic treatments, and nothing that parses the effects of chiropractic treatments versus other variables like the so-called 'power of touch'.
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"Why are you posting research that does nothing to advance your argument?"
That's a no-brainer syntaxmachine :D
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Your words only reinforce my point, which is that certain aspects of chiropractic amount to metaphysically extravagant doctrines with no basis in science. The tandem of functional and molecular biology is more than sufficient for explaining the mechanisms that produce anything and everything the body does, from its ability to self repair to its possessing the simple property of 'being alive'. No magical life force need be posited; in fact, to do is bad philosophy, let alone bad science. This sort of high school-level philosophizing is a major liability for your craft.
I couldn't agree more that they are the ones in my profession that have created a 'mystique' about what they do, almost to the point where it would not surprise me that they claim they were 'given this gift of healing by god'. The offices I have seen where I am half expecting a crystal ball and incense to be burning. There are two basic scientific theories with chiropractic, the "biomechanics hypothesis," and the "nerve compression hypothesis." Will there ever be a 100% irrefutable study either pro or con for chiropractic. Nope. As we all know, someone will find a flaw with something that was done in the study no matter what. I would hope you can agree with me on this one.
All I ask is for you to explain this to me. What is it that separates a living creature, from a dead one? What does the live one possess that the dead one does not. Using my example of the cut, what allows the cut to be healed in the live creature, and not the dead one? What would you consider that force/ability/etc? You say that the tandem of functional and molecular biology is more than sufficient? I would enjoy reading an expanded explanation on this seeing as you appear to have all the necessary knowledge to do so. It would interesting to relay that explanation to my patients then rather than come across as being so 'metaphysical' as you claim I am.
I pointed out a study showing that there is efficacy to what I do. Was a simple search that took seconds. Are there others? Yes. Do I want to continue to sit here and pull study after study out? Nope. Are there contradictory studies to Chiropractic care? Yes. Bottom line: Do I care? Not too much anymore. I get pulled into these kinds of things because I am passionate about what I do. I never claim to heal someone. I say that what I do helps people, that's all. The mere fact that my profession is becoming more and more accepted on a daily basis is enough to encourage me to keep doing what I am doing. I won't be able to help everyone. No one profession can claim that. Yet, people like Moener-boy likes to keep chiming in with this rhetoric, but has yet to provide anything else to the discussion other than "I am only relaying what I am told by this group of people". I at least respect what you have to say because you actually form intelligent and educated responses.
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Couple of over explanation, self defensive, meltdowny kinda posters in this thread.
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Couple of over explanation, self defensive, meltdowny kinda posters in this thread.
State your occupation and your location and the hours when you are usually home. Also, the last 4 of your social. Thanks.