Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: The True Adonis on February 03, 2015, 09:12:27 AM
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Marc Perry Lean Body Mass Formula
The formula is:
(Your Height in Inches -70) x 5 + 160 = Maximum LBM
A chart based on Marc Perry's formula:
Marc Perry's Formula
Maximum Lean Body Mass Prediction
Height Max LBM (Weight - Body Fat)
5'4" 130 pounds
5'5" 135 pounds
5'6" 140 pounds
5'7" 145 pounds
5'8" 150 pounds
5'9" 155 pounds
5'10" 160 pounds
5'11" 165 pounds
6'0" 170 pounds
6'1" 175 pounds
6'2" 180 pound
Martin Berkham/Lean Gains Lean Body Mass Formula
The formula is:
(Height in centimeters – 100) = Max Body Weight in Kg When @ 5-6% Body Fat
A chart based on Martin Berkham's formula:
Martin Berkham's Formula
Max Lean Body Mass @ 5-6% Body Fat
Height Max Weight Max LBM
5'5" 143 pounds 135 pounds
5'6" 149 pounds 140 pounds
5'7" 154 pounds 145 pounds
5'8" 160 pounds 150 pounds
5'9" 166 pounds 156 pounds
5'10" 171 pounds 161 pounds
5'11" 177 pounds 166 pounds
6'0" 182 pounds 171 pounds
6'1" 188 pounds 177 pounds
6'2" 194 pounds 182 pounds
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Sorry man, know a guy in high level natty, (lifetime) and surpasses those charts by a mile. But he is not the norm. For most.. The chart is kinda accurate.
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Sorry man, know a guy in high level natty, (lifetime) and surpasses those charts by a mile. But he is not the norm. For most.. The chart is kinda accurate.
Pics and evidence please.
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Pics and evidence please.
that is like saying where is the evidence to support your claims. So you refuse to believe it's possible for somoene with superior genetics to surpass your chart?
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Seems about right to be honest..At least for me
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Pics and evidence please.
I posted the guy once and everyone was screaming gear... Totally no point in doing so.
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that is like saying where is the evidence to support your claims. So you refuse to believe it's possible for somoene with superior genetics to surpass your chart?
No, the hastily thrown together chart with meaningless numbers is his "evidence". You must now produce photographs and other notarized documentation to refute the sheer heft of that.
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I think that chart is more an avg.
I know plenty of lean, ripped looking dues who exceed that chart and play other sports .
As a high school sprinter, I didn't lift and was a lean 178lbs at 5'9".
there's a difference in being "lean" and being at 5% bodyfat
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Most models Ive seen put a 5'9 guy around 180-190lbs max bodyweight at 8-10% so 170 or so would seem somewhere in the realm at a true 5%. Most people probably see a guy at 8% and think he is 5%. I don't see any reason why a person with a real high natural test level and years of training couldn't surpass this though.
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Totally 100% natural is food only, no supps!
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Is LBM calculated estimating 0% BF?
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Bullshit. This doesn't account for differences between the races. Hebrews on average are going to carry more muscle and less bodyfat. Other races will be different also, on average. Also, when you consider all the race mixing, between everyone, it's going to be very difficult to come up with numbers like that and expect them to be accurate.
It's no different than the BMI chart. That is also bullshit.
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Bullshit. This doesn't account for differences between the races.
If it's an average from a variety of different races it does.
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If it's an average from a variety of different races it does.
Is it?
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true, but I was age 16-17 and didn't lift or know what a steroid was then, so wtf.
I'm no freak but competed in drug tested shows at 5% fat and around 193 lbs at 5' 9 1/2"
That goofy chart says I max at 155-160 lbs LOL.
I couldn't get that light unless I starved myself for weeks and chopped my leg off LOL
Does anyone here really think a genetic freak like 5"11" Ronnie Coleman needed drugs to be
heavier then 165-170 lbs with 5% body fat.
This kind of chart reminds me of those goofy positive self esteem ht/wt /frame charts for chunky girls.
To be fair, you may have competed in a drug tested show, but you were not drug free. At least according to your stories you posted.
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To be fair, you may have competed in a drug tested show, but you were not drug free. At least according to your stories you posted.
Do you run any gh with your cycles?
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Bullshit list ;)
Eat Heavy - Lift HEAVY
Repeat for years and years - then dial back = muscles .
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Is it?
I used to train BJJ with this guy. He, now, fights MMA at 185. At 6'3" I had about an inch of height on him.
(http://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/Uk55ls_W03kTuUbtRXjfag/ls.jpg)
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I used to train BJJ with this guy. He, now, fights MMA at 185. At 6'3" I had about an inch of height on him.
(http://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/Uk55ls_W03kTuUbtRXjfag/ls.jpg)
Come on man. You're using one guy to prove an argument? That chart is BS. It should be common sense that you can't make a chart like this and expect it to be accurate. There are too many differences between humans, we don't all fit nicely in a chart.
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Come on man. You're using one guy to prove an argument? That chart is BS. It should be common sense that you can't make a chart like this and expect it to be accurate. There are too many differences between humans, we don't all fit nicely in a chart.
Jon Jones is 6'4" and is soft at 205. The truth is most 6'2 athletic guys are lean at 185.
(http://rightreason.typepad.com/.a/6a01774476d922970d01a73db9c30f970d-pi)
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i guess according to that list evander holyfield could never have fought as a heavyweight
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What's happened to Martin Berkhan? Never hear much from him anymore.
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i guess according to that list evander holyfield could never have fought as a heavyweight
Not without "help."
He started as a 175lb light heavyweight.
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Not without "help."
He started as a 175lb light heavyweight.
i guess according to that list chuck liddell could never have fought at 205.
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If it's an average from a variety of different races it does.
Totally correct Grape.
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i guess according to that list chuck liddell could never have fought at 205.
That look like a lean midsection to you?
Guys here just can't accept how light they would be truly lean and natty.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/UFCfan_photos/chuck-liddell-pictures-8.jpg) (http://s246.photobucket.com/user/UFCfan_photos/media/chuck-liddell-pictures-8.jpg.html)
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getting very lean is hard when you are natty.... At 5'8, I can say those charts are about right.... Getting from 8 to 5-6% is where you lose a lot of muscle and it is kind of discouraging....
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Bullshit list ;)
Eat Heavy - Lift HEAVY
Repeat for years and years - then dial back = muscles .
I did that and it really did not make much of a difference. Sure I was able to throw around big weights (not that good compared to my bodyweight). When dieted down, not much, was gained. Certainly no more had I stayed lean and not intentionally force fed myself.
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I did that and it really did not make much of a difference. Sure I was able to throw around big weights (not that good compared to my bodyweight). When dieted down, not much, was gained. Certainly no more had I stayed lean and not intentionally force fed myself.
But if you did nothing at all - where would you be?
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That look like a lean midsection to you?
max weight 194, lean was 182.
but yeah, chuck looks pretty lean here, and thats on fight day even a day after weigh-inns. you reckon he is 30 pounds or more from being lean here?
(http://sheamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Chuck-Liddell21.jpg)
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Exactly!
I don't dispute that the chart is a good indicator of AVERAGE lean mass vs height at low body fat
But c'mon, this is no different than: height, IQ, speed, reaction time, longevity, etc.
For example, the avg ht of the NBA player would be quite different then the general population.
Strength and muscle mass can be enhanced by drugs but GENETICS is what separates the IFBB pros from Mr Podunk.
This
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Exactly!
I don't dispute that the chart is a good indicator of AVERAGE lean mass vs height at low body fat
But c'mon, this is no different than: height, IQ, speed, reaction time, longevity, etc.
For example, the avg ht of the NBA player would be quite different then the general population.
Strength and muscle mass can be enhanced by drugs but GENETICS is what separates the IFBB pros from Mr Podunk.
This is getting silly:
(http://www.bodybuildingleague.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/kevin-levrone-gear-nutra-booth-2013-mr-olympia-expo-620x413.jpg?2708ce)
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max weight 194, lean was 182.
but yeah, chuck looks pretty lean here, and thats on fight day even a day after weigh-inns. you reckon he is 30 pounds or more from being lean here?
This is a good example of 205 vs 185:
(http://i.imgur.com/hY06tOv.jpg)
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don't forget to add 100lbs for get biggers
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Thin Lizzy destroying the naysayers with knowledge.
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This is a good example of 205 vs 185:
leaner to the left
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there is alot of genetic variation in humans. This chart is for the average genetics. A mesomorph can get abit heavier.
he probably made this chart based on his own progress. with average genetics for size.
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Drug-Free, Natural, Genetic Limit. End of thread. :D
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50f8cc5de4b0a0c4aab51365/t/5459dfbce4b06a5e573f9959/1415176125231/Screen+Shot+2014-11-05+at+3.27.31+AM.png)
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Drug-Free, Natural, Genetic Limit. End of thread. :D
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50f8cc5de4b0a0c4aab51365/t/5459dfbce4b06a5e573f9959/1415176125231/Screen+Shot+2014-11-05+at+3.27.31+AM.png)
hahaha
ALL drugs and filt lies
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Drug-Free, Natural, Genetic Limit. End of thread. :D
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50f8cc5de4b0a0c4aab51365/t/5459dfbce4b06a5e573f9959/1415176125231/Screen+Shot+2014-11-05+at+3.27.31+AM.png)
:D
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:D
:D
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there is alot of genetic variation in humans. This chart is for the average genetics. A mesomorph can get abit heavier.
he probably made this chart based on his own progress. with average genetics for size.
Bingo.
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Thin Lizzy destroying the naysayers with knowledge.
Oh brotha... ::)
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Bingo.
Do you really think little Phil Heath has great muscle-building genetics? He would be a buck sixty off the sauce.
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Do you really think little Phil Heath has great muscle-building genetics? He would be a buck sixty off the sauce.
Exactly, Phil Heath fighting in MMA at 185 would be dwarfed by bigger guys at that weight.
Howard,
No one is saying that there aren't genetic variations among people with regard to muscle building, but they're not as great as we'd like to believe. We're talking about a few pounds between average genetics and superior ones.
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Ok, just google info on genetic variation in IQ and look at the standard deviation groupings within a bell curve.
THAT will give you a good idea of my position on human variance and frequency
The variance in height is accounted for.
So that kind of takes care of that. Why would you concern yourself anyways with the 0.01 percent of musculature in either direction? Why not focus on the aggregate of what is possible. That means more than having what is known as an argument around the margins.
Even if there was one person 230 lbs at 4 percent at 5`11 drug free (there isn`t), but lets just say there was. What bearing does that have on the rest of the billions of people on earth? None.
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Everyone's different, that chart is just an assessment of average to poor genetics for bodybuilding.
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:D
fuck uuuuu man adam is sa legend
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Everyone's different, that chart is just an assessment of average to poor genetics for bodybuilding.
What percentage of people have beyond average to poor genetics? ???
Surely you don`t or anyone on this forum for that matter. (naturally speaking)
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I think that chart is more an avg.
I know plenty of lean, ripped looking dues who exceed that chart and play other sports .
As a high school sprinter, I didn't lift and was a lean 178lbs at 5'9".
I agree , Howard post some pics when you used to compete @ 190lbs , 5-6%bf ''lifetime natural ''
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What percentage of people have beyond average to poor genetics? ???
Surely you don`t or anyone on this forum for that matter. (naturally speaking)
For one thing it says I'm 20 pounds over the natural limit. I'd say I have better genetics then those poor devils on the chart there though.
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I'm 20 pounds over the natural limit.
Pics or bullshit
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Drug-Free, Natural, Genetic Limit. End of thread. :D
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50f8cc5de4b0a0c4aab51365/t/5459dfbce4b06a5e573f9959/1415176125231/Screen+Shot+2014-11-05+at+3.27.31+AM.png)
Slim Shady .
WoooSSSHHHHHHHHHH please stand up, please stand up.
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fuck uuuuu man adam is sa legend
Adam is a legendary idiot.
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Drop about 30lbs from those numbers and you're close.
Name one truly natural guy who weighs over 140lbs at 6' when he's ripped
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Adam is a legendary idiot.
Thats what I look like at 235 lbs.
Not bad (certainly not good at all, but not bad. Most would not carry it as well given my height and weight) I would say for lifetime natural at my height.
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Not bad (certainly not good at all, but not bad. Most would not carry it as well given my height and weight) I would say for lifetime natural at my height.
::)
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I would consider Uriah Faber as having well above average genetics; yet, at 5'6", he fights at 135.
(http://roughcopy.com/newcode/images/fighters/urijah-faber-profile.jpg)
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Pics or bullshit
Soon enough
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Soon enough
That's what I thought
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At 5' 11" I was 208 lbs with 7 or 8 % BF. a week before contest so I might have dropped that BF % as I was depleted on contest day ....
I was 100% natty as no creatine,glutamine, amino acids, etc just whey Protein . and food
12 years of heavy training before first contest.
No posting pictures, cause If I look like I'm claiming I was, people would say I was on the juice anyway.
WoooSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH BE yE KE
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At 5' 11" I was 208 lbs with 7 or 8 % BF.
No posting pictures,
What a shocker .
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That's what I thought
5' 11" 185 isn't crazy. ::)
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5' 11" 185 isn't crazy. ::)
I believe you bro , 5'11'' ,185 lbs , 5% BF lifetime natural , pretty impressive if you ask me , I just want to see some pics.
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I believe you bro , 5'11'' ,185 lbs , 5% BF lifetime natural , pretty impressive if you ask me , I just want to see some pics.
Not gonna happen. lololol
Nobody on this forum is or has ever been that.
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"Guys here just can't accept how light they would be truly lean and natty."
- this
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Not gonna happen. lololol
Nobody on this forum is or has ever been that.
I don't know man ,maybe ''The Shape'' is Robert Gibbs , a lifetime natural that competes in Musclemania @ 5'11'' 185lbs 5% BF
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G_hph8KpijM/UtS9L81iyPI/AAAAAAAAR9A/2-KQ08GNhI0/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(1).jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Huh3iWJaPh4/UtS9MJceWjI/AAAAAAAAR9I/NXf9zbXzOZE/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(2).jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tfSlPr6NnjM/UtS9MgISa2I/AAAAAAAAR9Q/0DSwxflGGS8/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(5).jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRm4m-6YwkQb3wuiDzG9_h2GknHvg0NIAPqlpRkbY9T3vxhwTbtVg)
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Generalized charts like this are IMO pointless, as mentioned there are drug free genetic anomalies which exceed this. And just because someone fits within that HEIGHT/WEIGHT chart does not mean they are "Natural" either – so what’s is the point? Besides setting limitations (like Rodger Bannister and the 4 minute mile) and making some drug free bodybuilders feel better about their genetics...
At the Classic bodybuilding world champs they use a similar height weight ratio..
Most of these guys are all below 5% bf and dehydrate in to make weight, Most of them would fit in Martins chart of what is possible drug free. The chart does NOT mean they are "natural" by any means! (See attached link of the weigh-in)
http://www.eastlabs.sk/en/photo-gallery/2014-world-classic-bodybuilding-championships-alicante/2014-world-classic-alicante-weight-in?vp-page=2
Just as the BMI is a crap indicator of whether someone is fat or not -most bb'ers would be deemed obese using the BMI index chart...
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I'm 6ft.2 and I would need to be 165 to be 5% bodyfat.. I can tell this from my last diet, So I guess I have 15lbs of muscle left to gain. To be honest I don't train legs with much enthusiasm because of all the running I do so I guess that is where I still have most room for development...
But this is the only example you need of the true natural limit without those complicated formulas. If anyone claims they are a genetic freak and that is how they are bigger than Sandow then they are fucking LIARS keeping their "genetics" in their fridges, Sandow was a genetic freak of his time and eat a diet very high in good meat and trained like a beast. You also have people who say that Sandow is half the size of them due to his "old training and dieting methods". LOL Eating shit loads of meat and lifting heavy weight long enough will bring you to your natural limit even if it's not 100% efficient, just because Sandow didn't have whey proteins, creatine and hammer strength machines people think he was not at his limit LOL.
(http://www.ordinary-joe-muscle-building.com/images/mighty-sandow.jpg)
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i wonder what sandow would have looked like if bench press was around back then...
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Totally 100% natural is food only, no supps!
food is more anabolic anyway so perhaps only those who dont eat are natural.
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food is more anabolic anyway so perhaps only those who dont eat are natural.
whey protein is actual food you know that right? and it's a better source of protein than any meat source.
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true, but I was age 16-17 and didn't lift or know what a steroid was then, so wtf.
I'm no freak but competed in drug tested shows at 5% fat and around 193 lbs at 5' 9 1/2"
That goofy chart says I max at 155-160 lbs LOL.
I couldn't get that light unless I starved myself for weeks and chopped my leg off LOL
Does anyone here really think a genetic freak like 5"11" Ronnie Coleman needed drugs to be
heavier then 165-170 lbs with 5% body fat.
This kind of chart reminds me of those goofy positive self esteem ht/wt /frame charts for chunky girls.
Sure u were ::) 5% at 193 natural and at 5'9 yeah better genetics than levrone haha
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whey protein is actual food you know that right? and it's a better source of protein than any meat source.
so they like to tell you, would rather a sirloin steak or some wild salmon over a whey shake any day.
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so they like to tell you, would rather a sirloin steak or some wild salmon over a whey shake any day.
Science trumps your gym gossip sorry pal. The Whey shake would be a better source of protein than steak or salmon, this is scientifically proven by government bodies. Beefs Biological Value is 79 and whey is 100+...
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bleh bleh I have science backing me bleh bleh
Most protein powders have some form of artificial sweetener in them.
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Sure u were ::) 5% at 193 natural and at 5'9 yeah better genetics than levrone haha
Zane, at the same height, competed at 185. So, Howard, natty at 5%, was heavier than Zane juiced.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/07/laughter.gif)
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bleh bleh I have science backing me bleh bleh
Most protein powders have some form of artificial sweetener in them.
The artificial sweeteners in the protein powders are nothing compared to the growth inducing drugs and antibiotics given to the cows and chickens which turn into the steaks and chicken breasts you consume.
the only tests which showed toxicity from aspartame are where a totally gigantic amount was given to rats which would be impossible to get unless you drank several gallons of diet coke a day, anything is toxic in high enough dosages.
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Marc Perry's graph seems quite accurate, at least from my experience. I used to be a 270lb perma bulker at 6'2ft but ended up around 185lbs when I dieted down. Even at 185, I was merely just "lean" so still a fair few digits off contest condition.
There are probably some guys who can suppress the stats given but I think we will be looking at just a few extra lbs rather than anything major.
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I don't know man ,maybe ''The Shape'' is Robert Gibbs , a lifetime natural that competes in Musclemania @ 5'11'' 185lbs 5% BF
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G_hph8KpijM/UtS9L81iyPI/AAAAAAAAR9A/2-KQ08GNhI0/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(1).jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Huh3iWJaPh4/UtS9MJceWjI/AAAAAAAAR9I/NXf9zbXzOZE/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(2).jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tfSlPr6NnjM/UtS9MgISa2I/AAAAAAAAR9Q/0DSwxflGGS8/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(5).jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRm4m-6YwkQb3wuiDzG9_h2GknHvg0NIAPqlpRkbY9T3vxhwTbtVg)
holy crap last 2 pics look like a ifbb pro small version beyeke..
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Seems about right to be honest..At least for me
x2
How is your training going these days G4It?
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I don't know man ,maybe ''The Shape'' is Robert Gibbs , a lifetime natural that competes in Musclemania @ 5'11'' 185lbs 5% BF
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G_hph8KpijM/UtS9L81iyPI/AAAAAAAAR9A/2-KQ08GNhI0/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(1).jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Huh3iWJaPh4/UtS9MJceWjI/AAAAAAAAR9I/NXf9zbXzOZE/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(2).jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tfSlPr6NnjM/UtS9MgISa2I/AAAAAAAAR9Q/0DSwxflGGS8/s1600/Robert+Gibbs+(5).jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRm4m-6YwkQb3wuiDzG9_h2GknHvg0NIAPqlpRkbY9T3vxhwTbtVg)
And you know he's natural how? Because he said so? Oh, ok.
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Zane was a great Bodybuilder. him and Serge are 2 of my Favourites.
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And you know he's natural how? Because he said so? Oh, ok.
Because he's Flex Wheeler's half brother ;D
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x2
How is your training going these days G4It?
hey man, going well, Team Upright rows! Honestly regarding this topic, I don't think people understand how lean you have to be at a true 5% bf.
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Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.
Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)
50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only 20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall
Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller
A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.
Now let's assume that muscle growth on lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.
Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.
1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or more ?
The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.
That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.
I agree that there will be people out there who will suppress these figures but I just don’t see anyone doing so by any significant amount. I live in London and the gym I attend is full of West African dudes, some with first class physical genetics. However, even these guys I think will fall within a similar range if they were in contest shape. Being able to maintain mass at such low body fat is incredibly tough to do as a natural.
I felt like I had withered away at around 8/9%. I’d probably look like a famine victim at 5%. :D
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Marc Perry's graph seems quite accurate, at least from my experience. I used to be a 270lb perma bulker at 6'2ft but ended up around 185lbs when I dieted down. Even at 185, I was merely just "lean" so still a fair few digits off contest condition.
There are probably some guys who can suppress the stats given but I think we will be looking at just a few extra lbs rather than anything major.
There was recently a show on ESPN about retired NFL players who were struggling with weight gain.
One guy who had played at 300, decided to diet down and compete in a men's fitness show. His weight for the show was 220, without even being ripped, and this guy was a big boned 6'5".
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bodybuilding isnt about numbers.
its not about height, weight, measurements, reach or percentage of bodyfat.
now if we would talk about fighting then at least reach and weight would come into the picture, but the problem there isnt getting lean, it's being able to fight for 15 or 25 minutes being lean (as oppose to bodybuilders who can hardly walk up on stage)
(http://mma-paradise.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/donald-cerrone-4_crop_340x234.jpg)
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bodybuilding isnt about numbers.
its not about height, weight, measurements, reach or percentage of bodyfat.
now if we would talk about fighting then at least reach and weight would come into the picture, but the problem there isnt getting lean, it's being able to fight for 15 or 25 minutes being lean (as oppose to bodybuilders who can hardly walk up on stage)
(http://mma-paradise.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/donald-cerrone-4_crop_340x234.jpg)
MMA fighters are a good sample group because they're trying to be big, for their weight. So, you see what a big 185 pound man looks like.
Case in point, Uriah Hall @6', 185.
(https://usatmmajunkie.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/uriah-hall-ufc-168.jpg)
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MMA fighters are a good sample group because they're trying to be big, for their weight. So, you see what a big 185 pound man looks like.
Case in point, Uriah Hall @6', 185.
(https://usatmmajunkie.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/uriah-hall-ufc-168.jpg)
it's not a good example because they don't train specifically for hypertrophy and size...
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it's not a good example because they don't train specifically for hypertrophy and size...
C'mon, without steroids, how much more muscle can he put on, without also adding fat?
The harsh reality is that training natty you can add a few pounds of lean muscle and that's it.
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this guy has the same height and fights in the same weightclass as uriah hall
they look identical!!
(http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/marquardt-mf-cover.jpg)
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Back in bodybuilding days i was 230...240 at 6 ' 1/2
Today i am 180 and would have to loose 5-10 Pounds more to be close to Contest shape
So i can Tell you, the Formulas are Quite accurate
Honestly this thread Shows how few obviously ever tried the natural way themselves
For the most Part members of two groups here
50 percent on drugs, most of them liars
50 percent newbies Dreaming of a Great natural body and listening to the liars
Weak up,
Most Men have not the genetics to Look like Brad Pitt, Christiano Ronaldo or Daniel Craig if trying without peds
And they don t too ;)
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Back in bodybuilding days i was 230...240 at 6 ' 1/2
Today i am 180 and would have to loose 5-10 Pounds more to be close to Contest shape
So i can Tell you, the Formulas are Quite accurate
Honestly this thread Shows how few obviously ever tried the natural way themselves
For the most Part members of two groups here
50 percent on drugs, most of them liars
50 percent newbies Dreaming of a Great natural body and listening to the liars
Weak up,
Most Men have not the genetics to Look like Brad Pitt, Christiano Ronaldo or Daniel Craig if trying without peds
And they don t too ;)
Big time LOL@ needing gear to look like those guys...
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I knew a naturally hot girl who used to train at my gym.
She didn't need make up or fancy clothes to look VERY sexy.
Same with men and muscle mass.
99.9% of men won't be able to get that big without drugs
BUT, 1 out of 1000 will. Basic stats and human distributions.
ya sayin' those guys were on gear? No way man. They all wear small or medium shirts. Let's not forget that. They just got lean, with a tiny bit of muscle.
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There was recently a show on ESPN about retired NFL players who were struggling with weight gain.
One guy who had played at 300, decided to diet down and compete in a men's fitness show. His weight for the show was 220, without even being ripped, and this guy was a big boned 6'5".
I think many just don't realize how small they will end up looking in contest condition. Most naturals who claim impressive stats are fatter than they think so are deluded in believing how much weight they need to lose in order to obtain that sort of condition.
It exists among juicers too. Didn't Cswole think he would be 250lbs or something similar on stage? :D
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can i swap steroids with wearing smaller tshirts for the same effect with the ladies ???
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Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.
Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)
50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only 20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall
Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller
A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.
Now let's assume that muscle growth on lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.
Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.
1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or more ?
The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.
That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.
You start by supposing the distribution of attribute A is similar to the distribution of attribute B. By the end of your post, you're taking it for granted.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Why do you believe it is, in this case?
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You start by supposing the distribution of attribute A is similar to the distribution of attribute B. By the end of your post, you're taking it for granted.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Why do you believe it is, in this case?
He made the same assumption using IQ, as though the differences in IQ among people of the same height are exactly the same as that for muscle capacity.
Moreover, even if they are, it's not that big of a difference. If a person has the capacity to put on say 6 lbs of muscle, and another has a 50% greater capacity, it's only three pounds.
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I thought of that but figured my assumption was reasonable?
Ok back in high school I was around 177 lbs at a lean 5'9" age 17.
I was a football player and track sprinter and being the 1970's I didn't lift wts. in high school.
Being realistic, I was likely around 10-11% bodyfat then.
Let's say I wanted to be 5% body fat by age 18, so I slowly lost 10-11 lbs.
That means I would be 166 lbs and 5% at age 18 BEFORE I even started lifting.
You guys mean to tell me I couldn't gain 25 lbs of muscle from age 18-27 and compete drug free at 191 lbs?
I don't think that's freakish or impossible. C'mon. ::)
Break it down for us, Howard. How many pounds of muscle did you put on your delts? Your pecs? Your calves etc.?
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lots of quitters in this thread talking about limits.
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true, but I was age 16-17 and didn't lift or know what a steroid was then, so wtf.
I'm no freak but competed in drug tested shows at 5% fat and around 193 lbs at 5' 9 1/2"
That goofy chart says I max at 155-160 lbs LOL.
I couldn't get that light unless I starved myself for weeks and chopped my leg off LOL
Does anyone here really think a genetic freak like 5"11" Ronnie Coleman needed drugs to be
heavier then 165-170 lbs with 5% body fat.
This kind of chart reminds me of those goofy positive self esteem ht/wt /frame charts for chunky girls.
The results are probably based around a Gaussian bell curve, since these forms of research rarely has enough data points to provide sufficiently accurate tail distribution behaviour. Ronald Dean Coleman would probably lie somewhere to the farthest right.
The numbers presented are probably just the Gaussian mean and extrapolated from a few data points.
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There's a huge difference between being skinny and being lean..
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How do u get lean without getting skinny?
I've been skinny at 150 and been ripped muscular at 150 theres a big difference
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Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.
Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)
50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only 20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall
Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller
A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.
Now let's assume that muscle growth on lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.
Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.
1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or more ?
The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.
That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.
And you are putting forth the false notion that somehow abnormal height frequency will mirror the frequency of muscle building genetics. I don`t see how that makes any sense at all. Its not a one for one game. Just like with genetic disease. Why didn`t you equate genetic muscle frequency with instances of Male Breast Carcinoma or Malignant fibrous histiocytoma? Why choose height? Just curious because it does not make any sense whatsoever.
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You start by supposing the distribution of attribute A is similar to the distribution of attribute B. By the end of your post, you're taking it for granted.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Why do you believe it is, in this case?
EXACTLY what I pointed out!!!!
Awesome observation my friend!
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I understand and agree. My point is what were the differences in your diet and cardio between being lean and muscular and lean and skinny.
I used to do waaayy to much high intensity cardio it was making me lose muscle for sure.
I`d say just run one mile a day. That is the perfect distance to burn stored fat with VO2 Max. Run hard and as fast as you can for that mile. Do this everyday. First, get to around 10-12 percent bodyfat though. 2 miles could work too, but its not necessary. Cardio is not entirely necessary of course, but it is great for your heart and does push you into more fat burning from trouble areas-stored areas.
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I understand and agree. My point is what were the differences in your diet and cardio between being lean and muscular and lean and skinny.
I used to do waaayy to much high intensity cardio it was making me lose muscle for sure.
a lot of different factors, muscle maturity for one, lower intensity cardio (am long duration) between 110-130 heart, hit cardio post workout (short duration), higher fats (I was always scared of fats), keeping training sessions to 45-60 min tops...thats just off the top of my head
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a lot of different factors, muscle maturity for one, lower intensity cardio (am long duration) between 110-130 heart, hit cardio post workout (short duration), higher fats (I was always scared of fats), keeping training sessions to 45-60 min tops...thats just off the top of my head
Very good idea to do cardio after working out. Best time to run that mile. A mile can be classified as Short duration, high intensity because you should be completing it in 5-10 minute range running all out.
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arnold used to recommend running in his books in the 1970's
maybe he was onto something ???
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Joon,
Why do you treat your legs differently than your other muscle groups.
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Yeah I hear you, I probably train way too long, I just CANNOT EVER seem to get my mind to do low intensity cardio, its like the athlete in me takes overs and just wants to go faster.
This is what I do. What do u think?
Am Cardio Monday to Saturday on empty stomach. (20 min cross trainer, fast as possible, heart rate will generally be 160 +) + 5-10 mins skipping varations, 15-20mins boxing bag + shadow boxing.
Evening I come do weights, usually about hour and half.
Back + Chest,
Shoulder + Arms,
rest.
Back + Chest,
Shoulders + Arms,
legs,
Rest
Eat between 1500-1800 calories, about 200g Protein, 100-150g carbs rest fat.
But I am gonna start Keto soon and cut back on cardio.
Whats your height/weight? How the hell do you train back and chest together? Both are big body parts, im usually cashed after I train back. Low intensity cardio on the stair climber, usually 60 min sometimes up to 90. My post workout hit cardio is either running or swimming. .but I prefer swimming 30 min. Whats your goal?
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Cracks me up nobody even noticed the hot babe's ass in the upper right corner, as all eyes were on the shirtless dude with hammer LOL.
getbig, gotta love it.
and nobody noticed that he's not 5% bf
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I am proof of what is possible if you want it bad enough.
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holy crap last 2 pics look like a ifbb pro small version beyeke..
none of the musclemania filt liars are natural
ade rai another liar
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i train chest and back together it's really easy:
3 sets of pushups
3 sets of pullups
since ive already maxed out genetically (according to this thread), i cannot grow any more unless i take steroids so why push it when all i can do is maintain what ive got ?
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With Howard and gamechanger on this. 80% of doubters can be eliminated because they don't train, eat, sleep like a champ... also don't have the mindset, knowledge or discipline to defy that chart. How many train year round?... I always hear how they "took a year off".... "it's been off and on".. "I got really busy, but I plan on getting back into it sometime".... all wrong answers. It's far from easy, that's why only 5% actually succeed. My history for the backlash to come.... 48 yrs old...always natural (too stubborn and hate crutches or help).. training continuously since 16. Only time away from actual (or facsimile of) weight equipment was Desert Storm & Shield, USMC... but a few of us still did pull ups, pushups, and seabag squats. Did a few contests, last one in 1995, won @ 5'11 and 201 lbs... was 6-7%... less @ previous contests but looked a little flat. A lot fuller and thicker at higher BF while still maintaining good definition. I will try to scrounge pic for doubters, if I can't dig one up, will just take a current one... 202 and probably 12%.... not professionally measured for you doubters, but good enough for me. Not a meltdown by any stretch. Ciao
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Ok, just for the sake of debate let's say the lean mass and ht chart TA posted is a good working average.
Now let's look at height distributions within the world population.
( I'll use rounded numbers for the purpose of illustration)
50% of the men fall between 5'9" and 5'10"
Only 20% are 6 ft or taller. Or 80% are 5' 11.9" and under 6 ft tall
Only 2% are 6' 4" or taller
A very small fraction of a % are 7 ft or taller.
Now let's assume that muscle growth on lean healthy males will have a similar distribution to other physical characteristic , like ht.
Aprox 50% of the males who get ultra lean, 5% body fat will be 5'9" and around 160-165 lbs.
1.the top 20% would be able to be same ht and fat% but achieve 175-180 lbs of body wt.
2.the top 10% could get to 190lbs, top 2% 195 lbs, top 1% 200 lbs.
3.the top 0.000001 % elite freak could be 210 ripped or more ?
The TA posted chart is fine for an avg, but it assumes every male will be within the same standard deviation values for ht and lean mass.
That posted chart ignores basic statistical distributions that will occur within any population.
So you are saying when it comes to muscle development you are a genetic freak (top 2 % in the world ) right ? please explain why (even on HRT ) you look like an obese mongoloid retarded piece of shit .
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With Howard and gamechanger on this. 80% of doubters can be eliminated because they don't train, eat, sleep like a champ... also don't have the mindset, knowledge or discipline to defy that chart. How many train year round?... I always hear how they "took a year off".... "it's been off and on".. "I got really busy, but I plan on getting back into it sometime".... all wrong answers. It's far from easy, that's why only 5% actually succeed. My history for the backlash to come.... 48 yrs old...always natural (too stubborn and hate crutches or help).. training continuously since 16. Only time away from actual (or facsimile of) weight equipment was Desert Storm & Shield, USMC... but a few of us still did pull ups, pushups, and seabag squats. Did a few contests, last one in 1995, won @ 5'11 and 201 lbs... was 6-7%... less @ previous contests but looked a little flat. A lot fuller and thicker at higher BF while still maintaining good definition. I will try to scrounge pic for doubters, if I can't dig one up, will just take a current one... 202 and probably 12%.... not professionally measured for you doubters, but good enough for me. Not a meltdown by any stretch. Ciao
Why do you look like shit though? The chart mocks you. Look at your fat body.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/lilredducati/newestbbuild_zps86f2d385.jpg)
PS. I have trained for 17 years now, with about a week off, once or twice a year. I get all the sleep I want, nothing holds me back and the chart fits me well.
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im kinda curious why all you guys who reached your limit of 160 pounds are still training so much ??? you must've reached your limit within the first few years and then no progress for years and years and years ???
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Why do you look like shit though? The chart mocks you. Look at your fat body.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/lilredducati/newestbbuild_zps86f2d385.jpg)
PS. I have trained for 17 years now, with about a week off, once or twice a year. I get all the sleep I want, nothing holds me back and the chart fits me well.
My guess , 3-4 % BF in that pic.
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im kinda curious why all you guys who reached your limit of 160 pounds are still training so much ??? you must've reached your limit within the first few years and then no progress for years and years and years ???
Does training stop being good for you healthwise once you reach your limits? ???
Any evidence of this?
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im kinda curious why all you guys who reached your limit of 160 pounds are still training so much ??? you must've reached your limit within the first few years and then no progress for years and years and years ???
You must be a beast ,Thegamechanger .
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Ridicule me all you want, I've always been open and candid about my bodybuilding drug use.
I stopped using drugs in 1987 and competed from 1992-95 without drugs at a ripped 190-193 lbs.
I wasn't a lifetime natural , but I was off for several years when I competed at those wts.
Plenty of 5'9" inch bodybuilders have competed around 190-195 lbs and 5% body fat like me.
Only 0.000001% every looked close to Zane. His muscle shape and classic lines is what made him great.
Yes a average white guy better genetics natural than a Levrone and wheeler ::)
5 % at 5'9 natural at 195 hahaha
Where are all these natural 195 at 5'9, 5% u speak of??
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lol @ trying to poke the bear... that pic is from last year. Was about 210... not claiming shredded... I'll get a recent pic for all the homos to flail their meat to :-*
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Yes a average white guy better genetics natural than a Levrone and wheeler ::)
5 % at 5'9 natural at 195 hahaha
Where are all these natural 195 at 5'9, 5% u speak of??
Training in that same gym where a 315 lb bench for 12 is a warmup and 405 is a light day.
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Where are all these natural 195 at 5'9, 5% u speak of??
(http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/pictures2/2010SoCal_10.jpg)
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(http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/pictures2/2010SoCal_10.jpg)
Very impressive!
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Training in that same gym where a 315 lb bench for 12 is a warmup and 405 is a light day.
And a 9" dick is average :D
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(http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/pictures2/2010SoCal_10.jpg)
Natty, that dude? Yikes....
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And a 9" dick is average :D
On getbig it is unless u are thick nick
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Natty, that dude? Yikes....
::)
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I must have imagined I did this in an alternate universe.
Thanks for bringing me back to getbig reality. ;D
Please invent a time machine so I can go back and tell my old self that
I can't compete drug free and ripped at that wt.
I think specifically what he's speaking about is level of hardness with the fullness at that weight ,it would take decades of bulking/dieting extreme to even maybe get those #'s...and again you know howard drugs work tenfold...
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I must have imagined I did this in an alternate universe.
Thanks for bringing me back to getbig reality. ;D
Please invent a time machine so I can go back and tell my old self that
I can't compete drug free and ripped at that wt.
U can get lean at the weight, that's not the point, the point is u claiming 5% at that weight while drug free, big difference
A 5'9 guy weighing 195 at 5% is very impressive! A natural?? Nope
Are your genetics on par with wheeler? Levrone or Zane? Some of the best in the world as pros
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U can get lean at the weight, that's not the point, the point is u claiming 5% at that weight while drug free, big difference
A 5'9 guy weighing 195 at 5% is very impressive! A natural?? Nope
Are your genetics on par with wheeler? Levrone or Zane? Some of the best in the world as pros
I HEAR YA,,,
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Most twinks will never look like his dude regardless of drug use.
They focus on the drug use because they can take those . BUT they can't change their genetics.
yup.
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::)
I know very well he's not natty man, c'mon, lol!!!!
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I know very well he's not natty man, c'mon, lol!!!!
I know you do. I just like the ::)
It perfectly sums up my reaction to about 75% of the posts here.
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I know you do. I just like the ::)
It perfectly sums up my reaction to about 75% of the posts here.
just 75%?
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just 75%?
OK, maybe 90%.
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OK, maybe 90%.
more like it. Morning fog must have cleared up...
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There are limitations but post like this over exaggeratdo it. You have people who half ass it for years get no results. And now anyone better isnt natty.. before you can say that look at your own training. Chances are you dont give it 100%, probably drink, go out, party, miss gym days, bad nutrition, etc. While you hang out someone is training....
Not on the internet all day..
I know some half ass trainers are going to attack lol...
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Funny how bodybuilders compartmentalize the sport to the point where they train quads and hams on separate days; yet, no one ever does this with regard to muscular weight gain. This is because doing so would expose the truth, and the supplement industry has been built on a pack of lies, the biggest one being that mega dosing protein can increase muscular gains. I literally pissed away a lot of money on that one, myself.
Question:
How much muscular weight can someone expect to add to their deltoids as a result of heavy overhead pressing, alone? 1lb? 5lbs? 10lbs?
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Now, imagine 10lbs of steak. Do you think someone could add that amount of muscle to his body with just weight training?
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how much muscle does a tan and a size small t-shirt add?
add some good lightning (i never go out to bars with bad lightning)
and you get more bang for your buck than any amount of steroids.
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(http://i.imgur.com/n64O7Np.jpg)
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Might as well get it over with:
Guy on the left: Wider than Heath.
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(http://i.imgur.com/n64O7Np.jpg)
weeman got ripped..
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wonder how much he bench, he doesnt have to move the bar too far with those short arms
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wonder how much he bench, he doesnt have to move the bar too far with those short arms
There's a "short person" working out at my gym and he moves about 135 lbs. Considering he weights 45 pounds, that is very impressive.....
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/03/munedyqy.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuilding.com/contest_media/2314/7294/d/img_8452.jpg)
(http://tnation.t-nation.com/forum_images/auto/r/350x0/5/0//50bf3-Michael_Lockett.jpg)
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(http://cs5938.vk.me/v5938911/38d/dP4A0mxZOwk.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b9/09/b0/b909b06ff246fdea65c79b846d5fcf4c.jpg)
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Sorry man, know a guy in high level natty, (lifetime) and surpasses those charts by a mile. But he is not the norm. For most.. The chart is kinda accurate.
yeah i know several.
one of them won mr junior australia back in the 1980s.
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That dude is a genetic anomaly, looking at those hands he must have some form of growth hormone problem.
I remember a youtube clip where he crushes walnuts with his index finger and thumb. :o
Here it is
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There are limitations but post like this over exaggeratdo it. You have people who half ass it for years get no results. And now anyone better isnt natty.. before you can say that look at your own training. Chances are you dont give it 100%, probably drink, go out, party, miss gym days, bad nutrition, etc. While you hang out someone is training....
Not on the internet all day..
I know some half ass trainers are going to attack lol...
I always have trained extremely hard. I give until I can barely breathe. I don`t drink. I don`t party. I haven`t missed any days. My nutrition is perfect and have logged it for years. I can train at any time I want and do.
Yet the chart works for me and I have never seen anyone beat the chart.
Hope this helps.
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"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough."
Mae West
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a
Translation - I now have some scientific proof I have average genetic talent for building lean mass.
With all due respect TA, I think this chart is only good for what the avg guy can do.
Which is exactly the majority of people
Otherwise there would be tons of Arnold's, Ronnie's, wheelers, levrones, but guess what?? There's not
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Arnold was average as a Natural. His children are average.
Both would fit the chart nicely.
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The charts are correct,at lest for 5'7" height.I've been training and strict dieting for many years,competed several times at 5% bf and can't get past these numbers.
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The charts are correct,at lest for 5'7" height.I've been training and strict dieting for many years,competed several times at 5% bf and can't get past these numbers.
yes your god given genetics must be the golden standard then ::) nobody has better genetics for putting on muscle.
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Okay, let's try this again.
Take a 175 guy with 12%bf. Put him on a weight training program and nothing else.
How much muscular weight can he gain without adding fat as well?
The average amount and the elite.
I say between 5-8 lbs. In other words, you're not moving up a weight class naturally without extra bf.
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(http://i.imgur.com/n64O7Np.jpg)
Oh look, it's wee man!
..and some dude with his shirt off.
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Why is it so hard to answer this question?
How much lean muscle can the average guy put on and how much can a gifted guy put on?
We're aware that Ronnie has better muscle genes than the average gym rat, but how much?
How much faster in the 100m dash is Usain Bolt than the average athletic guy in his prime? 25-30% maybe.
If this is also the case in muscle building than the difference is a few pounds and the chart is correct.
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Why is it so hard to answer this question?
How much lean muscle can the average guy put on and how much can a gifted guy put on?
We're aware that Ronnie has better muscle genes than the average gym rat, but how much?
How much faster in the 100m dash is Usain Bolt than the average athletic guy in his prime? 25-30% maybe.
If this is also the case in muscle building than the difference is a few pounds and the chart is correct.
There can't be any kind of accurate formula for figuring out how big any one guy can get, because there are too many variables to consider. It's much more than just genetics. It's also diet, exercise, rest, mindset, etc. You can have the best genes for bodybuilding (whatever those genes are, as they haven't been scientifically identified), and if your diet sucks, your exercise is stupid, your rest time is inadequate, and mindset nonexistent, then you won't get big in bodybuilding anyway.
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The best sprinters are freaks just like the best bodybuilders.
I don't really know what lean muscle the avg dude can carry.
But neither does anyone else.
I know what I did as a bodybuilder and the pros blow me away so wtf.
Bottom line is that gifted bodybuilders can gain a lot more muscle then you realize.
BB's aren't genetic freaks. They are just guys with naturally good, lean and symmetrical physiques who respond well to gear. That requires having good genes no doubt but certainly nothing freakish.
Genetic freaks are men like Bolt and Phelps, not some oiled up guy posing in a thong. :D
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Why do people keep repeating the myth that Ronnie was so much better naturally. Just a few months ago, with drugs and training and nutrition, his arms shrunk to 16-17 inches. Ronnie is certainly not special unless on a ton of drugs.
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What if Bolt stripped down, oiled up and flexed after he won the 100 m ???
I think we'd all have more respect for him as an athlete if he did. ;)
Here's some hard won advice from an old douchebag.
Don't give much serious thought to the drugged vs natty question.
I did, for years and it drove me crazy and only pissed people off.
Brushing it under the rug and stopping because it makes people feel uncomfortable only stifles debate and does nothing to answer questions. Best not to do any of that on any topic.
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TA, you don't know how much I agree with you on that.
BUT, alas, we are greatly outnumbered and outgunned ( pun intended).
I've always wanted to see drugs out of bodybuilding.
The problem is most bodybuilder types feel the same basic way on the drug issue:
1. Drugs have always been a part of bodybuilding. You can't have bodybuilding without drugs.
2. Without drugs , even the IFBB pros would look like swimmers.
3. Most natural guys will say that any guy bigger/better lies about using drugs.
Question - If most drug free and enhanced guys think : natural always equals sucky body...why would anyone want to get drugs out?
I think the best bodybuilders would still look great with little or no juice.
Of course, I think a classic, ripped body is the ideal.
My opinion is that drugs equal a sucky body. I like the leaner and more angular look than the juiced, not as lean look seen on roiders.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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yes your god given genetics must be the golden standard then ::) nobody has better genetics for putting on muscle.
No one says I have elite genetics.The charts are about the average ones.
It's easy to comment about natural limits when you TREN hard and eat CLEN to GHet huge...Gosh!
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Why do people keep repeating the myth that Ronnie was so much better naturally. Just a few months ago, with drugs and training and nutrition, his arms shrunk to 16-17 inches. Ronnie is certainly not special unless on a ton of drugs.
you can't be serious. Ronnie would take 3 months off training after the O and was still enormous. Ron Harris did a training with him and he was front squating outrageoius weights. He has downsized now but arms still bigger than what you claim.
So what is your point here exactly? You can make good points at times, but are sadly way off here. His size before pro was said to be natty, is that "non special" as you say?
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you can't be serious. Ronnie would take 3 months off training after the O and was still enormous. Ron Harris did a training with him and he was front squating outrageoius weights. He has downsized now but arms still bigger than what you claim.
So what is your point here exactly? You can make good points at times, but are sadly way off here. His size before pro was said to be natty, is that "non special" as you say?
::)
Ronnie Coleman @BigRonColeman
Trying my best to get these 17.2in arms bigger.
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Oh Looky here,
A white Lifetime Natural with bigger arms than a currently loaded drugged Ronnie Coleman.
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::)
Ronnie Coleman @BigRonColeman
Trying my best to get these 17.2in arms bigger.
Well then, guess I was wrong.
So what is your interest in him then? Why are you on his fan page?
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6 Feet at 170
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Oh Looky here,
A white Lifetime Natural with bigger arms than a currently loaded drugged Ronnie Coleman.
Not trolling, but how do you know that these guys are "Lifetime Naturals?"
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Not trolling, but how do you know that these guys are "Lifetime Naturals?"
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Lmao @ natty.
That's EQ or Oxandrolone or Pro-Hormones right there.
6 feet 160s lean is difficult and unobtainable for some most definitely.
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Zach Zeiler does not and has never benched 315. Not even 285.
His squat is around 285 now that he stopped with the heel blocks.
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Its not about weight or height, its about body composition.
You can be 160lb with 145 LBM and loot great
You can be 160lb with 100 LBM and look like sack of shit.
You can tell clearly by the shoulders and how full the muscle bellies are the dude is ON.
One million percent not even 1% doubt in my mind.
Ever single pic u posted and every vid, not one actual real natty builder there.
Just the truth
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I agree. With all the drugs you are on, I don`t think you could be 160 lbs in single digit bodyfat honestly.
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complete twink with shirt on.
Perfect fit this cock muncher is for generation nothingness. Had to stop it at 1:21 mark. I'm floored people send him questions, wow...
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complete twink with shirt on.
Who cares? Is the goal to look like a fat shit with a shirt on like most roiders do?
Look how jealous roider Joon and roider AJ are. They can`t even get their mind around it.
(http://s30.postimg.org/8nda7g0e9/Zach_Zeiler_on_Instagram_Happy_5_Years_to_my_l.jpg)
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At 160lb natty I would be around 7-8% like I was few summers ago. That doesn't mean I would hold as much LBM as the dude in the video for the simple fact that he dieted down on cycle or pro-hormones.
You can tell by the arms in the video, wayyyyy to full and big for a natty, he should be having like 13.5-14 inch arms MAX at that weight and noway that full or hard.
If I had to guess id say he is running anavar only cycle, don't think he is on test.
Bullshit. You can`t even be 160 lbs single digits with roids. Stop with the nonsense. You have never been 160 lbs single digits. I don`t think you have ever tried to get to single digits for one.
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Who cares? Is the goal to look like a fat shit with a shirt on like most roiders do?
Look how jealous roider Joon and roider AJ are. They can`t even get their mind around it.
(http://s30.postimg.org/8nda7g0e9/Zach_Zeiler_on_Instagram_Happy_5_Years_to_my_l.jpg)
Don't wanna sound cocky but I'm not most roiders. I keep rather low body fat year round, but my gear use is modereate. I don't like the big gut either. But it's not the roids that make most the guys you see have big stomachs. It's the food. They become permabulkers and never lose that fat. Anybody over 20lbs from being respectably lean, honestly, never really gets lean..
They look like hell, I agree. But used properly as I do, I'm very sharp at 220, 6 feet tall. Not the biggest or baddest mother fucker but still stand out enough and don't look like a juice head as they head I have is smart enough to play my cards wisely.
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::)
= ZERO muscle growth.
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Look how jealous roider Joon and roider AJ are. They can`t even get their mind around it.
Not so much "jealous" as "curious".
You seem to relish parroting claims of "natural" with no proof whatsoever, so I would say that your objectivity is equally in doubt.
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::)
= ZERO muscle growth.
Better legs and aesthetics than you have I am sure.
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Better legs and aesthetics than you have I am sure.
Huh? - He's a little boy. I repped that weight long before he was born.
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Lmao, think what you want dude, I was 7% BF natty at around 155 two summers ago, I was skinny ripped had 30 inch waist and felt like death.
Every single aspect of my life suffered, from hair loss, to constant fatigue, to not being able to get a hardon to just wanting to sleep all day....I was doing keto and severely carb restricting.
Strength? What strength, haha, I was struggling to curl 8 kilo dumbbells....for what???? Just to be skinny ripped twink who disappeared in clothes???
All to get some compliments in the gym for like whole of 45 minutes while rest of my life suffered....fuck that.
What's the point to look good if u can't even fuck.
Your body shuts down your reproductive system and everything else, its a pointless existence unless you are competing.
I would rather be 200lb @12% anyday than 160lb twin at 7%
There is not such thing as "natural bodybuilding".....just bunch of delusionites buying lies from fake natties.
I don`t believe you. You wouldn`t have this much trouble and struggle getting lean if that were the case, especially now that you are on a boat load of drugs.
Sorry, it just does not add up at all. I would like to see you get lean, but with your inability to focus and stick to a goal and a plan, it just ain't gonna happen.
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Huh? - He's a little boy. I repped that weight long before he was born.
Who gives a shit what you repped. Your bench might be better, but his chest looks better. Curl more? You might be able to, but his arms are much better than yours. Oh well, you get the point.
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lol, id crush his legs without even trying.
I doubt that.
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Come back to me when your boy can squat 400 for 8. :-*
I am "Mr Legs"! ;)
I have done that and my legs aren`t as good as Zach's in my opinion.
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complete twink with shirt on.
At your age, if you're still concerned about how big you look with a shirt on, there's issues there.
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At your age, if you're still concerned about how big you look with a shirt on, there's issues there.
what's wrong with wanting to fill out an xl shirt. Me wanting to lift goes way beyond trying to impress chicks and shit. Those who lose their size, often did so for that, got what they wanted, then quit.
This is pure loser talk from you.
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Strength don't mean shit in aesthetics anyway how many powerlifters u know who's have massive legs yet do they "look good"?
Mine are big and look good but I hate them anyway, hate big legs, wish they were smaller.
Throws off symmetry on my upper body, hardly ever train legs and when I do I don't even go heavy.
Fuck that shit.
I agree with that which is why naturals have much better legs than juicers in my opinion. They are smaller in size and better scaled. Juicers have ugly legs.
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Don't wanna sound cocky but I'm not most roiders. I keep rather low body fat year round, but my gear use is modereate. I don't like the big gut either. But it's not the roids that make most the guys you see have big stomachs. It's the food. They become permabulkers and never lose that fat. Anybody over 20lbs from being respectably lean, honestly, never really gets lean..
They look like hell, I agree. But used properly as I do, I'm very sharp at 220, 6 feet tall. Not the biggest or baddest mother fucker but still stand out enough and don't look like a juice head as they head I have is smart enough to play my cards wisely.
It's not just food, it's a combo of food and insulin
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I know a young guy who took close to two grams precontest to compete at the same weight as that Lifetime Natural fella
I believe absolutely no one when it comes to protestations of Lifetime
Nattiness, sadly.
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(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/469936_388343031211614_722369779_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/542031_388332594545991_133593574_n.jpg?oh=54cce5bc6f633644bf886204e83ebf2d&oe=55682AC1)
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(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/182333_388330384546212_927570252_n.jpg?oh=3ffa6bf335fed66f88c9921234cb23bb&oe=555CDFD8)
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It's not just food, it's a combo of food and insulin
The abuse of them.
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gK5AiPERUY8/TmjrExsYIoI/AAAAAAAAAC4/hFDFGdhMLh4/s1600/Thierre+di+Castro+Garrito+%25281%2529.jpg)
(http://www.source.ba/galerije/slike/Thierre%20Di%20Castro%208.jpg)
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(http://www.malecelebnews.com/wp-content/images/2012/03/Thierre-Di-Castro-in-Shameless-Episode-2x11-04.jpg)
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On cycle!
Not even close.
He is 6'3 at 167
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He has come off here for about 3-4 weeks to pass test, month or more he will shrivel to nothingness
You have no clue what you are talking about at all.
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I know EXACTLY what I am talking about, you don't get that skin quality that he has when natty, he is billion percent on GH.
::)
You are being a moron.
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This Joon/TA conversation is fascinating. One wonders how long they can keep the mindless volley going.
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(http://img22.mtime.cn/up/2011/03/16/125306.77793830_500.jpg)
(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNDg0MzU4MjAwNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTQ2MjU2OA@@._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg)
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XpRNCSIWnzQ/T9FBlwdiPxI/AAAAAAAAD1Y/7Qm7ZDwwsE4/s1600/IMG_5030.jpg)
(http://elomanagement.com/data/cache/imgs/ec714a53a0b9ee89ad156de431e87643c92905d1_e1202628b8a223b759623d48480d1006121eac65.jpg)
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I am NOT.
You are being very gullible!
You keep associating suspected gear use with weight and height ratios, I already told you its not simple like that and doesn't work the way u think.
You got fat fuck 300lb power lifters who look like sack of shit, who look like junior sumo wrestler running 4g a week and u can never tell they are on gear.
You got fake natty 150lbs twinks running 1g-1.5g who look ripped and hold muscle who u seem to think are natty just cos they are lightweights ::)
Start looking at the quality of the muscle, the fullness, the hardness, the skin quality....only trained eye can tell.....you've said yourself u don't know much about juicing so your not good person to judge this shit.
Out of all the pics and vids u posted today, not one single natty is to be found I can tell 9 times out of ten what compound they even running.
So far all I see is anavar, winny, low dose tren, EQ and GH
::)
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:-*
Joon,
You should set a date and time frame to get to 5 percent bodyfat. I think you can do it and I am curious to see how it ends up. Are you up for it? I am going to Auschwitz levels shortly as well. I am about 169 right now and will go to about 155-160. Where are you at right now?
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This Joon/TA conversation is fascinating. One wonders how long they can keep the mindless volley going.
X2, at this point this thread makes me want to put a plunger in my ass
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I think its great idea. I've put on alot of muscle since last year and upped my doses quite a bit etc.
Right now I am around 215lb, BF 17-20%, 18 inch guns unpumped.
I wanna peak by June/July time for the summer.
I think 5% is crazy low for me.
I am still trying to add more mass, trying to bring up back and chest, traps and forearms. I have no traps it sucks :'(
Not worried about arms, legs or shoulders.
My goal is 200lb at 10% or less.....although I would still be very happy at 190lb, 10%.
I would rather come in heavy as possible at 10-12% tops than totally chiseled at lighter weight cos its not like I competing or anything and wanna look good in clothes too.
You have enough mass. Shift the gear now to lean mode that way you won't have to play catchup. Stop chasing the mass dream. Mass looks awful anyways.
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That chart is a troll, right?
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I agree. With all the drugs you are on, I don`t think you could be 160 lbs in single digit bodyfat honestly.
kid looks very good
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kid looks very good
I like this kid, been watching the other videos he got. Seem pretty clever at that age, havent illusional and fooled by the industri hardcore shit! Look better than 99.9% at the gym!
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If that's you in the pics ,
Holy fuck you are retarded .
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That look like a lean midsection to you?
Guys here just can't accept how light they would be truly lean and natty.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/UFCfan_photos/chuck-liddell-pictures-8.jpg) (http://s246.photobucket.com/user/UFCfan_photos/media/chuck-liddell-pictures-8.jpg.html)
Very true!!! Shiiiit how much weight u loose to be competition ready! People think they are ready when they still have atleast 10kg/22pounds to loose. Most people cant handle getting into real shape because there is nothing of them left. And thats even on roids.
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Looking fwd to seeing an ab shot of you that lean. Could be impressive?
Here's my deal after reading/posting in these recent threads.
1. I'm gonna STFU , finally stick with a damn basic diet, train and drop a bunch of fat over the next 6 months.
2. I'll compete in an over 50 NPC contest and post the pics here on getbig.
I'll post the "cliff notes" of what I did for training and diet. Plus, you folks know I use Androgel for my test levels ,so wtf I'm56 and fat right now .
Let's go for it TA! :D
You will never, ever compete again , because you are a lazy fat fuck that's nothing without drugs.
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Not nearly enough width and horrible calfs.
Not close to classic lines and balance.
He's not competing in a bbing show, who cares. The guy is 6'3, taller than every top bber in the world and doesn't have to look like a walking pharmacy
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(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/469936_388343031211614_722369779_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/542031_388332594545991_133593574_n.jpg?oh=54cce5bc6f633644bf886204e83ebf2d&oe=55682AC1)
Unfortunately mandar is right, this is hgh. I'm constantly around people who take hgh and you see the difference in skin quite obviously. he's also on winstrol and low low test.
The best bodybuilder I Know eats good and trains all year round, off gear he looks like a regular shape guy with big arms who's abs are only obvious when flexed. Less than 10% all year round, but a hgh 8% is totally different from a natty 8%. On hgh muscles pop out from the skin before flexed.
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Unfortunately mandar is right, this is hgh. I'm constantly around people who take hgh and you see the difference in skin quite obviously. he's also on winstrol and low low test.
The best bodybuilder I Know eats good and trains all year round, off gear he looks like a regular shape guy with big arms who's abs are only obvious when flexed. Less than 10% all year round, but a hgh 8% is totally different from a natty 8%. On hgh muscles pop out from the skin before flexed.
good pic of this guy here..skin pressed to lean tissue like that is not natural'condition wise obtainable'without something..
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Doesn't matter to me what he competes in.
He's fit and lean but I'm not that impressed with his physique.
Biggest problem is that he lacks a width and a V taper.
are you suggesting that its not all about weight but also proportions and symmetry ??? :D
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(https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5b/94/09/5b94099dfba6921b4fe9adb7522de453.jpg)
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Unfortunately mandar is right, this is hgh. I'm constantly around people who take hgh and you see the difference in skin quite obviously. he's also on winstrol and low low test.
The best bodybuilder I Know eats good and trains all year round, off gear he looks like a regular shape guy with big arms who's abs are only obvious when flexed. Less than 10% all year round, but a hgh 8% is totally different from a natty 8%. On hgh muscles pop out from the skin before flexed.
This.
Wooosshhhh
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(http://cdn1.images.videobash.com/photos/000/108/573/108573.jpg)
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typical juicehead kid. its shocking the amount of steroids todays kids are using and the dosages back in the day 10 year olds would only do cell-tech and creatine
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Yes, I still judge a physique based on all the key criteria.
Once MPD and bikini became the biggest divisions, I quit judging.
To me, men like Bob Paris and Flex Wheeler were 2 of the greatest physiques ever on an IFBB stage.
This Bob Paris?
And none of the "Retired" stuff. Without drugs, he's a regular guy with a good physique, who can't get his dog to look at the camera ;)
(http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/191803_10150159511697994_1682716_o.jpg)
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I don't think that dog ever juiced. His white fur makes him look thicker naturally.
No shit Sherlock, Bob Paris juiced when he was a pro BB.
I think he had an ideal physique regardless of drugs .
Bob Paris Great Bodybuilder. Looks fit now..
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This is what a normal guy who works out looks like. no one can say his frame hasn't held more muscle than is obtainable naturally And without steroids this is a normal guy. Accept it and be happy with it, he looks healthy.
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This is what a normal guy who works out looks like. no one can say his frame hasn't held more muscle than is obtainable naturally And without steroids this is a normal guy. Accept it and be happy with it, he looks healthy.
I would say he is not training hard at all,eating enough as in bbing terms in yrs,and of course drugs,,he stripped away that look'persona'long ago of course he will just be fit now..
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I don't think that dog ever juiced. His white fur makes him look thicker naturally.
No shit Sherlock, Bob Paris juiced when he was a pro BB.
I think he had an ideal physique regardless of drugs .
(https://www.americarisingpac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/you-cant-handle-the-truth.gif)
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I would say he is not training hard at all,eating enough as in bbing terms in yrs,and of course drugs,,he stripped away that look'persona'long ago of course he will just be fit now..
One of the few bodybuilders that will live past 80 from that era.
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Bone structure and density have a lot to do with it. If you're a rail you'll struggle to put on any muscle mass and when you do you'll look like Iggy Pop.
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One of the few bodybuilders that will live past 80 from that era.
haney should,,,Christian had other drug problems,demey clean living now/healthy.labrada was smart too,mike Quinn tons of other problems..
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On a serious note, I've recently taken a good look at those who compete in NPC over 50, 60 divisions.
The nationals as some decent guys but they look less ripped and freaky then guys in their 40's.
Plus, a lot of the older guys have smaller quads.
In all modesty, if I can stick with the diet, I'm convinced I can kick ass in within my division at a regional contest.
I intend to do just that and let the results speak for themselves.
dude you have old size sitting there waiting to be ripped,,go already,,,,
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Very true!!! Shiiiit how much weight u loose to be competition ready! People think they are ready when they still have atleast 10kg/22pounds to loose. Most people cant handle getting into real shape because there is nothing of them left. And thats even on roids.
The exception, of course, is Getbig, where the average poster has better bodybuilding genetics than Bob Paris. 8)
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On 2nd thought... ???
Eating donuts is fun so wtf. Thin Lizzy is right, I'll remain a chubby douche posting shit here on getbig until I croak or the site crashes.
You have a few years on me, but, a worthy goal for guys in our demographic is to look good "for your age."
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The only people whose drug use you can be sure about are those who were around before the drug was invented, and the guy you see in the mirror. For everyone else you are guessing.
It's surprising that True Adonis is so unscientific in his approach to this topic.
And the comments about skin quality are pretty funny too. Always a similar claim, but never any specific details: "you see the difference in skin quite obviously." If the differences are so obvious, then surely you would be able to give a good description of what you're seeing, and those differences should be visible to other people?
"Skin pressed to lean tissue" is not nearly specific enough.
I wonder if you can see these skin differences when only shown a small area of skin (or one muscle and a couple of veins)? Looking at skin alone I honestly doubt you could even tell male from female, let alone one drug effect from another.
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Great post and you bring up some good points.
Imagine trying to enforce a drug testing policy based on what a guy looks like?
TA - I had to disqualify you for a positive drug test.
Dude - What test did you use?
TA - You have skin pressing into the muscle and are above the values listed on the natural maximum chart.
Dude - That's it?
TA - You obviously juice and anyone like me can tell just by looking at you.
Dude- Hmmm, I'm sure a judge in court will agree LOL
:D
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if the guy has too good looking skin he juice, if it's red he juice, if he looks bloated he juice, if he's too shredded he juice, if he got acne he juice etc etc